From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 1 01:56:32 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 00:56:32 -0600 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E479E.2010403@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5d69a065-1f2b-691c-f0c2-b76a27f3b83e@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/31/2016 10:42 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > And of course keyboards and mice have to be cordless ;-) Compromise: Keyboards with cords and tailless mice. From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jun 1 01:38:57 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:38:57 +1000 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0294d139-7da0-874a-be7a-1487117ad0d3@labyrinth.net.au> On 31/05/2016 5:42 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Been rummaging in the garage for stuff I'll be exhibiting in the UK in July > and found this: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LSI1123.JPG > > It's a 4-slot cage containing: > > M7270 11/03 CPU > M7944 4K RAM (x2) > M8027 LP11 > > There's a fault label on the M8027 saying it occasionally drops characters. > Question is, anyone know what it was out of? > > Cheers! > When I worked on DEC gear we used a few 4-slot backplanes from VT130 to use in suitcase portable test units, so could be this. Lionel. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 1 02:12:30 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 08:12:30 +0100 Subject: DEC modules in a 4-slot backplane In-Reply-To: <0294d139-7da0-874a-be7a-1487117ad0d3@labyrinth.net.au> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 07:38, "Lionel Johnson" wrote: >> M7270 11/03 CPU >> M7944 4K RAM (x2) >> M8027 LP11 >> >> There's a fault label on the M8027 saying it occasionally drops characters. >> Question is, anyone know what it was out of? >> >> Cheers! >> > When I worked on DEC gear we used a few 4-slot backplanes from VT130 > > to use in suitcase portable test units, so could be this. This was my first thought but the VT103 (I assume you meant this) has a double-height card cage in it. The VT103 is another of my should've-picked-up-when-given-the-chance-but-didn't things... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jun 1 03:49:45 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:49:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 3-button, serial, RS232 ADB, USB and PS2. I can't recall ever needing > to use or using the middle button a 3-button mouse. How do you paste text then? And there are quite a few applications that use the middle button to scroll the visible layer (e.g. gschem), or to open a link in a new tab (e.g. Opera, Firefox); very comfortable. I definitely need the middle button very often each day. As a side note, I use only "Model M" keyboards even on current PCs (although none of my IBM keyboards are labelled "Model M", but 1391403; can someone please clarify the origin of this designation?), and the good old Logitech M-Series mice (my current office PC has the _serial_ version) Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 05:04:02 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:04:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 01:10, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > On switch on the console display comes up. Whilst it performs the same > > functions as the one in the manual it looks different. > > Hmm. Does it seem like a DEC EPROM, or someone else's? The 11/84 (very > similar CPU) has a 'list' command which lists all the various EPROM's; does > you console emulator provide that? > > > What ever I do by way of setting up devices I can't get it to talk to > > the RX211. > > Try stopping the console emulator and falling into ODT, and seeing if you can > see the RK211's registers from ODT. If not, does the 11/94 have that 'map' > command in the console emulator that the 11/84 does? > > Another thing to try is, if you have some other UNIBUS device, plugging that > in, and seeing if the CPU can 'see' it. > > Noel > Hello Noel Thank you for your kind reply. OK from the beginning. 1. The 11/94 is housed in deep box located in a 42inch cabinet. It uses a KDJ11-E Quad proc. board. 2. Two buses (Q and Uni) are housed in the one box and are linked by a special interface card. 3. Via a pair of flat cables the CPU is linked to an I/O panel at the rear of the cabinet. As well as six nine way D (rs232) and one 25 way D (rs232) sockets there is a set of dip switches to set up the console serial line parameters. There is also a two digit power on self test progress display. 4. On switch on the self test progress display and the LED's on the edge of the CPU card count down from 77 to 04 (normal run mode) 5. Dialog mode is entered as set by the dip switches on the I/O panel. Sometimes it gives the List Boot etc. Hitting any of the choices just drops you into set up mode. Setup does work and you can save the changes. 6. The main problems are that if you try to get it to boot it says no controller to every device except DD and that says no drive. Secondly I cant get it to go into ODT to look at the registers. Comments please Rod Smallwood 1. The PROM appears to be genuine DEC. KDJ11-E Monitor V 1.06 2. I have seen it the mode where it offers List etc but only with VT100 From jsw at ieee.org Wed Jun 1 08:39:02 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:39:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jun 1, 2016, at 5:04 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > OK from the beginning. > > 1. The 11/94 is housed in deep box located in a 42inch cabinet. It uses a KDJ11-E Quad proc. board. > 2. Two buses (Q and Uni) are housed in the one box and are linked by a special interface card. > 3. Via a pair of flat cables the CPU is linked to an I/O panel at the rear of the cabinet. > As well as six nine way D (rs232) and one 25 way D (rs232) sockets there is a set of dip switches to > set up the console serial line parameters. There is also a two digit power on self test progress display. > 4. On switch on the self test progress display and the LED's on the edge of the CPU card count down > from 77 to 04 (normal run mode) > > 5. Dialog mode is entered as set by the dip switches on the I/O panel. Sometimes it gives the List Boot etc. > Hitting any of the choices just drops you into set up mode. Setup does work and you can save the changes. > 6. The main problems are that if you try to get it to boot it says no controller to every device except DD > and that says no drive. Secondly I cant get it to go into ODT to look at the registers. > > Comments please > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > 1. The PROM appears to be genuine DEC. KDJ11-E Monitor V 1.06 > > 2. I have seen it the mode where it offers List etc but only with VT100 > > It would appear that deviced on the Unibus is inaccessible. DD is run off the KDJ11-E serial ports. Have you checked the Unibus supply voltages? KDJ11-T properly seated? Is there a good battery for the TOY clock inserted? Jerry From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 1 08:52:54 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 06:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( > http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they > have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated > keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone > with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. > AFAIK, the key caps that Unicomp sells are the monolithic cap & plunger that their keyboards use, not the two-part keys that the real Model M keyboards use. (For those not aware, the Model M key cap is separate from the plunger - the key cap is _literally_ just a cap on top of a smaller key form that's got the plunger molded in.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jun 1 09:02:47 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:02:47 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 and/or Tek 4132 Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A268@mail.bensene.com> Hello, kind ClassicCMP denizens, I have two old Tektronix workstation machines. One is a Tektronix 4132. It is a pc-sized (a little less tall, a little deeper) unit that uses a National Semiconductor 32016 chip as the CPU. It's got a bunch of cards for RAM expansion, parallel and RS-232 ports. It comes with two built-in RS-232 ports, one of which is for the console terminal. These machines have a slot in them a SCSI (single-ended) drive. Typically they were equipped with Maxtor XT1105 and XT1140 drives. In the front, they have a tape cartridge drive that uses 3m DC300A data cartridges. This drive is equipped with a piggy-backed Adaptec converter that takes the native QIC tape drive format and converts it to a SCSI accessible tape drive. On the bank panel is a 7- segment display that indicates the self-test and diagnostics, and when the OS (UTek) is loaded indicates system activity. These is also a row of DIP-switches that set things like the console baud rate, boot device, and stuff like that. There are two DB-25 serial ports, a GPIB port, an AUI port for 10 Megabit Ethernet, and a port that extended the internal SCSI bus externally. Below the back panel are slots for plugging in options such as RAM and I/O, which included things like full-width RAM cards (2 MB I think was the largest), half-width dual-port async RS-232 serial cards, a half-width parallel interface card, a half-width SCSI interface card (added another SCSI interface to the machine). The machine ran a 4.2-Berkeley variant known as UTek. UTek was installed on the machine by putting a special cartridge in the drive that contained essentially a miniroot filesystem and basic boot code. The configuration switches on the back would be set to force the tape drive as the boot device. The machine would be powered up (the power button was a soft-power switch on the front panel of the machine), and the tape would be read, and options provided via the console terminal to format the drive, set its partition table, and things like that. Then, the mini-root Unix system would be loaded into, and run out of memory. From there, if I remember correctly, there was another cartridge (or perhaps two) that had the full UTek installation on them. The first tape was loaded, and a script run from the mini-root OS that would begin the process of loading UTek onto the hard disk from the tape image, and creating the boot block and all that would be needed to boot up the full UTek environment from the hard disk. When complete, the scripting would ask for things like setting the time and date (the machine had an built-in battery-backed real-time clock/calendar), setting the root password, creating user accounts and groups, and stuff like that. The machine was (for the day) a pretty capable little Unix workstation at a time (the 4132 was announced in August of '85) when Suns were still at Berkeley, and anything else that ran a halfway decent version of BSD was a supermini like a DEC VAX, some of the more powerful PDP 11's, or a Gould PowerNode. The other machine, the Tektronix 4317, was again a Unix workstation-class machine, but this time, was based on the Motorola 68020 CPU, likely because software availability for Motorola 68K-family machine was much higher than that of the National 32016/32032 architecture, and porting things proved to be quite a difficult thing to do. The 4317 was also in a PC-like cabinet, with a QIC-type tape drive on the front. Internally, a SCSI hard disk provided storage, typically a larger one, like a 300Mb drive, from various different manufacturers. The back panel was similar to that on the 6130, though the SCSI connector was more standardized, and there was an option for a framebuffer card that could add on to the CPU that provided graphics capability. BNC connectors for RGB and sync (IIRC...or maybe it was sync-on-green, can't remember) were there, along with a jacks for plugging in a keyboard and mouse. With a color display and keyboard/mouse the machine could run X-windows. The back panel also had RS-232 ports, GPIB, and, if I remember correctly, it had both an AUI and BNC (for thin-net coax) for 10 Megabit Ethernet. It had some slots for expansion options, but I don't remember how they were organized. The CPU board had quite a bit of room for RAM, and I believe a RAM expansion board could pop onto the main board to bring the RAM (without expansion slots) to something like 4 or 5 megabytes. Anyway, the situation is this: I've got a 4132 and a 4317 stashed away in storage. Both machines have had hard disk failures, so OS is gone. I used to have installation media, but alas, the cartridges all suffered failed drive tapes, and they failed in a way where they turned into goo, and without noticing it, I put them in the drives, and the goo turned to tapes into sticky, goopy spaghetti, not to mention making a mess out of the tape drive head, and getting gooey junk all over the capstan and metal tape guides. They weren't salvageable in any way. So...what I'm looking for, after all that (hopefully informative) verbiage, I am wondering if anyone out there may have original UTek distribution media for both the 4132 and 4317 (may also work with the 4319 media), on DC300 or DC600 cartridges that are still viable, or at least if someone out there may have imaged said media somewhere along the way. I figure that with a good drive, I could reconstitute the images such that I could potentially get these two machines running again. I have appropriate SCSI disks that will work with the machines, and both machines seem to pass the in-built diagnostics and get to the point where they want to boot....but, alas, there's nothing to boot. Any help is greatly appreciated. I have had these machines for a long time, and the 4132, I actually built from parts purchased from Tektronix stock when I worked there. I ran it for a long time, until I could get a PC that was a lot faster, and run (sigh) Windows, for very little money. I even still have 8mm backup tapes from the things...but only user data, not full backups of the OS and all. Thanks in advance, -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 1 09:12:08 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >> On May 31, 2016, at 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar >> with my right thumb. I still have a few of the keyboards around. > > Another thing I love about the WASD keyboards. Because the lettering is > molded all the way through the keycap, I can't wear the letters off. > I've had a couple of other compact format Cherry keyboards over the > years that I loved, but I always managed to pound the legend off them > within a year or so. > It's called a "double-shot" key. There's two injection molds used for each key. I strongly suggest that you guys check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/index - there's a ton of great info there including key vendors. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 1 09:18:21 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/31/2016 08:58 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >> Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available these >> days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three button mouse >> from the mid-late 1990s? The sculpted to fit in your hand model? Before >> the scroll wheel abomination had been invented? They were a joy to behold, >> let alone use. >> >> > I still use the Logitech 3-button "stationary mouse", ie. trackball. They > are getting harder to find. > For trackballs, you can't beat the Kensington Trackball: http://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k64325/expert-mouse-wired-trackball (They can be had for less in other places) The ball is roughly the size of a cue ball and it's got a nice feel to it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jun 1 09:27:29 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:27:29 +0200 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: References: <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20160601142729.GB22034@beast.freibergnet.de> geneb wrote: > On Tue, 31 May 2016, Jon Elson wrote: > > > On 05/31/2016 08:58 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >> Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available these > >> days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three button mouse > >> from the mid-late 1990s? The sculpted to fit in your hand model? Before > >> the scroll wheel abomination had been invented? They were a joy to behold, > >> let alone use. > >> > >> > > I still use the Logitech 3-button "stationary mouse", ie. trackball. They > > are getting harder to find. > > > For trackballs, you can't beat the Kensington Trackball: > http://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k64325/expert-mouse-wired-trackball > (They can be had for less in other places) > The ball is roughly the size of a cue ball and it's got a nice feel to it. > > g. > > -- Oh yes, the Logitech Trackman Marble FX can beat it :-) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jun 1 09:34:29 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:34:29 +0200 Subject: vintage computers in active use In-Reply-To: <201605271357.JAA08954@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <596AB4EC-C789-4BD3-A87A-20E6A36B5748@cs.ubc.ca> <20160526191703.GC1022@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527024841.GA63886@beast.freibergnet.de> <20160527093354.GA79068@beast.freibergnet.de> <3eb48272-0ca2-aa5e-c80f-1c8d81bee465@btinternet.com> <201605271357.JAA08954@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160601143429.GC22034@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > I have used the following operating systems: [...] > > Now will somebody explain to me why windows is considered not good. > > There are, of course, almost as many answers to that as there are > people holding that opinion. > > My own answers? > > It's closed source. It appears to put usefulness to users second to > separating them from their money. It appears to be designed for users > who know nothing about computers - and designed to keep them in that > state. It appears to be designed around the model of large companies > producing content which individual consumers consume (as opposed to > peers providing things to one another). It is a monoculture. It > drives the Intel ISA monoculture. By requiring ridiculously > over-specced machines, it encourages the sloppy coder tendency to hide > sins with hardware. It's full of gaping security holes - some by > culture, some by design, some by chance. > > (Yes, I know some of these are easily explainable.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Couldn't have sayed it better, thanks. Besides of that, it is only the german version of the Windows 10 End User Licence Agreement that gives Mikeysoft the righs to do with the users data what ever they want todo? That in conjunction with the agressive update mechanism used ist the main cause why people think it is time now to change to linux. (think thy are right, but don't use linux for myselves, prefer BSDs). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 09:46:34 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:46:34 +0200 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 1 June 2016 at 00:16, Swift Griggs wrote: > I've never > known them to create "clackety" keyboards with mechanical switches But that's the point. This here Extended II has them, as did the Extended I before it. (I have one of them too, but I couldn't find it in my storage unit in London to bring it over here to the Czech Republic.) I think the earlier ones do too, but they, although pleasant to type on, have weird key layouts, especially of the cursor keys. The Extended I & II have a PC-like layout, which minimised the mental effort of switching between my Mac, my PC laptops and my IBM Model-M equipped Raspberry Pi. "Inverted T" FTW! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 09:49:42 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:49:42 +0200 Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1 June 2016 at 10:49, Christian Corti wrote: > > How do you paste text then? And there are quite a few applications that use > the middle button to scroll the visible layer (e.g. gschem), or to open a > link in a new tab (e.g. Opera, Firefox); very comfortable. > I definitely need the middle button very often each day. Exactly. Me too. And on Linux, middle-clicking the title-bar sends the window to the back of the stack, which I find very handy. On Ubuntu, middle-clicking a Launcher icon opens a new blank window for that app, as well as any other windows it may already have open. It's indispensable functionality for me. On the Mac, OTOH, I barely use it except for new browser tabs. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 1 09:58:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:58:59 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 and/or Tek 4132 In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A268@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A268@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <1d525ed3-be84-8996-52de-0fe580974365@bitsavers.org> On 6/1/16 7:02 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Both machines have had hard disk failures, so OS is gone. > At this point it may be worth digging into the drives to see if they can be fixed. I have had bits of a 4132 for a while, and haven't had any luck locating software. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 1 10:04:41 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: <20160601142729.GB22034@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> <20160601142729.GB22034@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>>> >>>> >>> I still use the Logitech 3-button "stationary mouse", ie. trackball. They >>> are getting harder to find. >>> >> For trackballs, you can't beat the Kensington Trackball: >> http://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k64325/expert-mouse-wired-trackball >> (They can be had for less in other places) >> The ball is roughly the size of a cue ball and it's got a nice feel to it. >> >> g. >> >> -- > > Oh yes, the Logitech Trackman Marble FX can beat it :-) > At least the Kensington isn't discontinued. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 10:08:09 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:08:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <71a81b23-8df5-05cd-f503-7d519558162e@btinternet.com> On 01/06/2016 14:39, Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> On Jun 1, 2016, at 5:04 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> OK from the beginning. >> >> 1. The 11/94 is housed in deep box located in a 42inch cabinet. It uses a KDJ11-E Quad proc. board. >> 2. Two buses (Q and Uni) are housed in the one box and are linked by a special interface card. >> 3. Via a pair of flat cables the CPU is linked to an I/O panel at the rear of the cabinet. >> As well as six nine way D (rs232) and one 25 way D (rs232) sockets there is a set of dip switches to >> set up the console serial line parameters. There is also a two digit power on self test progress display. >> 4. On switch on the self test progress display and the LED's on the edge of the CPU card count down >> from 77 to 04 (normal run mode) >> >> 5. Dialog mode is entered as set by the dip switches on the I/O panel. Sometimes it gives the List Boot etc. >> Hitting any of the choices just drops you into set up mode. Setup does work and you can save the changes. >> 6. The main problems are that if you try to get it to boot it says no controller to every device except DD >> and that says no drive. Secondly I cant get it to go into ODT to look at the registers. >> >> Comments please >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> >> >> 1. The PROM appears to be genuine DEC. KDJ11-E Monitor V 1.06 >> >> 2. I have seen it the mode where it offers List etc but only with VT100 >> >> > It would appear that deviced on the Unibus is inaccessible. DD is run off the KDJ11-E serial ports. > > Have you checked the Unibus supply voltages? KDJ11-T properly seated? > Is there a good battery for the TOY clock inserted? TOY battery did need a change. (got to go get one) Would that have caused the problems? Rod From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 1 10:08:27 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:08:27 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 and/or Tek 4132 In-Reply-To: <1d525ed3-be84-8996-52de-0fe580974365@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A268@mail.bensene.com> <1d525ed3-be84-8996-52de-0fe580974365@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7e412614-835d-d6e9-8f4e-599d743760f1@bitsavers.org> I was also wondering if you have any hardware documentation for the 4317. I'm curious how similar it is architecturally to the 4406 On 6/1/16 7:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 6/1/16 7:02 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> Both machines have had hard disk failures, so OS is gone. >> > > At this point it may be worth digging into the drives to see if they can be fixed. > I have had bits of a 4132 for a while, and haven't had any luck locating software. > From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Jun 1 06:53:26 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:53:26 -0400 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160531013914.GA424@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20160531013914.GA424@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <20160601115326.GA29504@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 09:39:14PM -0400, David Gesswein wrote: > I didn't find them in the technical reference but did find a list in the > bios listing. If I read that correctly its interrupt or timers failed. > Should be LED ON OFF OFF. > Scan of bios listing here. Will try to get the tech ref up in a couple days. http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/software/TI_PC/documents/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 1 10:24:13 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:24:13 -0700 Subject: Star install disks In-Reply-To: References: <2070910555.2669959.1464727086142.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2070910555.2669959.1464727086142.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04cbfd65-c1fe-2f8c-8ad6-645dc5be9345@bitsavers.org> On 5/31/16 1:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/31/16 1:38 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > >> Don Maslin had most of them. I sent copies of mine to him and he sent >> copies of his to me. of coarse that a few years ago. >> > > They didn't survive to what was left in the storage locker. I just looked > again at what I read when we got them at CHM (about 900 disks) and they > aren't there. They also weren't on the aardvark system backup from 2002. > > Can you send me copies of what you have? > > also, came across this today I had forgotten about "product factoring" at the end, some machines were saved in the bay area. I have a rather large pile of 8010/8090 boards and four 8090s that another list member saved when he lived in Santa Cruz in the late 90's. -- http://www.jerrypournelle.com/archives2/archives2mail/mail147.html Jerry, I've been chasing a subject around the 'net via web pages and e-mails for a couple of weeks and have had no luck finding what I'm looking for. You're fond of saying that we're now in an era when most every question has an answer, but my answer is probably still locked into a human brain. So I though I'd try the tap at your web site to see if any of your readers are able to help me. For research and personal reasons, I am trying to obtain a functioning Xerox GlobalView system. Now this kind of system is admittedly out of date, but it's far from obsolete. A functioning system can take one of several forms that would be useful to me: a) A functioning 'max-config' 6085 (pref a 6085-2 or a Fuji Xerox model) workstation with a live hard drive. monitor, kbd, and mouse. All the bells and whistles so to speak. b) A complete copy of the GlobalView install media for either WinTel (win32) or Solaris/Sparc. I'd also need a complete set of product factoring numbers (software license keys) for the Xerox software. The above will make 'perfect sense' to many of your readers, I hope that one of them will actually be able to help me out. Considering how influential the Xerox STAR and it's follow-ons were, you'd think that someone, or some company somewhere would be able to help. Or that there would be archival information and possibly materials available from Xerox. Wrong. After exchanging a number of e-mails with current and former Xerox employees, it has become clear to me that Xerox would rather pretend that they didn't "Fumble the Future" and let the Personal Computer revolution slip away from them. Even archives you might normally expect to see at PARC were purged. There are several ex-Xerox employee groups trying to establish a functioning set of workstations and software at museums, but materials, hardware, and software are almost non-existant. And those few who have operable systems are loath to let anyone near to them knowing full well that replacement parts are not to be had. As far as I'm able to deduce, Xerox has (nearly successfully) tried to bury all memory of the STAR. When Xerox 'converted' to MS based networking and commodity-priced personal computers, those "ahead of their time" workstations and software were rather abruptly (one correspondant used the word forcibly) removed from user and engineering desktops and then physically destroyed. Not even put up for employee or surplus sale. Simply Destroyed. Market forces take some of the blame for this as did the need for Xerox to join the late 20th Century. But simple pig-headness on the part of EDS (a contractor to Xerox) and a no-longer-there CIO helpd to kill off the memory and archives of a most remarkable design and software product. Well, rather than (further) rehash the sad, sorry story of Xerox, STAR, the Alto, 8010, 1186, 6085, ViewPoint, and GlobalView, I'll just hope that one of your readers or their company will be able to help me out. Thanks, take it easy, good luck in Hollywood, and keep working on Jannisaries and The Burning Tower. All the best Chuck Kuhlman ckuhlman at mn.rr.com ckuhlman at uswest.net From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 1 10:27:19 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:27:19 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 1:02 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PDP-11/94-E Hi I'm trying to get my 11/94 running. Its a hybrid having both Q and Unibus. The CPU card has a KDJ11-E 18Mhz processor with 4Mb ram and six serial ports plus the console on board. Apart from a voltage monitor card that's all there is in the Qbus section. Between the Q and Unibus sections is a special convertor card (KTJ-11B UNIBUS adapter.) After the KTJ-11B I have one slot with an RX211 8in floppy controller in it. All of the other slots have bus grant cards except the last one that has a terminator card and a MLM card. On switch on the console display comes up. Whilst it performs the same functions as the one in the manual it looks different. What ever I do by way of setting up devices I can't get it to talk to the RX211. it just says No Controller. Ideas anybody? Rod Smallwood --------- I have to do this from memory as all my systems "live" 9 km away ... Both 84 and 94 in that box are very similar. The first 4 (5?) slots are QBUS, the rest is UNIBUS. The slot between the QBUS and UNIBUS is where the converter is supposed to be. In the 84, all memory would go in the QBUS slots, but with the 94, I guess the QBUS slots will be empty, because *all* memory is on-board the 94. However, most right slot (seen from the front) in the QBUS section is a module that, among others, has the system voltages and monitoring. On *that* board are all NPR/NPG (CA1-CB1) "jumpers" for the UNIBUS slots. Actually they are DIP switches. The RX211 must have the NPR/NPG open. Check the documention which DIP switch must be set in the correct position. However, not sure if that would cause the RX211 to be "invisible". Can you check the RX211 in another UNIBUS system? See whether its CSR responds. Also, check the configuration of the RX211. It might be set to a different CSR ... - Henk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 10:24:42 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 15:24:42 +0000 Subject: Beehive B601 terminal Message-ID: I am trying to empty my storage unit back to my house (to save money and becuase I have these old computers to play around with, not to store). One thing I brought home recently is an old (even on this list) CRT terminal. It claims to be a Beehive B601. I have no manuals for it at all. Inside is the CRT (which looks to have a shallower deflection angle than normal, but maybe it's a normal 90 degree one), a PSU (big mains transformer and some kind of hybrid module for the regulator), and 4 boards of logic plugged into a backplane. These are : Comms (all TTL, there is no UART chip that I can spot) Processor (8008 + lots of 1702As. I can only find 16 bytes of RAM (a pair of 7489s) but maybe I am missing something Cursor (yes, an entire PCB with that title -- all TTL again) Display (lots of TTL + a couple of ROMs (presumably character generators) + a couple of rows of 8 pin ICs (MOS shift registers for the display RAM?) and 2 metal cans at the end of them (clock drivers?) One odd feature is that one of the LEDs on the front (there is a column of same next to the screen) is labelled 'Hebrew' and there seem to be hebrew (as well as English) characters on the keycaps. Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone have a service manual for it? -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jun 1 10:35:07 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:35:07 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 and/or Tek 4132 In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A268@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A268@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: 3M cartridges can be either restored or the data read from them, about 15 years ago I took on a project to recover data from about 200 DC-300 cartridges. The key is test and remove/replace the elastomer band before using the cartridge. But if one does get the remains of the band all over the place it just adds to the recovery time. There are two recovery methods, the first is to replace the band. Pretty much find a band from a DC600 or new cartridge. If that does not work one could look into having a band made. Even if it is for a one shot attempt to get the data off the tape. There are (were?) companies that make belts. They grind the ends in a taper then bond the ends together. Another is to jury rig a drive to read from tape but not in the cartridge. This is what I ended up doing. Try to image a real to real tape machine. Again the idea is just to be able to read a tape once to recover the data. Not to re-create a full transport. Your going to need the resources of a small machine shop but depending on the drive your going to sacrifice it not that hard to do. The drive I had was one where the cartridge loaded sideways. or the smaller end in first. You first built/find two servo/tension drives to hold each of the two spools. The servos job was to keep tension on the tape going into and out of the cartridge. The cartridge was modified to spool tape out and in, and to keep tape under tension between the head(s) and the capsin. For servo's I took apart semi-pro 1/4" tape transport that had servo driven tape reels. That machine also got me tape guides and rollers. Another task is removing any band remains from the tape with solvents that will not effect the bond between the tape carrier (plastic) and the magnetic material. It was a long time ago but I remember either isopropyl or ethyl alcohol. On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 7:02 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Hello, kind ClassicCMP denizens, > > I have two old Tektronix workstation machines. > > One is a Tektronix 4132. It is a pc-sized (a little less tall, a little deeper) unit that uses a National Semiconductor 32016 chip as the CPU. It's got a bunch of cards for RAM expansion, parallel and RS-232 ports. It comes with two built-in RS-232 ports, one of which is for the console terminal. These machines have a slot in them a SCSI (single-ended) drive. Typically they were equipped with Maxtor XT1105 and XT1140 drives. In the front, they have a tape cartridge drive that uses 3m DC300A data cartridges. This drive is equipped with a piggy-backed Adaptec converter that takes the native QIC tape drive format and converts it to a SCSI accessible tape drive. On the bank panel is a 7- segment display that indicates the self-test and diagnostics, and when the OS (UTek) is loaded indicates system activity. These is also a row of DIP-switches that set things like the console baud rate, boot device, and stuff like that. There are two DB-25 serial ports, a GPIB port, an AUI port for 10 Megabit Ethernet, and a port that extended the internal SCSI bus externally. Below the back panel are slots for plugging in options such as RAM and I/O, which included things like full-width RAM cards (2 MB I think was the largest), half-width dual-port async RS-232 serial cards, a half-width parallel interface card, a half-width SCSI interface card (added another SCSI interface to the machine). The machine ran a 4.2-Berkeley variant known as UTek. > UTek was installed on the machine by putting a special cartridge in the drive that contained essentially a miniroot filesystem and basic boot code. The configuration switches on the back would be set to force the tape drive as the boot device. The machine would be powered up (the power button was a soft-power switch on the front panel of the machine), and the tape would be read, and options provided via the console terminal to format the drive, set its partition table, and things like that. Then, the mini-root Unix system would be loaded into, and run out of memory. From there, if I remember correctly, there was another cartridge (or perhaps two) that had the full UTek installation on them. The first tape was loaded, and a script run from the mini-root OS that would begin the process of loading UTek onto the hard disk from the tape image, and creating the boot block and all that would be needed to boot up the full UTek environment from the hard disk. When complete, the scripting would ask for things like setting the time and date (the machine had an built-in battery-backed real-time clock/calendar), setting the root password, creating user accounts and groups, and stuff like that. > The machine was (for the day) a pretty capable little Unix workstation at a time (the 4132 was announced in August of '85) when Suns were still at Berkeley, and anything else that ran a halfway decent version of BSD was a supermini like a DEC VAX, some of the more powerful PDP 11's, or a Gould PowerNode. > > The other machine, the Tektronix 4317, was again a Unix workstation-class machine, but this time, was based on the Motorola 68020 CPU, likely because software availability for Motorola 68K-family machine was much higher than that of the National 32016/32032 architecture, and porting things proved to be quite a difficult thing to do. > The 4317 was also in a PC-like cabinet, with a QIC-type tape drive on the front. Internally, a SCSI hard disk provided storage, typically a larger one, like a 300Mb drive, from various different manufacturers. The back panel was similar to that on the 6130, though the SCSI connector was more standardized, and there was an option for a framebuffer card that could add on to the CPU that provided graphics capability. BNC connectors for RGB and sync (IIRC...or maybe it was sync-on-green, can't remember) were there, along with a jacks for plugging in a keyboard and mouse. With a color display and keyboard/mouse the machine could run X-windows. The back panel also had RS-232 ports, GPIB, and, if I remember correctly, it had both an AUI and BNC (for thin-net coax) for 10 Megabit Ethernet. It had some slots for expansion options, but I don't remember how they were organized. The CPU board had quite a bit of room for RAM, and I believe a RAM expansion board could pop onto the main board to bring the RAM (without expansion slots) to something like 4 or 5 megabytes. > > Anyway, the situation is this: > > I've got a 4132 and a 4317 stashed away in storage. Both machines have had hard disk failures, so OS is gone. > I used to have installation media, but alas, the cartridges all suffered failed drive tapes, and they failed in a way where they turned into goo, and without noticing it, I put them in the drives, and the goo turned to tapes into sticky, goopy spaghetti, not to mention making a mess out of the tape drive head, and getting gooey junk all over the capstan and metal tape guides. They weren't salvageable in any way. > > So...what I'm looking for, after all that (hopefully informative) verbiage, I am wondering if anyone out there may have original UTek distribution media for both the 4132 and 4317 (may also work with the 4319 media), on DC300 or DC600 cartridges that are still viable, or at least if someone out there may have imaged said media somewhere along the way. I figure that with a good drive, I could reconstitute the images such that I could potentially get these two machines running again. I have appropriate SCSI disks that will work with the machines, and both machines seem to pass the in-built diagnostics and get to the point where they want to boot....but, alas, there's nothing to boot. > > Any help is greatly appreciated. I have had these machines for a long time, and the 4132, I actually built from parts purchased from Tektronix stock when I worked there. I ran it for a long time, until I could get a PC that was a lot faster, and run (sigh) Windows, for very little money. I even still have 8mm backup tapes from the things...but only user data, not full backups of the OS and all. > > Thanks in advance, > -Rick > > --- > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 1 10:48:42 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:48:42 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> On 06/01/2016 01:49 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > How do you paste text then? And there are quite a few applications > that use the middle button to scroll the visible layer (e.g. gschem), > or to open a link in a new tab (e.g. Opera, Firefox); very > comfortable. I definitely need the middle button very often each > day. I'm keyboard-oriented--Ctrl-V, where I've copied using Ctrl-X or Control-C . > As a side note, I use only "Model M" keyboards even on current PCs > (although none of my IBM keyboards are labelled "Model M", but > 1391403; can someone please clarify the origin of this designation?), > and the good old Logitech M-Series mice (my current office PC has the > _serial_ version) At random, I've flipped over the 4 keyboards nearest me to read thelabel. All say "Model M" along with the plant number. The part and FRU varies; the one I'm typing this on is 1391401 for the part number. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 1 11:06:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 09:06:32 -0700 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <574F0808.4020204@sydex.com> On 06/01/2016 07:18 AM, geneb wrote: > For trackballs, you can't beat the Kensington Trackball: > http://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k64325/expert-mouse-wired-trackball > (They can be had for less in other places) > The ball is roughly the size of a cue ball and it's got a nice feel > to it. I'll venture that the ball in my CH DT225 *is* a standard billiards cue ball. --Chuck From lists at sysop.ca Wed Jun 1 11:11:44 2016 From: lists at sysop.ca (Cody Swanson) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:11:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Macintosh Quadra 840AV Message-ID: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> I managed to pick up a Mac Quadra 840AV yesterday with an apple VGA monitor and Laser Writer II printer for $60 CAD (approximately $5 USD :-) off the local classifieds site. The pram battery had leaked pretty badly but seemed to only drip onto the internal RF shielding. After I cleaned everything up with isopropanol it booted fine off a startup floppy although the hard disk appears to be bad. Like most macs of this vintage it does seem to have leaking surface mount caps so I am going to order the standard tantalum replacements from digikey and recap the mainboard. What is everyone doing for replacement 50 pin SCSI drives in their 90's hardware? Is there a reasonably priced flash based replacement yet? I remember looking into it a few years ago for my Sun IPX and the only solutions I could find seemed to be priced for industrial applications. Also, has anyone had experience with the apple power supplies of this vintage? I'm wondering if it's something I should recap as well? Also, any comments as to which classic mac OS version is best for this era of hardware? I haven't played around with classic macs much, I went right from the Apple IIe to PC's in the early 90's. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 1 11:12:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 09:12:12 -0700 Subject: Beehive B601 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <574F095B.60502@sydex.com> On 06/01/2016 08:24 AM, tony duell wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone > have a service manual for it? Internally, it sounds about the same as the veneered and generated Super Bee from the early-mid 1970s. I don't see any manuals for it on bitsavers, however. --Chuck From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 11:13:34 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:13:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: <574F0808.4020204@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> <574F0808.4020204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > (They can be had for less in other places) > > The ball is roughly the size of a cue ball and it's got a nice feel > > to it. > > I'll venture that the ball in my CH DT225 *is* a standard billiards cue > ball. Eight ball rollin'! http://standalonecomplex.org/theprof/Sorted%20Pictures/Mice/Trackballs/CH%20DT225/Dual%20USB%20DT225s.jpg -Swift From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 1 11:10:54 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:10:54 +0100 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 02:58, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available > these days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three > button mouse from the mid-late 1990s > I suspect most people here still use the middle mouse button on a > regular basis Absolutely, it's indispensable in Unix systems I use, and used a lot in Windoze too. My favourite mouse is a Logitech VX Nano; it has a scroll wheel that can be set to freewheel for very fast scrolling, or set as normal, but very importantly it also has a real middle button just behind the scroll wheel. They're no longer made, but the Logitech MX Anywhere is very similar. I have one VX and four MXs, and my only regret is that there isn't a PS/2 version to use on my SGIs so I need an adapter. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jun 1 11:19:18 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:19:18 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD for 50 pin - was Re: Macintosh Quadra 840AV In-Reply-To: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> References: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: On 2016-06-01 12:11 PM, Cody Swanson wrote: > I managed to pick up a Mac Quadra 840AV yesterday ... > > What is everyone doing for replacement 50 pin SCSI drives in their > 90's hardware? Is there a reasonably priced flash based replacement > yet? I remember looking into it a few years ago for my Sun IPX and > the only solutions I could find seemed to be priced for industrial > applications. SCSI2SD is very reasonably priced: http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD When I bought mine last year, there were a couple of different ebay stores. --Toby > > Also, has anyone had experience with the apple power supplies of this > vintage? ... From tlindner at macmess.org Wed Jun 1 11:19:59 2016 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 09:19:59 -0700 Subject: Macintosh Quadra 840AV In-Reply-To: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> References: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Cody Swanson wrote: > What is everyone doing for replacement 50 pin SCSI drives in their 90's hardware? Is there a reasonably > priced flash based replacement yet? I remember looking into it a few years ago for my Sun IPX and the only > solutions I could find seemed to be priced for industrial applications. My friend Ed, sells this: https://sites.google.com/site/thezippsterzone/scsi2sd While I have not bought one of these products, I have bought others from him (CoCoSDC, and MCX-128, RGB2VGA) and am really happy with the quality and service. zippster278 gmail.com He may, or may not have any left to sell. -- -- tim lindner "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." From jsw at ieee.org Wed Jun 1 11:24:59 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:24:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <71a81b23-8df5-05cd-f503-7d519558162e@btinternet.com> References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <71a81b23-8df5-05cd-f503-7d519558162e@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <1C763AF7-05C9-4256-B397-1E31F4BF762E@ieee.org> > On Jun 1, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > > On 01/06/2016 14:39, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> >>> On Jun 1, 2016, at 5:04 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> >>> OK from the beginning. >>> >>> 1. The 11/94 is housed in deep box located in a 42inch cabinet. It uses a KDJ11-E Quad proc. board. >>> 2. Two buses (Q and Uni) are housed in the one box and are linked by a special interface card. >>> 3. Via a pair of flat cables the CPU is linked to an I/O panel at the rear of the cabinet. >>> As well as six nine way D (rs232) and one 25 way D (rs232) sockets there is a set of dip switches to >>> set up the console serial line parameters. There is also a two digit power on self test progress display. >>> 4. On switch on the self test progress display and the LED's on the edge of the CPU card count down >>> from 77 to 04 (normal run mode) >>> >>> 5. Dialog mode is entered as set by the dip switches on the I/O panel. Sometimes it gives the List Boot etc. >>> Hitting any of the choices just drops you into set up mode. Setup does work and you can save the changes. >>> 6. The main problems are that if you try to get it to boot it says no controller to every device except DD >>> and that says no drive. Secondly I cant get it to go into ODT to look at the registers. >>> >>> Comments please >>> >>> Rod Smallwood >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. The PROM appears to be genuine DEC. KDJ11-E Monitor V 1.06 >>> >>> 2. I have seen it the mode where it offers List etc but only with VT100 >>> >>> >> It would appear that deviced on the Unibus is inaccessible. DD is run off the KDJ11-E serial ports. >> >> Have you checked the Unibus supply voltages? KDJ11-T properly seated? >> Is there a good battery for the TOY clock inserted? > TOY battery did need a change. (got to go get one) > Would that have caused the problems? > Its possible that a low or bad battery may be causing problems if the TOY chip is also was used to store a the bits of the Setup or other internal status. You said the settings are saved, but does this mean they are retained after power has been removed? Best to put in a new battery and rule it out. After looking at EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf documents that the self diagnostics should have checked out the KTJ11?B and cpu throughly, but its not clear it actually checks anything on the Unibus side, other than though the MAP command. Also check out http://www.pdp-11.nl for info on an 11/93 which is basically Qbus only use of the same CPU board. From lists at sysop.ca Wed Jun 1 11:33:01 2016 From: lists at sysop.ca (Cody Swanson) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:33:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: SCSI2SD for 50 pin - was Re: Macintosh Quadra 840AV In-Reply-To: References: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: <1623790578.7396.1464798781649.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Perfect, I will check out the scsi2sd. Thanks for the feedback gents! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2016 10:19:18 AM Subject: SCSI2SD for 50 pin - was Re: Macintosh Quadra 840AV On 2016-06-01 12:11 PM, Cody Swanson wrote: > I managed to pick up a Mac Quadra 840AV yesterday ... > > What is everyone doing for replacement 50 pin SCSI drives in their > 90's hardware? Is there a reasonably priced flash based replacement > yet? I remember looking into it a few years ago for my Sun IPX and > the only solutions I could find seemed to be priced for industrial > applications. SCSI2SD is very reasonably priced: http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD When I bought mine last year, there were a couple of different ebay stores. --Toby > > Also, has anyone had experience with the apple power supplies of this > vintage? ... From jsw at ieee.org Wed Jun 1 11:33:43 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:33:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <1C763AF7-05C9-4256-B397-1E31F4BF762E@ieee.org> References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <71a81b23-8df5-05cd-f503-7d519558162e@btinternet.com> <1C763AF7-05C9-4256-B397-1E31F4BF762E@ieee.org> Message-ID: <992ED69B-2D64-40E9-9599-983EE7820800@ieee.org> Jerry Weiss jsw at ieee.org > On Jun 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > > > Its possible that a low or bad battery may be causing problems if the TOY chip is also was used to store a the bits of the Setup or other internal status. > You said the settings are saved, but does this mean they are retained after power has been removed? Best to put in a new battery and rule it out. > After further review EEprom is seperate chip for the setup retention. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jun 1 11:39:23 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 11:39:23 -0500 Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <574F0FBB.7040700@pico-systems.com> On 06/01/2016 09:18 AM, geneb wrote: > For trackballs, you can't beat the Kensington Trackball: > http://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k64325/expert-mouse-wired-trackball > > (They can be had for less in other places) > The ball is roughly the size of a cue ball and it's got a > nice feel to it. $100?? Yikes! Well, I wear these out, so I will keep an eye out for one at a more reasonable price. What dies is the button switches, so I replace those as needed. Jon From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 1 11:48:24 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 09:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Real Mice (was real keyboards ...) In-Reply-To: <574F0808.4020204@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <7FCD7731-4A85-4942-BA8D-3767C639262A@orthanc.ca> <574E57FD.2050405@pico-systems.com> <574F0808.4020204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 06/01/2016 07:18 AM, geneb wrote: > >> For trackballs, you can't beat the Kensington Trackball: >> http://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k64325/expert-mouse-wired-trackball >> > (They can be had for less in other places) >> The ball is roughly the size of a cue ball and it's got a nice feel >> to it. > > I'll venture that the ball in my CH DT225 *is* a standard billiards cue > ball. That design looks very similar to the Kensington I had in the early to mid 90's. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 11:59:08 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 18:59:08 +0200 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > On 01 Jun 2016, at 16:46 , Liam Proven wrote: > > On 1 June 2016 at 00:16, Swift Griggs wrote: >> I've never >> known them to create "clackety" keyboards with mechanical switches > > But that's the point. This here Extended II has them, as did the > Extended I before it. (I have one of them too, but I couldn't find it > in my storage unit in London to bring it over here to the Czech > Republic.) > > I think the earlier ones do too, but they, although pleasant to type > on, have weird key layouts, especially of the cursor keys. The > Extended I & II have a PC-like layout, which minimised the mental > effort of switching between my Mac, my PC laptops and my IBM Model-M > equipped Raspberry Pi. "Inverted T" FTW! The Apple //e, //c, //c+ and //GS all had mechanical and somewhat clicky keyboards (using various types of Alps keyswitches). I'm also pretty certain that the original Mac had a (very nice) clicky keyboard. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 12:06:47 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:06:47 -0600 Subject: MOnSter 6502 (was Re: Monster 6502) Message-ID: Nitpick: It's not the "Monster 6502", it's the "MOnSter 6502". Eric has added discrete capacitors to the internal buses which has it working better than before. I haven't heard whether that's improved the maximum clock rate. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 12:22:48 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 18:22:48 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013b677b-bba0-2f24-d09e-6998f4c31014@btinternet.com> On 01/06/2016 16:27, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood Sent: Wednesday, > June 01, 2016 1:02 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts Subject: PDP-11/94-E > Hi > I'm trying to get my 11/94 running. Its a hybrid having both Q > and Unibus. The CPU card has a KDJ11-E > 18Mhz processor with 4Mb ram and six serial ports plus the console on > board. Apart from a voltage monitor card > that's all there is in the Qbus section. > Between the Q and Unibus sections is a special convertor card > (KTJ-11B UNIBUS adapter.) > After the KTJ-11B I have one slot with an RX211 8in floppy controller > in it. > All of the other slots have bus grant cards except the last one that > has a terminator card and a MLM card. > On switch on the console display comes up. Whilst it performs the same > functions as the one in the manual > it looks different. What ever I do by way of setting up devices I > can't get it to talk to the RX211. > it just says No Controller. > > Ideas anybody? > Rod Smallwood > > --------- > I have to do this from memory as all my systems "live" 9 km away ... > Both 84 and 94 in that box are very similar. The first 4 (5?) slots > are QBUS, > the rest is UNIBUS. The slot between the QBUS and UNIBUS is where the > converter is supposed to be. > In the 84, all memory would go in the QBUS slots, but with the 94, I > guess > the QBUS slots will be empty, because *all* memory is on-board the 94. > > However, most right slot (seen from the front) in the QBUS section is a > module that, among others, has the system voltages and monitoring. > On *that* board are all NPR/NPG (CA1-CB1) "jumpers" for the UNIBUS > slots. Actually they are DIP switches. > The RX211 must have the NPR/NPG open. Check the documention > which DIP switch must be set in the correct position. > However, not sure if that would cause the RX211 to be "invisible". > > Can you check the RX211 in another UNIBUS system? See whether its > CSR responds. Also, check the configuration of the RX211. It might be > set to a different CSR ... > > - Henk > Thanks Henk You are quite correct. Its are laid out exactly as you describe and as in the manual. There is a monitoring card next to the cpu connected by a few black wires on a plug. There nothing in the next slot because as you comment that's where the PMI is. Next we have the Uni/Q bus converter followed by the RX02 interface card then three bus grant cards and in the last slot a minimum load card at one end and a unibus terminator at the other ( as per the manual.) I have found one issue the TOY battery needs changing . I don't have 3v cell I can make something from two 1.5v cells. Can you confirm the RX02 controller is not DMA ie polled and the npr strap for that slot does need removing. You get at it underneath The straps are held on with screws according to the PDP-11/94-E manual. At switch on it does now go into the monitor screen where you can choose List Diagnostic etc. However regardless of what you type it goes to the main setup screen. You can go the different setups and save the changes. So what would prevent it going to say the list function and defaulting to the setup screen? Regards Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 1 12:24:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/94-E Message-ID: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > if you try to get it to boot it says no controller to every device > except DD and that says no drive Hmm, I wonder if that's a clue. Ah, probably not: 'DD' means 'TU58', which is interfaced through a standard serial line (DL11 clone), and the standard device location for the TU58's serial line is 776500, which is the standard address for the first serial line, and since the 11/94 has a bunch of serial lines, the code probably thinks there's a TU58 there. But there isn't... > I cant get it to go into ODT to look at the registers. If you look in the "PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual" (EK-1184E-TM-001), available here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1184/EK-1184E-TM-001_Dec87.pdf Section 3.7 lists several ways to get into ODT. In addition to those, if you look at Section 3.2.2, it allows you to configure the machine to fall into ODT on power-on (section B gives details). > From: Henk Gooijen > The first 4 (5?) slots are QBUS Technically, PMI, which is more-or-less QBUS on the left (A/B) side (modulo not having grants, unless the appropriate backplane jumpers are set to send grants to those slots), and it uses the standard CD interconnect (as in Q/CD backplanes) on the right (C/D) side to carry PMI. > The RX211 must have the NPR/NPG open. Check the documention which DIP > switch must be set in the correct position. However, not sure if that > would cause the RX211 to be "invisible". Right; DMA would not work, but normal master/slave UNIBUS read/write cycles to the device registers should still work. > Can you check the RX211 in another UNIBUS system? See whether its CSR > responds. Another good test would be to plug a known working UNIBUS card into the 11/94, and check if the CPU can 'see' it. > Also, check the configuration of the RX211. It might be set to a > different CSR ... Yup. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 12:28:55 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 18:28:55 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <1C763AF7-05C9-4256-B397-1E31F4BF762E@ieee.org> References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <71a81b23-8df5-05cd-f503-7d519558162e@btinternet.com> <1C763AF7-05C9-4256-B397-1E31F4BF762E@ieee.org> Message-ID: <259c262b-167b-cef1-1a3c-a7c95f3455bc@btinternet.com> On 01/06/2016 17:24, Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> On Jun 1, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> >> On 01/06/2016 14:39, Jerry Weiss wrote: >>>> On Jun 1, 2016, at 5:04 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> OK from the beginning. >>>> >>>> 1. The 11/94 is housed in deep box located in a 42inch cabinet. It uses a KDJ11-E Quad proc. board. >>>> 2. Two buses (Q and Uni) are housed in the one box and are linked by a special interface card. >>>> 3. Via a pair of flat cables the CPU is linked to an I/O panel at the rear of the cabinet. >>>> As well as six nine way D (rs232) and one 25 way D (rs232) sockets there is a set of dip switches to >>>> set up the console serial line parameters. There is also a two digit power on self test progress display. >>>> 4. On switch on the self test progress display and the LED's on the edge of the CPU card count down >>>> from 77 to 04 (normal run mode) >>>> >>>> 5. Dialog mode is entered as set by the dip switches on the I/O panel. Sometimes it gives the List Boot etc. >>>> Hitting any of the choices just drops you into set up mode. Setup does work and you can save the changes. >>>> 6. The main problems are that if you try to get it to boot it says no controller to every device except DD >>>> and that says no drive. Secondly I cant get it to go into ODT to look at the registers. >>>> >>>> Comments please >>>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. The PROM appears to be genuine DEC. KDJ11-E Monitor V 1.06 >>>> >>>> 2. I have seen it the mode where it offers List etc but only with VT100 >>>> >>>> >>> It would appear that deviced on the Unibus is inaccessible. DD is run off the KDJ11-E serial ports. >>> >>> Have you checked the Unibus supply voltages? KDJ11-T properly seated? >>> Is there a good battery for the TOY clock inserted? >> TOY battery did need a change. (got to go get one) >> Would that have caused the problems? >> > Its possible that a low or bad battery may be causing problems if the TOY chip is also was used to store a the bits of the Setup or other internal status. > You said the settings are saved, but does this mean they are retained after power has been removed? Best to put in a new battery and rule it out. > > After looking at EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf documents that the self diagnostics should have checked out the KTJ11?B and cpu throughly, but its not clear it actually checks anything on the Unibus side, other than though the MAP command. > > Also check out http://www.pdp-11.nl for info on an 11/93 which is basically Qbus only use of the same CPU board. > > > Hi Henk has been helping. It would appear he has one of these beasts. See recent post for comments. I'm going to replace the battery with 2 x 1.5v whilst I get a 3V one Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 1 12:36:19 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/94-E Message-ID: <20160601173619.F133418C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > If you look in the "PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual" Ooops, getting my 84's and 94's (it's the same chassis) mixed up. You of course want the "PDP-11/94-E System User and Maintenance Guide" (EK-PDP94-MG-001) http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1194/EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf > Section 3.7 lists several ways to get into ODT. In addition to those, > if you look at Section 3.2.2, it allows you to configure the machine to > fall into ODT on power-on (section B gives details). Basically the same manual, but you want Section 3.5.6.2 in this one for the startup config. Noel From other at oryx.us Wed Jun 1 12:36:38 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 12:36:38 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement Message-ID: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> We have recently had activity on the list discussing AT&T 3b2 related stuff, then earlier today we have had discussions concerning the SCSI2SD drive replacement hardware. I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD, specifically here: and I specifically see that the AT&T 3B2/600 is supported. Many years ago, when I was administering 3b2's, I had always remembered those 327 Mb drives were a PITA getting those replaced thru my supply system. ...... Wondering if anyone here is using SCSI2SD on their 3b2's, and if so, what are your experiences? Hopefully working well? Jerry From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 12:49:06 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 18:49:06 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 18:24, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > if you try to get it to boot it says no controller to every device > > except DD and that says no drive > > Hmm, I wonder if that's a clue. Ah, probably not: 'DD' means 'TU58', which is > interfaced through a standard serial line (DL11 clone), and the standard > device location for the TU58's serial line is 776500, which is the standard > address for the first serial line, and since the 11/94 has a bunch of serial > lines, the code probably thinks there's a TU58 there. But there isn't... > > > I cant get it to go into ODT to look at the registers. > > If you look in the "PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual" > (EK-1184E-TM-001), available here: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1184/EK-1184E-TM-001_Dec87.pdf > > Section 3.7 lists several ways to get into ODT. In addition to those, if you > look at Section 3.2.2, it allows you to configure the machine to fall into > ODT on power-on (section B gives details). > > > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > The first 4 (5?) slots are QBUS > > Technically, PMI, which is more-or-less QBUS on the left (A/B) side (modulo > not having grants, unless the appropriate backplane jumpers are set to send > grants to those slots), and it uses the standard CD interconnect (as in Q/CD > backplanes) on the right (C/D) side to carry PMI. > > > The RX211 must have the NPR/NPG open. Check the documention which DIP > > switch must be set in the correct position. However, not sure if that > > would cause the RX211 to be "invisible". > > Right; DMA would not work, but normal master/slave UNIBUS read/write cycles > to the device registers should still work. > > > Can you check the RX211 in another UNIBUS system? See whether its CSR > > responds. > > Another good test would be to plug a known working UNIBUS card into the > 11/94, and check if the CPU can 'see' it. > > > Also, check the configuration of the RX211. It might be set to a > > different CSR ... > > Yup. > > Noel All good information. Apart from a personal 1202 alarm (somebody out there may understand that) I did try a TK50 controller instead of the RX02 controller - same result. I'll have another go with the outstanding things to try to-morrow. My two granddaughters (one two the other four) have been helping to-day!! Thanks for the help. Please insert speech from Henry V scene III here (We few We band of brothers...) Regards Rod From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 1 12:50:20 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:50:20 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 7:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: PDP-11/94-E > From: Henk Gooijen > The first 4 (5?) slots are QBUS Technically, PMI, which is more-or-less QBUS on the left (A/B) side (modulo not having grants, unless the appropriate backplane jumpers are set to send grants to those slots), and it uses the standard CD interconnect (as in Q/CD backplanes) on the right (C/D) side to carry PMI. > The RX211 must have the NPR/NPG open. Check the documention which DIP > switch must be set in the correct position. However, not sure if that > would cause the RX211 to be "invisible". Right; DMA would not work, but normal master/slave UNIBUS read/write cycles to the device registers should still work. Noel --------- You can of course read and write the CSR and all other registers of the RX211, *if* it is in the memory space where you expect it. Making sure is easy: check the jumpers / DIP switches on the RX211. Note that the RX11 (for RX01 drives) does *not* use DMA, and what's worse (IIRC) that module does NOT jumper CA1-CB1 on the module itself! The RX211 does use DMA, so the NPG should be open. As said, there is no need to cut the NPR/NPG wire, because those two pins go to that first module at the right side, and has a DIP switch to open / close the NPR/NPG for *all* UNIBUS slots). But this is all from memory ... you can read the manual from bitsavers too ;-) BTW, yes I have an 84 and an 94 in that box (power supply at the right side of the box). Very similar in all aspects. In fact, DEC did "rebrand" an 84 to an 94 by swapping the CPU module (and removing the memory modules), and glueing a label saying PDP-11/94 over the original panel's PDP-11/84. I have such a box too. Hmmm, should take a picture of that ... - Henk From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 12:52:05 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:52:05 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > We have recently had activity on the list discussing AT&T 3b2 related > stuff, then earlier today we have had discussions concerning the SCSI2SD > drive replacement hardware. > > I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD, specifically here: > > > > and I specifically see that the AT&T 3B2/600 is supported. > > Many years ago, when I was administering 3b2's, I had always remembered > those 327 Mb drives were a PITA getting those replaced thru my supply > system. > > ...... > > Wondering if anyone here is using SCSI2SD on their 3b2's, and if so, what > are your experiences? Hopefully working well? I have my 3B2/600 running off of a SCSI2SD (from an image taken from my original dying 327MB Seagate Wren drive) and it runs like a champ. I think I'm the guy who reported success to the SCSI2SD site for this particular machine. We also have our 3B2/600 at the Living Computer Museum running off of one. I've found the SCSI2SD to be extremely useful in a number of situations. Most recently I've gotten an HP/Apollo 425T (which demands a SCSI-1 drive amongst other things) happily running off of one. - Josh > > > Jerry > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 1 12:54:16 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:54:16 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 7:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/94-E All good information. Apart from a personal 1202 alarm (somebody out there may understand that) I did try a TK50 controller instead of the RX02 controller - same result. --------- I hope you tried a TUK50 instead of the RX211, not a TK50 ... (QBUS). Personally, I would have tried using a simple DL11 or SLU module. The TUK50 is too rare (read: expensive) to be used as a guinea pig ... - Henk From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 12:57:41 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:57:41 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:Apart from a personal 1202 alarm I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 error numbers. -- Charles From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 13:03:26 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:03:26 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD, specifically here: > > and I specifically see that the AT&T 3B2/600 is supported. I neither have a AT&T 3B2 nor a SCSI2SD. Sorry. I do however, have experience with lots of ACARD adapters. The one that's most like the SCSI2SD is the ARS-2000SUP. That's the 50-pin SCSI/SCSI2 version. It works great in my older SGIs (Indy, Challenge S, and Indigo), a Quadra 660AV, Sun Sparc Classic, and I've also tested it in an Amiga 3000 where it also works fine. I use them with SSDs to push the latency as low as I can go. I realize the disk throughput is never going to be great just due to the limitations of fast SCSI2. http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=249&prod_no=ARS-2000SUP&type1_idno=6&ino=43 -Swift From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 13:05:23 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:05:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <75322e5f-e605-296e-76fe-4f85a724f999@btinternet.com> On 01/06/2016 18:50, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Wednesday, > June 01, 2016 7:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: > jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: PDP-11/94-E > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > The first 4 (5?) slots are QBUS > > Technically, PMI, which is more-or-less QBUS on the left (A/B) side > (modulo > not having grants, unless the appropriate backplane jumpers are set to > send > grants to those slots), and it uses the standard CD interconnect (as > in Q/CD > backplanes) on the right (C/D) side to carry PMI. > > > The RX211 must have the NPR/NPG open. Check the documention which > DIP > > switch must be set in the correct position. However, not sure if > that > > would cause the RX211 to be "invisible". > > Right; DMA would not work, but normal master/slave UNIBUS read/write > cycles > to the device registers should still work. > > Noel > > --------- > You can of course read and write the CSR and all other registers of > the RX211, You could if you were able to get into ODT. I have yet to discover how you get there. > *if* it is in the memory space where you expect it. Making sure is > easy: check > the jumpers / DIP switches on the RX211. > Note that the RX11 (for RX01 drives) does *not* use DMA, and what's worse > (IIRC) that module does NOT jumper CA1-CB1 on the module itself! > The RX211 does use DMA, so the NPG should be open. As said, there is no > need to cut the NPR/NPG wire, because those two pins go to that first > module > at the right side, and has a DIP switch to open / close the NPR/NPG > for *all* > UNIBUS slots). > But this is all from memory ... you can read the manual from bitsavers > too ;-) > BTW, yes I have an 84 and an 94 in that box (power supply at the right > side > of the box). Very similar in all aspects. In fact, DEC did "rebrand" > an 84 to > an 94 by swapping the CPU module (and removing the memory modules), > and glueing a label saying PDP-11/94 over the original panel's PDP-11/84. > I have such a box too. Hmmm, should take a picture of that ... > > - Henk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 13:20:55 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:20:55 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6b48c6a7-7aa6-d0eb-a6df-0f4790fd420f@btinternet.com> On 01/06/2016 18:54, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood Sent: Wednesday, > June 01, 2016 7:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/94-E > All good information. Apart from a personal 1202 alarm (somebody out > there may understand that) > I did try a TK50 controller instead of the RX02 controller - same result. > > --------- > I hope you tried a TUK50 instead of the RX211, not a TK50 ... (QBUS). > Personally, I would have tried using a simple DL11 or SLU module. > The TUK50 is too rare (read: expensive) to be used as a guinea pig ... > > - Henk Well actually the the M7547 came with the system. It just says TK50 UNIBUS CONTROLLER. I took it out because TK50's are very nasty beasts. The motors do strange things from time to time. Not only that you can't get the tapes. The old tapes go sticky and jam. I have junked loads of them Rod From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 13:21:03 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:21:03 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <75322e5f-e605-296e-76fe-4f85a724f999@btinternet.com> References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <75322e5f-e605-296e-76fe-4f85a724f999@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > You could if you were able to get into ODT. I have yet to discover how you > get there. > Read the manual. See that setup option K is the Halt on Break option which has a factory default setting of 0, which ignores console breaks from the terminal Break key. If you set that option to 1 it enables the processor to halt if the console SLU detects a break condition from the Break key on the terminal, which should cause console ODT mode to be entered. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1193/ EK-KDJ1E-UG-001_KDJ11-E_CPU_Module_Users_Guide_Jan91.pdf 3.2 Console ODT Entry Conditions 4.2.6 Setup Command 4.2.6.2 Setup Mode Command 2 ? Select Configuration Parameters K - Halt-on-Break Table 4-12 Halt-on-Break Parameter Variations From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 13:23:09 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:23:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5739f843-1a50-98bf-043a-45feeed588fe@btinternet.com> On 01/06/2016 18:57, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:Apart from a personal 1202 alarm > > I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 > error numbers. > > -- Charles You may be close .. Do you know why you do that? Here's a clue "Garmin" From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Jun 1 13:34:20 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 18:34:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-11/94-E References: <1680194968.2507933.1464806060754.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1680194968.2507933.1464806060754.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 6/1/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: > On 01/06/2016 18:57, Charles Anthony wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > Apart from a personal 1202 alarm > > > > I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 > > error numbers. > > You may be close .. Do you know why you do that? > > Here's a clue "Garmin" You had me really confused there for a moment. I thought you were talking about the company that makes navigational devices at first and couldn't for the life of me figure out what they had to do with it. Obviously, I had the wrong Garmin... But "personal 1202 alarm" is the funniest thing I've seen all day. I'm going to have to start using that expression. My students won't have a clue what I'm talking about. Hopefully it'll be a good way to educate them a bit. BLS From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 13:39:12 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:39:12 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <75322e5f-e605-296e-76fe-4f85a724f999@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 19:21, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: >> You could if you were able to get into ODT. I have yet to discover how you >> get there. >> > Read the manual. See that setup option K is the Halt on Break option > which has a factory default setting of 0, which ignores console breaks > from the terminal Break key. If you set that option to 1 it enables > the processor to halt if the console SLU detects a break condition > from the Break key on the terminal, which should cause console ODT > mode to be entered. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1193/ > EK-KDJ1E-UG-001_KDJ11-E_CPU_Module_Users_Guide_Jan91.pdf > > 3.2 Console ODT Entry Conditions > > 4.2.6 Setup Command > 4.2.6.2 Setup Mode Command 2 ? Select Configuration Parameters > K - Halt-on-Break > Table 4-12 Halt-on-Break Parameter Variations That's probably right. However as my system does not do what the manual says it should I cant get there to change that. Rod From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 13:43:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:43:51 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <1680194968.2507933.1464806060754.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1680194968.2507933.1464806060754.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1680194968.2507933.1464806060754.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <551e8ab5-b518-692a-c2ea-f1b9d866ab15@btinternet.com> On 01/06/2016 19:34, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Wed, 6/1/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> On 01/06/2016 18:57, Charles Anthony wrote: >>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> Apart from a personal 1202 alarm >>> I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 >>> error numbers. >> You may be close .. Do you know why you do that? >> >> Here's a clue "Garmin" > > You had me really confused there for a moment. I thought you were talking > about the company that makes navigational devices at first and couldn't > for the life of me figure out what they had to do with it. Obviously, I had the > wrong Garmin... > > But "personal 1202 alarm" is the funniest thing I've seen all day. I'm going > to have to start using that expression. My students won't have a clue what > I'm talking about. Hopefully it'll be a good way to educate them a bit. > > BLS OK so answer this how many seconds were left and who wore a different waistcoat every time? Rod From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jun 1 13:53:30 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:53:30 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 and/or Tek 4132 In-Reply-To: <1d525ed3-be84-8996-52de-0fe580974365@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A268@mail.bensene.com> <1d525ed3-be84-8996-52de-0fe580974365@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A26F@mail.bensene.com> Al K. wrote: > At this point it may be worth digging into the drives to see if they can be > fixed. > I have had bits of a 4132 for a while, and haven't had any luck locating > software. The original drives are long gone. At the time, I looked into sending them to a data recovery firm to see if they could be repaired or data extracted, but their pricing was way beyond my budget. I kept 'em around for a few years, but when a move was upcoming, I did a purge -- anything that was "broken", and hadn't been touched in a few years went to the big bit-bucket in the sky. Still can't believe I didn't image the tapes back in the day! I should have known better. Hindsight is 20/20. :-/ -Rick From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 13:57:42 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:57:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Raymond Wiker wrote: > The Apple //e, //c, //c+ and //GS all had mechanical and somewhat clicky > keyboards (using various types of Alps keyswitches). I'm also pretty > certain that the original Mac had a (very nice) clicky keyboard. Cool. I didn't know about those early mechanical models. I didn't wake up to macs until about the Mac II days. I did have a friend with a IIGS. I remember playing the Bards' Tale series on there. So, I must have used it before. I was disappointed that they didn't take the IIGS further as a hardware platform, but that's only because I loved my SNES (and yes, also my Genesis). IIRC, the IIGS has the same processor as a SNES with a 16bit bus, no? I like the design of the GS, too. -Swift From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Jun 1 13:59:47 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 18:59:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-11/94-E References: <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 6/1/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: > On 01/06/2016 19:34, Brian L. Stuart wrote: >> On Wed, 6/1/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> On 01/06/2016 18:57, Charles Anthony wrote: >>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>>> Apart from a personal 1202 alarm >>>> I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 >>>> error numbers. >>> You may be close .. Do you know why you do that? >>> >>> Here's a clue "Garmin" >>??? >> You had me really confused there for a moment.? I thought you were talking >> about the company that makes navigational devices at first and couldn't >> for the life of me figure out what they had to do with it.? Obviously, I had the >> wrong Garmin... >> >> But "personal 1202 alarm" is the funniest thing I've seen all day.? I'm going >> to have to start using that expression.? My students won't have a clue what >> I'm talking about.? Hopefully it'll be a good way to educate them a bit. >> > OK so answer this how many seconds were left? and who wore a different > waistcoat every time? The different waistcoat (or vest on this side of the pond) was Gene Kranz's habit. I'd have to cheat and look up the number of seconds. My vague recollection is about 15, but that memory seems to have suffered from bit rot. My impression though is that Armstrong was determined to put that thing down no matter what and the main role of the fuel level was when to stop looking and take the best spot he could find. BLS From jsw at ieee.org Wed Jun 1 14:15:01 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:15:01 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jerry Weiss jsw at ieee.org > On Jun 1, 2016, at 1:59 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > On Wed, 6/1/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> On 01/06/2016 19:34, Brian L. Stuart wrote: >>> On Wed, 6/1/16, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> On 01/06/2016 18:57, Charles Anthony wrote: >>>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>>>> Apart from a personal 1202 alarm >>>>> I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 >>>>> error numbers. >>>> You may be close .. Do you know why you do that? >>>> >>>> Here's a clue "Garmin" >>> >>> You had me really confused there for a moment. I thought you were talking >>> about the company that makes navigational devices at first and couldn't >>> for the life of me figure out what they had to do with it. Obviously, I had the >>> wrong Garmin? Isn?t it Garman? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 1 14:25:42 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>>>> Here's a clue "Garmin" >>>> You had me really confused there for a moment. I thought you were >>>> talking about the company that makes navigational devices at first >>>> and couldn't for the life of me figure out what they had to do with >>>> it. Obviously, I had the wrong Garmin? On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Jerry Weiss wrote: > Isn?t it Garman? Yes. Garmin was the demon, whose voice tried to convince me to make a right turn when I was in the middle of the San Rafael Bridge. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 1 14:17:09 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:17:09 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> Message-ID: <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/06/2016 18:36, Jerry Kemp wrote: > We have recently had activity on the list discussing AT&T 3b2 related > stuff, then earlier today we have had discussions concerning the SCSI2SD > drive replacement hardware. > > I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD, specifically here: > Wondering if anyone here is using SCSI2SD on their 3b2's, and if so, > what are your experiences? Hopefully working well? Not personally (yet) but for a while I've been looking at comments in the Nekochan forums, thinking about using it on one of my SGIs. Consensus is that it's rather slow. Not so slow that it's awful on an Indy (apart maybe from booting), but noticeably slower than people expect on faster machines. The ACARD ones seem to be faster. Perhaps it won't matter for older machines. -- Pete From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 15:08:51 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:08:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Not so slow that it's awful on an Indy (apart maybe from booting), but > noticeably slower than people expect on faster machines. The ACARD ones > seem to be faster. Perhaps it won't matter for older machines. The Acard device is @250 bucks. It appears that the SCSI2SD is $50-$100 depending who who is selling. I can tell you that the ACARD device is much faster than the Seagate Barracuda drive I was using before in my R5k Indy. I did a test using several benchmarks. There wasn't a single metric which was better on the old drive. The biggest change was in latency. It made a serious difference using the machine as a desktop. It also worked outstandingly well as a video capture destination - no dropped frames. I use a 2.5" 128G Samsung 850 Pro SATA disk internally inside the 3.5" device. -Swift From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 15:11:22 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 21:11:22 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1441717727.2481910.1464807587164.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 20:25, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> Here's a clue "Garmin" >>>>> You had me really confused there for a moment. I thought you were >>>>> talking about the company that makes navigational devices at first >>>>> and couldn't for the life of me figure out what they had to do >>>>> with it. Obviously, I had the wrong Garmin? > On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> Isn?t it Garman? > > Yes. > Garmin was the demon, whose voice tried to convince me to make a right > turn when I was in the middle of the San Rafael Bridge. > Yes sorry Jack Garman R From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 15:53:10 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:53:10 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Not so slow that it's awful on an Indy (apart maybe from booting), but > > noticeably slower than people expect on faster machines. The ACARD ones > > seem to be faster. Perhaps it won't matter for older machines. > > The Acard device is @250 bucks. It appears that the SCSI2SD is $50-$100 > depending who who is selling. I can tell you that the ACARD device is much > faster than the Seagate Barracuda drive I was using before in my R5k Indy. > I did a test using several benchmarks. There wasn't a single metric which > was better on the old drive. The biggest change was in latency. It made a > serious difference using the machine as a desktop. It also worked > outstandingly well as a video capture destination - no dropped frames. I > use a 2.5" 128G Samsung 850 Pro SATA disk internally inside the 3.5" > device. > > -Swift > > The advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as follows: 1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software) 2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature requests 3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive you want to (important for machines that expect to see only certain drives), it supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and AS/400s), it can support multiple drives on a single board, pretend to be a CD-ROM, etc, etc, etc. 4) It's considerably cheaper. It's probably slower than a real drive some instances, but in equally as many instances that you're going to use something like this, the host machine isn't going to reach peak throughput anyway. - Josh From other at oryx.us Wed Jun 1 16:05:36 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 16:05:36 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <574F4E20.8000800@oryx.us> Absolutely. If I had an IRIX box right now, it would be spinning rust or an SSD. One day I hope to have a Crimson and a Fuel. Any 3b2 is going to be significantly slower. I still remember when I had my first 600G (not GR) that got upgraded to (3) 327 Mb drives. I was very excited that I had *just shy* of 1 Gig of hard disk storage space available. Very different times. Jerry On 06/ 1/16 02:17 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Not personally (yet) but for a while I've been looking at comments in the > Nekochan forums, thinking about using it on one of my SGIs. Consensus is that > it's rather slow. Not so slow that it's awful on an Indy (apart maybe from > booting), but noticeably slower than people expect on faster machines. The > ACARD ones seem to be faster. Perhaps it won't matter for older machines. > From other at oryx.us Wed Jun 1 16:08:23 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 16:08:23 -0500 Subject: Acard - WAS::Re: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> Message-ID: <574F4EC7.30600@oryx.us> Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of the Acard device. I guess I should extend my question, so, does anyone have an Acard HDD replacement in their AT&T 3b2? If so, how is it working out for you? Jerry On 06/ 1/16 01:03 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: >> I was reviewing the online documentation for SCSI2SD, specifically here: >> >> and I specifically see that the AT&T 3B2/600 is supported. > > I neither have a AT&T 3B2 nor a SCSI2SD. Sorry. I do however, have > experience with lots of ACARD adapters. The one that's most like the > SCSI2SD is the ARS-2000SUP. That's the 50-pin SCSI/SCSI2 version. It works > great in my older SGIs (Indy, Challenge S, and Indigo), a Quadra 660AV, > Sun Sparc Classic, and I've also tested it in an Amiga 3000 where it also > works fine. I use them with SSDs to push the latency as low as I can go. I > realize the disk throughput is never going to be great just due to the > limitations of fast SCSI2. > > http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=249&prod_no=ARS-2000SUP&type1_idno=6&ino=43 > > -Swift > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 16:29:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 15:29:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > The advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as follows: Heh, I just ordered one. I'll test it vis-a-vis the ACARD device and post my results here and on Nekochan where I originally posted about the ACARD adapter. > 1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software) Ohhh, nice. I didn't realize that. Very cool. > 2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature > requests That's always a plus, but I doubt I'm going to try it on anything too spacey. I'll just be my SGIs and the one Amiga 3k. > 3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive > you want to (important for machines that expect to see only certain > drives), it supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and > AS/400s), I'd probably burst into flame if I touched a LISP machine at this point. Though, then again, I'm quite certain there are no Gods in the LISP pantheon. Otherwise I'd be riding a thunderbolt by now, and my college profs would be with 72 gazelle-eyed virgins. :-P NOTE TO LIST MEMBERS: THAT was a JOKE!! (remember those?) > it can support multiple drives on a single board, pretend to be a > CD-ROM, etc, etc, etc. 4) It's considerably cheaper. That's an excellent feature that I'm sure would come in handy, especially if it can emulate a CDROM with a 2048 block size. That'd be super-helpful on an SGI, and would probably make the mind-numbing 'inst' operations take a little less time. > It's probably slower than a real drive some instances, but in equally as > many instances that you're going to use something like this, the host > machine isn't going to reach peak throughput anyway. We will see. Lots of folks had the same doubt when I was testing the ACARD device. They felt that the SATA disk would overwhelm the SCSI2 bus, and they were right. However, what they were wrong about was that the internal disk didn't much matter. When I replaced the Samsung 850 Pro with a 5400 RPM laptop hard disk (still far newer/faster than the SCSI disk) the performance dropped considerably. So, while disk throughput was comparable, latency was still much lower with the SSD and that had the most anecdotal "feel" impact, too. -Swift From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 1 16:26:50 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:26:50 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <574F4E20.8000800@oryx.us> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <574F4E20.8000800@oryx.us> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 22:05, Jerry Kemp wrote: > I still remember when I had my first 600G (not GR) that got upgraded to > (3) 327 Mb drives. I was very excited that I had *just shy* of 1 Gig of > hard disk storage space available. When I bought my SGI Indy, I swallowed hard and specced a 1GB drive for it, because I'd had experience of 500MB drives filling up. Not too long after that I splashed out on one of those crazy new-fangled CD writers and then realised I'd need another 1GB drive to build the images on :-( -- Pete Pete Turnbull From guy at cuillin.org.uk Wed Jun 1 16:31:46 2016 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:31:46 +0100 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On my 1992 IBM Model M most of the key caps are removable but some are not. Notably, wider keys such as Backspace, Enter and the big + on the numeric pad don't have removable caps. They're like the Unicomp Wide Keys. On 1 June 2016 at 14:52, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > > Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( >> http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they >> have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated >> keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone >> with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. >> >> AFAIK, the key caps that Unicomp sells are the monolithic cap & plunger > that their keyboards use, not the two-part keys that the real Model M > keyboards use. (For those not aware, the Model M key cap is separate from > the plunger - the key cap is _literally_ just a cap on top of a smaller key > form that's got the plunger molded in.) > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jun 1 12:11:26 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:11:26 -0700 Subject: Ohio company with opening in Portland OR Message-ID: https://sherwin.taleo.net/careersection/10/jobdetail.ftl From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jun 1 13:15:28 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:15:28 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD for 50 pin - was Re: Macintosh Quadra 840AV In-Reply-To: <1623790578.7396.1464798781649.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> References: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> <1623790578.7396.1464798781649.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: The newer V6 board looks like what I'm after for my 9000/382 -pete On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Cody Swanson wrote: > Perfect, I will check out the scsi2sd. Thanks for the feedback gents! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Toby Thain" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2016 10:19:18 AM > Subject: SCSI2SD for 50 pin - was Re: Macintosh Quadra 840AV > > On 2016-06-01 12:11 PM, Cody Swanson wrote: >> I managed to pick up a Mac Quadra 840AV yesterday ... >> >> What is everyone doing for replacement 50 pin SCSI drives in their >> 90's hardware? Is there a reasonably priced flash based replacement >> yet? I remember looking into it a few years ago for my Sun IPX and >> the only solutions I could find seemed to be priced for industrial >> applications. > > > SCSI2SD is very reasonably priced: > > http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD > > When I bought mine last year, there were a couple of different ebay stores. > > --Toby > > >> >> Also, has anyone had experience with the apple power supplies of this >> vintage? ... > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jun 1 14:20:19 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:20:19 -0700 Subject: Macintosh Quadra 840AV In-Reply-To: References: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: There is a newer version in production V5 and the next generation (total redesign) soon. http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 9:19 AM, tim lindner wrote: > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Cody Swanson wrote: >> What is everyone doing for replacement 50 pin SCSI drives in their 90's hardware? Is there a reasonably >> priced flash based replacement yet? I remember looking into it a few years ago for my Sun IPX and the only >> solutions I could find seemed to be priced for industrial applications. > > My friend Ed, sells this: > > https://sites.google.com/site/thezippsterzone/scsi2sd > > While I have not bought one of these products, I have bought others > from him (CoCoSDC, and MCX-128, RGB2VGA) and am really happy with the > quality and service. > > zippster278 gmail.com > > He may, or may not have any left to sell. > > -- > -- > tim lindner > > "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." > From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 15:04:42 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:04:42 +0200 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <574F3FDA.3040501@gmail.com> Hello, I would need some clarification about the Plastibands, as I will have to find a suitable replacement for the belt, as ALL my cartridges need a replacement, after removing the old one without causing the infamous blank-spot. Al, please could you clarify which size / brand of (Baumgarten) plastibands did you use for the TU58 cassette? Mark, I'm not sure that a wider belt would work better, maybe worse. In fact pulley / belt mechanisms usually work with pulleys that have a bigger diameter near the center than on the sides, resulting slightly convex. Because of physical friction forces, an "unbiased" flat belt will always remain exactly in the center of the pulleys. If a cylindrical pulley will be used, this effect will not be present, so the belt will slide off the pulleys. On TU58 as in DC100 tapes AFAIK the belt is narrow, maybe abound the half the width of the pulleys. Thanks Andrea > I tried using plastibands in a TU58 cartridge, with zero success. Once stretched, the width of the plastiband was too narrow, and > it kept on slipping off the edge of the tape spool and jamming things up thoroughly. These are the ones I tried using: > http://www.amazon.com/Baumgartens-8-inch-Plastibands-BAUSF5000-Assorted/dp/B0008GIKQW > I think they might have worked if they were at least twice as wide, at around the same circumference. Is there a different type > available that might work better? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 1 18:07:10 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (pete) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 01:07:10 +0200 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 23:29, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: >> it can support multiple drives on a single board, pretend to be a >> CD-ROM, etc, etc, etc. 4) It's considerably cheaper. > > That's an excellent feature that I'm sure would come in handy, especially > if it can emulate a CDROM with a 2048 block size. That'd be super-helpful > on an SGI, and would probably make the mind-numbing 'inst' operations take > a little less time. AAT. 2048 bytes is the common CDROM standard, used by PCs and their ilk, whereas SGIs want 512-byte blocks on CDROMs. Some SGIs/IRIX versions (eg Indy and later, running IRIX 5.3 or later) will issue a command to make the CDROM switch to 512-byte blocks instead of their default 2048. Most modern SCSI CDROMs honour that, but older ones may have jumpers or PCB links that need to be set. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From other at oryx.us Wed Jun 1 17:37:54 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 17:37:54 -0500 Subject: cdrom block size - WAS::::Re: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <574F63C2.4040901@oryx.us> +1 Most early Sun equipment required 512 block size also. Not that I am casting doubt, but I am unaware of anything that required 2048 block size for optical devices. If you have a workstation or server that required 2048 block size for optical media, please share! That is the great thing about this list, I learn new stuff, all the time. Jerry On 06/ 1/16 06:07 PM, pete wrote: > On 01/06/2016 23:29, Swift Griggs wrote: >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> it can support multiple drives on a single board, pretend to be a >>> CD-ROM, etc, etc, etc. 4) It's considerably cheaper. >> >> That's an excellent feature that I'm sure would come in handy, especially >> if it can emulate a CDROM with a 2048 block size. That'd be super-helpful >> on an SGI, and would probably make the mind-numbing 'inst' operations take >> a little less time. > > AAT. 2048 bytes is the common CDROM standard, used by PCs and their ilk, > whereas SGIs want 512-byte blocks on CDROMs. Some SGIs/IRIX versions (eg Indy > and later, running IRIX 5.3 or later) will issue a command to make the CDROM > switch to 512-byte blocks instead of their default 2048. Most modern SCSI > CDROMs honour that, but older ones may have jumpers or PCB links that need to be > set. > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 1 17:38:32 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 15:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macintosh Quadra 840AV In-Reply-To: from Pete Lancashire at "Jun 1, 16 12:20:19 pm" Message-ID: <201606012238.u51McWq954724408@floodgap.com> > There is a newer version in production V5 and the next generation > (total redesign) soon. > > http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD I have one in my Solbourne S3000. Works great. http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/solace/install.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Microsoft Windows is the IBM 3270 of the 21st century. --------------------- From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 17:51:18 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:51:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, pete wrote: > AAT. 2048 bytes is the common CDROM standard, used by PCs and their > ilk, whereas SGIs want 512-byte blocks on CDROMs. Ah, quite right. Thanks, Pete. > Some SGIs/IRIX versions (eg Indy and later, running IRIX 5.3 or later) > will issue a command to make the CDROM switch to 512-byte blocks instead > of their default 2048. Huh... I didn't realize that. I remember using one of those Pioneer slot-loading SCSI drives to load IRIX at some point and it still had the jumper as the switching mechanism. I guess I just haven't seen SCSI CDROM drives that didn't because I only order or fiddle with the ones that do. > Most modern SCSI CDROMs honour that, but older ones may have jumpers or > PCB links that need to be set. Does anyone have such a beast and can share a model # ? If they are cheap enough, I'd replace my current crapola 1X external "ace in the hole" CDROM with it. My hang-up has always been the block size issue. -Swift From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 18:08:09 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 01:08:09 +0200 Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1 June 2016 at 17:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm keyboard-oriented--Ctrl-V, where I've copied using Ctrl-X or > Control-C . The neat thing about middle-click-to-paste-selection is that it's *as well as* the clipboard C&P. So you can, for instance, highlight a URL, hit Ctrl-C to copy, highlight the page title, switch windows, middle-click to paste the title, then Ctrl-V to paste the URL too. *All in a single operation.* It's /very/ handy and worth learning if only for that reason alone. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 18:15:42 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 01:15:42 +0200 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 1 June 2016 at 20:57, Swift Griggs wrote: > Cool. I didn't know about those early mechanical models. I didn't wake up > to macs until about the Mac II days. I did have a friend with a IIGS. I > remember playing the Bards' Tale series on there. So, I must have used it > before. Yeah, I think all Apple keyboards /up until/ the Extended II had keyswitches -- then they switched to cheaper ones, like most of the industry. > I was disappointed that they didn't take the IIGS further as a hardware > platform, but that's only because I loved my SNES (and yes, also my > Genesis). IIRC, the IIGS has the same processor as a SNES with a 16bit > bus, no? I like the design of the GS, too. Interesting -- I didn't know the SNES had a 65816! I've not touched a //GS since they were new, but yes, they were lovely machines. Even if somewhat crippled -- they ran the 65816 at about 2.something MHz, when even the early ones could do circa 10-12 MHz and later ones 20-30MHz, AIUI. There are alleged technical reasons, but the main one, I think, and the reason for the machine's demise, is that it just competed with the Mac too much. The IIgs came out in 1986, the Mac II in 1987. So when the IIgs shipped, there were no colour-capable Macs (and their sound wasn't that impressive either). The IIgs looked like a plausible rival, and could have been expanded into an Amiga-alike fairly readily -- and thus threaten the still-new Macintosh. Damned shame, really. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 1 18:41:51 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:41:51 -0400 Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: References: <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20160601234151.GA22346@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > On 1 June 2016 at 17:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'm keyboard-oriented--Ctrl-V, where I've copied using Ctrl-X or > > Control-C . > > The neat thing about middle-click-to-paste-selection is that it's *as > well as* the clipboard C&P. > > So you can, for instance, highlight a URL, hit Ctrl-C to copy, > highlight the page title, switch windows, middle-click to paste the > title, then Ctrl-V to paste the URL too. > > *All in a single operation.* > > It's /very/ handy and worth learning if only for that reason alone. An interesting thing about Firefox on Linux [1] is that once you select the text of a webpage, you have some interesting options: TIMESTAMP TARGETS MULTIPLE text/html text/_moz_htmlcontext text/_moz_htmlinfo UTF8_STRING COMPOUND_TEXT TEXT STRING text/x-moz-url Those are the selection types available via X Windows [2]. "text/html" returns the HTML of the selected portion of the page. "text/x-moz-url" will return the URL of the page. "UTF8_STRING" will return the selected text as UTF-8 encoded data. Because of this, I wrote a command line program to query the current selection (assumed to be a webpage) and obtain not only the selected portion, but the URL and from there, request the page to extract the title element [3]. All in a single command. -spc (The X Selection method is quite flexible) [1] Or used to be; I haven't done this since I switched to using Mac OS-X for web browsing. [2] I won't go into depth of how this works right now---just be aware that you can chose what type of data to obtain from the selection owner. [3] A typical operation when blogging about a web page. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 1 18:36:46 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 00:36:46 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 01/06/2016 23:51, Swift Griggs wrote: > Does anyone have such a beast and can share a model # ? If they are cheap > enough, I'd replace my current crapola 1X external "ace in the hole" CDROM > with it. My hang-up has always been the block size issue. Most Toshibas respond to the command, so pretty much anything later than an XM3401 - that's a 4x caddy drive with jumpers. XM3601 is also 4x but with tray instead of caddy, though it still has jumpers for the block size. I have both of those, and an XM3301 (2x) caddy drive. O2s use XM5401 (4x), as does my Origin2000. I regularly use an XM5701 (12x) on one of my Indys, an XM6401 (32x) on another and I recently bought a Toshiba SD-M1401 ex-Sun DVD-ROM drive that is working happily on the Indy that used to have the XM5701. These are all jumperless for the block size. SGI once had special firmware for some of the early supported Toshiba CDROM drives, but that was only for the benefit of booting a really ancient miniroot on 4Ds. Sun did the same thing. I believe (but have never tested) that changing one of the pads on standard Toshiba XM3401 (not SGI/Sun branded) enables the hack. It's in the SGI FAQ. I've never had any problem with random SCSI CDROMs, but all my SGIs are Indigos or later, and the few older Sparcstations I've had are happy with any firmware I tried. I happen to like Toshibas, but I had an NEC Multispin (3x) that worked, and others swear by Plextor drives, and I believe Sun also used Hitachis. -- Pete From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 18:52:58 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:52:58 +1200 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > The advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as follows: > > 1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software) > 2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature requests > 3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive you want to > (important for machines that expect to see only certain drives), it > supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and AS/400s) Wait - what? I'd never even thought of that. Has anyone got SCSI2SD running successfully on AS/400? If not maybe I need to be the tester... Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 1 20:37:53 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 18:37:53 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <574F8DF1.4060502@sydex.com> Okay, time for a big gripe about the Model M--the *&^!~ "feet" that can be snapped out to raise the top a bit. They get old and brittle and the usual solvent cement (methylene dichloride) doesn't touch it. I much prefer the supports on the Model F, but you can't have everything. Has anyone located a source for these things. Maybe 3D printing? --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 1 17:24:57 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 15:24:57 -0700 Subject: TU58 yet one more time In-Reply-To: <574F3FDA.3040501@gmail.com> References: <574F3FDA.3040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ADA2939-85DB-4F4B-84CA-A6BBC15B757A@nf6x.net> The Plastibands that I tried were about half the width of the original belt once stretched into place, and they would not stay centered on the pulleys or tape spools at all. Once they slipped, after just a few turns of the roller, they tangled things up badly. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From pdaguytom at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 20:30:48 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:30:48 -0500 Subject: Decmate II Message-ID: I've got a Decmate II that has a keyboard issue. I've tested with a LK401 that I use with my Rainbow 100 system, keyboard works fine with the Rainbow but gives a error 48 with the Decmate. I've had a look at the motherboard, tracing pins 14 & 15 from the db15 connector to a series of what looks to me to be picofuses. Testing these in circuit with a multimeter, 4 of these "picofuses" show a resistance of approx. 530 ohms and the remaining 2 appear to be open. Anyone have any experience with these? Are these really picofuses? Any insights would be appreciated. Tom From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 1 23:58:01 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 21:58:01 -0700 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <7E1420C3-23E0-480F-AB2A-70E471AEB9F9@aracnet.com> > On Jun 1, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Yeah, I think all Apple keyboards /up until/ the Extended II had > keyswitches -- then they switched to cheaper ones, like most of the > industry. I believe so. I?m typing this on my Extended II keyboard. I bought it when I bought my PowerMac 8500/180 in January ?97. When I purchased my G4/450 (the second sold in the area) the keyboard was such a joke, I immediately invested in an ADB-to-USB converter (as in the next day). I now use it on my Mac Pro. :-) I have to admit, I rather like the keyboard that came with my SGI O2. Zane From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jun 2 00:19:42 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:19:42 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> On 6/1/2016 4:52 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> The advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as follows: >> > >> >1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software) >> >2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature requests >> >3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive you want to >> >(important for machines that expect to see only certain drives), it >> >supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and AS/400s) > Wait - what? I'd never even thought of that. Has anyone got SCSI2SD > running successfully on AS/400? I noticed that one vendor had the following note in their sale posting on Ebay. ** Please note 1) The card will be preconfigured for 8 gb storage only. 2) You will not be able to change the firmware as a little modifications have been done in PCB. Vendor: floppy_to_usb Not nice sports fans. SCSI2SD-50-Pin-SCSI-Hard-to-Micro-Sd-Converter-8-gb-micro-SD-for-Staubli-JC5 http://www.ebay.com/itm/301859438071 Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and I think I'll be buying from someone else. Thanks Jim From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Jun 2 00:26:46 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 01:26:46 -0400 Subject: Beehive B601 terminal Message-ID: <411b9b.65459d31.44811d96@aol.com> need to see a photo always looking for the beige upper case only hives~ I force people that whine about SHOUTING to use them for an hour.... Ed In a message dated 6/1/2016 9:12:18 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 06/01/2016 08:24 AM, tony duell wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone > have a service manual for it? Internally, it sounds about the same as the veneered and generated Super Bee from the early-mid 1970s. I don't see any manuals for it on bitsavers, however. --Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Jun 2 00:30:35 2016 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:30:35 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <3ed83e12-1c2e-1099-6569-06c767e18e92@mindspring.com> On 6/1/2016 10:19 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 6/1/2016 4:52 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> The advantages of the SCSI2SD over the ACard are as follows: >>> > >>> >1) It's open-source (hardware and firmware and software) >>> >2) The developer is extremely responsive to bug reports / feature requests >>> >3) It's very flexible -- you can make it look like any drive you want to >>> >(important for machines that expect to see only certain drives), it >>> >supports oddball sector sizes (for your lisp machines and AS/400s) >> Wait - what? I'd never even thought of that. Has anyone got SCSI2SD >> running successfully on AS/400? > I noticed that one vendor had the following note in their sale posting on Ebay. > > ** Please note > 1) The card will be preconfigured for 8 gb storage only. > 2) You will not be able to change the firmware as a little modifications have > been done in PCB. > > Vendor: floppy_to_usb > > Not nice sports fans. > > SCSI2SD-50-Pin-SCSI-Hard-to-Micro-Sd-Converter-8-gb-micro-SD-for-Staubli-JC5 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/301859438071 > > Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the > firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open > product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and I > think I'll be buying from someone else. > > Thanks > Jim > That price ($200) is about 3X the going rate. The main page for SCSI2SD is here: http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD Scroll down to here: http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD#Purchase to find links to vendors Links to firmware updates and tools here: http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD#News I have no vested interest in SCSI2SD, other than being a very satisfied user. Don -- Don North AK6DN From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 01:49:56 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 23:49:56 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:19 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the > firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open > product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and > I think I'll be buying from someone else. > The US seller inertialcomputing has several listings from $66 to $80 currently, depending on what size SD card is included: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191849269608 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191881269696 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191839174447 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191760360045 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191845395864 The photos in the items listings show a SCSI2SD V5.0a PCB and the seller claims to have worked in direct collaboration with its designer and creator, Michael McMaster. I haven't bought one of those myself yet, although I have been considering it. From jon at jonworld.com Thu Jun 2 02:00:36 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 09:00:36 +0200 Subject: Ohio company with opening in Portland OR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > https://sherwin.taleo.net/careersection/10/jobdetail.ftl Try this, instead: https://sherwin.taleo.net/careersection/jobdetail.ftl?job=160008I1&lang=en#.V0_ZDUScGCQ.mailto I assume that's what Pete wanted to post, because every thing else is truck driver or sales associate. This is more pertinent for the list. Taleo is the work of the devil. It's now owned by Oracle. They do a lot of their implementation via POST instead of GET so job site aggregators can't mirror content. Makes it a PITA to share job links. -- -Jon +32 0 486 260 686 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jun 2 03:34:40 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:34:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At random, I've flipped over the 4 keyboards nearest me to read > thelabel. All say "Model M" along with the plant number. The part and > FRU varies; the one I'm typing this on is 1391401 for the part number. And all my keyboards say "MANUFACTURED IN UNITED KINGDOM" along with the date of production (ranging from 1987 to 1992). Maybe only the US models are labelled "Model M" ? Christian From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Jun 2 04:32:50 2016 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:32:50 +0100 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <7E2BBC8A-870D-40C3-94FD-F733B1D06414@yoyodyne-propulsion.net> When I worked at an Apple repair centre we used to fix them by replacing the switches... Until the switch to cheap Chinese keyboards Sent from my iPhone > On 2 Jun 2016, at 00:15, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 1 June 2016 at 20:57, Swift Griggs wrote: >> Cool. I didn't know about those early mechanical models. I didn't wake up >> to macs until about the Mac II days. I did have a friend with a IIGS. I >> remember playing the Bards' Tale series on there. So, I must have used it >> before. > > Yeah, I think all Apple keyboards /up until/ the Extended II had > keyswitches -- then they switched to cheaper ones, like most of the > industry. > >> I was disappointed that they didn't take the IIGS further as a hardware >> platform, but that's only because I loved my SNES (and yes, also my >> Genesis). IIRC, the IIGS has the same processor as a SNES with a 16bit >> bus, no? I like the design of the GS, too. > > Interesting -- I didn't know the SNES had a 65816! > > I've not touched a //GS since they were new, but yes, they were lovely > machines. Even if somewhat crippled -- they ran the 65816 at about > 2.something MHz, when even the early ones could do circa 10-12 MHz and > later ones 20-30MHz, AIUI. > > There are alleged technical reasons, but the main one, I think, and > the reason for the machine's demise, is that it just competed with the > Mac too much. > > The IIgs came out in 1986, the Mac II in 1987. So when the IIgs > shipped, there were no colour-capable Macs (and their sound wasn't > that impressive either). The IIgs looked like a plausible rival, and > could have been expanded into an Amiga-alike fairly readily -- and > thus threaten the still-new Macintosh. > > Damned shame, really. > > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From dave at 661.org Thu Jun 2 07:24:26 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 05:24:26 -0700 Subject: Ohio company with opening in Portland OR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E5405D0-B10B-48F8-AFC0-94BD4AB3FA0E@661.org> On June 2, 2016 12:00:36 AM PDT, Jonathan Katz wrote: >On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: >> https://sherwin.taleo.net/careersection/10/jobdetail.ftl > >Try this, instead: >https://sherwin.taleo.net/careersection/jobdetail.ftl?job=160008I1&lang=en#.V0_ZDUScGCQ.mailto > >I assume that's what Pete wanted to post, because every thing else is >truck driver or sales associate. This is more pertinent for the list. > >Taleo is the work of the devil. It's now owned by Oracle. They do a >lot of their implementation via POST instead of GET so job site >aggregators can't mirror content. Makes it a PITA to share job links. I don't like the place because it usually wants you to retype your resume for each job you apply for. Pasting the whole thing won't work -- all those little fields to populate. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jun 2 08:46:53 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 09:46:53 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5ef06c1d-f1ea-d687-9472-b12e6146b743@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-02 2:49 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:19 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> >> Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the >> firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open >> product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and >> I think I'll be buying from someone else. >> > > The US seller inertialcomputing has several listings from $66 to $80 > currently, depending on what size SD card is included: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191849269608 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191881269696 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191839174447 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191760360045 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191845395864 Big +1 to inertialcomputing! That's where I bought mine. I just checked the correspondence about it and I notice that the seller was very accommodating and helpful. --Toby > > The photos in the items listings show a SCSI2SD V5.0a PCB and the > seller claims to have worked in direct collaboration with its designer > and creator, Michael McMaster. > > I haven't bought one of those myself yet, although I have been considering it. > From stark at mit.edu Thu Jun 2 09:20:36 2016 From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 15:20:36 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <5ef06c1d-f1ea-d687-9472-b12e6146b743@telegraphics.com.au> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> <5ef06c1d-f1ea-d687-9472-b12e6146b743@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Big +1 to inertialcomputing! Hm, any vendors inside the EU? This is above the threshold where I would have to deal with VAT payable if I order it from outside. -- greg From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jun 2 09:24:25 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:24:25 +0000 Subject: 1202 alarm (was: Re: PDP-11/94-E) In-Reply-To: References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4E1949F3-0953-44AB-881C-443B70C6B4AD@swri.edu> On Jun 1, 2016, at 12:57 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:Apart from a personal 1202 alarm > > I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 > error numbers. > > -- Charles One would not think to find ?1202 alarm? as part of song lyrics, but these guys did a pretty good job of incorporating it (with full credit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHIo6qwJarI - Mark From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 09:25:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 08:25:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <5ef06c1d-f1ea-d687-9472-b12e6146b743@telegraphics.com.au> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> <5ef06c1d-f1ea-d687-9472-b12e6146b743@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > Big +1 to inertialcomputing! That's where I bought mine. I just checked > the correspondence about it and I notice that the seller was very > accommodating and helpful. I just got one yesterday. It should arrive by Monday. I had a bunch of special instructions for shipping and the cat from Interialcomputing was cool about it, and responded right away. I'll test it against the ACARD unit using my fastest Indy (R5k/180). I also own an Adaptec AHA-2940. It's a fast-scsi2 PCI adapter and is probably one of the most well supported SCSI adapters I've known. It has a 50-pin internal adapter I can connect to the SCSI2SD unit. This way, I can benchmark using BSD & Linux, too with all kinds of fancy modes, schedulers, filesystems, and benchmarking tools. I'm partial to 'fio' and 'iozone' for benchmarking, but I often also use 'dbench' to hammer concurrency tests. Of course, it won't be very fair from the standpoint that I'll be using a SanDisk UHS class-10/u3 card in the SCSI2SD versus a Samsung 850 Pro SATA SSD in the ACARD ARS-2000SUP. It should be an easy sweep for the ACARD, but we'll see. I'll blog it up and post it once I'm done. -Swift From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jun 2 09:43:18 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:43:18 -0400 Subject: 1202 alarm In-Reply-To: <4E1949F3-0953-44AB-881C-443B70C6B4AD@swri.edu> References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4E1949F3-0953-44AB-881C-443B70C6B4AD@swri.edu> Message-ID: <519da715-2fe1-ca3e-c5b9-b050ec926738@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-02 10:24 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Jun 1, 2016, at 12:57 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < >> rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:Apart from a personal 1202 alarm >> >> I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 >> error numbers. >> >> -- Charles > > One would not think to find ?1202 alarm? as part of song lyrics, but these guys did a pretty good job of incorporating it (with full credit): > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHIo6qwJarI > > > - Mark > Space program audio has long been sampling staple for trance/techno :) --Toby From ian at platinum.net Thu Jun 2 09:54:21 2016 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 07:54:21 -0700 Subject: 1202 alarm In-Reply-To: <519da715-2fe1-ca3e-c5b9-b050ec926738@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4E1949F3-0953-44AB-881C-443B70C6B4AD@swri.edu> <519da715-2fe1-ca3e-c5b9-b050ec926738@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <506DFDAA-C126-48F7-A462-91B49D7163E4@platinum.net> > On Jun 2, 2016, at 7:43 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2016-06-02 10:24 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: >> On Jun 1, 2016, at 12:57 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < >>> rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:Apart from a personal 1202 alarm >>> >>> I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 >>> error numbers. >>> >>> -- Charles >> >> One would not think to find ?1202 alarm? as part of song lyrics, but these guys did a pretty good job of incorporating it (with full credit): >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHIo6qwJarI >> >> >> - Mark >> > > Space program audio has long been sampling staple for trance/techno :) > > --Toby Public Service Broadcasting is one of my favourite groups. Check out their whole catalog if you get a chance. Lots of retro audio. Ian From jsw at ieee.org Thu Jun 2 10:37:59 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:37:59 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> <5ef06c1d-f1ea-d687-9472-b12e6146b743@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <473D8E37-5A8E-4AB8-BF1B-165E63827797@ieee.org> > On Jun 2, 2016, at 9:20 AM, Greg Stark wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Big +1 to inertialcomputing! > > > Hm, any vendors inside the EU? This is above the threshold where I > would have to deal with VAT payable if I order it from outside. > > -- > greg From the SCSI2SD site. http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1264 Lists UK and EU currencies. Jerry From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 10:53:00 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:53:00 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> <5ef06c1d-f1ea-d687-9472-b12e6146b743@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <00fa01d1bce6$d775b310$86611930$@gmail.com> http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1264 Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Greg Stark > Sent: 02 June 2016 15:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: jwsmail at jwsss.com > Subject: Re: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > > Big +1 to inertialcomputing! > > > Hm, any vendors inside the EU? This is above the threshold where I would have > to deal with VAT payable if I order it from outside. > > -- > greg From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 11:39:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 17:39:51 +0100 Subject: 1202 alarm In-Reply-To: <506DFDAA-C126-48F7-A462-91B49D7163E4@platinum.net> References: <20160601172443.ED11A18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4E1949F3-0953-44AB-881C-443B70C6B4AD@swri.edu> <519da715-2fe1-ca3e-c5b9-b050ec926738@telegraphics.com.au> <506DFDAA-C126-48F7-A462-91B49D7163E4@platinum.net> Message-ID: <1227f6b9-b078-eb4f-e8db-7987159c050b@btinternet.com> On 02/06/2016 15:54, Ian McLaughlin wrote: >> On Jun 2, 2016, at 7:43 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> On 2016-06-02 10:24 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: >>> On Jun 1, 2016, at 12:57 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < >>>> rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:Apart from a personal 1202 alarm >>>> >>>> I have a habit of coding "can't happen" error checks with 1201 or 1202 >>>> error numbers. >>>> >>>> -- Charles >>> One would not think to find ?1202 alarm? as part of song lyrics, but these guys did a pretty good job of incorporating it (with full credit): >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHIo6qwJarI >>> >>> >>> - Mark >>> >> Space program audio has long been sampling staple for trance/techno :) >> >> --Toby > Public Service Broadcasting is one of my favourite groups. Check out their whole catalog if you get a chance. Lots of retro audio. > > Ian trance/techno are they a well known group? Can't say I have heard of them Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 2 12:02:41 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 13:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/94-E Message-ID: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > You could if you were able to get into ODT. I have yet to discover how > you get there. What happens when you move the "Halt/Run/Restart" switch on the front console to "Halt"? (Note that the "Off/Enable/Secure/Standby" switch must be in the "Enable" position for the H/R/R switch to be active.) That should put the CPU in ODT. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 12:11:00 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 18:11:00 +0100 Subject: Mechanalog systems Message-ID: <7e4c1af4-7eb7-13af-a534-8ddff307daad@btinternet.com> Hi All I saw a video about the systems used in 1950's and 1960's bombers for navigation and bomb aiming. I think they could be classed as a computer even lacking a stored program. I just wondered if anybody had collected or restored such equipment. I once heard an old retired SAC US Air force guy describe them as a "box of cogs". Boy was he right Rod Smallwood From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 2 12:13:50 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: from Glen Slick at "Jun 1, 16 11:49:56 pm" Message-ID: <201606021713.u52HDot134014160@floodgap.com> > > Any idea which vendor to buy from to get an "open" part, how to preserve the > > firmware / settings on what you get if you wish to modify it as an open > > product? The above is pretty nasty for the vendor of an open product, and > > I think I'll be buying from someone else. > > > > The US seller inertialcomputing has several listings from $66 to $80 > currently, depending on what size SD card is included: Alex is a good guy. My Sol's SCSI2SD is one of his. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Merci d'eviter le "Top posting" -------------------------------------------- From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 12:16:38 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 18:16:38 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> On 02/06/2016 18:02, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > You could if you were able to get into ODT. I have yet to discover how > > you get there. > > What happens when you move the "Halt/Run/Restart" switch on the front console > to "Halt"? (Note that the "Off/Enable/Secure/Standby" switch must be in the > "Enable" position for the H/R/R switch to be active.) That should put the > CPU in ODT. > > Noel Indeed it does. I finally figured that one out last night Needless to say all of the locations I examined came up filled with zeros. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ However I sat down this afternoon to try and work out whats going on to stop any of my unibus controllers being seen. Here's what I came up with 1. The same processor KDJ11-E can be used in a Qbus or Unibus system. 2. My monitor display does not work the same way as the manual shows. 3. Although the monitor display says Unibus system. I suspect what I have is a CPU used in a Qbus system with a hacked monitor and boot eprom. For whatever reason they managed to disable the unibus I/O I think the monitor Unibus detection was never disabled because the module never went in one. I know there is a V2 version of the Monitor 4. I have what I believed is a working 11/83 in my computer room 5 . I'm going to try my processor in there and yes I know about PMI and the backplane. Does any of this mean anything to you? Regards Rod From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 12:21:09 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:21:09 -0600 (MDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? Message-ID: Here's what I'm currently looking at (all 486's, but I'd consider 386s and original Pentiums, too): * Compaq Prolinea systems * Canon ObjectStation * NEC Powermate * HP Vectra * IBM Aptiva or PS/1 Not considering: * Beige Packard Bell with Microsoft Sound System and a 1M graphics card. :-) I'm doing my Spring cleaning. I have way too much crap, and the particular type of crap that's lowest on my list of "things to keep" is PeeCee crap. I simply have too much and a lot of it are the parts I used to make PCs bearable at the time (like combo serial/LPT cards). I'm not all that happy that PeeCees even exist, yet I have over 20 of them last I checked. I think I'm going to rid myself of the vast majority of gear that Greg Douglas of Reputable system used to haze me for keeping, calling it "PeeCee crap", and that was 16 years ago. I was asking myself, why do I have all these junky plastic laptops from the early 2k era? They are mostly soulless trash (except maybe my Sony Picturebook - yes the cute one with the Transmeta Crusoe). Wouldn't I rather purge a gaggle of laptops and a few old crappy PCs and instead have a single "special" (but much slower) 486-era box ? Yes, I would. I'm actually pulling stuff out and playing with it more. Warehousing crap is becoming less and less an attractive pastime. So, I'm thinking I'll consolidate as much of the fun hardware from the 1990's as I can in one box. That will make me feel better about ditching the considerable horde of junk I'm looking at. To that end, I have a few bits I believe are considerably more desirable compared to others and I want to get as many as I can in one box. Chime in if you have suggestions. So, here we go, in no real order: * I want to stick with desktop or tower units only, no laptops, I'll probably have to add some PCI cards to get to "ultimate" status :-) * I'd use it with one of these OSs: *BSD, Linux, Solaris x86, OpenStep, BSDi, Unixware, Minix, MS-DOS, DR-DOS, FreeDOS, or OS/2. Thus the more compatible stuff is worth considering. Windows compatibility isn't something I care about ('cept maybe for comic relief, which I can get much more easily from politics these days). * Anyone know of a box with a built-in (integrated) Gravis Ultrasound? That'd save me a slot. However, there isn't much to compete with that card from the 90's. The SB16 was ubiquitous and worked well enough, but I didn't feel it could compete with a GUS. The SB16 wasn't the "ultimate" for sure. * Hmm, Symbios, LSI, or Adaptec on the SCSI controller.... OR! Maybe someone knows of a cool PC that had a built-in SCSI controller. I don't think I could abide PATA/IDE disks and for-sure no MFM/RLL drives (the horror). The nice stuff in the 90's was always SCSI, IIRC. I remember some NEC PCs that were pretty attractive and came with integrated SCSI. * I hate machines that used custom RAM. I guess it wouldn't be a deal breaker if it was already maxxed. * I'd certainly prefer PS/2 keyboard ports. * Slimline or other nice case designs are very much something I'll look for, but I need at least one PCI slot, methinks. Unless I could get a GUS and SCSI controller both integrated (man, wouldn't that be something!). Anything different or spacey is preferable to a beige box, even if it's just white or black. * Hmm, what was the ultimate PC framebuffer from the 1990s? I guess it depends on if you care about 3D or think it was too crappy in the 1990s to consider. I'm mostly in the latter camp. So, I'm more inclined to go for maximum 2D performance and maximum OS compatibility. Number Nine? Orchid? I guess I need to find some 2D performance benchmarks from 1999 or something similar. Matrox might work out. The MGA Millennium II comes to mind. I liked 3DFX, too, but I'm worried they were too 3D centric, plus they were ignored by the commercial Unix players. More video memory is great so it can run higher res where possible. * I'll use a 3Com 3c905, but I remember there being even better stuff. I'm just not sure which one is going to work best for all my OSs. Maybe the 3C509 is a better choice, but it's 10mbit and ISA, IIRC. I just remember that card works in more OSs than anything I've ever seen. Realtek is out. I won't use those PoSs ("fool me once" and all that). I'm also not a fan of Broadcom (again they burned me too often). * NTSC Video capability would be nice, but I'll probably just add it in the form of an old Happauge PCI WinTV. I need to find out what OpenSTEP and others supported. This is just a "nice to have" for me. I really liked things like the MacTV (all-in-one with NTSC tuner) back in the day. * Since I'm mostly looking at 486's, I'm mainly targeting the 486/66. I have nothing against Cyrix or exotic x86 processors from the era. -Swift From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 12:26:42 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 18:26:42 +0100 Subject: Mechanalog systems In-Reply-To: <7e4c1af4-7eb7-13af-a534-8ddff307daad@btinternet.com> References: <7e4c1af4-7eb7-13af-a534-8ddff307daad@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <013501d1bcf3$ee8edd30$cbac9790$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 02 June 2016 18:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Mechanalog systems > > Hi All > > I saw a video about the systems used in 1950's and 1960's bombers for > navigation and bomb aiming. > > I think they could be classed as a computer even lacking a stored program. I > just wondered if anybody had collected or restored such equipment. > > I once heard an old retired SAC US Air force guy describe them as a "box of > cogs". Boy was he right > > Rod Smallwood > Many are basically "Analog Computers". I was offered one by "Woodchips" on the VCF forums, might be worth asking if he still has it... .. interesting history... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Pollen#Jutland_and_Jellicoe Dave From andy.piercy at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 08:03:35 2016 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:03:35 +0100 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB40C46.3000606@mail.msu.edu> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB3E72B.4050806@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB40C46.3000606@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone have a Multibus 1 extender card they would be willing to part with please? I'm based in the UK but do have contacts in the USA it could be shipped to. Thanks, Andy P. On 4 November 2011 at 16:01, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 11/4/2011 6:22 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 04/11/11 1:32 AM, leaknoil wrote: >> >>> On 11/3/2011 9:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>>> if its dod u will need to make it secure. >>>> >>> >>> please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a >>> current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. >>> >>> >> That's very insightful. The x86 has a fantastic security record. I'd >> certainly pick it immediately over some unproven, obscure technology like >> VAX. >> > > I had no idea that the VAX instruction set was inherently more secure than > x86. (Here I was thinking that it was software that was responsible for > security!) Care to explain? > > - Josh > > >> However, I'd still have to be careful about choice of operating system, >> judging by news headlines. I'd avoid OpenBSD, for sure! >> >> --Toby >> > > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jun 2 09:38:23 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 07:38:23 -0700 Subject: Ohio company with opening in Portland OR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SO SORRY ... posted to wrong address .. -pete On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 10:11 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > https://sherwin.taleo.net/careersection/10/jobdetail.ftl From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 13:02:51 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:02:51 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Here's what I'm currently looking at (all 486's, but I'd consider 386s and > original Pentiums, too): > > * Compaq Prolinea systems > * Canon ObjectStation > * NEC Powermate > * HP Vectra > * IBM Aptiva or PS/1 > > Not considering: > > * Beige Packard Bell with Microsoft Sound System and a 1M graphics card. > :-) > > Dell made a mean 486 PC I have been very happy with my Dell 486 66 Win 3.11 system. I put in an ethernet card, nice VGA and sound cards, joystick card, dual hard drives, 5 1/4" and 3.5" disks. No CD. Back then Win 3.11 was pretty versatile and I dare say a better OPsystem than its early 90's UNIX contemporaries (*ducks*)! Note I am saying Windows for Workgroups v 3.11 not 3.1. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=626 I was using it today to serve as a terminal with my VAX 4000 (win terminal) while browsing the LoneStar.org gopher system using Netscape 2.0 The only thing I need is nicer VGA display, the DELL display I have is not as nice as the card driving it. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 13:13:48 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:13:48 -0400 Subject: Mechanalog systems In-Reply-To: <7e4c1af4-7eb7-13af-a534-8ddff307daad@btinternet.com> References: <7e4c1af4-7eb7-13af-a534-8ddff307daad@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <26C401E9-A00B-499E-ADCC-E44A8A04A27E@comcast.net> > On Jun 2, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi All > > I saw a video about the systems used in 1950's and 1960's bombers for navigation and bomb aiming. > > I think they could be classed as a computer even lacking a stored program. I just wondered if anybody had collected or restored such equipment. > > I once heard an old retired SAC US Air force guy describe them as a "box of cogs". Boy was he right I don't know the air craft kind, but the Navy used analog computers for gunnery. There's an excellent training film online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1i-dnAH9Y4 paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 2 13:19:04 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/94-E Message-ID: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > Needless to say all of the locations I examined came up filled with > zeros. Device registers will be in the range 17760000-17777776 (although toward the top you'd mostly see CPU registers). The RX02 controller (RX211) should be at 17777170-6. > Although the monitor display says Unibus system. I suspect what I have > is a CPU used in a Qbus system with a hacked monitor and boot eprom. Hmm. Well, the same physical board should work in either system (/93 or /94) - and I suspect the ROMs check to see if there's a UNIBUS adapter (KTJ11) there, and declaim the CPU board as a UNIBUS or QBUS, depending. (I.e. I would wonder if there are separate QBUS and UNIBUS ROMs.) That's because I have this bit set that there aren't separate /83 and /84 versions of the KDJ11-B for the two busses, and I would think that the /93 and /94 would likely be the same. (I should read the -B and -E manuals to confirm that.) And I don't think there are separate part numbers for KDJ11-E's for QBUS (/93) and UNIBUS (/94) systems. But I'm not familiar with the ROM contents, so I can't say for sure. When debugging broken hardware, I tend to ignore boot/diagnostic ROMs anyway, and stick to simply what the hardware does (as seen via ODT), as that's a) much less complex, and b) fully documented. (I don't know of any ROM listings, and I'm not about to disassemble them!) So if you can't see the RX211 registers from ODT, let me know, and we'll figure out what to try to see if the KTJ11 is working properly. > For whatever reason they managed to disable the unibus I/O I'm not sure you can (in hardware terms, that is - and clearly if there's no way to do it in the hardware, the software cannot do so)... although it could be broken. > I have what I believed is a working 11/83 in my computer room > I'm going to try my processor in there There's a section in the /94 maintainence manual (EK-PDP94-MG-001, available online) about upgrading an -11/84 to an -11/94; you might want to read that to see if there are any gothca's in terms of the cabling, etc. (The console cabling will be an issue, of course, since the KDJ11-B and KDJ11-E use different console connectors on the board - I'm talking about the other cables.) But AFAIK the KDJ11-E (/93 and /94) is a compatible upgrade to the KDJ11-B (/83 and /84), so your plan should work. Noel From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 13:20:45 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 15:20:45 -0300 Subject: Mechanalog systems In-Reply-To: <26C401E9-A00B-499E-ADCC-E44A8A04A27E@comcast.net> References: <7e4c1af4-7eb7-13af-a534-8ddff307daad@btinternet.com> <26C401E9-A00B-499E-ADCC-E44A8A04A27E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <575078FD.6050304@gmail.com> On 2016-06-02 3:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jun 2, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> Hi All >> >> I saw a video about the systems used in 1950's and 1960's bombers for navigation and bomb aiming. >> >> I think they could be classed as a computer even lacking a stored program. I just wondered if anybody had collected or restored such equipment. >> >> I once heard an old retired SAC US Air force guy describe them as a "box of cogs". Boy was he right > I don't know the air craft kind, but the Navy used analog computers for gunnery. There's an excellent training film online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1i-dnAH9Y4 > > paul > > The Royal Navy (UK) also had one called the "Admiralty Fire Control Clock" they where also used by the Royal Canadian Navy and likely the Royal Australian Navy as well. The WWII fire control center for the land based harbour defences here in Halifax had one or two as well. They took several people to operate with each person inputting their assigned parameter. For a time in his RCN career my father-in-law's action station was the "wind" on the fire control clock. Paul. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 13:40:11 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:40:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <63F9E8DC-BD6E-473E-83B0-FAC8699AF524@comcast.net> > On Jun 2, 2016, at 2:19 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> ... >> For whatever reason they managed to disable the unibus I/O > > I'm not sure you can (in hardware terms, that is - and clearly if there's no > way to do it in the hardware, the software cannot do so)... although it could > be broken. I could imagine any number of signals that, if stuck, would make the bus inoperative. Reset asserted, for example. Or AC LO or DC LO asserted, possibly. Or NPG asserted. paul From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 13:49:31 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, william degnan wrote: > I have been very happy with my Dell 486 66 Win 3.11 system. I've had a few OptiPlex machines as workstations given to me by my corporate masters. They were decent machines. I'm a little put off on Dell for servers after working in a shop where we got both Dell and HP (or Compaq) DL series systems. When I worked at Oracle from 2003 to 2007, we'd often get both (Dells for the hosted data centers and HP DL series for lots of lab environments). The failure rate for the Dell systems was much higher out of the box, and slightly higher in production as well. That was just my anecdotal experience. > I put in an ethernet card, nice VGA and sound cards, joystick card, dual > hard drives, 5 1/4" and 3.5" disks. I'll probably put in a SCSI ZIP drive and a combo 3.5" / 5 1/4" drive if I go with a big honkin' case. If not, I'll just do a 3.5" floppy if I gotta choose. I wonder if any of those "big floppy" style drives supported standard 3.5" floppies, too? Didn't the old LS120 and Sony HiFD do backwards support of older 1.44MB floppies, too? > No CD. Back then Win 3.11 was pretty versatile and I dare say a better > OPsystem than its early 90's UNIX contemporaries (*ducks*)! Note I am > saying Windows for Workgroups v 3.11 not 3.1. I remember those days. You have to understand that, even though I was a pre-teen / kid, I considered myself a hardcore DOS user when Windows came onto the scene. I liked a lot of things about DOS (hated some others). Once 3.1 was released, I realized how serious Microsoft was about Windows. I just couldn't stand it. Nothing was going in a direction I liked. I felt a kind of despair that I wasn't going to be a "computer guy" like I planned because if I had to work with Windows for my whole career I'd rather just dig ditches. That was about the time I got introduced to Unix (around 1992). That "saved" me. I went coocoo for coco puffs and I never looked back. So, I've never really used Windows that much. I've played some games on it, off and on. At my jobs (systems programmer, sysadmin, etc..), I always use a Unix variant. If they trick me or change the desktop OS policy, I laugh in their face until I turn purple and quit the gig using my middle finger. Bottom line, Windows isn't a consideration for me. No offense meant. It's just my background. > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=626 Cool. Reading that for fun. > I was using it today to serve as a terminal with my VAX 4000 (win > terminal) while browsing the LoneStar.org gopher system using Netscape > 2.0 Heh, right on. You are having fun with it, I don't begrudge anyone that! > The only thing I need is nicer VGA display, the DELL display I have is > not as nice as the card driving it. Heh, maybe pick you up one of those 2007FP that are going cheap lately. That's the one folks recently piped up on the thread about 4:3 and square LCDs. That is a real steal nowadays and I'd agree it's a hella-nice bit of kit. -Swift From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jun 2 13:49:28 2016 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 20:49:28 +0200 Subject: Mechanalog systems References: <7e4c1af4-7eb7-13af-a534-8ddff307daad@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <3D727E8A561A48AEA812A96D0ABB36FF@notebook> ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: "Rod Smallwood" > Hi All > > I saw a video about the systems used in 1950's and 1960's > bombers for navigation and bomb aiming. > > I think they could be classed as a computer even lacking a stored program. > I just wondered if anybody had collected or restored such equipment. > > I once heard an old retired SAC US Air force guy describe them as a "box > of cogs". Boy was he right > > Rod Smallwood > There is one at the danish Cold War mujseum at Stevnsfortet, believed to be complete. I believe there is one too at Langelandsfort. The one at Stevnsfortet covered the Oresund, preventing eastblock countries to leave the Baltic. For that reason, it was a prime target for nukes. /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 4703 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 15:18:46 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 21:18:46 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 02/06/2016 19:19, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > Needless to say all of the locations I examined came up filled with > > zeros. > > Device registers will be in the range 17760000-17777776 (although toward the > top you'd mostly see CPU registers). The RX02 controller (RX211) should be at > 17777170-6. > > > Although the monitor display says Unibus system. I suspect what I have > > is a CPU used in a Qbus system with a hacked monitor and boot eprom. > > Hmm. Well, the same physical board should work in either system (/93 or /94) > - and I suspect the ROMs check to see if there's a UNIBUS adapter (KTJ11) > there, and declaim the CPU board as a UNIBUS or QBUS, depending. (I.e. I > would wonder if there are separate QBUS and UNIBUS ROMs.) > > That's because I have this bit set that there aren't separate /83 and /84 > versions of the KDJ11-B for the two busses, and I would think that the /93 > and /94 would likely be the same. (I should read the -B and -E manuals to > confirm that.) And I don't think there are separate part numbers for > KDJ11-E's for QBUS (/93) and UNIBUS (/94) systems. > > But I'm not familiar with the ROM contents, so I can't say for sure. When > debugging broken hardware, I tend to ignore boot/diagnostic ROMs anyway, and > stick to simply what the hardware does (as seen via ODT), as that's a) much > less complex, and b) fully documented. (I don't know of any ROM listings, and > I'm not about to disassemble them!) > > So if you can't see the RX211 registers from ODT, let me know, and we'll > figure out what to try to see if the KTJ11 is working properly. > > > For whatever reason they managed to disable the unibus I/O > > I'm not sure you can (in hardware terms, that is - and clearly if there's no > way to do it in the hardware, the software cannot do so)... although it could > be broken. > > > I have what I believed is a working 11/83 in my computer room > > I'm going to try my processor in there > > There's a section in the /94 maintainence manual (EK-PDP94-MG-001, available > online) about upgrading an -11/84 to an -11/94; you might want to read that > to see if there are any gothca's in terms of the cabling, etc. (The console > cabling will be an issue, of course, since the KDJ11-B and KDJ11-E use > different console connectors on the board - I'm talking about the other > cables.) > > But AFAIK the KDJ11-E (/93 and /94) is a compatible upgrade to the KDJ11-B > (/83 and /84), so your plan should work. > > Noel OK Here's what I did 1. Jumpers on underside of board all on 2. KDJ11-E in first slot 3. APM in second slot connected to CPU 4. nothing in slot 3 5. Unibus Control card in slot 4 6. RX02 Control card in slot 5 7 Bus Grant in 6,7 and 8 8 Bus term and MLM in slot 9 Turn machine on drop into ODT key location in and press / get ? same for all of the others. Rod From js at cimmeri.com Thu Jun 2 15:27:32 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 15:27:32 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <575096B4.3070007@cimmeri.com> On 6/2/2016 3:18 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > OK Here's what I did > > 1. Jumpers on underside of board all on > > 2. KDJ11-E in first slot > > 3. APM in second slot connected to CPU > > 4. nothing in slot 3 > > 5. Unibus Control card in slot 4 > > 6. RX02 Control card in slot 5 > > 7 Bus Grant in 6,7 and 8 > > 8 Bus term and MLM in slot 9 > > Turn machine on drop into ODT key > location in and press / get ? > same for all of the others. > > Rod Do you have any way to capture a session log of what you're doing, and paste it here? Hard to follow. - J. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 2 15:31:00 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 13:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > I'll probably put in a SCSI ZIP drive and a combo 3.5" / 5 1/4" drive if I > go with a big honkin' case. If not, I'll just do a 3.5" floppy if I gotta > choose. I wonder if any of those "big floppy" style drives supported > standard 3.5" floppies, too? Didn't the old LS120 and Sony HiFD do > backwards support of older 1.44MB floppies, too? MOST of the "2.88M" drives (2.81MiB) drives could also do 1.4M; same FDC but needed device driver and twice the data transfer rate for 2.8M. And the "Floptical"s; SCSI! 20M on a 3.5" sized disk! >> No CD. Why no CD-ROM? 2/3G storage; SCSI or proprietary interfaces, even parallel port adapters. Unless you created your own software, required MS-DOS 3.10 or above. CD-ROM was less work for installing Windoze 3.10/3.11 than a couple dozen floppies. From pdaguytom at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 15:40:02 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 15:40:02 -0500 Subject: Decmate II Message-ID: Hello all, I've got a Decmate II that has a keyboard issue. I've tested with a LK401 that I use with my Rainbow 100 system, keyboard works fine with the Rainbow but gives a error 48 with the Decmate. I've had a look at the motherboard, tracing pins 14 & 15 from the db15 connector to a series of what looks to me to be picofuses. Testing these in circuit with a multimeter, 4 of these "picofuses" show a resistance of approx. 530 ohms and the remaining 2 appear to be open. Anyone have any experience with these? Are these really picofuses? Any insights would be appreciated. Tom From ethan at 757.org Thu Jun 2 15:43:09 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I'll probably put in a SCSI ZIP drive and a combo 3.5" / 5 1/4" drive if I My friends use parallel port zip drives as their way of getting software to/from their old PCs. They seem work well, the software wasn't bad, 100MB is a lot of dos software. On my Dolch luggable which is a much newer Pentium era box, I always have to boot into Windows 98 to pick up the USB thumbdrive. I copy stuff off then reboot into DOS usually. -- Ethan O'Toole From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jun 2 16:38:37 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:38:37 -0500 Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: <574F8DF1.4060502@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> <574F8DF1.4060502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <070f01d1bd17$1fbf1910$5f3d4b30$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 8:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) Okay, time for a big gripe about the Model M--the *&^!~ "feet" that can be snapped out to raise the top a bit. They get old and brittle and the usual solvent cement (methylene dichloride) doesn't touch it. I much prefer the supports on the Model F, but you can't have everything. Has anyone located a source for these things. Maybe 3D printing? --Chuck Clickykeyboards.com has replacement "feet" for the Model M. You can email him at sales at clickykeyboards.com. Cindy From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jun 2 16:42:02 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:42:02 -0500 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <071001d1bd17$999325b0$ccb97110$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 6:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) On 1 June 2016 at 20:57, Swift Griggs wrote: > Cool. I didn't know about those early mechanical models. I didn't wake > up to macs until about the Mac II days. I did have a friend with a > IIGS. I remember playing the Bards' Tale series on there. So, I must > have used it before. Yeah, I think all Apple keyboards /up until/ the Extended II had keyswitches -- then they switched to cheaper ones, like most of the industry. > I was disappointed that they didn't take the IIGS further as a > hardware platform, but that's only because I loved my SNES (and yes, > also my Genesis). IIRC, the IIGS has the same processor as a SNES with > a 16bit bus, no? I like the design of the GS, too. Interesting -- I didn't know the SNES had a 65816! I've not touched a //GS since they were new, but yes, they were lovely machines. Even if somewhat crippled -- they ran the 65816 at about 2.something MHz, when even the early ones could do circa 10-12 MHz and later ones 20-30MHz, AIUI. There are alleged technical reasons, but the main one, I think, and the reason for the machine's demise, is that it just competed with the Mac too much. The IIgs came out in 1986, the Mac II in 1987. So when the IIgs shipped, there were no colour-capable Macs (and their sound wasn't that impressive either). The IIgs looked like a plausible rival, and could have been expanded into an Amiga-alike fairly readily -- and thus threaten the still-new Macintosh. Damned shame, really. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) The Apple Extended Keyboard II also has mechanical switches, made by Alps. I have several of them. Cindy From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jun 2 16:45:42 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:45:42 -0700 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005801d1bd18$1d82c830$58885890$@net> > Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( > http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe Does anyone know if IBM produced any Model M KBs w/ post windows 95 keys (I know I know an abomination!)? You know windows key, right click key, maybe power/sleep buttons that would have interchangeable caps? -Ali From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 17:13:00 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:13:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > MOST of the "2.88M" drives (2.81MiB) drives could also do 1.4M; same FDC > but needed device driver and twice the data transfer rate for 2.8M. Heh, 2.88" disks were like unicorns. I heard all about them, but I never saw them for sale or people using them. That was probably just my limited view at the time. The 20M floptical in the SGI Indy is like a tooth fairy riding a unicorn, I've seen pictures, but I've never actually seen one (or the disks) in person. > > > No CD. > Why no CD-ROM? 2/3G storage; SCSI or proprietary interfaces, even parallel > port adapters. Oh, that was someone else. I'll put in a SCSI CDROM, probably a Plextor or Pioneer. > CD-ROM was less work for installing Windoze 3.10/3.11 than a couple > dozen floppies. Or installing SLS or Slackware with 40 floppies. :-) -Swift From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 2 17:16:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 15:16:18 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) In-Reply-To: <070f01d1bd17$1fbf1910$5f3d4b30$@com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E539F.80508@sydex.com> <574F03DA.9080103@sydex.com> <574F8DF1.4060502@sydex.com> <070f01d1bd17$1fbf1910$5f3d4b30$@com> Message-ID: <5750B032.5070405@sydex.com> On 06/02/2016 02:38 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > Clickykeyboards.com has replacement "feet" for the Model M. You can > email him at sales at clickykeyboards.com. Thanks, I'll drop him a line! --Chuck From scaron at diablonet.net Thu Jun 2 17:16:52 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 18:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >> CD-ROM was less work for installing Windoze 3.10/3.11 than a couple >> dozen floppies. > > Or installing SLS or Slackware with 40 floppies. :-) > > -Swift > Oh, man, that brings back memories. Trying to bang Linux onto a 386SX-16 with 4 Meg RAM and some puny little hard drive ... My first NAT box! It was pretty excruciating to use, LOL. I bet the throughput could be figured in kpps... ;) Best, Sean From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Jun 2 17:33:03 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 15:33:03 -0700 Subject: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <071001d1bd17$999325b0$ccb97110$@com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <071001d1bd17$999325b0$ccb97110$@com> Message-ID: On Jun 2, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > The Apple Extended Keyboard II also has mechanical switches, made by Alps. I have several of them. Except for ?Made in Japan? M3501 models marked ? 1989, those have Mitsumi mechanical key switches. Those turn out to be the ones I prefer, so I have a couple of those in addition to a bunch with the Alps switches. -- Chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 2 18:09:06 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>>> No CD. >> Why no CD-ROM? 2/3G storage; SCSI or proprietary interfaces, even parallel >> port adapters. > Oh, that was someone else. I'll put in a SCSI CDROM, probably a Plextor or > Pioneer. >> CD-ROM was less work for installing Windoze 3.10/3.11 than a couple >> dozen floppies. > Or installing SLS or Slackware with 40 floppies. :-) It wasn't very hard using parallel port, to implement SCSI (Trantor Mini-SCSI and the like), including Floptical, and 2.8M (MicroSolutions "Backpack") On machines without SCSI or CD-ROM, I would temporarily bring up CD-ROM off of parallel port when I had Windoze installations or the like to deal with. I never realized that floptical or 2.8M drives were scarce or rare, although blank media started to be harder to come by. One of the machines that I used quite a bit in my office (<2000) had a 360K 5.25", a 720K 5.25", a switch between an extrnal box with 1.2M 5.25" and 8" and the other position of the switch was 3" and 3.25", with a floptical/1.4M on a SCSI card, and a 2.8M/1.4M on a parallel port. (Did I mention that I was working with floppy disk formats?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 2 18:16:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:16:14 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> On 06/02/2016 03:13 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: >> MOST of the "2.88M" drives (2.81MiB) drives could also do 1.4M; >> same FDC but needed device driver and twice the data transfer rate >> for 2.8M. > > Heh, 2.88" disks were like unicorns. I heard all about them, but I > never saw them for sale or people using them. That was probably just > my limited view at the time. The 20M floptical in the SGI Indy is > like a tooth fairy riding a unicorn, I've seen pictures, but I've > never actually seen one (or the disks) in person. 2.88M 3.5" floppies were a huge mistake (there were also 2.88M 5.25" ones as well). The media was expensive (I think I paid nearly $50 for box of 10 DSED floppies and the drives needed FDC support. That being said, most P2 and later boxes did have 2.88M FDC support. Drives were uncommon (e.g. Teac FD235J). I think that I've seen all of about five floppies in for conversion over the last 20 years in 2.88M format. Not sure about the need for drivers, however. I guess it depends upon the type and version of your OS. I never had the need of them. Simply declaring the drive as such in the BIOS setup was sufficient. There were 3.5" flopticals, and then there were the 3.5" WORM drives--both at about the same time. The WORM drives were write-once and could not compete with CD-R when those came out. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 18:25:09 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 00:25:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <575096B4.3070007@cimmeri.com> References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575096B4.3070007@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 02/06/2016 21:27, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 6/2/2016 3:18 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> OK Here's what I did >> >> 1. Jumpers on underside of board all on >> >> 2. KDJ11-E in first slot >> >> 3. APM in second slot connected to CPU >> >> 4. nothing in slot 3 >> >> 5. Unibus Control card in slot 4 >> >> 6. RX02 Control card in slot 5 >> >> 7 Bus Grant in 6,7 and 8 >> >> 8 Bus term and MLM in slot 9 >> >> Turn machine on drop into ODT key location in and press / get ? >> same for all of the others. >> >> Rod > > Well I could use the wifes iPad to record the VT100's screen as a video Rod > > Do you have any way to capture a session log of what you're doing, and > paste it here? > > Hard to follow. > > - J. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 18:26:54 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 19:26:54 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Heh, 2.88" disks were like unicorns. I heard all about them, but I never > saw them for sale or people using them. That was probably just my limited > view at the time. The 20M floptical in the SGI Indy is like a tooth fairy > riding a unicorn, I've seen pictures, but I've never actually seen one (or > the disks) in person. 2.88M drives were common with first generation RS/6000s. I probably still have craploads of drives and media stashed somewhere from the AOL days (every dialup site had a little model 220 buried in the rack). -- Will From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 2 18:24:17 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 00:24:17 +0100 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/06/2016 23:13, Swift Griggs wrote: > Heh, 2.88" disks were like unicorns. I heard all about them, but I never > saw them for sale or people using them. I have 2 or 3 drives, one from an IBM machine and one or two from 3Com Netbuilders. I have probably a dozen or so disks, mostly from 3Com software distributions. > The 20M floptical in the SGI Indy is like a tooth fairy > riding a unicorn, I've seen pictures, but I've never actually seen one (or > the disks) in person. I have a couple of those, too. They're prone to suffering from dust, though. The biggest air intake on the front of an Indy is... guess where. I had trouble finding media, too, until someone from 3M let me have some "samples". -- Pete From js at cimmeri.com Thu Jun 2 18:44:07 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 18:44:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575096B4.3070007@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <5750C4C7.3060001@cimmeri.com> What are you using as a terminal? - J. On 6/2/2016 6:25 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > Well I could use the wifes iPad to > record the VT100's screen as a video Rod > > >> >> Do you have any way to capture a >> session log of what you're doing, and >> paste it here? >> >> Hard to follow. >> >> - J. > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 2 19:09:38 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 17:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2.8M Floppy (Was: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - In-Reply-To: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> Message-ID: I hope that Chuck will correct some of the errors that I made below: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not sure about the need for drivers, however. I guess it depends upon > the type and version of your OS. I never had the need of them. Simply > declaring the drive as such in the BIOS setup was sufficient. No need for drivers IFF your hardware (FDC and BIOS) and OS were new enough. I think that SOME FDC boards that supported 2.8M data transfer rates had BIOS chip to "update" the system BIOS. If not, DRIVER.SYS or DRIVPARM=. If the OS was too old to know that drive format (<4.00?), then it called for a relatively simple block mode device driver. Remember that PC/MS-DOS 1.00 supported 160K 1.10/1.25 supported 320K 2.00 supported 360K (and 180K) 2.10 tolerated slow Qumetrak 142 2.11 (MS-DOS) was OEM'd, and LOTS of OEMs added other DOS formats (including 3.5") 3.10 was first to support CD-ROM (MSCDEX and [undocumented] network redirector?) 3.20 added 720K (first PC-DOS to support 3.5") 3.30 added 1.4M Was it 4.00 that added 2.8M? Those drives could, of course, be used on previous OS versions with device drivers. On MS-DOS 2.11 and 3.31, always look for which OEM it was from! MODE.COM sometimes handled different videos (internal/external on portables!), and OEM versions handled any special floppies. For example, Gavilan 2.11 was SS 3.5", 2.11J and above were DS (but NOT same format as PC-DOS 3.20), IIRC 2.11K brought it into line with PC-DOS 3.20. And, for example, early HP 3.5" was not the same format as PC-DOS. DRIVER.SYS V DRIVPARM=: DRIVER.SYS permitted using formats that were newer than the SETUP program knew about, such as 720K 3.5" on 5150 and 5160, or pre 3.5" 5170. DRIVER.SYS created an additional drive letter, so the 3.5" drive would end up as drive D: DRIVPARM changed the specs of the drive without creating a new letter, so your 3.5" could still be B: DRIVPARM was undocumented in PC-DOS 3.20 and 3.30, but it WAS there, and worked just fine with generic BIOS. BUT, I was surprised to find it FAILING with real IBM BIOS (or image thereof) in the same machine! Good reason to leave it out of the manual! Both DRIVER.SYS and DRIVPARM= used format #9 for 2.8M 0 = 360K 1 = 1.2M 2 = 720K 3 = 8"SD 4 = 8"DD 7 = 1.4M 9 = 2.8M You could also specify drive type using T:x/N:y (tracks and sectors), but disappointingly, it only used those to identify which one of the ones in its table; you could NOT use that to specify a 35 track or 70 track drive. BTW, if you had four floppies installed, and the BIOS understood, then your floppies would be drives A:. B:, C:, and D:. and you hard drive would be drive E:. But some programs were "hard-wired" to assume C: as the hard drive, including the INSTALL for MS-DOS 5.00! MICROS~1's answer: "Install it on drive C:, and then copy it to the hard drive that you want it on." I refused to install it to a 3" disk, so I installed on a different machine, and created a 360K boot disk, plus copied all of the other files to a sub-directory on the hard disk (E:). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jun 2 19:22:14 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 17:22:14 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01d1bd2d$fb636c30$f22a4490$@net> > 2.88M drives were common with first generation RS/6000s. I probably > still have craploads of drives and media stashed somewhere from the AOL > days (every dialup site had a little model 220 buried in the rack). Pretty common on PS/2s as well AFAIK. However, I don't think the IBM drives could easily be used in non-IBM systems... -Ali From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 19:43:44 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 20:43:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3F2528DC-F6EE-4EEB-97CD-D02BAFC8AAA8@comcast.net> > On Jun 2, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > ...Turn machine on drop into ODT key location in and press / get ? > same for all of the others. What's the terminal baud rate? paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 2 19:48:43 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 17:48:43 -0700 Subject: 2.8M Floppy (Was: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5750D3EB.7000306@sydex.com> On 06/02/2016 05:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I hope that Chuck will correct some of the errors that I made below: I think you've pretty much got it. > No need for drivers IFF your hardware (FDC and BIOS) and OS were new > enough. I think that SOME FDC boards that supported 2.8M data > transfer rates had BIOS chip to "update" the system BIOS. If the 2.88M-capable FDC wasn't part of the motherboard, it generally had a BIOS on the card for the extra stuff. This was certainly true of the CompatiCard IV and a few other "special" FDCs (i.e., those with a separate connector for a 2.88M drive). NT 4 had no problem with the drives, but then, it could also support 3-mode drives (1.23M 360RPM 8x1024 format). I believe that pin 4 on the floppy interface was used to switch speeds. > Was it 4.00 that added 2.8M? Sounds right--but it may also be a matter of *which* 4.0. MS or IBM? > DRIVER.SYS V DRIVPARM=: DRIVER.SYS permitted using formats that were > newer than the SETUP program knew about, such as 720K 3.5" on 5150 > and 5160, or pre 3.5" 5170. DRIVER.SYS created an additional drive > letter, so the 3.5" drive would end up as drive D: > > DRIVPARM changed the specs of the drive without creating a new > letter, so your 3.5" could still be B: DRIVPARM was undocumented in > PC-DOS 3.20 and 3.30, but it WAS there, and worked just fine with > generic BIOS. BUT, I was surprised to find it FAILING with real IBM > BIOS (or image thereof) in the same machine! Good reason to leave > it out of the manual! DRIVPARM was sort-of-disabled on PC-DOS 3.2 and 3.3. You had to suffix the "DRIVPARM" with three control-A characters (hex 01) to get it to work. At some point, the device types for SD and DD 8" drives were nulled out, but I don't recall when. > BTW, if you had four floppies installed, and the BIOS understood, > then your floppies would be drives A:. B:, C:, and D:. and you hard > drive would be drive E:. But some programs were "hard-wired" to > assume C: as the hard drive, including the INSTALL for MS-DOS 5.00! > MICROS~1's answer: "Install it on drive C:, and then copy it to the > hard drive that you want it on." I refused to install it to a 3" > disk, so I installed on a different machine, and created a 360K boot > disk, plus copied all of the other files to a sub-directory on the > hard disk (E:). At some point, MSDOS decided that the hard disk would always be C:, with any additional removable drives trailing that. That probably helped a lot. And there was always a drive B:, whether or not a physical drive was present (if not, it mapped to drive A: with suitable prompting messages). --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 20:10:05 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 02:10:05 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <5750C4C7.3060001@cimmeri.com> References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575096B4.3070007@cimmeri.com> <5750C4C7.3060001@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <27697abc-e6e2-23cb-b1d7-ee44caf3bfac@btinternet.com> On 03/06/2016 00:44, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > What are you using as a terminal? > > - J. > > On 6/2/2016 6:25 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> Well I could use the wifes iPad to record the VT100's screen as a video > Rod >> >> >>> >>> Do you have any way to capture a session log of what you're doing, >>> and paste it here? >>> >>> Hard to follow. >>> >>> - J. >> >> >> VT100 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 20:10:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 02:10:51 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <3F2528DC-F6EE-4EEB-97CD-D02BAFC8AAA8@comcast.net> References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3F2528DC-F6EE-4EEB-97CD-D02BAFC8AAA8@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 03/06/2016 01:43, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jun 2, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> ...Turn machine on drop into ODT key location in and press / get ? >> same for all of the others. > What's the terminal baud rate? > > paul > 9600 From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 2 20:18:08 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 21:18:08 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <000f01d1bd2d$fb636c30$f22a4490$@net> References: <000f01d1bd2d$fb636c30$f22a4490$@net> Message-ID: <6BCE9B37090D420BB64DFE193F737E31@TeoPC> Yes, they were common in later PS/2 machines. I don't have a single 2.8Mb disk but quite a few drives go figure. Don't really see the need for them now or even back then. Might have helped with OS releases if they could cut in half the amount of disks you needed, but CDROM killed the need. -----Original Message----- From: Ali Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 8:22 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? > 2.88M drives were common with first generation RS/6000s. I probably > still have craploads of drives and media stashed somewhere from the AOL > days (every dialup site had a little model 220 buried in the rack). Pretty common on PS/2s as well AFAIK. However, I don't think the IBM drives could easily be used in non-IBM systems... -Ali --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 2 20:26:01 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 21:26:01 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <176D4B7C3850476D92D4B13D33C3351D@TeoPC> The ultimate gaming 486 would have an EISA+VLB motherboard. EISA for SCSI caching controllers and 10/100 Ethernet cards, VLB for high end video cards, plus room for an ISA sound card. The ultimate work 486 would probably be an IBM PS/2 Model 90 or 95 with exotic MCA cards. Or the same EISA + VLB as above with different cards. To be honest I have a few different ultimate 486 setups so there isn't one ultimate to be had. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 20:41:23 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 02:41:23 +0100 Subject: 11/94 Message-ID: <9a855236-ef60-51e5-2db6-0e2e064802a9@btinternet.com> Hi I now have screen shots showing the screwed up monitor program. Good pics but 11Mb can anybody take attachments that big. Rod From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 2 20:43:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 18:43:12 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <6BCE9B37090D420BB64DFE193F737E31@TeoPC> References: <000f01d1bd2d$fb636c30$f22a4490$@net> <6BCE9B37090D420BB64DFE193F737E31@TeoPC> Message-ID: <5750E0B0.8060400@sydex.com> On 06/02/2016 06:18 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Yes, they were common in later PS/2 machines. I don't have a single > 2.8Mb disk but quite a few drives go figure. Don't really see the > need for them now or even back then. Might have helped with OS > releases if they could cut in half the amount of disks you needed, > but CDROM killed the need. XDF and DMF formats came close. --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 21:02:03 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:02:03 +1200 Subject: 11/94 In-Reply-To: <9a855236-ef60-51e5-2db6-0e2e064802a9@btinternet.com> References: <9a855236-ef60-51e5-2db6-0e2e064802a9@btinternet.com> Message-ID: The list doesn't permit attachments; they won't go through. Stick them up on Flickr or some other website where we can see them. Mike On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > I now have screen shots showing the screwed up monitor program. > > Good pics but 11Mb can anybody take attachments that big. > > > Rod > > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 2 22:09:43 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 20:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2.8M Floppy (Was: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - In-Reply-To: <5750D3EB.7000306@sydex.com> References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <5750D3EB.7000306@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > I hope that Chuck will correct some of the errors that I made below: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think you've pretty much got it. >> Was it 4.00 that added 2.8M? > Sounds right--but it may also be a matter of *which* 4.0. MS or IBM? Some GOOGLEing seems to show it as being 5.00 and, I left out 3.00 being first official support of 1.2M I wonder whether the folks coding 1.2M support knew that it wasn't for an 8" ? > At some point, MSDOS decided that the hard disk would always be C:, with > any additional removable drives trailing that. That probably helped a > lot. And there was always a drive B:, whether or not a physical drive > was present (if not, it mapped to drive A: with suitable prompting > messages). That seemed to be their intent starting with 5.00 However, when I put 5.00 on a 5160 with four floppies and motherboard switches properly set for that, the MS-DOS 5.00 INSTALL choked on wanting C:, but it worked fine when put on without using INSTALL.EXE (FORMAT/S on another machine with it installed, boot from that DOS5.00 boot floppy, SYS the hard drive, copy the files.) That still worked when I replaced that 5160 motherboard with a 386 and generic AT four drive floppy controller! The OS didn't seem to care about processor. (But, I was surprised that the Cordata laser printer software refused to try to run on mewer than 8088 processor. But, I had 4 different interface boards (such as Eiconscript) connected to an ABCD switch on that CX engine) Thank you for the Ctrl-A tip on DRIVPARM. Strangely, PC-DOS DRIVPARM worked for me with generic BIOS, but not real IBM BIOS on the same machine. The FAIL with IBM BIOS was "Unrecognized command in CONFIG.SYS"! I don't know which versions and/or which OEM'd versions had 8" support. Probably ended with 6.00 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 00:24:06 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 06:24:06 +0100 Subject: 11/94 In-Reply-To: References: <9a855236-ef60-51e5-2db6-0e2e064802a9@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <100b5304-ed1b-41a9-abee-6c999a5a1e4f@btinternet.com> On 03/06/2016 03:02, Mike Ross wrote: > The list doesn't permit attachments; they won't go through. Stick them > up on Flickr or some other website where we can see them. > > Mike > > On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: >> Hi >> >> I now have screen shots showing the screwed up monitor program. >> >> Good pics but 11Mb can anybody take attachments that big. >> >> >> Rod >> >> > Hi Mike Yes I know about the list. I was asking if anybody could take the files directly. Rod From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 00:32:15 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 00:32:15 -0500 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_thinking_of_the_"ultimate"_retr?= =?US-ASCII?Q?o_x86_PCs_-_what_bits_to_seek/keep=0D__=3F?= Message-ID: I'm a bit surprised at the recommendation of Dell but maybe they weren't playing all their proprietary games yet. I've seen where they rewired a nonstandard power connector so you'd fry it replacing it with a standard power supply or fry your other system using one of their power supplies but can't remember if that was at or atx. Seen where they did something stupid and notched their ram so it had to be registered memory. So long ago i don't remember the details though. Not to mention weird custom firmware on parts they didn't build which caused driver and functionality nightmares for 3 sound blaster cards i bought (at a bargain) but had to return all 3 for various odd reasons.? Either way. They quickly became a vendor i lost trust in but maybe lots of vendors also did that and i just ended up working on their problems the most.? Mca and vlb cards are harder to come by and fetch a higher price range vs isa/Eisa or pci.? Definitely stay away from Cyrix processors. Most computer stores i knew in the 486 era wouldn't even sell them or take them as trade ins. Comparability issues and overheating seemed to be common features.? Interesting comments on parallel drives. They're nice for compatability on multiple systems but much slower than their scsi sisters. I did both but didn't realize the huge transfer speed difference until i had traded away my scsi version for a box o' gear then later traded some of that to get a parallel zip drive again. But on the bright side most of my systems could use it or share it over null modem.? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 3 01:19:02 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 23:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <176D4B7C3850476D92D4B13D33C3351D@TeoPC> from TeoZ at "Jun 2, 16 09:26:01 pm" Message-ID: <201606030619.u536J2AL54526766@floodgap.com> > The ultimate gaming 486 would have an EISA+VLB motherboard. EISA for SCSI > caching controllers and 10/100 Ethernet cards, VLB for high end video cards, > plus room for an ISA sound card. As it happens, this is nearly exactly what I have: EISA (with an AWE32 ISA sound card) with a VLB video card. The CPU is an Am5x86 133MHz, which AMD advertised as comparable to the 75MHz Pentium. This is fairly accurate for integer games (it runs things like Doom and Heretic like buddah), but obviously it chugs on FP and won't run anything requiring Pentium instructions. On the other hand, this machine runs a lot of finicky older games that don't like my PCI P75 (Bio Menace, I'm looking at yoooooooouuuu). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You cannot have a science without measurement. -- R. W. Hamming ------------ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 3 01:27:23 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 23:27:23 -0700 Subject: 2.8M Floppy (Was: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <5750D3EB.7000306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5751234B.9090607@sydex.com> On 06/02/2016 08:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Was it 4.00 that added 2.8M? >> Sounds right--but it may also be a matter of *which* 4.0. MS or IBM? > > Some GOOGLEing seems to show it as being 5.00 I'll swear that that's not right. MS/PC DOS 5.0 didn't come out until 1991; IBM was putting 2.88s out in 1988, the same year that PC DOS 4.0 came out. And PCDOS 4.0 came out before MSDOS 4.0--MS wisely held back on releasing that bug-ridden beast. It could be that 2.88 was in one of the PCDOS CSDs--heaven knows, there were enough of them. At any rate, I'll check my copy of the printed manual and see if it says anything about ED floppies. > I don't know which versions and/or which OEM'd versions had 8" support. > Probably ended with 6.00 Oh, I think the device types were stubbed out long before that. After all, there's no standard PC BIOS call that supports that. Probably left in for the PC98 crowd (the NEC APC used 8" floppies). --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 04:55:16 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 11:55:16 +0200 Subject: 2 x Sparcstation LX and Ultra Enterprise 2 available in Sweden. Message-ID: Hello. Someone left us a couple of Sparctstation LX and a Ultra Enterprise 2 that we are not being able to take care of. The Ultra Enterprise 2 has 2 CPUs 200 MHz and 256 Mbyte RAM according to a sticker on it. The Sparctstation LX configuration is unknown. I haven't tested any of these items so the condition is unknown. There are also a number of SCSI hard disk boxes. If some one has a pair of slides that fit the DEC BA11-A box (PDP-11/44 or VAX 8200?), or a floor stand for a DEC BA23 or DEC VR290 and want some Sparcstations I would be very interested in a trade. Otherwise it is free to a good home. Preference for local pickup. Shipping can be quite expensive. The location is Sweden. /Mattis From jon at jonworld.com Fri Jun 3 05:10:33 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 12:10:33 +0200 Subject: 2 x Sparcstation LX and Ultra Enterprise 2 available in Sweden. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Hello. > > to a good home. Preference for local pickup. Shipping can be quite > expensive. The location is Sweden. How expensive do you think the shipping from Sweden to Belgium would be? I would be interested in the UE2. -- -Jon +32 0 486 260 686 From stark at mit.edu Fri Jun 3 05:16:20 2016 From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 11:16:20 +0100 Subject: 2 x Sparcstation LX and Ultra Enterprise 2 available in Sweden. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 Jun 2016 10:55 am, "Mattis Lind" wrote: > > The location is Sweden. Isn't Sweden kind of a big place? From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 06:08:32 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 13:08:32 +0200 Subject: 2 x Sparcstation LX and Ultra Enterprise 2 available in Sweden. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-06-03 12:16 GMT+02:00 Greg Stark : > On 3 Jun 2016 10:55 am, "Mattis Lind" wrote: > > > > The location is Sweden. > > Isn't Sweden kind of a big place? > It depend on what you compare it with; 450000 km2. It is a lot less than US and Russia for example. It was just to give a reference when estimating the shipping cost. Pickup can be handled in Stockholm or Str?ngn?s ( http://bit.ly/1TN0QcI ) /Mattis From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 07:22:38 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 13:22:38 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160602181904.B4BBD18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0704717a-86fa-87a2-4d2d-3ef0d146c671@btinternet.com> On 02/06/2016 19:19, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > Needless to say all of the locations I examined came up filled with > > zeros. > > Device registers will be in the range 17760000-17777776 (although toward the > top you'd mostly see CPU registers). The RX02 controller (RX211) should be at > 17777170-6. > > > Although the monitor display says Unibus system. I suspect what I have > > is a CPU used in a Qbus system with a hacked monitor and boot eprom. > > Hmm. Well, the same physical board should work in either system (/93 or /94) > - and I suspect the ROMs check to see if there's a UNIBUS adapter (KTJ11) > there, and declaim the CPU board as a UNIBUS or QBUS, depending. (I.e. I > would wonder if there are separate QBUS and UNIBUS ROMs.) > > That's because I have this bit set that there aren't separate /83 and /84 > versions of the KDJ11-B for the two busses, and I would think that the /93 > and /94 would likely be the same. (I should read the -B and -E manuals to > confirm that.) And I don't think there are separate part numbers for > KDJ11-E's for QBUS (/93) and UNIBUS (/94) systems. > > But I'm not familiar with the ROM contents, so I can't say for sure. When > debugging broken hardware, I tend to ignore boot/diagnostic ROMs anyway, and > stick to simply what the hardware does (as seen via ODT), as that's a) much > less complex, and b) fully documented. (I don't know of any ROM listings, and > I'm not about to disassemble them!) > > So if you can't see the RX211 registers from ODT, let me know, and we'll > figure out what to try to see if the KTJ11 is working properly. > > > For whatever reason they managed to disable the unibus I/O > > I'm not sure you can (in hardware terms, that is - and clearly if there's no > way to do it in the hardware, the software cannot do so)... although it could > be broken. > > > I have what I believed is a working 11/83 in my computer room > > I'm going to try my processor in there > > There's a section in the /94 maintainence manual (EK-PDP94-MG-001, available > online) about upgrading an -11/84 to an -11/94; you might want to read that > to see if there are any gothca's in terms of the cabling, etc. (The console > cabling will be an issue, of course, since the KDJ11-B and KDJ11-E use > different console connectors on the board - I'm talking about the other > cables.) > > But AFAIK the KDJ11-E (/93 and /94) is a compatible upgrade to the KDJ11-B > (/83 and /84), so your plan should work. > > Noel ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hi I'm not being looked after my two granddaughters to-day so I have had a bit more time on the 11/94 Here's a summary 1. On switch on you get a screen as per the manual claiming to be Monitor V1.06 It determines correctly if you have a UBA or not. 2. This is then followed by a request to type a letter B for boot , L for list and so on. On my screen this is at the bottom in the manual its right under the text at the top. 3. You can type any letter you like and it always goes to the same screen. Its a sort of all in one for the functions. The functions all appear to work (I have screen shots I can send off list to anybody who is interested) 4. The manual shows something different. Typing a letter should take you to a screen for that function only. further choices should require another letter to be typed. In other words a typical hierarchical menu system. 5. That's the first non standard item. 6. Now we move onto the real issue. Invisible unibus controllers. 7. The Unibus adapter appears to pass all of its tests. I have two and they both perform the same. 8. The next slot to the UBA is an RX211 connected to an RX02 having an RT11 boot disk in Unit 0 It is set to the standard addresses. Again I have two and the result is the same in both cases. On power down there is the usual clonk from the RX02 as the heads unload on power off. 9. The next three slots have bus grant cards and the last one has a bus terminator and an MLM. 10 There is a second unused and not connected back plane in the box. 11. Trying to boot (Its DY for RX02 but I have tried them all) returns the message no controller and the two digit display, located on the I/O connector panel, and the one on the front panel change from 04 to 14 (boot error). 12. Now on to ODT. ODT works and returns values from all locations. All that is except the registers on the RX211 You just get a question mark in response to forward slash. 13. I have tried a couple of other controllers - same result. 13. So where next? I'd like to get both monitor and boot proms back to standard. Then at least the manual would be relevant. !4. Its worth the effort to be able to run old PDP devices. Regards Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 3 08:08:51 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 09:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/94-E Message-ID: <20160603130851.9394218C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood >> The RX02 controller (RX211) should be at 17777170-6. > OK Here's what I did > ... > Turn machine on drop into ODT key location in and press / get ? > same for all of the others. This is for attempting to read 17777170-6? (One needs the exact details, always! ;-) If so, either i) the RX211 card is set for some other address (check its address switch at E74; switch 1 {pins 1-20] is the 010 bit in the address, on up to 010000 at switch 10), ii) the RX211 card is defective, or the KTJ11 is defective. Since you don't have any known good devices plugged into the UNIBUS, it's hard to select among these possibilities. Do you have any other UNIBUS devices (other than the Tk controller) you can plug in? Also, just for grins, you could try reading addresses 17777730-34, which are registers on the KTJ11 itself, and see what you get. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 08:39:51 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 09:39:51 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <201606030619.u536J2AL54526766@floodgap.com> References: <176D4B7C3850476D92D4B13D33C3351D@TeoPC> <201606030619.u536J2AL54526766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In the late 80's early 90's all PCs, obviously, were nothing like the plug and play we have today. Most the major players who made controller cards provided driver disks with their hardware. You're going to have issues with any manufacturer, drivers are always an issue when working with orphaned hardware slapped together into a single system that was never originally built that way. The reason I am suggesting Dell in particular is that their 386/486 stuff was when they were "the best" growing company with the best value. Compared with contemporary Compaq or HP stuff of the same years I'd always find Dell easier to work with. EISA? You'd better start snapping up spare parts now, this is not a bus that I would pick as my ultimate 386/486 bus if I planned to support it in the future, too hard to find parts. Go with what's cheap now on Ebay, iSA and SCSI. Just so you know, I have Dell from this era but also Compaq, Gateway, IBM, HP, Digital Equip Corp, Packard Bell (it was good then too). No clones. Quietly I have been waiting for 386/486 to become "vintage"....I remember when on this list you'd get your head snapped off if you brought up an IBM 5150...time moves on. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 3 08:39:59 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 09:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/94-E Message-ID: <20160603133959.5F62518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood Ah, sorry about the previous message - hadn't gotten to this one yet! :-) > 2. This is then followed by a request to type a letter B for boot , L > for list and so on. > 3. You can type any letter you like and it always goes to the same > screen. I wonder if there's a case issue - have you tried upper and lower? > 7. The Unibus adapter appears to pass all of its tests. > I have two and they both perform the same. > 8. The next slot to the UBA is an RX211 .. It is set to the standard > addresses. Again I have two and the result is the same in both cases. Now that's _very_ interesting indeed. That cuts out a lot of the simple explanations (broken RX211 or KTJ11 - unless both of one of them are busted). One thing to check (sorry if you've already checked this) - did the address switches somehow get inverted (i.e. 'off' where it should be 'on', etc)? I'm too lazy to work my way through all the inversions in the address recognition logic (the print set is available online, Google "MP00626") to see whether 'off' means '1' or '0'; I couldn't find a manual for the RX211, which would say explicitly (the RK02 manual doesn't seem to cover configuration of the RX211). If that's not it, it may be time to break out the 'scope / logic analyzer. Luckily we do have the RX211 prints. I can whip you up a short program to try and read the CSR which you can 'toggle' in through ODT, if you've got a 'scope, not a LA. First thing to check would be to see if there are even cycles getting to the UNIBUS. > 9. The next three slots have bus grant cards In the right connector, and in the right way around? (I know, I know, but at this point, we're grasping at the proverbial...) > 13. I have tried a couple of other controllers - same result. As in, other kinds of boards on the UNIBUS? That's also interesting. > 13. ... I'd like to get both monitor and boot proms back to standard. I suppose it's _possible_ there's an error in the non-standard PROMs that somehow buggers up the KTJ11. According to the "PDP-11/94 System User and Maintainence Guide" (EK-PDP94-MG-001, available online), pg. 5.49, the KTJ11 has some maintainence registers which can be set to cause it to do strange things (I'm just trying to absorb them all now). One thing to note: 'Diagnostic Mode' is set at power-on, and when set, it "the UNIBUS is disabled". So powering the machine on with it set to 'Halt' (so the boot isn't run), and using ODT to poke UNIBUS registers won't work. You'd have to let the startup run (which presumably leaves the UNIBUS turned on - or maybe not, something worth checking) and then halt it to use ODT. Anway, it would be interesting to see what the KTJ11's DCSR (at 17777730) contains. Noel From martin at shackspace.de Fri Jun 3 04:58:38 2016 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 11:58:38 +0200 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160531013914.GA424@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <20160531013914.GA424@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <20160603095838.GA19356@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hi all! David Gesswein: > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 10:42:29PM +0200, Martin Peters wrote: > > I wanted to reactivate a TI Professional Computer (TIPC) and all I get > > some seconds after powering it on is the message > > > > "** system error ** 0004" > > > > and a beep, lasting for about 2 seconds. > > > > The TIPC is an early, not really compatible clone of the IBM PC 5150. I > > wonder if I need to do some reengineering and/or disassembling or if > > there is a service manual out there. > > > I didn't find them in the technical reference but did find a list in the > bios listing. If I read that correctly its interrupt or timers failed. > Should be LED ON OFF OFF. On Tuesday we replaced the 8253 and the 8259 and the error was still there. Yesterday we took a closer look at the Maintenance Manual (s/o sent me via PM on Wednesday) and the ROM-listing and it seems there is a c&p-error in table 4-3 on page 4-9: --- snip --- 11111111 RAM - All bits failed ON OFF OFF 00000000 Interrupt controller failure ON OFF ON 00000001 Invalid interrupt 00000010 NMI interrupt failure 00000100 Timer interrupt failure 00001000 FDC interrupt failure --- snap --- It should be: --- snip --- 11111111 RAM - All bits failed ON OFF OFF 00000000 Interrupt controller failure 00000001 Invalid interrupt 00000010 NMI interrupt failure 00000100 Timer interrupt failure 00001000 FDC interrupt failure --- snap --- We measure the additional diagnostic information on the onboard parallel port and it turned out, it was a FDC interrupt failure. After replacing the 1793 on the motherboard, the "** system error ** - 0004" message was gone. \o/ Now, there is a "** keyboard error ** - 0010", sometimes "0011" and the system boots to the DOS-Prompt of the installed MS-DOS 2.11 anyway, but it is not possible to enter commands. The CAPS key works, so I think, the keyboard is not damaged (at least not substantially). I think, the transceiver components on the mainboard have blown. When I tested the TI PC the first time (about two years ago), I suspected the "** system error ** - 0004" to be a keyboard error, so I tested it with a PC-keyboard (bad idea!), not knowing the TI PC being a very special non-IBM-compatible device :-( The 8251 is already replaced unsuccessfully, so the next step is to change the receiver and transmitter on the mainboard. I'll report. Greetings, Martin From jsw at ieee.org Fri Jun 3 08:58:17 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 08:58:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8ABE02FD-D981-4DC0-99F3-2718C4893498@ieee.org> On Jun 1, 2016, at 8:39 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote > ?.. > Have you checked the Unibus supply voltages? > ? > > As a rule-out make sure the Unibus cards are getting power correctly. The Power Supply sounds like is fine and powering the QBus side of things, but if the connections to the Unibus backplane are wonky it might create symptom that the cards don?t exist. Note: I?m not referring to the AC and DC LOW that Paul K mentioned earlier (which also are good items to check), but just the raw power to the backplane. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 09:33:43 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 15:33:43 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <8ABE02FD-D981-4DC0-99F3-2718C4893498@ieee.org> References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8ABE02FD-D981-4DC0-99F3-2718C4893498@ieee.org> Message-ID: On 03/06/2016 14:58, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On Jun 1, 2016, at 8:39 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote >> ?.. >> Have you checked the Unibus supply voltages? >> ? >> >> > As a rule-out make sure the Unibus cards are getting power correctly. The Power Supply sounds like is fine and powering the QBus side of things, but if the connections to the Unibus backplane are wonky it might create symptom that the cards don?t exist. Note: I?m not referring to the AC and DC LOW that Paul K mentioned earlier (which also are good items to check), but just the raw power to the backplane. > > > Measured at the MLM -14.8v and +4.98 From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 3 09:39:30 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 10:39:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160601001056.A9A7618C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8ABE02FD-D981-4DC0-99F3-2718C4893498@ieee.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 3, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 03/06/2016 14:58, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> On Jun 1, 2016, at 8:39 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote >>> ?.. >>> Have you checked the Unibus supply voltages? >>> ? >>> >> As a rule-out make sure the Unibus cards are getting power correctly. The Power Supply sounds like is fine and powering the QBus side of things, but if the connections to the Unibus backplane are wonky it might create symptom that the cards don?t exist. Note: I?m not referring to the AC and DC LOW that Paul K mentioned earlier (which also are good items to check), but just the raw power to the backplane. >> > Measured at the MLM -14.8v and +4.98 That's probably close enough. But I remember from DEC that some Unibus cards don't obey the power tolerance specs. The spec is +/- 5% which is common. But some, the DMC11 is an example if I remember right, will not function reliably unless the voltage at the connector is at least equal to the nominal value. In other words, they want -0% to +5%. We had a machine that wouldn't work right, and the FS engineer went around with a voltmeter tweaking all the supplies until they were set a hair above nominal. At that point the machine was fine. paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 09:51:41 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 15:51:41 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <20160603133959.5F62518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160603133959.5F62518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <745bf783-8c78-a3a4-6062-4812b4e17477@btinternet.com> On 03/06/2016 14:39, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > Ah, sorry about the previous message - hadn't gotten to this one yet! :-) > > > 2. This is then followed by a request to type a letter B for boot , L > > for list and so on. > > 3. You can type any letter you like and it always goes to the same > > screen. > > I wonder if there's a case issue - have you tried upper and lower? > > > 7. The Unibus adapter appears to pass all of its tests. > > I have two and they both perform the same. > > 8. The next slot to the UBA is an RX211 .. It is set to the standard > > addresses. Again I have two and the result is the same in both cases. > > Now that's _very_ interesting indeed. That cuts out a lot of the simple > explanations (broken RX211 or KTJ11 - unless both of one of them are busted). > > One thing to check (sorry if you've already checked this) - did the address > switches somehow get inverted (i.e. 'off' where it should be 'on', etc)? I'm > too lazy to work my way through all the inversions in the address recognition > logic (the print set is available online, Google "MP00626") to see whether > 'off' means '1' or '0'; I couldn't find a manual for the RX211, which would > say explicitly (the RK02 manual doesn't seem to cover configuration of the > RX211). > > If that's not it, it may be time to break out the 'scope / logic analyzer. > Luckily we do have the RX211 prints. I can whip you up a short program to try > and read the CSR which you can 'toggle' in through ODT, if you've got a > 'scope, not a LA. First thing to check would be to see if there are even > cycles getting to the UNIBUS. > > > 9. The next three slots have bus grant cards > > In the right connector, and in the right way around? (I know, I know, but > at this point, we're grasping at the proverbial...) > > > 13. I have tried a couple of other controllers - same result. > > As in, other kinds of boards on the UNIBUS? That's also interesting. > > > 13. ... I'd like to get both monitor and boot proms back to standard. > > I suppose it's _possible_ there's an error in the non-standard PROMs that > somehow buggers up the KTJ11. > > According to the "PDP-11/94 System User and Maintainence Guide" > (EK-PDP94-MG-001, available online), pg. 5.49, the KTJ11 has some > maintainence registers which can be set to cause it to do strange things (I'm > just trying to absorb them all now). > > One thing to note: 'Diagnostic Mode' is set at power-on, and when set, it > "the UNIBUS is disabled". So powering the machine on with it set to 'Halt' > (so the boot isn't run), and using ODT to poke UNIBUS registers won't work. > You'd have to let the startup run (which presumably leaves the UNIBUS turned > on - or maybe not, something worth checking) and then halt it to use ODT. > > Anway, it would be interesting to see what the KTJ11's DCSR (at 17777730) > contains. > > Noel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RX211 + ++ + + + + ++ ++++ ++++ += this end depressed ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- KTJ11's DCSR 17777730/000210 R From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 09:57:38 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 08:57:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <176D4B7C3850476D92D4B13D33C3351D@TeoPC> References: <176D4B7C3850476D92D4B13D33C3351D@TeoPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, TeoZ wrote: > The ultimate gaming 486 would have an EISA+VLB motherboard. Yes, I would agree on that. However, since I'm mostly interested in running older Unix variants and DOS, games aren't at the top of my value system. Don't get me wrong, I love games, and I'd surely have a few loaded with DOS. However, I'm looking for something special. I have this foggy memory of a small, white, NEC (or maybe it was NCR, or or or... crap. I just can't remember) slimline desktop machine that was a 486 and had a SCSI2 interface right on the mobo and had an external SCSI2 header, too. I know it had two or three expansion slots, but I didn't get to pop open the box to look at what kind of slots they were. I've been google image searching for a while trying to find it again. I saw them while doing some contract job back in the 90's. The green LED on a SCSI terminator caught my eye (as well as the fact that I liked the case design). > EISA for SCSI caching controllers and 10/100 Ethernet cards, VLB for > high end video cards, plus room for an ISA sound card. I have an Orchid VL-bus card I plan to use. I think I'll probably go with the 3c509 for ethernet, or a 3C905 if the machine comes with PCI (doubtful). > The ultimate work 486 would probably be an IBM PS/2 Model 90 or 95 with > exotic MCA cards. Or the same EISA + VLB as above with different cards. I'm not a huge PS/2 fan, but some of them were still interesting to me. I just looked those up. That model 95 is a beast. 8 32-bit MCA slots. Geeze. However, I'm afraid a lot of those MCA adapters won't be supported under something like BSDi or Solaris x86. > To be honest I have a few different ultimate 486 setups so there isn't > one ultimate to be had. I totally understand. That's why I put big quotes around "ultimate". Everyone has their own idea of that. I'm really just hoping that if someone sees me saying "I think this bit was really nice" about something they had a bad experience with, then they'd speak up. Some folks have already, and I appreciate that. Plus, I've learned a ton about floppy drives with the discussion about 2.88M floppies. :-) -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 10:11:44 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 09:11:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Sam O'nella wrote: > I'm a bit surprised at the recommendation of Dell but maybe they weren't > playing all their proprietary games yet. I was a little surprised, too. However, different strokes for different folks, I suppose. My experience with Dell machines mostly mirrors yours. However, I did have a core2 class Optiplex desktop that was very solid and standard. > I've seen where they rewired a nonstandard power connector so you'd fry > it replacing it with a standard power supply or fry your other system > using one of their power supplies but can't remember if that was at or > atx. Wow, that's nasty. You'd hope they didn't do that on purpose but if so... ugh. > Seen where they did something stupid and notched their ram so it had to > be registered memory. I ran into this with one of their workstations. I can't remember the model, either, though. > Either way. They quickly became a vendor i lost trust in but maybe lots > of vendors also did that and i just ended up working on their problems > the most. For me there were two things that made me have a fairly low opinion of Dell: 1. When they offshored their support folks, brought some back, then offshored again. The couple times I had to call support due to firmware issues on the old 2650, I could only talk to folks who could speak broken English, and knew almost nothing about the subject matter at hand. 2. When I worked at Oracle, we deployed thousands of Dells (about 30k over 5 years IIRC). The out-of-box failures were numerous and painful (because I had to RMA, re-pack, and ship the damn things back). > Mca and vlb cards are harder to come by and fetch a higher price range > vs isa/Eisa or pci. Fortunately, I have a decent collection of interface cards, though I might still settle on something new if there is a compelling reason. > Definitely stay away from Cyrix processors. Most computer stores i knew > in the 486 era wouldn't even sell them or take them as trade ins. > Comparability issues and overheating seemed to be common features. I know that was the case with the so-called 5x86 (586). It had straight-up bugs in the silicon, IIRC. However, the 486 models I had were very solid and quite fast for the money. These days, however, I'd probably go the Intel route. > Interesting comments on parallel drives. They're nice for compatibility > on multiple systems but much slower than their scsi sisters. Sooooo much slower. When I'm forced to use an LPT port for transferring data on those old machines, I'd use Laplink. I was always disappointed with parallel port devices, because they never seemed able to reach the same transfer speeds as Laplink and other direct-cable software. -Swift From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 10:21:59 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 11:21:59 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Sam O'nella wrote: > > I'm a bit surprised at the recommendation of Dell but maybe they weren't > > playing all their proprietary games yet. > > I was a little surprised, too. However, different strokes for different > folks, I suppose. My experience with Dell machines mostly mirrors yours. > However, I did have a core2 class Optiplex desktop that was very solid and > standard. > > > I've seen where they rewired a nonstandard power connector so you'd fry > > it replacing it with a standard power supply or fry your other system > > using one of their power supplies but can't remember if that was at or > > atx. > > Wow, that's nasty. You'd hope they didn't do that on purpose but if so... > ugh. > > > Seen where they did something stupid and notched their ram so it had to > > be registered memory. > > I ran into this with one of their workstations. I can't remember the > model, either, though. > > > Either way. They quickly became a vendor i lost trust in but maybe lots > > of vendors also did that and i just ended up working on their problems > > the most. > > For me there were two things that made me have a fairly low opinion of > Dell: > > 1. When they offshored their support folks, brought some back, then > offshored again. The couple times I had to call support due to firmware > issues on the old 2650, I could only talk to folks who could speak > broken English, and knew almost nothing about the subject matter at > hand. > > 2. When I worked at Oracle, we deployed thousands of Dells (about 30k over > 5 years IIRC). The out-of-box failures were numerous and painful > (because I had to RMA, re-pack, and ship the damn things back). > > > Mca and vlb cards are harder to come by and fetch a higher price range > > vs isa/Eisa or pci. > > Fortunately, I have a decent collection of interface cards, though I might > still settle on something new if there is a compelling reason. > > > Definitely stay away from Cyrix processors. Most computer stores i knew > > in the 486 era wouldn't even sell them or take them as trade ins. > > Comparability issues and overheating seemed to be common features. > > I know that was the case with the so-called 5x86 (586). It had straight-up > bugs in the silicon, IIRC. However, the 486 models I had were very solid > and quite fast for the money. These days, however, I'd probably go the > Intel route. > > > Interesting comments on parallel drives. They're nice for compatibility > > on multiple systems but much slower than their scsi sisters. > > Sooooo much slower. When I'm forced to use an LPT port for transferring > data on those old machines, I'd use Laplink. I was always disappointed > with parallel port devices, because they never seemed able to reach the > same transfer speeds as Laplink and other direct-cable software. > > -Swift > > All of the "new" Dell stuff should not cloud the fact that "old" Dell was superior to anyone else in 1990/93 cost vs. performance. I was a hardware evaluator back then I got regular shipments of machines put them all to the test next to each other, benchmarking, etc. Fun job. The disappointment many of us here felt about how Dell changed into a faceless corporate giant with off-shore support, proprietary "getting started" or you're bricked CDs and all that. I feel for you. Just remembering the good old days. I think in fact that Dell's success back then was specifically because they were the best clone maker. Compaq and IBM were waaaay more propietary back then, Even Gateway and PB were proprietary compared to Dell. There are also comments about EISA and that bus. If you like it the quality is there, I just get nervous if am recommending ONE 3686/486 system as the OP asked to keep. I'd want something generic of high quality - to me, then, that was DELL -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 10:22:42 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 09:22:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <201606030619.u536J2AL54526766@floodgap.com> References: <201606030619.u536J2AL54526766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > As it happens, this is nearly exactly what I have: EISA (with an AWE32 > ISA sound card) with a VLB video card. Ahh, the AWE32. I had one of those, too. They came with some funny tools. I remember "Dr Sabatsio" cracked me up. > The CPU is an Am5x86 133MHz, which AMD advertised as comparable to the > 75MHz Pentium. This is fairly accurate for integer games I forgot about that proc. Nice. That sounds like a very snappy 486 with some nice expansion cards. > On the other hand, this machine runs a lot of finicky older games that > don't like my PCI P75 (Bio Menace, I'm looking at yoooooooouuuu). Interesting. I haven't run into that problem yet. However, I do play old games, so we'll see. I don't have any 486's at the moment. The slowest x86 box I still have is a P233 HP Sojourn laptop. -Swift From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jun 3 10:42:36 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 11:42:36 -0400 Subject: The RSTS riddle. In-Reply-To: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> References: <352944f2-9a31-b0bf-5e73-50879ef30741@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5751A56C.2020300@compsys.to> >On Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 19:29:11 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Further to my posts this morning I have one last hurdle to jump. > > 1. I have a VAX with a TK70 attached and a TQK70 controller. > > 2. The tape drive works just fine. > > 3. Also on the VAX I have the correct tape (.TAP) image file for a > RSTS/E V10 install tape. > > 4. I would like to copy the .tap file to the tape so as to end up with > a bootable install tape. > > 5. I then power down the VAX and move the controller to an 11/83. (The > drive is external with its own PSU) > > 6. Boot the install tape and go from there. > > So suggestions please as to how to do 4. Just a suggestion concerning the use of the PDP-11/83, or for that matter, any PDP-11 system within either a BA23 or a BA123 box with either a TK50 and / or a TK70. Whenever I used the PDP-11/83 with ESDI hard drives (I use 3 * Hitachi DK515 600 MB drives which require a reasonable initial power surge at start-up), I always used an external power supply in order to minimize the load on the standard DEC internal power for the boards in the backplane. At one point, I also attached the TK70 to that same power supply. My experience was MUCH LESS than successful. For reasons which I never bothered to figure out, the TK70 would function successfully ONLY when it was connected to the same standard DEC internal power supply as the boards in the PDP-11/83. So if you find there are problems, try connecting the TK70 to the standard DEC internal power supply. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jun 3 10:43:19 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 11:43:19 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > [Snip] > > 4. I have what I believed is a working 11/83 in my computer room > > 5 . I'm going to try my processor in there and yes I know about PMI > and the backplane. Just a bit of information from what I seem to remember - I hope the information is correct. The M8190-BF board I have supports: (a) PMI memory placed ABOVE the CPU (b) Non-PMI memory placed BELOW the CPU (I never attempted to place non-PMI memory ABOVE the CPU) (c) When the PMI memory was placed into the backplane BELOW the CPU, then the memory would act as normal non-PMI memory. Under RT-11, the command: SHOW CONFIG will conclude that the following CPU is present: (a) PDP-11/83 (b) PDP-11/73 (c) PDP-11/73 So other than when PMI memory is placed BELOW the CPU as in (c) and it therefore takes longer to access the memory, I don't think the question of PMI memory will really make any difference. Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 3 10:50:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 08:50:10 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> On 06/03/2016 08:11 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Sooooo much slower. When I'm forced to use an LPT port for > transferring data on those old machines, I'd use Laplink. I was > always disappointed with parallel port devices, because they never > seemed able to reach the same transfer speeds as Laplink and other > direct-cable software. One reason is that parallel port devices were generally designed to work along with other parallel peripherals on the same port, so they have to watch their Ps and Qs. LL/Interlink use the port as dedicated, so no such worry. Also, it depends on the peripheral and the PC. "Nibble mode" transfers are, in fact, pretty slow, but a PC with a bidirectional SPP port (such as found on a PS/2) can improve things greatly, provided there's a device capable of employing it. ECP and EPP capabilities and peripherals even more so. cf. IEEE 1284 --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 10:58:11 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:58:11 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> Message-ID: <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> On 03/06/2016 16:43, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> [Snip] >> >> 4. I have what I believed is a working 11/83 in my computer room >> >> 5 . I'm going to try my processor in there and yes I know about PMI >> and the backplane. > > Just a bit of information from what I seem to remember - I hope > the information is correct. > > The M8190-BF board I have supports: > (a) PMI memory placed ABOVE the CPU > (b) Non-PMI memory placed BELOW the CPU (I never > attempted to place non-PMI memory ABOVE the > CPU) > (c) When the PMI memory was placed into the backplane > BELOW the CPU, then the memory would act as > normal non-PMI memory. > > Under RT-11, the command: > > SHOW CONFIG > > will conclude that the following CPU is present: > > (a) PDP-11/83 > (b) PDP-11/73 > (c) PDP-11/73 > > So other than when PMI memory is placed BELOW the CPU > as in (c) and it therefore takes longer to access the memory, I don't > think the question of PMI memory will really make any difference. > > Jerome Fine Hi its a KDJ11-B all memory on CPU board Rod From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jun 3 11:11:43 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 12:11:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5751AC3F.4090905@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On 03/06/2016 16:43, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> [Snip] >>> >>> 4. I have what I believed is a working 11/83 in my computer room >>> >>> 5 . I'm going to try my processor in there and yes I know about PMI >>> and the backplane. >> >> >> Just a bit of information from what I seem to remember - I hope >> the information is correct. >> >> The M8190-BF board I have supports: >> (a) PMI memory placed ABOVE the CPU >> (b) Non-PMI memory placed BELOW the CPU (I never >> attempted to place non-PMI memory ABOVE the >> CPU) >> (c) When the PMI memory was placed into the backplane >> BELOW the CPU, then the memory would act as >> normal non-PMI memory. >> >> Under RT-11, the command: >> >> SHOW CONFIG >> >> will conclude that the following CPU is present: >> >> (a) PDP-11/83 >> (b) PDP-11/73 >> (c) PDP-11/73 >> >> So other than when PMI memory is placed BELOW the CPU >> as in (c) and it therefore takes longer to access the memory, I don't >> think the question of PMI memory will really make any difference. >> >> Jerome Fine > > Hi its a KDJ11-B all memory on CPU board > > Rod I am very confused. Is your mention of memory on the CPU board for the PDP-11/83 or the PDP-11/93? I thought that the PDP-11/83 never had memory on the CPU board (assuming that the cache is not regarded as memory). This aspect of the thread is probably no longer relevant, I just wanted to note that PMI memory can be used with what most individuals would consider to be a PDP-11/73 (naturally a quad) board and the PMI aspect of the memory will be activated when the PMI memory is installed ABOVE the CPU board. Also when PMI memory is installed BELOW the backplane, it is then used as normal Qbus memory in a Qbus system. I can't see anyone doing that, but it is allowed. Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 3 11:28:23 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 09:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? In-Reply-To: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One reason is that parallel port devices were generally designed to work > along with other parallel peripherals on the same port, so they have to > watch their Ps and Qs. LL/Interlink use the port as dedicated, so no > such worry. . . . and, it is using two computers. It might take 10 minutes to transfer a file. If, instead, you copy to a disk for 9 minutes on one computer, and then sneakernet that disk to another computer, and read it for 9 minutes, which is faster? But, what's the big hurry? Remember when getting same day turn-around on batch processing jobs was an improvement? From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jun 3 12:51:20 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 10:51:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <5751AC3F.4090905@compsys.to> References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> <5751AC3F.4090905@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4e3d06ed-a403-0b87-6c06-16d41cdcb61c@jwsss.com> On 6/3/2016 9:11 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >On 03/06/2016 16:43, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> >> Hi its a KDJ11-B all memory on CPU board >> >> Rod > > I am very confused. Is your mention of memory on the CPU board > for the PDP-11/83 or the PDP-11/93? I thought that the PDP-11/83 > never had memory on the CPU board (assuming that the cache is not > regarded as memory). > > This aspect of the thread is probably no longer relevant, I just wanted > to note that PMI memory can be used with what most individuals would > consider to be a PDP-11/73 (naturally a quad) board and the PMI > aspect of the memory will be activated when the PMI memory is > installed ABOVE the CPU board. > > Also when PMI memory is installed BELOW the backplane, it is then > used as normal Qbus memory in a Qbus system. I can't see anyone > doing that, but it is allowed. > > Jerome Fine > > I suspect it is using this board. M7554-02-KDJ11-DB-WITH-1-5MB-MEMORY-ON-BOARD-USED http://www.ebay.com/itm/161791207076 I am guessing the 1.5mb isn't cache, but is system memory on this board. There is also the KDJ11-BF which has no memory on board. M8190-AE. thanks Jim From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 13:27:10 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 20:27:10 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <4e3d06ed-a403-0b87-6c06-16d41cdcb61c@jwsss.com> References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> <5751AC3F.4090905@compsys.to> <4e3d06ed-a403-0b87-6c06-16d41cdcb61c@jwsss.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: jwsmobile Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 7:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/94-E On 6/3/2016 9:11 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >On 03/06/2016 16:43, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> >> Hi its a KDJ11-B all memory on CPU board >> >> Rod > > I am very confused. Is your mention of memory on the CPU board > for the PDP-11/83 or the PDP-11/93? I thought that the PDP-11/83 > never had memory on the CPU board (assuming that the cache is not > regarded as memory). > > This aspect of the thread is probably no longer relevant, I just wanted > to note that PMI memory can be used with what most individuals would > consider to be a PDP-11/73 (naturally a quad) board and the PMI > aspect of the memory will be activated when the PMI memory is > installed ABOVE the CPU board. > > Also when PMI memory is installed BELOW the backplane, it is then > used as normal Qbus memory in a Qbus system. I can't see anyone > doing that, but it is allowed. > > Jerome Fine > > I suspect it is using this board. M7554-02-KDJ11-DB-WITH-1-5MB-MEMORY-ON-BOARD-USED http://www.ebay.com/itm/161791207076 I am guessing the 1.5mb isn't cache, but is system memory on this board. There is also the KDJ11-BF which has no memory on board. M8190-AE. thanks Jim ---- Nope, the M7554 is the PDP-11/53 CPU. The 11/83 had its memory on the bus (either left or right of the module). The 11/94 did NOT have memory on the bus, because *all* memory is on the CPU module itself. Note that there are two versions of the 11/94. One with 2 MB RAM and one with 4 MB RAM (all that can be addressed!). The 2 MB version and the 4 MB version are identical, just half the RAM chip population is not placed. However, all through-hole pins are soldered so the upgrade from 2 MB to 4 MB would be a real PITA, *if* you'd try it at all! - Henk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 3 14:14:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 12:14:36 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> On 06/03/2016 09:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, what's the big hurry? > Remember when getting same day turn-around on batch processing jobs was > an improvement? Then there's "hybrid sneakernet"--using a more up-to-date storage medium such as CF or SD card and carrying it across the room. Gives new meaning to the paradigm of "a station wagon loaded with 9-track tapes". --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 3 14:18:07 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 12:18:07 -0700 Subject: 2.8M Floppy (Was: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - In-Reply-To: <5751234B.9090607@sydex.com> References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <5750D3EB.7000306@sydex.com> <5751234B.9090607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5751D7EF.50403@sydex.com> On 06/02/2016 11:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At any rate, I'll check my copy of the printed manual and see if it > says anything about ED floppies. I checked my July, 1988 first edition PC DOS 4.0 manual and it doesn't mention ED floppies at all. So ED must have come in during one of the (several) corrective service updates. I haven't booted up 4.0 to see if DRIVPARM or DRIVER understands the reference to ED, however. Printed manuals longa, Software brevis. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 14:19:46 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 15:19:46 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 3:14 PM Subject: Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? > On 06/03/2016 09:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> But, what's the big hurry? >> Remember when getting same day turn-around on batch processing jobs was >> an improvement? > > Then there's "hybrid sneakernet"--using a more up-to-date storage medium > such as CF or SD card and carrying it across the room. Gives new > meaning to the paradigm of "a station wagon loaded with 9-track tapes". > > --Chuck > How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20) cigarette box filled with microSD cards? m From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 3 14:33:47 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 12:33:47 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? In-Reply-To: <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: <5751DB9B.3020206@sydex.com> On 06/03/2016 12:19 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20) > cigarette box filled with microSD cards? Silly. A station wagon, empty or full, is bigger than a cigarette box, so the answer must be close to zero... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 3 14:41:05 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 12:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep^M ? In-Reply-To: <5751DB9B.3020206@sydex.com> References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> <5751DB9B.3020206@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On 06/03/2016 12:19 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20) >> cigarette box filled with microSD cards? On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Silly. A station wagon, empty or full, is bigger than a cigarette box, > so the answer must be close to zero... Even if you leave out the station wagon itself, far less than one 9-track tapes will fit into a cigarette box. If you unspooled the tape, you might be able to fit hundreds of feet of the tape into the box. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 15:21:45 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:21:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20) > cigarette box filled with microSD cards? Station wagon full of tapes = 51 GB Pack of stogies full of SD = 2816 GB It's not fair using 9-track tapes, but let's go with it. Let's consider the Ford Focus SE station wagon which has 95.7 cubic feet of passenger space and 35.2 cubic feet in the back with all the seats up. So, that's 130.9 ft^2 total. We'll keep the seats up so we can use them as pillars to strap down mounds of tapes. We don't want them sliding around, being damaged, or flying up and smacking the rear of our head. That volume probably includes the driver, but let's assume we can make up for the driver's volume by shifting some tapes to the top of the vehicle in a plastic tub and strapping them down. Also, screw having a passenger. This is a Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas style cross-country escape from the weasels kinda drive. Solo, baby. Now, let's consider a 9-track tape, at 3600 feet (longest one I could find), with a density of 6250 CPI. That should give us 220MB according to multiple sources, but hey, spot check me. Now that reel should be a 10.5" wide by 5/8" thick. If my math is right, that's 6.56 cubic inches. If I take the space in the wagon and try to get my units aligned, that means 1570.8 in^3. Thus, after division = 239 tapes (even!). So, @220MB that's 51.34GB. Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s. So, we'll go with the standard size. That's @ 6.51 cubic inches, methinks (2 1/8th wide x 3.5" tall x 7/8ths thick). A standard SD card is 32mm x 24mm x 1mm. Because of the dimensions of the cigarette box doesn't quite factor out to hold the SD cards perfectly square, you're not going to be able to pack it completely full. If my math is right, you could fit two columns in there with about a 1/4th inch of slack. You can, unfortunately, only get two rows stacked in there because you end up with about 16.6mm worth of slack at the top (about 5/8ths of an inch). Now, with the cigarette pack being 7/8ths thick (about 22mm), we can fit 22 SD cards in one stack and we can shoehorn four stacks in our pack. Yeah, the extra plastic is probably bigger than 1mm and it's going to bulge a bit, but that's cool. That means we can get 88 SD cards in there. Now, we smoke Marlboros, like freakin' John Wayne. Thus, we can't really afford the fancy schmancy 128G cards, plus we aren't sure if our destination drive can read that huge size card, so let's stick with cheap-az 32G cards. That's 2816 GB. So what did I screw up? :-) -Swift From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 15:29:30 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 17:29:30 -0300 Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: <5751E8AA.7040705@gmail.com> On 2016-06-03 5:21 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Mike Stein wrote: >> How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20) >> cigarette box filled with microSD cards? > Station wagon full of tapes = 51 GB > Pack of stogies full of SD = 2816 GB > > It's not fair using 9-track tapes, but let's go with it. > > Let's consider the Ford Focus SE station wagon which has 95.7 cubic feet > of passenger space and 35.2 cubic feet in the back with all the seats up. > So, that's 130.9 ft^2 total. We'll keep the seats up so we can use them > as pillars to strap down mounds of tapes. We don't want them sliding > around, being damaged, or flying up and smacking the rear of our head. > That volume probably includes the driver, but let's assume we can make up > for the driver's volume by shifting some tapes to the top of the vehicle > in a plastic tub and strapping them down. Also, screw having a passenger. > This is a Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas style cross-country escape from > the weasels kinda drive. Solo, baby. > > Now, let's consider a 9-track tape, at 3600 feet (longest one I could > find), with a density of 6250 CPI. That should give us 220MB according to > multiple sources, but hey, spot check me. Now that reel should be a 10.5" > wide by 5/8" thick. If my math is right, that's 6.56 cubic inches. If I > take the space in the wagon and try to get my units aligned, that means > 1570.8 in^3. Thus, after division = 239 tapes (even!). So, @220MB that's > 51.34GB. > > Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of > a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened > smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s. So, we'll go with the standard size. > That's @ 6.51 cubic inches, methinks (2 1/8th wide x 3.5" tall x 7/8ths > thick). A standard SD card is 32mm x 24mm x 1mm. Because of the dimensions > of the cigarette box doesn't quite factor out to hold the SD cards > perfectly square, you're not going to be able to pack it completely full. > If my math is right, you could fit two columns in there with about a 1/4th > inch of slack. You can, unfortunately, only get two rows stacked in there > because you end up with about 16.6mm worth of slack at the top (about > 5/8ths of an inch). Now, with the cigarette pack being 7/8ths thick (about > 22mm), we can fit 22 SD cards in one stack and we can shoehorn four stacks > in our pack. Yeah, the extra plastic is probably bigger than 1mm and it's > going to bulge a bit, but that's cool. That means we can get 88 SD cards > in there. Now, we smoke Marlboros, like freakin' John Wayne. Thus, we > can't really afford the fancy schmancy 128G cards, plus we aren't sure if > our destination drive can read that huge size card, so let's stick with > cheap-az 32G cards. That's 2816 GB. > > So what did I screw up? :-) > > -Swift > Lets not forget that there was no improvement in density of 1/2 inch reel since the early 1970s, if they applied modern recording techniques the capacity of 1/2" reel would be greatly improved, the raw capacity of LTO cartridges is up to about 8TB per cartridge (they quote 16TB compressed but usually that is based on an unrealistic 2:1 compression). 2400 ft reels where more standard the extended length tapes used thinner media that was problematic in some drives. Paul. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 3 16:15:43 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: >> How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20) >> cigarette box filled with microSD cards? On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > Station wagon full of tapes = 51 GB > Pack of stogies full of SD = 2816 GB > > It's not fair using 9-track tapes, but let's go with it. > Let's consider the Ford Focus SE station wagon which has 95.7 cubic feet > of passenger space and 35.2 cubic feet in the back with all the seats up. > So, that's 130.9 ft^2 total. That should be 130.9 ft^3 CUBIC feet, not square feet. > Now, let's consider a 9-track tape, at 3600 feet (longest one I could > find), with a density of 6250 CPI. That should give us 220MB according to > multiple sources, but hey, spot check me. Now that reel should be a 10.5" > wide by 5/8" thick. If my math is right, that's 6.56 cubic inches. If I How are you calculating that?? If it were "square", then it would be length * width * height quite a bit more than you came up with. If round, then PI * R * R However, round objects waste some space. So, assume the square or hexagon that circumscribes that circle (that they would fit in). I would not leave the back seats in. If we pack the tapes in tightly, then there is no need for any seat except driver. (Shall we assume that we do not have convenient access to an autonomous car?) I'd try to avoid that tub on the roof - gas mileage is already pretty poor. > take the space in the wagon (130.9 ft^3) and try to get my units aligned, that means 1570.8 in^3. 130.9 cubic feet (if correct) is most certainly not 1570.8 cubic inches. There are not 12 cubic inches in a cubic foot, there are 12 * 12 * 12 (1728) Therefore, 130.9 cubic feet would be 226195.2 cubic inches. > Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of > a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened > smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s. I was unaware of that. > So, we'll go with the standard size. > That's @ 6.51 cubic inches, methinks (2 1/8th wide x 3.5" tall x 7/8ths > thick). A standard SD card is 32mm x 24mm x 1mm. BUT, the original was MICRO-SD. Those will pack into the cigarette pack with far less wasted space. > can't really afford the fancy schmancy 128G cards, plus we aren't sure if > our destination drive can read that huge size card, so let's stick with > cheap-az 32G cards. agreed. Those are currently at a good price point. BUT, we will go with MICRO-SD[HC], which has more than 4 times the data capacity to physical volume, at least whe considering the more efficient packing. BUT, if we hold tightly to the original wording, Micro-SD (V Micro-SDHC) tops out at 2G each. > That's 2816 GB. > So what did I screw up? :-) cubic feet to cubic inch conversion calculation of volume of a tape use of SD[HC] instead of MICRO-SD[HC] Seagate makes a 2.5" 2TB (1.81TiB) SATA hard drive. They're a little hard to find right now, but readily available (and cheaper) if you buy their Backup-Plus-Slim, and throw away the external drive housing. Two of those is about a cigarette pack in size. I sometimes carry two of those in my shirt pocket. But, further considerations: Is this going to be a one shot transfer, or an ongoing operation? Where are the endpoints? If we assume about 50 hours to drive cross the USA, that provides a long data transfer time, whereas a cigarette pack of Micro-SDs could be in your pocket on a plane (if TSA will let you through) How many cigarette packs can you fit into an accepted carry-on bag? (Nobody wants to pay excess for baggage!) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 3 16:34:31 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:34:31 -0700 Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: <5751F7E7.9060801@sydex.com> On 06/03/2016 01:21 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > So what did I screw up? :-) Well, one thing that I note is that only an idiot transports valuable data on "loose" 2400' 10.5" reels. Some sort of retention mechanism is desirable, say, a Wright Line-style poly band with hanger hook. That raises the thickness of the reel to 7/8" and the diameter to about 10 7/8" if you can find some way to minimize the effect of the closure mechanism. This is better than the hard-plastic cases, which could get to be quite thick or the 3M hard plastic wraparound protectors, which can approach 1 1/8" in height. Note that this is nothing more than yours truly grabbing the first couple of tapes off a pile and measuring. As Will mentioned, 3600' tapes were nothing but trouble. I do know that I can fit 6 10.5" reels of tape and their cases in my old Samsonite briefcase, having done it many times. I wonder how a 727 with one passenger with 6 2400' tapes flying between San Jose and Dulles compares in bandwidth... --Chuck From martin at shackspace.de Fri Jun 3 04:58:38 2016 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 11:58:38 +0200 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160531013914.GA424@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <20160531013914.GA424@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <20160603095838.GA19356@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hi all! David Gesswein: > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 10:42:29PM +0200, Martin Peters wrote: > > I wanted to reactivate a TI Professional Computer (TIPC) and all I get > > some seconds after powering it on is the message > > > > "** system error ** 0004" > > > > and a beep, lasting for about 2 seconds. > > > > The TIPC is an early, not really compatible clone of the IBM PC 5150. I > > wonder if I need to do some reengineering and/or disassembling or if > > there is a service manual out there. > > > I didn't find them in the technical reference but did find a list in the > bios listing. If I read that correctly its interrupt or timers failed. > Should be LED ON OFF OFF. On Tuesday we replaced the 8253 and the 8259 and the error was still there. Yesterday we took a closer look at the Maintenance Manual (s/o sent me via PM on Wednesday) and the ROM-listing and it seems there is a c&p-error in table 4-3 on page 4-9: --- snip --- 11111111 RAM - All bits failed ON OFF OFF 00000000 Interrupt controller failure ON OFF ON 00000001 Invalid interrupt 00000010 NMI interrupt failure 00000100 Timer interrupt failure 00001000 FDC interrupt failure --- snap --- It should be: --- snip --- 11111111 RAM - All bits failed ON OFF OFF 00000000 Interrupt controller failure 00000001 Invalid interrupt 00000010 NMI interrupt failure 00000100 Timer interrupt failure 00001000 FDC interrupt failure --- snap --- We measure the additional diagnostic information on the onboard parallel port and it turned out, it was a FDC interrupt failure. After replacing the 1793 on the motherboard, the "** system error ** - 0004" message was gone. \o/ Now, there is a "** keyboard error ** - 0010", sometimes "0011" and the system boots to the DOS-Prompt of the installed MS-DOS 2.11 anyway, but it is not possible to enter commands. The CAPS key works, so I think, the keyboard is not damaged (at least not substantially). I think, the transceiver components on the mainboard have blown. When I tested the TI PC the first time (about two years ago), I suspected the "** system error ** - 0004" to be a keyboard error, so I tested it with a PC-keyboard (bad idea!), not knowing the TI PC being a very special non-IBM-compatible device :-( The 8251 is already replaced unsuccessfully, so the next step is to change the receiver and transmitter on the mainboard. I'll report. Greetings, Martin From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 05:20:09 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 06:20:09 -0400 Subject: 2 x Sparcstation LX and Ultra Enterprise 2 available in Sweden. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whereabouts in Sweden? I'm going to G?teborg this month, and would be interested in the LX. Op 3 jun. 2016 12:16 p.m. schreef "Greg Stark" : > On 3 Jun 2016 10:55 am, "Mattis Lind" wrote: > > > > The location is Sweden. > > Isn't Sweden kind of a big place? > From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Fri Jun 3 08:26:16 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 13:26:16 +0000 Subject: HP 9845B Model 100 PSU - looking for transformer Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437305945B4@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Hi, I have got a 9845B which has a defective power supply unit - obviously a very common problem. After replacing the cracking epoxy capacitors I found that the mains transformer seems to have a broken input winding. Maybe someone tried to run it at 220V using the 110V input selector switch. What I am now looking for is a defective PSU with a good transformer, resp. just the transformer which may also have been used in other HP devices.. The transformer is located on the PSU mother board between the two large capacitors. It has the part number "9100-4037" and the date code "8-81" printed on it. It has two input windings and three output windings. Thus the output is a bit different (one additional winding compared to Tony Duells schematics). Maybe someone can help? Martin From spc at conman.org Fri Jun 3 17:09:58 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 18:09:58 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <176D4B7C3850476D92D4B13D33C3351D@TeoPC> Message-ID: <20160603220958.GA24553@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, TeoZ wrote: > > The ultimate gaming 486 would have an EISA+VLB motherboard. > > Yes, I would agree on that. However, since I'm mostly interested in > running older Unix variants and DOS, games aren't at the top of my value > system. Don't get me wrong, I love games, and I'd surely have a few loaded > with DOS. However, I'm looking for something special. I have this foggy > memory of a small, white, NEC (or maybe it was NCR, or or or... crap. I > just can't remember) slimline desktop machine that was a 486 and had a > SCSI2 interface right on the mobo and had an external SCSI2 header, too. I > know it had two or three expansion slots, but I didn't get to pop open the > box to look at what kind of slots they were. I've been google image > searching for a while trying to find it again. I saw them while doing some > contract job back in the 90's. The green LED on a SCSI terminator caught > my eye (as well as the fact that I liked the case design). Sounds somewhat similar to the server (email and web, on the public Internet co-located) I used up through 2004-5. It was an NCR-3230 system and was a 486. I used a similar unit at home as a router (fun times getting three network cards working on the thing). http://www.flummux.org/images/tower/index.html -spc (I think I had that for five, six years. And the few times I had to reboot it was due to moving it, or someone tripping over the power cord. It was a robust little box.) From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 17:29:13 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:29:13 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: New info, then commentary: Station Wagon full of tapes = 302.64 GB Cigarette pack full of microSD = 880 GB * Corrected volume calcs (least I think I did) * Switched to 2400 ft tapes with 3M cases (thanks Chuck) * Switched to MicroSD (but no SDHC) so.. 2G only Okay, now the commentary and updated logic. :-) On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > That should be 130.9 ft^3 CUBIC feet, not square feet. Ah, quite right. Typo there. However, I got the specs from Ford and the units were ft^3. > > multiple sources, but hey, spot check me. Now that reel should be a 10.5" > > wide by 5/8" thick. If my math is right, that's 6.56 cubic inches. If I > > How are you calculating that?? > If it were "square", then it would be length * width * height > quite a bit more than you came up with. > If round, then PI * R * R Hmm, yes, but I don't think we could pack them in there in any clever way that might make use of the round edges. So, I kinda figured them square. I used the dimensions from here, but you are still right. I only got in^2 not in^3, so we are talking 10.5 * 10.5 * .6250 = 68.9062 in^3. > However, round objects waste some space. So, assume the square or > hexagon that circumscribes that circle (that they would fit in). Yes, my thinking exactly, I just have bad execution on the arithmetic. > I would not leave the back seats in. If we pack the tapes in tightly, > then there is no need for any seat except driver. I wonder if that Focus Wagon has folding seats we could just fold down. That's going to be a lot easier, but still packing is going to be a lot easier with the seats out, granted. > (Shall we assume that we do not have convenient access to an autonomous > car?) I'd try to avoid that tub on the roof - gas mileage is already > pretty poor. Hmm, true. However, I haven't figured out what all this is going to cost us, yet, anyway. :-) > > take the space in the wagon (130.9 ft^3) and try to get my units > aligned, that means 1570.8 in^3. > 130.9 cubic feet (if correct) is most certainly not 1570.8 cubic inches. > There are not 12 cubic inches in a cubic foot, there are 12 * 12 * 12 > (1728) > Therefore, 130.9 cubic feet would be 226195.2 cubic inches. Ah, yes, I had a niggly feeling about that, okay, totally correct, of course. I'll adjust accordingly. It'll be a huge delta from my original swag. > > Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of > > a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened > > smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s. > I was unaware of that. I'm hetero; so we stay away from 100's or 101's. If other folks aren't we'll need to make adjustments since the pack is probably going to hold a few more SD's. > > So, we'll go with the standard size. > > That's @ 6.51 cubic inches, methinks (2 1/8th wide x 3.5" tall x 7/8ths > > thick). A standard SD card is 32mm x 24mm x 1mm. > BUT, the original was MICRO-SD. Those will pack into the cigarette pack with > far less wasted space. Yes, true. I intentionally went to SD cards because the damn micro SDs have a fiddly shape and will be a horror trying to pack in there. However, since there is an audience, I'll adjust. (I didn't think anyone would actually read/check). > > can't really afford the fancy schmancy 128G cards, plus we aren't sure if > > our destination drive can read that huge size card, so let's stick with > > cheap-az 32G cards. > > agreed. Those are currently at a good price point. BUT, we will go with > MICRO-SD[HC], which has more than 4 times the data capacity to physical > volume, at least whe considering the more efficient packing. Okay, but I'm going to count them as square, even if it's just the little notch sticking out. > BUT, if we hold tightly to the original wording, Micro-SD (V Micro-SDHC) > tops out at 2G each. Well, he did originally say MicroSD, not SDHC, and when we get to Rhode Island, I don't want to have to wonder if our client has an SDHC capable reader, so I'm going to go ahead and standardize on the 2G units. > Seagate makes a 2.5" 2TB (1.81TiB) SATA hard drive. They're a little > hard to find right now, but readily available (and cheaper) if you buy > their Backup-Plus-Slim, and throw away the external drive housing. Two > of those is about a cigarette pack in size. I sometimes carry two of > those in my shirt pocket. I use those too. Love them. > But, further considerations: > Is this going to be a one shot transfer, or an ongoing operation? I'm going to add to the narrative and we'll say it's our first time to establish the process, but after that it'll be ongoing if we don't smell too much like a chain smoker when we arrive to the client and get fired. > Where are the endpoints? We'll start at King Discount Cigarettes in LA. That's: 10662 Riverside Dr, North Hollywood, CA 91602 The client is Rhode Island Hospital. It's: 593 Eddy St, Providence, RI 02903 Distance = 2971 miles on I-40, but I'd rather take I-80 so we can swing by my place in Colorado on the way. So, that's actually 2998 miles. Sorry, but hey, Colorado is more scenic and we have legal, uh, stuff there! I did warn this was a Hunter S. Thompson sort of trip. We just have to be sober when we get to RI, that's it. > If we assume about 50 hours to drive cross the USA, that provides a long > data transfer time, Google says 45h on the trip, but I'm game for using 50 since I need to stop and, uhm, pee a lot. Plus, there are some really great retro computer sites along the way! So, yeah, 50h. > whereas a cigarette pack of Micro-SDs could be in your pocket on a plane > (if TSA will let you through) How many cigarette packs can you fit into > an accepted carry-on bag? (Nobody wants to pay excess for baggage!) Some notes for folks really checking: 130.9 ft^3 == 226195.2 in^3 == Space in the Ford Focus SE Wagon 10.5 * 10.5 * 1.125 = 124.03 in^3 for the 9-track tapes (thanks to Chuck Guzis we've updated, we are definitely using the 3M wraparounds, protectors on our 9-tracks now - we gotta do this right, har har) We are ditching the crappy 3000 ft+ tapes and going back to the 2400 foot tapes. So, we are down to 170MB per tape. 226195.2 / 124.03 = 1823.something tapes! 1823 * 170MB = 302.64 GB -- the cigarette pack -- One Micro SD card 15mm x 11mm x 1mm = 165 mm^3 Cigarette pack 3.5" * 2 1/8 wide * 7/8" thick 88.9mm * 53.975mm * 22.31mm = 107051.79 mm^3 Rows == 53.9 / 11 = 4.9 (so that's 4) Columns == 88.9 / 15 = 5.9266 (so that's 5) So, that's 20 stacks of 1mm cards, we can get 22 in one stack. So that's 440 of them! They only go up to 2G (without SDHC) so that's 880GB! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 3 17:29:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 15:29:23 -0700 Subject: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff Message-ID: For people in the Bay Area Ian Finder had mentioned a couple of weeks ago that Weird Stuff had gotten in some MIPS systems. They put them out on the floor for $75 ea, so I got a RC3020, Magnum 3000 and Magnum 3000/33. Some had a full compliment of memory, some had some scsi disks in them. Hopefully they'll haven't been wiped, since one machine had a MIPS asset tag. There are still about 10 of them, mostly RS and RC 2030s Curious thing is all of the machines, even the RC2030 have PS/2 connectors for the kb. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 17:32:17 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:32:17 -0600 (MDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <20160603220958.GA24553@brevard.conman.org> References: <176D4B7C3850476D92D4B13D33C3351D@TeoPC> <20160603220958.GA24553@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > Sounds somewhat similar to the server (email and web, on the public > Internet co-located) I used up through 2004-5. It was an NCR-3230 > system and was a 486. Ohhh, yeah, that's a nice box! Kind of like what I'm looking for. Found a youtube video for it, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZornOKpoD0 I still can't see (cords in the way) if that guy had a SCSI adapter onboard. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 17:35:41 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:35:41 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: <5751F7E7.9060801@sydex.com> References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> <5751F7E7.9060801@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, one thing that I note is that only an idiot transports valuable > data on "loose" 2400' 10.5" reels. Great point. I took that into consideration with my last swag. > This is better than the hard-plastic cases, which could get to be quite > thick or the 3M hard plastic wraparound protectors, which can approach 1 > 1/8" in height. Note that this is nothing more than yours truly > grabbing the first couple of tapes off a pile and measuring. Well, we'll need 1823 of them. 3M will probably restart production in my fantasy scenario. > As Will mentioned, 3600' tapes were nothing but trouble. They are out, I'm going to be in bad enough shape after the drive, I can't deal with client whining once I get to Rhode Island. Back to 2400. > I do know that I can fit 6 10.5" reels of tape and their cases in my old > Samsonite briefcase, having done it many times. I wonder how a 727 with > one passenger with 6 2400' tapes flying between San Jose and Dulles > compares in bandwidth... Hehe, if the thread keeps going I'll have no choice but to start calculating bandwidth with throughput and latency. Sounds like more fun. :-) -Swift From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 3 18:18:58 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > Station Wagon full of tapes = 302.64 GB > Cigarette pack full of microSD = 880 GB > * Corrected volume calcs (least I think I did) > * Switched to 2400 ft tapes with 3M cases (thanks Chuck) > * Switched to MicroSD (but no SDHC) so.. 2G only >>> Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of >>> a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened >>> smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s. >> I was unaware of that. > I'm hetero; so we stay away from 100's or 101's. If other folks aren't > we'll need to make adjustments since the pack is probably going to hold a > few more SD's. You know far more about cigarettes than I do. I wasn't even aware that there was an associated sexual orientation. In Colorado, are there other kinds of cigarette packs available? >> Where are the endpoints? > We'll start at King Discount Cigarettes in LA. That's: > 10662 Riverside Dr, North Hollywood, CA 91602 > The client is Rhode Island Hospital. It's: > 593 Eddy St, Providence, RI 02903 Hmmm. > Distance = 2971 miles on I-40, but I'd rather take I-80 so we can swing by > my place in Colorado on the way. So, that's actually 2998 miles. Sorry, > but hey, Colorado is more scenic and we have legal, uh, stuff there! I did > warn this was a Hunter S. Thompson sort of trip. We just have to be sober > when we get to RI, that's it. My first choice would have been US66, but that doesn't exist any more. Second choice would have been "Lincoln Highway", which became US40, which is walking distance from my house in Berkeley, to walking distance from my sister's place in DC. But US40 is no more, either, however it can be closely approximated by I80 to SLC, then I70 east. So, we still get your stop in CO. (for you to buy cigarette packs?) > Google says 45h on the trip, but I'm game for using 50 since I need to > stop and, uhm, pee a lot. Plus, there are some really great retro computer > sites along the way! So, yeah, 50h. Double those stops. I had prostate surgery in 2014. It made Windoze updates look successful. >> whereas a cigarette pack of Micro-SDs could be in your pocket on a plane >> (if TSA will let you through) How many cigarette packs can you fit into >> an accepted carry-on bag? (Nobody wants to pay excess for baggage!) WOULD TSA permit carrying multiple memory cards? How much would we charge per GB for data transfer? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 18:57:02 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 00:57:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> <5751AC3F.4090905@compsys.to> <4e3d06ed-a403-0b87-6c06-16d41cdcb61c@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 03/06/2016 19:27, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: jwsmobile Sent: Friday, June > 03, 2016 7:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/94-E > On 6/3/2016 9:11 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> >On 03/06/2016 16:43, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> >>> > >>> Hi its a KDJ11-B all memory on CPU board >>> >>> Rod >> >> I am very confused. Is your mention of memory on the CPU board >> for the PDP-11/83 or the PDP-11/93? I thought that the PDP-11/83 >> never had memory on the CPU board (assuming that the cache is not >> regarded as memory). >> >> This aspect of the thread is probably no longer relevant, I just wanted >> to note that PMI memory can be used with what most individuals would >> consider to be a PDP-11/73 (naturally a quad) board and the PMI >> aspect of the memory will be activated when the PMI memory is >> installed ABOVE the CPU board. >> >> Also when PMI memory is installed BELOW the backplane, it is then >> used as normal Qbus memory in a Qbus system. I can't see anyone >> doing that, but it is allowed. >> >> Jerome Fine >> >> > I suspect it is using this board. > > M7554-02-KDJ11-DB-WITH-1-5MB-MEMORY-ON-BOARD-USED > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/161791207076 > > I am guessing the 1.5mb isn't cache, but is system memory on this board. > > There is also the KDJ11-BF which has no memory on board. M8190-AE. > > thanks > Jim > > ---- > Nope, the M7554 is the PDP-11/53 CPU. > The 11/83 had its memory on the bus (either left or right of the module). > The 11/94 did NOT have memory on the bus, because *all* memory is > on the CPU module itself. Note that there are two versions of the 11/94. > One with 2 MB RAM and one with 4 MB RAM (all that can be addressed!). > The 2 MB version and the 4 MB version are identical, just half the RAM > chip > population is not placed. However, all through-hole pins are soldered so > the upgrade from 2 MB to 4 MB would be a real PITA, *if* you'd try it > at all! > > - Henk > Hi I concur. 1. All my comments all relate to the KJD11-E M8981-BA CPU BOARD 2. Everything is on*_one _*board 3 18Mhz Processor, 4Mb memory, six serial lines, console port, monitor prom, boot proms etc. 4. In an 11/94-E the Qbus section contains this one CPU board and a small power (M9714) sense board. There are no other QBus boards of any sort or kind in this section. Third slot is empty and then next is the UBA (Q to Unibus adapter) From there on its all Unibus 5. See http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1194/EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf So back to the job in hand. I had had for some time an 11/94 chassis with every thing bar the CPU. The KJD11-E M8981-BA. I recently managed to obtain one of these boards. You would think my problems were over. No so sad to say. We need to take into account these boards can also be used in Qbus only systems. So I installed the board in the 11/94 chassis and connected to the cables already there. Two cables go off to the serial I/O panel at the back of the system carrying the six serial lines, console line and the startup two digit diagnostic display. There's also a dip switch to set console parameters. Another smaller cable goes off to the front panel to repeat the startup two digit diagnostic display. SFSG... Reading the manual for both the CPU card and the 11/94-E system I found that in the Qbus section Is just the CPU and a power sensing board ( M9714). Next comes the UBA and then UNIBUS slots. I installed a MX211 RX02 UNIBUS controller in the first slot. Pulled the NPR jumper from underneath (as required for the MX211) and filled the next three slots with grant cards. Grant card is G7273 in C/D correct? The final slot contains a UNIBUS termination card and a Minimum Load card as per manual. OK so turn on the system. Numeric Display counts down from 77 to 04. Look up code 04. Normal operation processor is fetching and executing instructions. Look at console screen starts off ok then differs from manual. I cannot get system to talk to UNIBUS Controllers Rod From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 19:32:26 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 19:32:26 -0500 Subject: Need 2x20 DIP header (40 pin, as for IDE) Message-ID: Anyone have a spare 2x20 (40 pin) DIP header they can stick in an envelope? I'm checking eBay and all I see are 10-packs and/or silly shipping. I believe this is the standard board-mount IDE connector? Either gold or bright tin plating are fine. Happy to reimburse you for the cost of the part & 1st Class stamp! ;-) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 20:38:19 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 20:38:19 -0500 Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: u reliuze theres 64gb and 128gb sd cards now right? On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> Station Wagon full of tapes = 302.64 GB >> Cigarette pack full of microSD = 880 GB >> * Corrected volume calcs (least I think I did) >> * Switched to 2400 ft tapes with 3M cases (thanks Chuck) >> * Switched to MicroSD (but no SDHC) so.. 2G only >> > > Now for the cigarette box. I'm going to assume you mean the dimensions of >>>> a *pack* of cigarettes, and since we are all really cool enlightened >>>> smoker-people, we don't smoke 100s. >>>> >>> I was unaware of that. >>> >> I'm hetero; so we stay away from 100's or 101's. If other folks aren't >> we'll need to make adjustments since the pack is probably going to hold a >> few more SD's. >> > > You know far more about cigarettes than I do. I wasn't even aware that > there was an associated sexual orientation. > > In Colorado, are there other kinds of cigarette packs available? > > Where are the endpoints? >>> >> We'll start at King Discount Cigarettes in LA. That's: >> 10662 Riverside Dr, North Hollywood, CA 91602 >> The client is Rhode Island Hospital. It's: >> 593 Eddy St, Providence, RI 02903 >> > > Hmmm. > > Distance = 2971 miles on I-40, but I'd rather take I-80 so we can swing by >> my place in Colorado on the way. So, that's actually 2998 miles. Sorry, >> but hey, Colorado is more scenic and we have legal, uh, stuff there! I did >> warn this was a Hunter S. Thompson sort of trip. We just have to be sober >> when we get to RI, that's it. >> > > My first choice would have been US66, but that doesn't exist any more. > Second choice would have been "Lincoln Highway", which became US40, which > is walking distance from my house in Berkeley, to walking distance from my > sister's place in DC. > But US40 is no more, either, however it can be closely approximated by I80 > to SLC, then I70 east. > So, we still get your stop in CO. (for you to buy cigarette packs?) > > > Google says 45h on the trip, but I'm game for using 50 since I need to >> stop and, uhm, pee a lot. Plus, there are some really great retro computer >> sites along the way! So, yeah, 50h. >> > > Double those stops. I had prostate surgery in 2014. It made Windoze > updates look successful. > > > whereas a cigarette pack of Micro-SDs could be in your pocket on a plane >>> (if TSA will let you through) How many cigarette packs can you fit into >>> an accepted carry-on bag? (Nobody wants to pay excess for baggage!) >>> >> > WOULD TSA permit carrying multiple memory cards? > > > How much would we charge per GB for data transfer? > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 3 21:06:42 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 19:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Adrian Stoness wrote: > u reliuze theres 64gb and 128gb sd cards now right? Micro-SD (and SD), as was specified originally, is up to 2GB. (FAT12 and FAT16) OFFICIALLY: https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/capacity/ Above 2GB, up to 32GB, you have Micro-SDHC (and SDHC) (FAT32) More than 32GB, up to 2TB, is Micro-SDXC and SDXC (exFAT) So, therefore, since the original challenge said "Micro-SD cards", there is a technicality limiting to 2GB. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 21:42:20 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 22:42:20 -0400 Subject: MINC-11 boards Message-ID: I have some rather rough set of MINC boards - A/D, D/A, digital, and clock. These were outside for some time in California. Not super rusty, but weather worn. I think you could clean them up. Trade for? I could use some R, S, and B modules. Other interesting stuff? -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jun 3 21:59:13 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 22:59:13 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> <5751AC3F.4090905@compsys.to> <4e3d06ed-a403-0b87-6c06-16d41cdcb61c@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <57524401.8050905@compsys.to> >Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: jwsmobile Sent: Friday, June > 03, 2016 7:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/94-E > On 6/3/2016 9:11 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> >On 03/06/2016 16:43, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> >>> > > >>> Hi its a KDJ11-B all memory on CPU board >>> >>> Rod >> >> >> I am very confused. Is your mention of memory on the CPU board >> for the PDP-11/83 or the PDP-11/93? I thought that the PDP-11/83 >> never had memory on the CPU board (assuming that the cache is not >> regarded as memory). >> >> This aspect of the thread is probably no longer relevant, I just wanted >> to note that PMI memory can be used with what most individuals would >> consider to be a PDP-11/73 (naturally a quad) board and the PMI >> aspect of the memory will be activated when the PMI memory is >> installed ABOVE the CPU board. >> >> Also when PMI memory is installed BELOW the backplane, it is then >> used as normal Qbus memory in a Qbus system. I can't see anyone >> doing that, but it is allowed. >> >> Jerome Fine >> >> > I suspect it is using this board. > > M7554-02-KDJ11-DB-WITH-1-5MB-MEMORY-ON-BOARD-USED > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/161791207076 > > I am guessing the 1.5mb isn't cache, but is system memory on this board. > > There is also the KDJ11-BF which has no memory on board. M8190-AE. > > thanks > Jim > > ---- > Nope, the M7554 is the PDP-11/53 CPU. > The 11/83 had its memory on the bus (either left or right of the module). > The 11/94 did NOT have memory on the bus, because *all* memory is > on the CPU module itself. Note that there are two versions of the 11/94. > One with 2 MB RAM and one with 4 MB RAM (all that can be addressed!). > The 2 MB version and the 4 MB version are identical, just half the RAM > chip > population is not placed. However, all through-hole pins are soldered so > the upgrade from 2 MB to 4 MB would be a real PITA, *if* you'd try it > at all! > > - Henk Thank you for the clarification. I knew that the PDP-11/53 held on board memory, but I just could not remember that the last two digits were "53". One other minor clarification that probably most remember, but maybe a few individuals don't. The CPU boards for both the PDP-11/83 and the PDP-11/93 are almost always used in Qbus only systems. In very rare situations, a Qnivertor may also be present to support using the system with Unibus hardware, but that situation would be unusual. The PDP-11/84 and PDP-11/94 use the identical CPU boards, but are configured to include a Qnivertor (as Rod Smallwood mentions in another post) and would rarely include any Qbus boards. In addition, for the PDP-11/84, the PMI memory is different from the memory used in the PDP-11/83 and there are probably no free Qbus slots for any additional Qbus boards. For the PDP-11/94, there seems to be a couple of free slots still available, but since they are not normal Qbus slots (they are specifically designed for the PMI memory used in the PDP-11/84 after all), standard Qbus boards may not work correctly. I just wanted to mention those aspects for PDP-11/83, PDP-11/93, PDP-11/84 and PDP-11/94 users. Please mention if I have made any mistakes in my description. Jerome Fine From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 22:40:23 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 20:40:23 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: <57524401.8050905@compsys.to> References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> <5751AC3F.4090905@compsys.to> <4e3d06ed-a403-0b87-6c06-16d41cdcb61c@jwsss.com> <57524401.8050905@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 7:59 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > In addition, for the PDP-11/84, the PMI memory is different from the memory used in the PDP-11/83 The MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are documented as being compatible with both the PDP-11/84 and Q-bus systems. The documented restriction is that the MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC are only compatible with PDP-11/84 systems and incompatible with Q-bus systems. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/oemMicronotes.pdf uNote # 028 MSV11-Q/M/J MEMORY COMPARISONS MSV11-J ------- The MSV11-J has four versions, the MSV11-JB and the MSV11-JC which are used in the PDP-11/84 UNIBUS systems and the MSV11-JD and the MSV11-JE are used in either the MicroPDP-11/83 Q-bus systems, or the PDP-11/84 UNIBUS systems. All four modules use ECC memory for error correction, as well as using 256K bit MOS RAM parts on either a half for fully populated quad size module. NOTE: ----- NONE OF THE FOUR MSV11-J MODULES CAN BE PLACED IN A Q/Q BACKPLANE SLOT. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL BE DONE TO THE BOARDS AND TO THE SYSTEM. The MSV11-JB (M8637-BA) is a half populated quad size PMI memory module containing 1MB of memory. The second version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JC (M8637-CA), this is a fully populated MSV11-JB quad size PMI memory module containing 2MB of memory. These two module can not be used in a Q-bus system due to gate array incompatibilities, and can only be used in the PDP-11/84 systems which use the UNIBUS/PMI bus interface (KTJ11-A). The third version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JD (M8637-DA) which is a half populated quad size PMI memory module containing 1MB of memory. The last version of the MSV11 J is the MSV11-JE, (M8637-EA) which is a fully populated MSV11-JD quad size PMI memory module containing 2MB of memory. These last two modules can be used with either the MicroPDP-11/83 system which uses the Q-bus/PMI bus interface or the PDP-11/84 system which was mentioned above. Although the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are PMI memories they can be used in two other Q-bus configurations. (more details follow...) From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 22:47:41 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 05:47:41 +0200 Subject: Station wagon full of tapes vs cigarette pack (was Re: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep) In-Reply-To: References: <5751A732.5090400@sydex.com> <5751D71C.6080106@sydex.com> <6C8EC1C5D654442E9EB431129831695C@310e2> Message-ID: On 3 June 2016 at 22:21, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Mike Stein wrote: >> How many station wagons full of 9-track tapes would fit into a (20) >> cigarette box filled with microSD cards? > > Station wagon full of tapes = 51 GB > Pack of stogies full of SD = 2816 GB > > It's not fair using 9-track tapes, but let's go with it. I actually used to drive from A to B or the other way with a car (sometimes a station wagon) with tapes. 1" tapes, usually. This was in Italy, and at the time (don't know if it's changed since then) I was required to keep paperworks not too different from customs forms, with the tapes. The reason was that to transport an amount of data over a certain limit required documentation, according to the law. Those very large spools of 1" tapes could hold quite an amount of data, for the time, thus the documentation. I didn't need it for just a few CCTs. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Jun 3 22:51:44 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 20:51:44 -0700 Subject: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F7E0FFB-CAE3-4EC6-8CDE-7FE8F7790B1F@eschatologist.net> On Jun 3, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > For people in the Bay Area > > Ian Finder had mentioned a couple of weeks ago that Weird Stuff had gotten in some > MIPS systems. They put them out on the floor for $75 ea, so I got a RC3020, Magnum 3000 > and Magnum 3000/33. Congratulations on the score! MIPS systems are actually the first interesting thing I saw at Weird Stuff back in 1995. Is there a specific schedule on which Weird Stuff puts things out on the floor? I didn't see them last Saturday, maybe I need to go a different day if I want anything good? -- Chris From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Jun 3 21:02:22 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 22:02:22 -0400 Subject: AJRLADO diskless controller test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160604020222.GA28854@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, May 06, 2016 at 09:47:47AM +0200, Anders Sandahl wrote: > Hi, > > I tried to run the diskless controller test on my PDP8/A. It fails before > any tests has been executed. I suspect that my RL8A controller is broken. > The CPU tests and the memory tests works fine. > > The test stopped @ address 5713 (display shows 5714), MD buff = 7402, AC = 0 > > Does anybody have the source code to this test? Earlier someone got the > test instructions photographed from microfishie. > Hopefully you got it fixed by now. I had misfiled the fiche and took me a while to find it. Looks to be a power fail fault. I have added the relavent pages to http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/rldiags/ajrlado2.zip in http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/rldiags/ Seq18 is where you can see the interrupt jumps to PWRFAL Seq75 is PWRFAL where it checks that the interrupt is a power fail and then halts waiting for a power up restart. > The complete story is that the machine worked just fine, booted OS/8. Then > I changed the CPU from KK8A -> KK8E. The KK8E had some problems, but works > fine now. But now the machine doesn't boot OS/8 with any of the CPU's. The > diskless controller test stops at the same location with any CPU. > Do you have a KP8E power fail installed? I would think with a KK8E without KP8E that you shouldn't get to that halt since the SPL shouldn't skip so it will go to impossible interrupt. You can look at memory location 0 to see where it was executing when it got the interrupt. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Fri Jun 3 21:31:06 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 22:31:06 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?E=31=30K=3F?= Message-ID: Just checking around if anyone has an E10K (or knows someone) that they aren't all that fond of. I've been looking for one for the past year or so but all the units i ever come across are missing SSP's. Pretty much my only requirement is a working SSP, the rest i can sort through. Thanks, Alex McWhirter From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 4 00:17:44 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 06:17:44 +0100 Subject: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff In-Reply-To: <5F7E0FFB-CAE3-4EC6-8CDE-7FE8F7790B1F@eschatologist.net> References: <5F7E0FFB-CAE3-4EC6-8CDE-7FE8F7790B1F@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <00fb01d1be20$6d2aafc0$47800f40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris > Hanson > Sent: 04 June 2016 04:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff > > On Jun 3, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > For people in the Bay Area > > > > Ian Finder had mentioned a couple of weeks ago that Weird Stuff had > > gotten in some MIPS systems. They put them out on the floor for $75 > > ea, so I got a RC3020, Magnum 3000 and Magnum 3000/33. > > Congratulations on the score! MIPS systems are actually the first interesting > thing I saw at Weird Stuff back in 1995. > > Is there a specific schedule on which Weird Stuff puts things out on the floor? > I didn't see them last Saturday, maybe I need to go a different day if I want > anything good? > > -- Chris I am going to be in Seattle this summer. Is there any equivalent place to Weird Stuff there worth visiting? Regards Rob From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Sat Jun 4 00:28:28 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 01:28:28 -0400 Subject: Floppy =?UTF-8?Q?Music=3F=20Anyone=20seen=20this=3F?= Message-ID: <45ff8776f43b5e65035df6eceda42f6a@triadic.us> Yea more or less... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kQYRquhcXU I find it really cool, probably ruins the drives but cool nonetheless. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 4 03:41:26 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 09:41:26 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/94-E In-Reply-To: References: <20160602170241.1A53718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <93da8712-918a-f191-35c7-279ec03fc16d@btinternet.com> <5751A597.4030108@compsys.to> <0946a2b1-bbe6-7aba-2d2f-2de4677e31a7@btinternet.com> <5751AC3F.4090905@compsys.to> <4e3d06ed-a403-0b87-6c06-16d41cdcb61c@jwsss.com> <57524401.8050905@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 04/06/2016 04:40, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 7:59 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> In addition, for the PDP-11/84, the PMI memory is different from the memory used in the PDP-11/83 > > The MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are documented as being compatible with both > the PDP-11/84 and Q-bus systems. The documented restriction is that > the MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC are only compatible with PDP-11/84 systems > and incompatible with Q-bus systems. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/oemMicronotes.pdf > > uNote # 028 > MSV11-Q/M/J MEMORY COMPARISONS > > MSV11-J > ------- > The MSV11-J has four versions, the MSV11-JB and the MSV11-JC which are > used in the PDP-11/84 UNIBUS systems and the MSV11-JD and the MSV11-JE > are used in either the MicroPDP-11/83 Q-bus systems, or the PDP-11/84 > UNIBUS systems. All four modules use ECC memory for error correction, > as well as using 256K bit MOS RAM parts on either a half for fully > populated quad size module. > > NOTE: > ----- > NONE OF THE FOUR MSV11-J MODULES CAN BE PLACED IN A Q/Q BACKPLANE > SLOT. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL BE DONE TO THE BOARDS > AND TO THE SYSTEM. > > The MSV11-JB (M8637-BA) is a half populated quad size PMI memory > module containing 1MB of memory. The second version of the MSV11-J is > the MSV11-JC (M8637-CA), this is a fully populated MSV11-JB quad size > PMI memory module containing 2MB of memory. These two module can not > be used in a Q-bus system due to gate array incompatibilities, and can > only be used in the PDP-11/84 systems which use the UNIBUS/PMI bus > interface (KTJ11-A). The third version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JD > (M8637-DA) which is a half populated quad size PMI memory module > containing 1MB of memory. The last version of the MSV11 J is the > MSV11-JE, (M8637-EA) which is a fully populated MSV11-JD quad size PMI > memory module containing 2MB of memory. These last two modules can be > used with either the MicroPDP-11/83 system which uses the Q-bus/PMI > bus interface or the PDP-11/84 system which was mentioned above. > > Although the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are PMI memories they can be used > in two other Q-bus configurations. > (more details follow...) I have a M8637-EH its marked 2MB Q P-BUS MOS MEM. I intend to remove the problematical KDJ11-E from the /94 (hybrid) chassis and replace it with a KDJ11-B and the M8637-EH to see if I can then get the UNIBUS controllers running. Rod From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 4 06:30:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 04:30:15 -0700 Subject: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff In-Reply-To: <5F7E0FFB-CAE3-4EC6-8CDE-7FE8F7790B1F@eschatologist.net> References: <5F7E0FFB-CAE3-4EC6-8CDE-7FE8F7790B1F@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <5752BBC7.7070909@bitsavers.org> On 6/3/16 8:51 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > Is there a specific schedule on which Weird Stuff puts things out on the floor? Nope, it's totally random. It seems nowadays they get stuff in, try to sell it on eBay, and if it doesn't move they push it to the store, or it goes out there if it's too much of a hassle to deal with on line. They've been doing this all the way back to the mid-80's when Richard Anderson (RIP) and Chuck Schutz started the place down on Phalen in San Jose, so they know what they can sell and what they can't. One problem though is they don't move enough through the store and junk that never is going to sell sits there for years. Mike at Excess Solutions moves more volume through and tries to put more stuff in the store. Halted is another place that had way too much dead stock in the old store. They moved to a smaller place a couple of months ago and ran out of space, so they don't have things like edge connectors (which they had a good selection of) out any more. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Jun 4 09:37:33 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 10:37:33 -0400 Subject: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff In-Reply-To: <00fb01d1be20$6d2aafc0$47800f40$@ntlworld.com> References: <5F7E0FFB-CAE3-4EC6-8CDE-7FE8F7790B1F@eschatologist.net> <00fb01d1be20$6d2aafc0$47800f40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1c364c6f-eb13-166b-093b-088336e399da@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-04 1:17 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris >> Hanson >> Sent: 04 June 2016 04:52 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff >> >> On Jun 3, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> >>> For people in the Bay Area >>> >>> Ian Finder had mentioned a couple of weeks ago that Weird Stuff had >>> gotten in some MIPS systems. They put them out on the floor for $75 >>> ea, so I got a RC3020, Magnum 3000 and Magnum 3000/33. >> >> Congratulations on the score! MIPS systems are actually the first > interesting >> thing I saw at Weird Stuff back in 1995. >> >> Is there a specific schedule on which Weird Stuff puts things out on the > floor? >> I didn't see them last Saturday, maybe I need to go a different day if I > want >> anything good? >> >> -- Chris > > > I am going to be in Seattle this summer. Is there any equivalent place to > Weird Stuff there worth visiting? Ian's place. He might even sell you something. :D --Toby > > Regards > > Rob > > From scaron at diablonet.net Sat Jun 4 10:43:24 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 11:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <20160603220958.GA24553@brevard.conman.org> References: <176D4B7C3850476D92D4B13D33C3351D@TeoPC> <20160603220958.GA24553@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: >> On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, TeoZ wrote: >>> The ultimate gaming 486 would have an EISA+VLB motherboard. >> >> Yes, I would agree on that. However, since I'm mostly interested in >> running older Unix variants and DOS, games aren't at the top of my value >> system. Don't get me wrong, I love games, and I'd surely have a few loaded >> with DOS. However, I'm looking for something special. I have this foggy >> memory of a small, white, NEC (or maybe it was NCR, or or or... crap. I >> just can't remember) slimline desktop machine that was a 486 and had a >> SCSI2 interface right on the mobo and had an external SCSI2 header, too. I >> know it had two or three expansion slots, but I didn't get to pop open the >> box to look at what kind of slots they were. I've been google image >> searching for a while trying to find it again. I saw them while doing some >> contract job back in the 90's. The green LED on a SCSI terminator caught >> my eye (as well as the fact that I liked the case design). > > Sounds somewhat similar to the server (email and web, on the public > Internet co-located) I used up through 2004-5. It was an NCR-3230 system > and was a 486. I used a similar unit at home as a router (fun times getting > three network cards working on the thing). > > http://www.flummux.org/images/tower/index.html > > -spc (I think I had that for five, six years. And the few times I had to > reboot it was due to moving it, or someone tripping over the power > cord. It was a robust little box.) > Weren't those old NCR systems MCA-bus? I remember having ... I think it was called a System 3300 ... I used to have one way back in the day and I remember the onboard SCSI as well - unfortunately not supported by MCA Linux at the time, much to my consternation :| Don't recall if it was a 486 machine or maybe a 386? I'm sure there were lots of variants. Best, Sean From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Jun 4 10:43:44 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 17:43:44 +0200 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> <0A75D5AC-E864-49B4-9BB2-F49AC2A550D0@orthanc.ca> <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> Message-ID: <20160604154344.GA1231@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 03:04:07PM -0700, Ali wrote: > > I was going to suggest he introduce the lad to a wide range of > > languages, especially non-procedural ones, and outliers such as Forth > > and APL. It's much easier to grasp the concepts (and joy) of things > > like functional programming if you're exposed to them before > > confirmation bias limits your acceptance of the world. > > Yes, of course that makes assumptions on my knowledge level as well.... > which does not quite extend to Forth or APL. Sorry for the late chime in, as I usually do. I am yet to read the whole thread, so if my suggestions have been already suggested by someone else, sorry for the noise too. In case my wording makes you think otherwise, those are just humble suggestions. Now, learning "older languages" bears some stigma, right? Not in my opinion, however. If you teach the young guy with intention to make him wiser, do not use cheap copout. Or at least if you must, be careful so he does not stick with it. Given what most of people here could have used as their first programming language, BASIC is not that bad. I know, I taught myself BASIC first. However, it soon became obvious to me there were better ways of writing software, so I progressed to Pascal and C. By that time I have also heard about a handful of other PLs (Forth, Prolog, LOGO, etc) so while I never was good enough to write using them (except some Forth loaded from tape on a borrowed AtariXE), at least I understood some problems were better solved in them rather than banging a full time database in BASIC. So, the main problem for you to solve is not really what book for this particular dialect, but how to impress the kid enough to make him curious. This, like every hard part, is left for the reader to do in his spare time :-). BTW, one word: demoscene, if you can. Either classical one (there are new demoes written for old comps, there are sites devoted to them) or some kind of modern incarnation. For LOGO, Andrea diSessa' book (forgot English title, the Polish ed's title is "Geometria zolwia" or "Turtle Geometry") - extremely interesting, with stuff like drawing models of space-time and the like. If you'd like some hardcore demos, a Postscript interpreter will give you stack based (Forth like) proglang with gfx routines resembling turtle, a Postscript document is just a program which one can run in the interpreter, then print hardcopy on a laser. Under Unix one can write stuff into the interpreter straight from code producing program (code = PS mumbojumbo) by the pipes mechanism. One can, again, do some nice looking stuff by pairing such "producer" with gnuplot (another interpreter with more civilised syntax). One can have Forth interpreter writen in /bin/sh language. One can have emacs - one of the most portable Lisp environment, with tons of usable code and modes, including interactive lisp mode (ielm - nice for quick calculations and for defining more complicated things too) or org-mode which can do very nice stuff (youtube it for more). Oh, and a builtin psychiatrist (Esc-x doctor) and some games inside (look for 2048). The possibilities are virtually endless. The wholly new Universe ot them (ok, not really new, just overlooked and neglected). Just do not suggest to him that BASIC and Java (or Javascript) are the way to go (just in case you would like to do so). I understand that the whole paragraph about demoscene is only half interesting for 8 year old. Other ideas include Smalltalk interpreter (Squeak - modern, portable, colorful, go find). As of teaching him Python and/or Perl. I suggest Python. I am afraid both are showing their age (so much about "older languages", ahem). Python has cleaner design. In case of doubt, always choose language which does not require strange out of place characters as parts of variables names, or strange not obvious obligatory naming conventions (e.g. global variables start from big letter, like in Ruby, AFAIK). If he does not program anymore, at least he will know some good looking language and maybe use it from time to time. If he goes on and programs more and more often, he will find a way to braindamage all by himself, so no need to give him bad memories right now. Ok, to sum it up: 1. Curiosity is a key. He can learn about the world by programming computer the right way. (at least this is what I have heard) 2. Language is a tool. Teach him this one thing ASAP, he can choose better tool. As of "bits and nuts" stuff, I guess I would start with PDP8 emulator. Maybe PDP11, I am not sure. And treat it as a problem solving game. Yes, go with assembly straight away, if you want to go there. With paper tape to load. It may look like WTF but at least a number of parts he will have to learn to handle is thus reduced to manageable minimum. So I guess he should learn some programming first (LOGO, Scheme, Smalltalk, even Prolog might be more interesting than BASIC nowadays). Something not very hard to give him a kick. Prolog with its conversatorial programming style looks like a winner for a really quick 1-2 days intro to programming, but I have never really used it, but then again some people supposedly use it for making great things. OTOH he may be more thrilled by things like simple chatbot rather than drawing sun over a house over a grass with turtle. After that, PDP8 with paper tape to kick him from the other side... Um, sounds cruel. But might be the right way to go, in parallel. All of this is a brain dump, and I am only human... I hope you will just pick something up from the mess I produced. > At this point my concern is more getting him interested in being more than > just a consumer. He was astonished when I told him his iPad is a computer. > I'd like him to understand why things work they way they do, that the cloud > is not a magical thing, and that at a certain level an > iPad=PC=5110=System/360. No. No. Unless they allow to run interpreter on i*'s (and load code to it), this is more like iP* .EQ. TV. You (and many more people, so perhaps no shame on you in particular) have been greatly misinformed. Otherwise, I wonder if there is decent Altair emulator for i* - the one I have seen once, looked like interactive animation and could not take in anything that was not in the animation - at least this is what I understood from description, because I never bought any i*. Therefor i*'s are pitiful waste of cpu cycles and pixels, techno evolutionary step backwards. Not a _programmable_ _in_situ_, in-the-field computer. Maybe a very complicated calculator with soft circuits loaded from the store. If you keep brainwashing kid with suggestions he can do the same on i* as one could do on System/360, he will become braindamaged. Just MHO. Sorry if my tone was too harsh and let us hope the message passed through. Of course opinion from above will be invalidated if someone points me that I could run, say CP/M on the i*. I think I _can_ do it on Android. Or at least there are some decent emulators for old architectures (soviet made PDP11 clone, some C64 emulator perhaps capable of loading demos from "tape", decent gforth port with OpenGL gfx routines - or so it seems, I definitely have to give it a try - and so on). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 4 11:34:01 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 17:34:01 +0100 Subject: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff In-Reply-To: <1c364c6f-eb13-166b-093b-088336e399da@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5F7E0FFB-CAE3-4EC6-8CDE-7FE8F7790B1F@eschatologist.net> <00fb01d1be20$6d2aafc0$47800f40$@ntlworld.com> <1c364c6f-eb13-166b-093b-088336e399da@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <013201d1be7e$e6d9df90$b48d9eb0$@ntlworld.com> > > I am going to be in Seattle this summer. Is there any equivalent place > > to Weird Stuff there worth visiting? > > Ian's place. He might even sell you something. :D > > --Toby > I am pretty sure I would covet anything Ian has... LCM have a couple of nice machines too, I wonder if they would sell me one :-) Regards Rob From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 4 12:34:52 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 10:34:52 -0700 Subject: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff In-Reply-To: <00fb01d1be20$6d2aafc0$47800f40$@ntlworld.com> References: <5F7E0FFB-CAE3-4EC6-8CDE-7FE8F7790B1F@eschatologist.net> <00fb01d1be20$6d2aafc0$47800f40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 10:17 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I am going to be in Seattle this summer. Is there any equivalent place to > Weird Stuff there worth visiting? > There's RE?PC in Seattle and Tukwila. In the past the Tukwila store has been more likely to have something slightly interesting, but very little vintage stuff the last time I was there. The vintage stuff of significant value is in a not for sale display corner of the Seattle store. http://www.repc.com/ http://stores.ebay.com/RE-PC-ONLINE-STORE From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jun 4 07:22:18 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 08:22:18 -0400 Subject: AJRLADO diskless controller test In-Reply-To: <20160604020222.GA28854@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20160604020222.GA28854@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <20160604122218.GA3344@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 10:02:22PM -0400, David Gesswein wrote: > Do you have a KP8E power fail installed? > With a little more thought overnight it makes more sense. I suspect you are using the extended option board with the KK8E. That board has the power fail logic. Check the AC Low signal on the backplane (BB1 of slots 2 & 3). The M8317 needs to be in slot 2 or 3. I didn't see a switch to disable the interrupt. From jon at jonworld.com Sat Jun 4 13:15:02 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 20:15:02 +0200 Subject: E10K? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 4:31 AM, wrote: > but all the units i ever come across are missing SSP's. Pretty much my only > requirement is a working SSP, the rest i can sort through. Unlike the CS6400, the SSP can be any Sparc system with the packages installed. The control boards for the E10Ks went over ethernet (JTAG over ethernet in some cases.) Sun sold systems with everything from Sparc 5s to Ultra 5s and Ultra10s as SSPs. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 4 14:23:52 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 20:23:52 +0100 Subject: 11/94 Some progress at last. Message-ID: <7580fe0c-4322-ba27-1586-105aac4c62ab@btinternet.com> Hi First thanks to all for considerable assistance. I can now talk to the RX 211 on the Unibus. First it did need the NPR jumper removing. Secondly I made the system into an 11/84 (Processor in slot 1 nothing in 2 MSV11-J in 3 ) Finally I'm so used to hex modules in Unibus and the RX 211 is a quad. Of course it needs to go in CDEF. Switch on finds PMI memory ok counts up to 9 as normal. Asks for choice. Type in B DY0 and we get a nice error message with lots of parameters. Time to become a 94 again. Bonus: The other 94 chassis can become a 84 I have enough parts. Rod From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Sat Jun 4 14:42:26 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (Alex McWhirter) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:42:26 -0400 Subject: E10K? Message-ID: <5lh92belkwf8wpx09nnkbfaq.1465069346867@email.android.com> I understand that, but isn't there something type of licensing built into the ssp software which is paired to a specific ssp? Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Jonathan Katz Date: 6/4/2016 2:15 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: E10K? On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 4:31 AM,? wrote: > but all the units i ever come across are missing SSP's. Pretty much my only > requirement is a working SSP, the rest i can sort through. Unlike the CS6400, the SSP can be any Sparc system with the packages installed. The control boards for the E10Ks went over ethernet (JTAG over ethernet in some cases.) Sun sold systems with everything from Sparc 5s to Ultra 5s and Ultra10s as SSPs. From jon at jonworld.com Sat Jun 4 14:54:24 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 21:54:24 +0200 Subject: E10K? In-Reply-To: <5lh92belkwf8wpx09nnkbfaq.1465069346867@email.android.com> References: <5lh92belkwf8wpx09nnkbfaq.1465069346867@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:42 PM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > I understand that, but isn't there something type of licensing built into the ssp software which is paired to a specific ssp? > Not quite -- the E10K has no real EEPROM, it's delivered by the SSP. The EEPROM is a in-part generated on an SSP with two pieces, the S/N of the system and a domain key delivered by Sun. There is a way to generate these and I remember reading a web page with the info. All you need is the S/N of the system to generate the key. Someone reverse engineered the process, but I can't find links right now. From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Jun 4 18:28:13 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 01:28:13 +0200 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <20160604154344.GA1231@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> <000c01d1b84f$2d2ce860$8786b920$@classiccmp.org> <014601d1b85a$5cc1b0a0$164511e0$@gmail.com> <0A75D5AC-E864-49B4-9BB2-F49AC2A550D0@orthanc.ca> <004b01d1b863$b2759b20$1760d160$@net> <20160604154344.GA1231@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20160604232813.GA700@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sat, Jun 04, 2016 at 05:43:44PM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 03:04:07PM -0700, Ali wrote: > > > I was going to suggest he introduce the lad to a wide range of > > > languages, especially non-procedural ones, and outliers such as Forth > > > and APL. It's much easier to grasp the concepts (and joy) of things > > > like functional programming if you're exposed to them before > > > confirmation bias limits your acceptance of the world. > > > > Yes, of course that makes assumptions on my knowledge level as well.... > > which does not quite extend to Forth or APL. > > Sorry for the late chime in, as I usually do. I am yet to read the > whole thread, so if my suggestions have been already suggested by > someone else, sorry for the noise too. > > In case my wording makes you think otherwise, those are just humble > suggestions. > > Now, learning "older languages" bears some stigma, right? Not in my > opinion, however. If you teach the young guy with intention to make > him wiser, do not use cheap copout. Or at least if you must, be > careful so he does not stick with it. [...] > BTW, one word: demoscene, if you can. Either classical one (there are > new demoes written for old comps, there are sites devoted to them) or > some kind of modern incarnation. For LOGO, Andrea diSessa' book > (forgot English title, the Polish ed's title is "Geometria zolwia" or > "Turtle Geometry") - extremely interesting, with stuff like drawing > models of space-time and the like. Ouch. I have left out Harold Abelson as the co-author. So here it is, full size mention: "Turtle Geometry" by Hal Abelson and Andrea diSessa. I have not meant to disrespect anybody's work. And by demos I mean they can be either those cute audio-video programming performances or stuff one does by oneself for fun. Printing one's own Postscript file in which there is a program making one of those fancy patterns of rotated squares qualifies too. And there is instant gratification in it, well, kind of at least... Something touchable to show off to friends - a sheet of paper with b/w patterns (or fractals). Fractals can be made in BASIC, too. [...] > > Ok, to sum it up: > > 1. Curiosity is a key. He can learn about the world by programming > computer the right way. (at least this is what I have heard) > > 2. Language is a tool. Teach him this one thing ASAP, he can choose > better tool. 3. As an afterthought, I wonder if you could make it somehow similar to pair programming. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Jun 4 18:48:14 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 19:48:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for rack rails for a pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am in need of a set of rack mount rails for my pdp 11/34. I have a second Cpu chassis that has been tying up my desk since i picked it up. If anyone has these for sale or knows of modern rails that will work i am interested. I do not expect modern rails to do the flippy bit to work on the bottom of the machine, but it would be a short term solution that will free up my desk. From stark at mit.edu Sat Jun 4 22:47:10 2016 From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 04:47:10 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3b2 vs SCSI2SD drive replacement In-Reply-To: <473D8E37-5A8E-4AB8-BF1B-165E63827797@ieee.org> References: <574F1D26.9090709@oryx.us> <03d3781c-7279-bf16-7034-a5c7688b23e7@dunnington.plus.com> <645e736b-5126-063f-f841-2a2db408a6a5@jwsss.com> <5ef06c1d-f1ea-d687-9472-b12e6146b743@telegraphics.com.au> <473D8E37-5A8E-4AB8-BF1B-165E63827797@ieee.org> Message-ID: It's not the currency that matters though, but where they ship from. I'm guessing by the ?3.25 shipping that they're probably doing from somewhere in the EU but I don't see offhand where they say that. On 2 Jun 2016 16:38, "Jerry Weiss" wrote: > > > On Jun 2, 2016, at 9:20 AM, Greg Stark wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >> Big +1 to inertialcomputing! > > > > > > Hm, any vendors inside the EU? This is above the threshold where I > > would have to deal with VAT payable if I order it from outside. > > > > -- > > greg > > From the SCSI2SD site. > > > http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1264 > > Lists UK and EU currencies. > > > Jerry > > From dave at 661.org Sat Jun 4 23:39:20 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 04:39:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Seeking Deth Specula's stuff Message-ID: Does anyone know where and how one can obtain copies of Deth Specula's work? It seems that all that's available is what I find at bandcamp.com and some weird hiphop website, about six songs in all. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 5 02:58:54 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 08:58:54 +0100 Subject: 11/04 latest Message-ID: <93cd8678-81a0-d28c-1425-ca17fa2eeee1@btinternet.com> Hi Well lots fun with the 11/94 project. In fact its become an 11/84 and 11/94 project. After following Sherlock Holmes advice "when you have eliminated everything else.Whats left however unlikely is the answer" I discovered the RX211 needed to be in CDEF and not ABCD. Why did I not know that? Well I can only put it down to the fact all of the UNIBUS options I ever worked with were hex modules. Next fascinating fact. You can switch between being an 11/84 and an 11/94. Although one box has three Qbus slots and the other (11/84) has four. If you put an 11/84 CPU in slot 1 and a MSV11-J (PMI) in 2 or 3 it does its startup tests and goes into the monitor screen. If you try to boot the RX02 in 11/84 mode you get (the drive does get accessed - there's a nice healthy clonk) Trying DY0 Error 101 Unexpected trap to location 114 See troubleshooting documentation Updated PC 173260 PCR Page = 62 Program listing address = 062260 R0 = 000000 R1 = 177170 R2 = 042131 R3 = 000000 R4 = 024000 R5 = 000000 R6 = 172276 R7 = 001600 In 11/94 mode it stops at the same point but does not give the error message. Comments gentlemen please Rod Smallwood From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 5 03:00:51 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 09:00:51 +0100 Subject: Correction Message-ID: Previous email for 11/04 read 11/94 Rod From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 03:09:00 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 01:09:00 -0700 Subject: Macintosh Quadra 840AV In-Reply-To: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> References: <409644943.7386.1464797504213.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: <7F0D033A-7C6B-4567-BCAB-6516BF82A36E@gmail.com> I just use a relatively recent SCSI drives with an adapter plug back to 50 pins. SCSI 1 is still lurking in the interface, works just fine. Marc > On Jun 1, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Cody Swanson wrote: > > I managed to pick up a Mac Quadra 840AV yesterday with an apple VGA monitor and Laser Writer II printer for $60 CAD (approximately $5 USD :-) off the local classifieds site. The pram battery had leaked pretty badly but seemed to only drip onto the internal RF shielding. After I cleaned everything up with isopropanol it booted fine off a startup floppy although the hard disk appears to be bad. Like most macs of this vintage it does seem to have leaking surface mount caps so I am going to order the standard tantalum replacements from digikey and recap the mainboard. > > What is everyone doing for replacement 50 pin SCSI drives in their 90's hardware? Is there a reasonably priced flash based replacement yet? I remember looking into it a few years ago for my Sun IPX and the only solutions I could find seemed to be priced for industrial applications. > > Also, has anyone had experience with the apple power supplies of this vintage? I'm wondering if it's something I should recap as well? Also, any comments as to which classic mac OS version is best for this era of hardware? I haven't played around with classic macs much, I went right from the Apple IIe to PC's in the early 90's. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Sun Jun 5 00:26:43 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2016 01:26:43 -0400 Subject: U320 Drives Show up on Wrong Target =?UTF-8?Q?ID=3F?= Message-ID: <4bd963b0d20b3289018bda6b0e0be316@triadic.us> So in short i have six identical drives. Same manufacture, model, and firmware. Three of them work fine, the other three also work fine but they always show up as the wrong target. For example i have a Sun D1000 storage array with 12 slots (targets 0-11). It doesn't matter what slot you put them in, these three drives always have the same target number. One is target 8, on target 4, one target 2. I doesn't matter one of the drives is by itself or together with other drives. Take the disk that always shows up as target two for example. If you place this drive in slot zero, then place a normal working drive in slot 2, and finally attempt to write data to target 2 both drives will get the write. The same effect also applies to reads. If you boot an OS with the drives in this configuration you will usually get a panic. I can verify the same behavior on my Sum V210 and Dell PE 2850. This is such a bizarre way for a disk to act / fail. Has anyone ever seen this before? From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 03:44:34 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 10:44:34 +0200 Subject: 11/04 latest In-Reply-To: <93cd8678-81a0-d28c-1425-ca17fa2eeee1@btinternet.com> References: <93cd8678-81a0-d28c-1425-ca17fa2eeee1@btinternet.com> Message-ID: 2016-06-05 9:58 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : > Hi > > Well lots fun with the 11/94 project. In fact its become an 11/84 and > 11/94 project. > > After following Sherlock Holmes advice "when you have eliminated > everything else.Whats left however unlikely is the answer" I discovered > the RX211 needed to be in CDEF and not ABCD. Why did I not know that? > Well I can only put it down to the fact all of the UNIBUS options I ever > worked with were hex modules. > > Next fascinating fact. You can switch between being an 11/84 and an > 11/94. Although one box has three Qbus slots and the other (11/84) has > four. If you put an 11/84 CPU in slot 1 and a MSV11-J (PMI) in 2 or 3 it > does its startup tests and goes into the monitor screen. > > If you try to boot the RX02 in 11/84 mode you get > > (the drive does get accessed - there's a nice healthy clonk) > > Trying DY0 > > Error 101 > > Unexpected trap to location 114 > > See troubleshooting documentation > > Updated PC 173260 PCR Page = 62 Program listing address = > 062260 > > R0 = 000000 R1 = 177170 R2 = 042131 R3 = 000000 > > R4 = 024000 R5 = 000000 R6 = 172276 R7 = 001600 > > > In 11/94 mode it stops at the same point but does not give the error > message. > > > Comments gentlemen please OK. Is this RX211 + RX02 a known working set? It could be useful to wire up a DL11 (of some sort) at 176500 and connect it to a TU58 emulator to run some kind of XXDP diagnostics for RX02 / RX211. Maybe also run other XXDP CPU diagnostics even though the boot ROM probably include quite some diagnostics for the CPU and memory. /Mattis > > Rod Smallwood > > > From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 03:55:12 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 10:55:12 +0200 Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 Message-ID: June 4, 2016 ? 10 comments *DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector* Oh man, this is good! You?re looking at the first DB-19 connector to be made in the 21st century... http://www.bigmessowires.com/2016/06/04/db-19-resurrecting-an-obsolete-connector/ -- Sent from my phone - please pardon brevity & typos. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 5 03:55:31 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 09:55:31 +0100 Subject: 11/04 latest In-Reply-To: References: <93cd8678-81a0-d28c-1425-ca17fa2eeee1@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <137bb2e9-cff6-4c76-0442-157999b3a37d@btinternet.com> On 05/06/2016 09:44, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-06-05 9:58 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : > >> Hi >> >> Well lots fun with the 11/94 project. In fact its become an 11/84 and >> 11/94 project. >> >> After following Sherlock Holmes advice "when you have eliminated >> everything else.Whats left however unlikely is the answer" I discovered >> the RX211 needed to be in CDEF and not ABCD. Why did I not know that? >> Well I can only put it down to the fact all of the UNIBUS options I ever >> worked with were hex modules. >> >> Next fascinating fact. You can switch between being an 11/84 and an >> 11/94. Although one box has three Qbus slots and the other (11/84) has >> four. If you put an 11/84 CPU in slot 1 and a MSV11-J (PMI) in 2 or 3 it >> does its startup tests and goes into the monitor screen. >> >> If you try to boot the RX02 in 11/84 mode you get >> >> (the drive does get accessed - there's a nice healthy clonk) >> >> Trying DY0 >> >> Error 101 >> >> Unexpected trap to location 114 >> >> See troubleshooting documentation >> >> Updated PC 173260 PCR Page = 62 Program listing address = >> 062260 >> >> R0 = 000000 R1 = 177170 R2 = 042131 R3 = 000000 >> >> R4 = 024000 R5 = 000000 R6 = 172276 R7 = 001600 >> >> >> In 11/94 mode it stops at the same point but does not give the error >> message. >> >> >> Comments gentlemen please > > OK. > > Is this RX211 + RX02 a known working set? It could be useful to wire up a > DL11 (of some sort) at 176500 and connect it to a TU58 emulator to run some > kind of XXDP diagnostics for RX02 / RX211. > > Maybe also run other XXDP CPU diagnostics even though the boot ROM probably > include quite some diagnostics for the CPU and memory. > > /Mattis > > >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> Hi Mattis Now what would I want a TU58 emulator for when I have real one? ( : > ) Rod From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 04:13:37 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 11:13:37 +0200 Subject: 11/04 latest In-Reply-To: <137bb2e9-cff6-4c76-0442-157999b3a37d@btinternet.com> References: <93cd8678-81a0-d28c-1425-ca17fa2eeee1@btinternet.com> <137bb2e9-cff6-4c76-0442-157999b3a37d@btinternet.com> Message-ID: s?ndag 5 juni 2016 skrev Rod Smallwood : > > > On 05/06/2016 09:44, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> 2016-06-05 9:58 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : >> >> Hi >>> >>> Well lots fun with the 11/94 project. In fact its become an 11/84 >>> and >>> 11/94 project. >>> >>> After following Sherlock Holmes advice "when you have eliminated >>> everything else.Whats left however unlikely is the answer" I discovered >>> the RX211 needed to be in CDEF and not ABCD. Why did I not know that? >>> Well I can only put it down to the fact all of the UNIBUS options I ever >>> worked with were hex modules. >>> >>> Next fascinating fact. You can switch between being an 11/84 and an >>> 11/94. Although one box has three Qbus slots and the other (11/84) has >>> four. If you put an 11/84 CPU in slot 1 and a MSV11-J (PMI) in 2 or 3 >>> it >>> does its startup tests and goes into the monitor screen. >>> >>> If you try to boot the RX02 in 11/84 mode you get >>> >>> (the drive does get accessed - there's a nice healthy clonk) >>> >>> Trying DY0 >>> >>> Error 101 >>> >>> Unexpected trap to location 114 >>> >>> See troubleshooting documentation >>> >>> Updated PC 173260 PCR Page = 62 Program listing address = >>> 062260 >>> >>> R0 = 000000 R1 = 177170 R2 = 042131 R3 = 000000 >>> >>> R4 = 024000 R5 = 000000 R6 = 172276 R7 = 001600 >>> >>> >>> In 11/94 mode it stops at the same point but does not give the error >>> message. >>> >>> >>> Comments gentlemen please >>> >> >> OK. >> >> Is this RX211 + RX02 a known working set? It could be useful to wire up a >> DL11 (of some sort) at 176500 and connect it to a TU58 emulator to run >> some >> kind of XXDP diagnostics for RX02 / RX211. >> >> Maybe also run other XXDP CPU diagnostics even though the boot ROM >> probably >> include quite some diagnostics for the CPU and memory. >> >> /Mattis >> >> >> Rod Smallwood >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Mattis > Now what would I want a TU58 emulator for when I have real > one? ( : > ) > Rod > > If you have a working TU58 with capstans in good shape then congratulations! Do you have XXDP on TU58 cartridges with RX02 diagnostics, then problem solved... I don't have that so I have to use the emulated version. (I on the other hand have maybe ten TU58 in different state of needing repair) I can then also create whatever TU58 cartridge image in SimH which I could use on the real hardware. Makes my life simpler when working with my PDPs. /Mattis From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jun 5 06:31:36 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 13:31:36 +0200 Subject: 11/04 latest - oops, 11/94 In-Reply-To: References: <93cd8678-81a0-d28c-1425-ca17fa2eeee1@btinternet.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Mattis Lind Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2016 10:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 11/04 latest 2016-06-05 9:58 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : > Well lots fun with the 11/94 project. In fact its become an 11/84 and > 11/94 project. > > After following Sherlock Holmes advice "when you have eliminated > everything else.Whats left however unlikely is the answer" I discovered > the RX211 needed to be in CDEF and not ABCD. Why did I not know that? > Well I can only put it down to the fact all of the UNIBUS options I ever > worked with were hex modules. > > Next fascinating fact. You can switch between being an 11/84 and an > 11/94. Although one box has three Qbus slots and the other (11/84) has > four. If you put an 11/84 CPU in slot 1 and a MSV11-J (PMI) in 2 or 3 it > does its startup tests and goes into the monitor screen. > > If you try to boot the RX02 in 11/84 mode you get > > (the drive does get accessed - there's a nice healthy clonk) > > Trying DY0 > Error 101 > Unexpected trap to location 114 > See troubleshooting documentation > Updated PC 173260 PCR Page = 62 Program listing address = > 062260 > R0 = 000000 R1 = 177170 R2 = 042131 R3 = 000000 > R4 = 024000 R5 = 000000 R6 = 172276 R7 = 001600 > > In 11/94 mode it stops at the same point but does not give the error > message. > > Comments gentlemen please OK. Is this RX211 + RX02 a known working set? It could be useful to wire up a DL11 (of some sort) at 176500 and connect it to a TU58 emulator to run some kind of XXDP diagnostics for RX02 / RX211. Maybe also run other XXDP CPU diagnostics even though the boot ROM probably include quite some diagnostics for the CPU and memory. /Mattis --------- Hmmm, if the RX211 has been in position A-B-C-D instead of C-D-E-F, I would check what the effect is on the module. Would it still be correctly functioning? - Henk From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 5 06:33:10 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 12:33:10 +0100 Subject: VR241 Service Manual? Message-ID: <017f01d1bf1e$09c82210$1d586630$@ntlworld.com> Does anyone have a VR241 Service Manual? I have looked on Manx and BitSavers, but there doesn't seem to be one available in those places, and a more general search has failed to turn up anything either. Thanks Rob From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 06:33:16 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 13:33:16 +0200 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: <005801d1bd18$1d82c830$58885890$@net> References: <005801d1bd18$1d82c830$58885890$@net> Message-ID: On 2 June 2016 at 23:45, Ali wrote: > > Does anyone know if IBM produced any Model M KBs w/ post windows 95 keys (I know I know an abomination!)? You know windows key, right click key, maybe power/sleep buttons that would have interchangeable caps? The "Windows" key is the same as "Super" on Sun keyboards, and there's an equivalent for the right-click or "application" key as well. So they weren't MS innovations; actually they were MS /replacing/ keys that IBM's design omitted. As such, my "anti" stance on them has softened considerably. :?) Yes, I believe there are Model-M clones with them. However, one friend bought a Unicomp type clone "Model M" clicky keyboard and both he and I were very disappointed with its build quality. Me, I stick to genuine retro parts. I have a small stock of them -- half a dozen -- which is probably enough for the rest of my life! :-/ The power/sleep key you mention is /not/ a standard key, AFAIK, and no I don't think most clicky keyboards have one. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 06:36:52 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 13:36:52 +0200 Subject: 2.8M Floppy (Was: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - In-Reply-To: <5751234B.9090607@sydex.com> References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <5750D3EB.7000306@sydex.com> <5751234B.9090607@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 June 2016 at 08:27, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll swear that that's not right. MS/PC DOS 5.0 didn't come out until > 1991; IBM was putting 2.88s out in 1988, the same year that PC DOS 4.0 > came out. And PCDOS 4.0 came out before MSDOS 4.0--MS wisely held back > on releasing that bug-ridden beast. Mine own thought. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 07:04:00 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 14:04:00 +0200 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 June 2016 at 01:16, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 2.88M 3.5" floppies were a huge mistake (there were also 2.88M 5.25" > ones as well). The media was expensive (I think I paid nearly $50 for > box of 10 DSED floppies and the drives needed FDC support. That being > said, most P2 and later boxes did have 2.88M FDC support. Drives were > uncommon (e.g. Teac FD235J). I think that I've seen all of about five > floppies in for conversion over the last 20 years in 2.88M format. That's more than I've seen. I'm surprised at your evaluation, though. It did seem to me that if the floppy companies & PC makers had actually adopted them wholesale, the floppy disk as a medium might have survived. The 2.8MB drives never really took off widely, so the media remained expensive, ISTM -- and thus little software was distributed on the format, because few machines could read it. By 1990 there was an obscure and short-lived 20MB floptical diskette format: http://www.cbronline.com/news/insites_20mb_floptical_drive_reads_144mb_disks Then in 1994 came 100MB Zip disks, which for a while were a significant format -- I had Macs with built-in-as-standard Zip drives. Then the 3?" super floptical drives, the Imation SuperDisk in 1997, 144MB Caleb UHD144 in early 1998 and then 150MB Sony HiFD in late 1998. None of the later ones could read 2.8MB diskettes, AFAIK. After that, writable CDs got cheap enough to catch on, and USB Flash media mostly has killed them off now. If the 2.8 had taken off, and maybe even intermediate ~6MB and ~12MB formats -- was that feasible? -- before the 20MB ones, well, with widespread adoption, there wouldn't have been an opening for the Zip drive, and the floppy drive might have remained a significant and important medium for another decade. I didn't realise that the Zip drive eventually got a 750MB version, presumably competing with Iomega's own 1GB Jaz drive. If floppy drives had got into that territory, could they have even fended off CDs? Rewritable CDs always were a pain. They were a one-shot medium and thus inconvenient and expensive -- write on one machine, use a few times at best, then throw away. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 07:21:34 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 14:21:34 +0200 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 June 2016 at 07:32, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Definitely stay away from Cyrix processors. Most computer stores i knew in the 486 era wouldn't even sell them or take them as trade ins. Comparability issues and overheating seemed to be common features. Really? For a while, I recommended 'em and used 'em myself. My own home PC was a Cyrix 6x86 P166+ for a while. Lovely machine -- a 133MHz processor that performed about 30-40% better than an Intel Pentium MMX at the same clock speed. My then-employer, PC Pro magazine, recommended them too. I only ever hit one problem: I had to turn down reviewing the latest version of Aldus PageMaker because it wouldn't run on a 6x86. I replaced it with a Baby-AT Slot A Gigabyte motherboard and a Pentium II 450. (Only the 100MHz front side bus Pentium IIs were worth bothering with IMHO. The 66MHz FSB PIIs could be outperformed by a cheaper SuperSocket 7 machine with a Cyrix chip.) It was *very* difficult to find a Baby-AT motherboard for a PII -- the market had switched to ATX by then -- but it allowed me to keep a case I particularly liked, and indeed, most of the components in that case, too. The one single product that killed the Cyrix chips was id Software's Quake. Quake used very cleverly optimised x86 code that interleaved FPU and integer instructions, as John Carmack had worked out that apart from instruction loading, which used the same registers, FPU and integer operations used different parts of the Pentium core and could effectively be overlapped. This nearly doubled the speed of FPU-intensive parts of the game's code. The interleaving didn't work on Cyrix cores. It ran fine, but the operations did not overlap, so execution speed halved. On every other benchmark and performance test we could device, the 6x86 core was about 30-40% faster than the Intel Pentium core -- or the Pentium MMX, as nothing much used the extra instructions, so really only the additional L1 cache helped. (The Pentium 1 had 16 kB of L1; the Pentium MMX had 32 kB.) But Quake was extremely popular, and everyone used it in their performance tests -- and thus hammered the Cyrix chips, even though the Cyrix was faster in ordinary use, in business/work/Windows operation, indeed in every other game *except* Quake. And ultimately that killed Cyrix off. Shame, because the company had made some real improvements to the x86-32 design. Improving instructions-per-clock is more important than improving the raw clock speed, which was Intel's focus right up until the demise of the Netburst Pentium 4 line. AMD with the 64-bit Sledgehammer core (Athlon 64 & Opteron) did the same to the P4 as Cyrix's 6x86 did to the Pentium 1. Indeed I have a vague memory some former Cyrix processor designers were involved. Intel Israel came back with the (Pentium Pro-based) Pentium M line, intended for notebooks, and that led to the Core series, with IPC speeds that ultimately beat even AMD's. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From chris at micromuseum.co.uk Sun Jun 5 07:28:05 2016 From: chris at micromuseum.co.uk (Chris Long) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 13:28:05 +0100 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: References: <005801d1bd18$1d82c830$58885890$@net> Message-ID: <000601d1bf25$b60fa9b0$222efd10$@micromuseum.co.uk> I've been using a Unicomp model M alongside an IBM model M for about a year now and I find there is no noticeable difference between them at all. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: 05 June 2016 12:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement On 2 June 2016 at 23:45, Ali wrote: > > Does anyone know if IBM produced any Model M KBs w/ post windows 95 keys (I know I know an abomination!)? You know windows key, right click key, maybe power/sleep buttons that would have interchangeable caps? The "Windows" key is the same as "Super" on Sun keyboards, and there's an equivalent for the right-click or "application" key as well. So they weren't MS innovations; actually they were MS /replacing/ keys that IBM's design omitted. As such, my "anti" stance on them has softened considerably. :?) Yes, I believe there are Model-M clones with them. However, one friend bought a Unicomp type clone "Model M" clicky keyboard and both he and I were very disappointed with its build quality. Me, I stick to genuine retro parts. I have a small stock of them -- half a dozen -- which is probably enough for the rest of my life! :-/ The power/sleep key you mention is /not/ a standard key, AFAIK, and no I don't think most clicky keyboards have one. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jun 5 07:33:24 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 08:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/[9]4 latest Message-ID: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > I discovered the RX211 needed to be in CDEF and not ABCD. Is _that_ what it was? I'd have never figured that out in a million years! I'm utterly amazed you didn't fry it - I forget whether the slot you plugged it into was a MUD (hex) slot, or one of the SPC slots (I know the 11/84 backplane has some MUD and some SPC, but I don't know about the /94, and I'm too lazy to look) - but there are some odd voltages on various pins. > If you try to boot the RX02 in 11/84 mode you get > ... > Unexpected trap to location 114 Well, 0114 is the 'memory system error' vector - i.e. parity, or un-recoverable ECC error. I'm a bit surprised you're getting that, as I'd have assumed the boot ROMs test all the memory. I'm too lazy to read the 11/94 and J-11 manuals to see what the 11/94 has in the way of registers that record memory issues (the 11/73 has, for instance, a Memory System Error Register at 17777744), but that's the next step. > R6 = 172276 That seems a bit odd - the stack pointer is pointing into I/0 space? 772276 is the last Supervisor mode Data space PAR - maybe it's using those registers as a temporary stack? Noel From jon at jonworld.com Sun Jun 5 04:25:08 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 11:25:08 +0200 Subject: U320 Drives Show up on Wrong Target ID? In-Reply-To: <4bd963b0d20b3289018bda6b0e0be316@triadic.us> References: <4bd963b0d20b3289018bda6b0e0be316@triadic.us> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 7:26 AM, wrote: > So in short i have six identical drives. Same manufacture, model, and > firmware. Three of them work fine, the other three also work fine but they > always show up as the wrong target. Is there a jumper on the drives that is overriding the address assigned by the enclosure? The whole point of SCA is that you don't use jumpers to assign the drive address, it just figures it out somehow. It sounds like the SCA isn't being allowed to do its thing. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 5 09:11:57 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 14:11:57 +0000 Subject: VR241 Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <017f01d1bf1e$09c82210$1d586630$@ntlworld.com> References: <017f01d1bf1e$09c82210$1d586630$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > Does anyone have a VR241 Service Manual? > I have looked on Manx and BitSavers, but there doesn't seem to be one > available in those places, and a more general search has failed to turn up > anything either. It's also not in (for example) the VT240 manuals. The VR201 is, but said manuals specifically refer you to a VR241 documentation set. What do you need to know? I've reverse-engineered the schematic and can send you that, but if you do delve inside (a) Good Luck and (b) be very careful. IIRC there is mains where you might not expect it. It's a Hitachi chassis, and it shares some feautures with Hitachi televisions of the period. There is a thick-film hybrid module in the middle of the deflection board. It contains the sync/oscillator IC and the vertical output stage. The IC, output transistors and a few other componets are soldered to the module, the resistors are thick film traces. The power supply is evil. It's a switcher, and it runs off the _horizontal deflection_ oscillator. So for the power supply to run, the horizontal oscillator, horizontal output, flyback transformer, etc must all be good. There is a little multivibrator on the PSU board to kick the thing into life when you turn it on. -tony From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 09:28:18 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 11:28:18 -0300 Subject: U320 Drives Show up on Wrong Target ID? In-Reply-To: References: <4bd963b0d20b3289018bda6b0e0be316@triadic.us> Message-ID: <57543702.1060703@gmail.com> On 2016-06-05 6:25 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 7:26 AM, wrote: >> So in short i have six identical drives. Same manufacture, model, and >> firmware. Three of them work fine, the other three also work fine but they >> always show up as the wrong target. > Is there a jumper on the drives that is overriding the address > assigned by the enclosure? The whole point of SCA is that you don't > use jumpers to assign the drive address, it just figures it out > somehow. It sounds like the SCA isn't being allowed to do its thing. The SCA connectors has pins on it for setting the drive address, so the the disk backplane slot that the drive is plugged into sets the drive address. These drives normally have jumper positions on them to set addresses as well, however the normal case is that the actual address is the backplane set address ORed with what is set in the jumpers. For instance if the drive has a jumper for address 2 set, and you plug it into the address 0 slot it will respond to address 2, but if you plug it into the address 1 slot it will respond to address 3, but when plugged into slot with address 2 it will correctly respond to 2. The OP claims that these drives respond to the same address no matter where they are plugged, which does not seem possible on any SCA drive I have ever seen. If the drives happen to have 50 or 68 pin connectors that are mounted on a carrier with a connector that plugs into a backplane that sets an address, in this case this is normally done with a small cable that connects the auxiliary connector on the drive to the appropriate pins on the carrier, in that case if this cable is disconnected and address jumpers are installed on the drive, I could see the OP's situation occurring. I have no experience with Sun disk enclosures so I don't know what sort of drives or drive carriers they use in their enclosures so I cannot say for sure what may be going wrong. Paul. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 5 10:19:33 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 08:19:33 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57544305.60800@sydex.com> On 06/05/2016 05:04 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I'm surprised at your evaluation, though. It did seem to me that if > the floppy companies & PC makers had actually adopted them wholesale, > the floppy disk as a medium might have survived. I doubt it. The ED floppy did not come at a good time. Clone (okay, second-source) manufacturers had adopted the HD format wholesale and the price of HD floppies themselves had dropped to the level of DD prices. By 1990, most if not all, new PCs had HD droves and even Apple was able to understand the PC format. When ED floppies were released to the general unwashed public, integrated FDCs largely could not handle the 1Mbps data rate, so adopting the format meant changing the FDC (fraught with problems if said FDC was integrated into the motherboard) and buying a new drive and expensive media. Perhaps the media price would have fallen if adopted. That's not a sure thing, however--prices never fell on floptical (3M superdisk, Caleb SHD, etc.) media. Also, by 1990, IBM was no longer an industry leader in PCs, nor did it set the technical standards (MCA pretty much did that in). But I don't think that a high-capacity Zip would have made a dent in the CD-R market. I'm not aware of many consumer-grade audio players that can handle Zip disks of any stripe. Too little, too late is probably another aspect. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 5 10:39:36 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 16:39:36 +0100 Subject: VR241 Service Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <017f01d1bf1e$09c82210$1d586630$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01ac01d1bf40$77430c70$65c92550$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: tony duell [mailto:ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: 05 June 2016 15:12 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: VR241 Service Manual? > > > > > Does anyone have a VR241 Service Manual? > > > I have looked on Manx and BitSavers, but there doesn't seem to be one > > available in those places, and a more general search has failed to > > turn up anything either. > > It's also not in (for example) the VT240 manuals. The VR201 is, but said > manuals specifically refer you to a VR241 documentation set. > > What do you need to know? I've reverse-engineered the schematic and can > send you that, but if you do delve inside (a) Good Luck and (b) be very > careful. IIRC there is mains where you might not expect it. The screen basically works, but it won't go black, it is as if the brightness is turned up, and I get some diagonal lines when the brightness is turned up a bit more. I want to know how to take it apart to check the electrolytics. I have partially dismantled it but I am struggling to take it apart further, for fear of forcing something and then breaking it. > > It's a Hitachi chassis, and it shares some feautures with Hitachi televisions of > the period. There is a thick-film hybrid module in the middle of the deflection > board. It contains the sync/oscillator IC and the vertical output stage. The IC, > output transistors and a few other componets are soldered to the module, > the resistors are thick film traces. > > The power supply is evil. It's a switcher, and it runs off the _horizontal > deflection_ oscillator. So for the power supply to run, the horizontal > oscillator, horizontal output, flyback transformer, etc must all be good. > There is a little multivibrator on the PSU board to kick the thing into life when > you turn it on. > Thankfully the PSU seems OK, but if I can get the whole thing apart I can check all the capacitors. Thanks Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 5 11:36:06 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 17:36:06 +0100 Subject: 11/04 latest - oops, 11/94 In-Reply-To: References: <93cd8678-81a0-d28c-1425-ca17fa2eeee1@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 05/06/2016 12:31, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Mattis Lind Sent: Sunday, June > 05, 2016 10:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 11/04 latest > 2016-06-05 9:58 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : > >> Well lots fun with the 11/94 project. In fact its become an 11/84 >> and >> 11/94 project. >> >> After following Sherlock Holmes advice "when you have eliminated >> everything else.Whats left however unlikely is the answer" I >> discovered >> the RX211 needed to be in CDEF and not ABCD. Why did I not know that? >> Well I can only put it down to the fact all of the UNIBUS options I ever >> worked with were hex modules. >> >> Next fascinating fact. You can switch between being an 11/84 and an >> 11/94. Although one box has three Qbus slots and the other (11/84) has >> four. If you put an 11/84 CPU in slot 1 and a MSV11-J (PMI) in 2 or >> 3 it >> does its startup tests and goes into the monitor screen. >> >> If you try to boot the RX02 in 11/84 mode you get >> >> (the drive does get accessed - there's a nice healthy clonk) >> >> Trying DY0 >> Error 101 >> Unexpected trap to location 114 >> See troubleshooting documentation >> Updated PC 173260 PCR Page = 62 Program listing address = >> 062260 >> R0 = 000000 R1 = 177170 R2 = 042131 R3 = 000000 >> R4 = 024000 R5 = 000000 R6 = 172276 R7 = 001600 >> >> In 11/94 mode it stops at the same point but does not give the error >> message. >> >> Comments gentlemen please > > OK. > > Is this RX211 + RX02 a known working set? It could be useful to wire up a > DL11 (of some sort) at 176500 and connect it to a TU58 emulator to run > some > kind of XXDP diagnostics for RX02 / RX211. > > Maybe also run other XXDP CPU diagnostics even though the boot ROM > probably > include quite some diagnostics for the CPU and memory. > > /Mattis > > --------- > > Hmmm, if the RX211 has been in position A-B-C-D instead of C-D-E-F, I > would > check what the effect is on the module. Would it still be correctly > functioning? > - Henk Hi I have two RX211 and the other one never went in the wrong slot and the result is the same. Mattis idea of loading xxdp from the TU85 looks possible. I also have an RX01. I'll see if I have an interface for it. There's also a Qbus interface for RX 's Rod From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Jun 5 11:51:17 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 12:51:17 -0400 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement Message-ID: <1e142e.49e397ad.4485b284@aol.com> my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various usb adapters and they could be flaky,... you would have to start computer then have to unplug and reinsert keyboard connection etc... anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# In a message dated 6/5/2016 5:28:10 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, chris at micromuseum.co.uk writes: I've been using a Unicomp model M alongside an IBM model M for about a year now and I find there is no noticeable difference between them at all. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: 05 June 2016 12:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement On 2 June 2016 at 23:45, Ali wrote: > > Does anyone know if IBM produced any Model M KBs w/ post windows 95 keys (I know I know an abomination!)? You know windows key, right click key, maybe power/sleep buttons that would have interchangeable caps? The "Windows" key is the same as "Super" on Sun keyboards, and there's an equivalent for the right-click or "application" key as well. So they weren't MS innovations; actually they were MS /replacing/ keys that IBM's design omitted. As such, my "anti" stance on them has softened considerably. :?) Yes, I believe there are Model-M clones with them. However, one friend bought a Unicomp type clone "Model M" clicky keyboard and both he and I were very disappointed with its build quality. Me, I stick to genuine retro parts. I have a small stock of them -- half a dozen -- which is probably enough for the rest of my life! :-/ The power/sleep key you mention is /not/ a standard key, AFAIK, and no I don't think most clicky keyboards have one. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Jun 5 12:09:49 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 13:09:49 -0400 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement Message-ID: <1b89aa.b25ce78.4485b6dd@aol.com> my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various usb adapters and they could be flaky,... you would have to start computer then have to unplug and reinsert keyboard connection etc... anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# In a message dated 6/5/2016 9:51:17 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, COURYHOUSE at aol.com writes: my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various usb adapters and they could be flaky,... you would have to start computer then have to unplug and reinsert keyboard connection etc... anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Jun 5 12:34:50 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2016 10:34:50 -0700 Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 Message-ID: Sweet. No where can I order 10 or so at a reasonable price? There is a guy one ebay selling one with hood at $22 a piece.... -------- Original message -------- From: Liam Proven Date: 6/5/2016 1:55 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 June 4, 2016 ? 10 comments *DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector* Oh man, this is good! You?re looking at the first DB-19 connector to be made in the 21st century... http://www.bigmessowires.com/2016/06/04/db-19-resurrecting-an-obsolete-connector/ -- Sent from my phone - please pardon brevity & typos. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 5 13:16:55 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 14:16:55 -0400 Subject: Interesting Material - BOTH on topic and off topic In-Reply-To: <310864DB0B49654FAF5745A22E03A14F1120540D@exch2010.compsys.to> References: <641BC0F4DC3D434A839C54B64E4B4FA1149D4B70@exch2010.compsys.to> <310864DB0B49654FAF5745A22E03A14F1120540D@exch2010.compsys.to> Message-ID: <57546C97.1090203@compsys.to> I expect that everyone on this list knows about most of the tools to communicate. Many also use these tools and understand how much easier communication has become as a result. https://uniteyouthdublin.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/here_comes_everybody_power_of_organizing_without_organizations.pdf What is probably not clear is the extent to which these tools have revolutionized how easy it is for groups to be effective. This is the first time I have felt it is useful to draw attention to a book, especially since the PDF can be downloaded so easily for those of you who have the hardware. For myself, I prefer a dead tree version and have been reading the copy I borrowed from the library. Comments on if this book is useful would be appreciated. Jerome Fine From g-wright at att.net Sun Jun 5 13:36:58 2016 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 18:36:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Xerox Star Software Images Available References: <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I have put up my Xerox Star Disk Images here. Now,? does anyone have the service manualsthat? are complete. seems what I have in missing most of the latter part.? Will be up for a few days. Jerry https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/104392233/XEROX_Star_SW.zip From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jun 5 13:39:53 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 11:39:53 -0700 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> On 6/5/2016 5:33 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Well, 0114 is the 'memory system error' vector - i.e. parity, or > un-recoverable ECC error. > > > R6 = 172276 > > That seems a bit odd - the stack pointer is pointing into I/0 space? 772276 > is the last Supervisor mode Data space PAR - maybe it's using those registers > as a temporary stack? > > Noel If the firmware got an error it would seem the first order of business would be to go to the processor registers, store out the error info wherever, and halt and catch fire. I wonder if the boardset that was in the wrong slot might have had something fried that could create the error. thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 5 13:57:29 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 11:57:29 -0700 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: <1b89aa.b25ce78.4485b6dd@aol.com> References: <1b89aa.b25ce78.4485b6dd@aol.com> Message-ID: <57547619.3000004@sydex.com> On 06/05/2016 10:09 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various > usb adapters and they could be flaky,... you would have to start > computer then have to unplug and reinsert keyboard connection > etc... > > anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# I use a no-name cheapie keyboar+mouse adapter that looks like a "y" cable more than anything. Works fine on USB for both. I think I paid about $2 shipped from China. I can get the chip ID if you'd like, but that assumes that you can find another like it. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Jun 5 14:09:05 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:09:05 -0400 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement Message-ID: <1bf5b8.79e5381c.4485d2d1@aol.com> Chuck! That would be great! Perhaps yours had newer brains in it than my couple as mine have some years on them. if you still have link to vendor that would be good too. My clicky keyboard is off the tower so it has a long cable on it! I love this keyboard! In a message dated 6/5/2016 11:57:36 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 06/05/2016 10:09 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various > usb adapters and they could be flaky,... you would have to start > computer then have to unplug and reinsert keyboard connection > etc... > > anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# I use a no-name cheapie keyboar+mouse adapter that looks like a "y" cable more than anything. Works fine on USB for both. I think I paid about $2 shipped from China. I can get the chip ID if you'd like, but that assumes that you can find another like it. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jun 5 14:28:17 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 20:28:17 +0100 Subject: UST-PS/2 keyboards - was Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: <57547619.3000004@sydex.com> References: <1b89aa.b25ce78.4485b6dd@aol.com> <57547619.3000004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <87226c3e-81cc-de39-7e5d-c1a22c531755@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/06/2016 19:57, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 06/05/2016 10:09 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> >> my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various >> usb adapters and they could be flaky,... you would have to start >> computer then have to unplug and reinsert keyboard connection >> etc... >> >> anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# > > > I use a no-name cheapie keyboar+mouse adapter that looks like a "y" > cable more than anything. Works fine on USB for both. I think I paid > about $2 shipped from China. I've had a few and found the ones that look like a Y-cable work far better than the ones that look like a little lump of an adapter. I use my Indy keyboard through a KVM and one of the Y-cable adapters to a PC and an SGI, and used to have the same setup at work. But has anyone found a decent solution to connecting a USB mouse - such as a wireless mouse - to a PS/2 machine? Eg my nice Logitech MX to an Indy? I know there are some adapters for older Logitech mice, but they're just wiring rearrangements for mice that already understand PS/2. -- Pete From sales at elecplus.com Sun Jun 5 14:57:07 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 14:57:07 -0500 Subject: AT&T Message-ID: <001501d1bf64$70bacc20$52306460$@com> Who was it has the AT&T, wanted the books and disks? I just found the 5.25" floppies for AT&T for the C compiler, Pascal, etc. Maybe it was Seth? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 500 Pershing Ave. Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 5 15:03:44 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 21:03:44 +0100 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 05/06/2016 19:39, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 6/5/2016 5:33 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> Well, 0114 is the 'memory system error' vector - i.e. parity, or >> un-recoverable ECC error. > >> >> > R6 = 172276 >> >> That seems a bit odd - the stack pointer is pointing into I/0 space? >> 772276 >> is the last Supervisor mode Data space PAR - maybe it's using those >> registers >> as a temporary stack? >> >> Noel > If the firmware got an error it would seem the first order of business > would be to go to the processor registers, store out the error info > wherever, and halt and catch fire. > > I wonder if the boardset that was in the wrong slot might have had > something fried that could create the error. > > thanks > Jim The board that went in did not get fried, baked or boiled. Its twin brother that only went into the correct location produces the exact same results. The RX is clearly alive, The motor runs, belt tension is good and you can hear the heads load. I have a box full of 8" floppies. BTW how many 8" floppies do you think there were in an RT11 distribution? So the question then arises what next? If we look at what an 11/94 is then its a single board CPU and a power control card in a three slot back plane. There after its UNIBUS So is there any thing we can put in the spare QBUS slot without doing any damage? Regards Rod From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 09:54:51 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 10:54:51 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: We fixed the RK05 disk this week. We replaced E3 (LM301A) and E1 (SN7404) on the G938 Servo Preamp module. The COUNT PULSE FWD H and the COUNT PULSE REV H signals from the G938 module are both working now. The drive will now seek correctly using the jumpers described in the Maintenance Manual or using seek-only instructions from the RK8-F controller. We tried the OS/8 and LAPS-DIAL bootstraps, but the processor just halted. The first page of core that was read from the pack contained a repeating sequence of 2525-5252. Either the pack was used as a data-only pack, or diagnostics were run on the pack. During the week I will use SIMH to make a PDP-12 bootable OS/8 RK05 image. Next week we will use dumprest to make an image of the disk pack, and then write OS/8 to the pack. -- Michael Thompson From amh at pobox.com Sun Jun 5 11:01:14 2016 From: amh at pobox.com (Andrew M Hoerter) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 12:01:14 -0400 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: References: <005801d1bd18$1d82c830$58885890$@net> Message-ID: <40d260c1-61e0-f1e8-bca3-09a808a50617@pobox.com> On 6/5/16 7:33, Liam Proven wrote: > Yes, I believe there are Model-M clones with them. However, one friend > bought a Unicomp type clone "Model M" clicky keyboard and both he and > I were very disappointed with its build quality. I have a couple of buckling-spring Unicomps as well as IBM model M's, and while I would agree that the IBM version is more heavily built, I think the Unicomp is of reasonable quality. At least for people who don't plan to use it as a deadly weapon. It would have been nice if they had made the cable detachable though. Also, I'm not sure it's fair to call Unicomp a "clone", as I understand it they were either an OEM for IBM, or acquired the production assets from them, or something along those lines. Pretty close to the real thing in my view. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Sun Jun 5 13:50:04 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2016 14:50:04 -0400 Subject: U320 Drives Show up on Wrong Target =?UTF-8?Q?ID=3F?= In-Reply-To: <57543702.1060703@gmail.com> References: <4bd963b0d20b3289018bda6b0e0be316@triadic.us> <57543702.1060703@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2016-06-05 10:28, Paul Berger wrote: > It sounds like the SCA isn't being allowed to do its thing. > The SCA connectors has pins on it for setting the drive address, so > the the disk backplane slot that the drive is plugged into sets the > drive address. These drives normally have jumper positions on them to > set addresses as well, however the normal case is that the actual > address is the backplane set address ORed with what is set in the > jumpers. For instance if the drive has a jumper for address 2 set, > and you plug it into the address 0 slot it will respond to address 2, > but if you plug it into the address 1 slot it will respond to address > 3, but when plugged into slot with address 2 it will correctly respond > to 2. The OP claims that these > drives respond to the same address no matter where they are plugged, > which does not seem possible on any SCA drive I have ever seen. > > If the drives happen to have 50 or 68 pin connectors that are mounted > on a carrier with a connector that plugs into a backplane that sets an > address, in this case this is normally done with a small cable that > connects the auxiliary connector on the drive to the appropriate pins > on the carrier, in that case if this cable is disconnected and address > jumpers are installed on the drive, I could see the OP's situation > occurring. > > I have no experience with Sun disk enclosures so I don't know what > sort of drives or drive carriers they use in their enclosures so I > cannot say for sure what may be going wrong. > > Paul. So the D1000 is mostly a dumb box. It only has functions to set addresses and power on / off the drives. It uses standard SCA scsi drives, nothing fancy. Anyways, yes one of the drives shows up as target two no matter what slot it's in. If there is another drive in slot two the target id's will conflict. There are no pins on these drives, and the exhibit the same behavior in other machines. I just find it weird, hopefully the other three drives don't start doing the same thing. From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 15:54:29 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 22:54:29 +0200 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >> The board that went in did not get fried, baked or boiled. Its twin > brother that only went into the correct location produces the exact same > results. > > The RX is clearly alive, The motor runs, belt tension is good and you can > hear the heads load. Well. I have two RXV21 that also do all that but still doesn't work. So it is not at all a guarantee that everything is OK. If I were you I would run the XXDP diagnostics. In my case they showed plenty of errors. Luckily I had one RXV21 that was fine. The others are put on the list for being repaired whenever I get time. > I have a box full of 8" floppies. BTW how many 8" floppies do you think > there were in an RT11 distribution? > > So the question then arises what next? If we look at what an 11/94 is > then its a single board CPU and a power control card in a three slot back > plane. There after its UNIBUS So is there any thing we can put in the > spare QBUS slot without doing any damage? > > Regards > Rod > > > /Mattis From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 16:02:47 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 18:02:47 -0300 Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2015/05/fazendo-o-expletiva-cabo-da-duodisk.html Better than nothing :) 2016-06-05 14:34 GMT-03:00 Ali : > Sweet. No where can I order 10 or so at a reasonable price? There is a guy > one ebay selling one with hood at $22 a piece.... > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Liam Proven > Date: 6/5/2016 1:55 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 > > June 4, 2016 ? 10 comments > > *DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector* > > Oh man, this is good! You?re looking at the first DB-19 connector to be > made in the 21st century... > > > http://www.bigmessowires.com/2016/06/04/db-19-resurrecting-an-obsolete-connector/ > > -- > Sent from my phone - please pardon brevity & typos. > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 5 16:13:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 14:13:58 -0700 Subject: Xerox Star Software Images Available In-Reply-To: <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <36c1869e-81f7-1d12-19c8-fae7e92629f1@bitsavers.org> On 6/5/16 11:36 AM, Jerry Wright wrote: > I have put up my Xerox Star Disk Images here. Now, does anyone have the service manualsthat are complete. seems what I have in missing most of the latter part. Will be up for a few days. > > thanks! let me see what I have scanned. there has been mention of someone reverse engineering the linear power supply From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 5 16:15:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 14:15:02 -0700 Subject: AT&T In-Reply-To: <001501d1bf64$70bacc20$52306460$@com> References: <001501d1bf64$70bacc20$52306460$@com> Message-ID: <2cb2ac89-c0f1-1434-805e-ca04f9ae8603@bitsavers.org> Seth was looking for ATT 3B2 series material. 3B1 aka 7300 information is readily available. On 6/5/16 12:57 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > Who was it has the AT&T, wanted the books and disks? I just found the 5.25" > floppies for AT&T for the C compiler, Pascal, etc. > > Maybe it was Seth? > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 500 Pershing Ave. > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 5 16:22:13 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 14:22:13 -0700 Subject: Xerox Star Software Images Available In-Reply-To: <36c1869e-81f7-1d12-19c8-fae7e92629f1@bitsavers.org> References: <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <36c1869e-81f7-1d12-19c8-fae7e92629f1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1768cfa6-89d0-d3f8-ec1f-543504b3a927@bitsavers.org> http://dandelion.sen.cx/ On 6/5/16 2:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > there has been mention of someone reverse engineering the linear power supply > > From brian at marstella.net Sun Jun 5 17:59:51 2016 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 18:59:51 -0400 Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You might check iec.net; I recently purchased several DB19M and DB19F connectors from them at a reasonable price. They were out of the male DB19 solder-tail type connectors but substituted the pin-insert type instead. For my purposes, either would work. They also had a 25 pin to 19 pin cable for the Apple Dual Disk drives that seems to be working perfectly and quite a bit cheaper than several alternatives I looked at. Melinda was very helpful in processing the order. Regards, Brian. On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2015/05/fazendo-o-expletiva-cabo-da-duodisk.html > > Better than nothing :) > > 2016-06-05 14:34 GMT-03:00 Ali : > > > Sweet. No where can I order 10 or so at a reasonable price? There is a > guy > > one ebay selling one with hood at $22 a piece.... > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Liam Proven > > Date: 6/5/2016 1:55 AM (GMT-08:00) > > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 > > > > June 4, 2016 ? 10 comments > > > > *DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector* > > > > Oh man, this is good! You?re looking at the first DB-19 connector to be > > made in the 21st century... > > > > > > > http://www.bigmessowires.com/2016/06/04/db-19-resurrecting-an-obsolete-connector/ > > > > -- > > Sent from my phone - please pardon brevity & typos. > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 19:06:47 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 19:06:47 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? Message-ID: Which is the correct model number for the I/O & memory accessory for the Heath ET-3400(A) trainers? I see ETA-3400 and ETW-3400 used interchangeably. For instance, the d/l manuals refer to the unit as ETA-3400 but many (most?) units, mine included, are screened ETW-3400 on the case. Anyone know what gives with this? Are there actually two different models or revisions, as with the ET-3400 and ET-3400A? Also, is there a way to tell if a Heath piece is factory-built? My recently-acquired ETW/A-3400 has a board which almost +must+ have been wave soldered and washed. It has no traces of home-assembly. Likewise, the rest of the build is top-notch and looks like factory work.. Thoughts? PS Still need a 2x20 header (like 40pin IDE) to complete this project. Anybody got a spare? From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 19:39:07 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 20:39:07 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=553 Here are my notes. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Jun 5, 2016 8:06 PM, "drlegendre ." wrote: > Which is the correct model number for the I/O & memory accessory for the > Heath ET-3400(A) trainers? > > I see ETA-3400 and ETW-3400 used interchangeably. For instance, the d/l > manuals refer to the unit as ETA-3400 but many (most?) units, mine > included, are screened ETW-3400 on the case. > > Anyone know what gives with this? Are there actually two different models > or revisions, as with the ET-3400 and ET-3400A? > > Also, is there a way to tell if a Heath piece is factory-built? My > recently-acquired ETW/A-3400 has a board which almost +must+ have been wave > soldered and washed. It has no traces of home-assembly. Likewise, the rest > of the build is top-notch and looks like factory work.. > > Thoughts? > > PS Still need a 2x20 header (like 40pin IDE) to complete this project. > Anybody got a spare? > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jun 5 20:54:22 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2016 20:54:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5754D7CE.4080808@pico-systems.com> On 06/05/2016 09:54 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > We fixed the RK05 disk this week. We replaced E3 (LM301A) and E1 (SN7404) > on the G938 Servo Preamp module. The COUNT PULSE FWD H and the COUNT PULSE > REV H signals from the G938 module are both working now. The drive will now > seek correctly using the jumpers described in the Maintenance Manual or > using seek-only instructions from the RK8-F controller. > > We tried the OS/8 and LAPS-DIAL bootstraps, but the processor just halted. > The first page of core that was read from the pack contained a repeating > sequence of 2525-5252. Either the pack was used as a data-only pack, or > diagnostics were run on the pack. 2525 and 5252 sound VERY much like test patterns. Jon From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 5 21:51:06 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 22:51:06 -0400 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > [Snip] > > The RX is clearly alive, The motor runs, belt tension is good and you > can hear the heads load. > I have a box full of 8" floppies. BTW how many 8" floppies do you > think there were in an RT11 distribution? I can't remember for sure, but I think there were eight SSDD (RX02) floppies plus an Auto-Install floppy. That would have been for V05.06 of RT-11 which requires over 6,800 blocks for an RL02 disk pack. Since some of the files get duplicated, eight seems about right. I doubt that V05.07 of RT-11 from Mentec was ever supported on RX02 floppies. The size of the binary distribution for V05.07 of RT-11 is over 16,600 blocks on an RL02 disk pack of which over 9,000 blocks are DSK files (one of which is 7,000 blocks) which Mentec added to the V05.07 RT-11 distribution. Using RX01 floppies will take many more since there are only half the blocks or 494 blocks on a SSSD (RX01) floppy. Do you have any other questions? I don't know of any RT-11 distributions on RX02 image files for either V05.06 or V05.07 of RT-11. There may be some for earlier versions. Do you have any other questions? Jerome Fine From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 22:12:26 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 22:12:26 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Thanks, nice little site you made there. I also lack the correct ribbon cable, so it seems my mod will use a plain gray ribbon.. and so long as it's installed correctly, that should be just fine. ;-) Thing is, it still doesn't answer my main question.. Your expansion accy. is screened 'ETA-3400' and mine is screened 'EWA-3400'. They seem to share the same board & components, so why the two different marks - is there any material difference? I see that yours has some switches on the front panel, but I assume that those are for your custom serial comms. mod. On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 7:39 PM, william degnan wrote: > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=553 > > Here are my notes. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Jun 5, 2016 8:06 PM, "drlegendre ." wrote: > > > Which is the correct model number for the I/O & memory accessory for the > > Heath ET-3400(A) trainers? > > > > I see ETA-3400 and ETW-3400 used interchangeably. For instance, the d/l > > manuals refer to the unit as ETA-3400 but many (most?) units, mine > > included, are screened ETW-3400 on the case. > > > > Anyone know what gives with this? Are there actually two different models > > or revisions, as with the ET-3400 and ET-3400A? > > > > Also, is there a way to tell if a Heath piece is factory-built? My > > recently-acquired ETW/A-3400 has a board which almost +must+ have been > wave > > soldered and washed. It has no traces of home-assembly. Likewise, the > rest > > of the build is top-notch and looks like factory work.. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > PS Still need a 2x20 header (like 40pin IDE) to complete this project. > > Anybody got a spare? > > > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Jun 5 22:15:06 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 20:15:06 -0700 Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007c01d1bfa1$a137e5d0$e3a7b170$@net> > You might check iec.net; I recently purchased several DB19M and DB19F > connectors from them at a reasonable price. They were out of the male > DB19 solder-tail type connectors but substituted the pin-insert type > instead. > For my purposes, either would work. They also had a 25 pin to 19 pin > cable for the Apple Dual Disk drives that seems to be working perfectly > and quite a bit cheaper than several alternatives I looked at. Melinda > was very helpful in processing the order. Brian, Thanks for that! That is a great little site! They also had a couple of other pieces I needed that I ordered! I was going to order the DUO Disk cable as well but at $17 it seemed a bit pricey! Thanks! -Ali From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 5 22:58:41 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 04:58:41 +0100 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> Message-ID: <83900074-955d-7e09-c744-06ad3875be52@btinternet.com> On 06/06/2016 03:51, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> [Snip] >> >> The RX is clearly alive, The motor runs, belt tension is good and you >> can hear the heads load. >> I have a box full of 8" floppies. BTW how many 8" floppies do you >> think there were in an RT11 distribution? > > I can't remember for sure, but I think there were eight SSDD (RX02) > floppies > plus an Auto-Install floppy. That would have been for V05.06 of RT-11 > which > requires over 6,800 blocks for an RL02 disk pack. Since some of the > files > get duplicated, eight seems about right. > > I doubt that V05.07 of RT-11 from Mentec was ever supported on RX02 > floppies. The size of the binary distribution for V05.07 of RT-11 is > over > 16,600 blocks on an RL02 disk pack of which over 9,000 blocks are > DSK files (one of which is 7,000 blocks) which Mentec added to the > V05.07 RT-11 distribution. > > Using RX01 floppies will take many more since there are only half the > blocks > or 494 blocks on a SSSD (RX01) floppy. > > Do you have any other questions? I don't know of any RT-11 distributions > on RX02 image files for either V05.06 or V05.07 of RT-11. There may > be some for earlier versions. > > Do you have any other questions? > > Jerome Fine The first one out of the box read 1/87 and its not the date. R From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 5 23:33:38 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 21:33:38 -0700 Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 5, 2016, at 14:02, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2015/05/fazendo-o-expletiva-cabo-da-duodisk.html > > Better than nothing :) Nice hack! Too bad that Noy guy defaced his computer. :D -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 23:42:34 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 00:42:34 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 11:12 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Bill, > > Thanks, nice little site you made there. I also lack the correct ribbon > cable, so it seems my mod will use a plain gray ribbon.. and so long as > it's installed correctly, that should be just fine. ;-) > > Thing is, it still doesn't answer my main question.. Your expansion accy. > is screened 'ETA-3400' and mine is screened 'EWA-3400'. > > They seem to share the same board & components, so why the two different > marks - is there any material difference? I see that yours has some > switches on the front panel, but I assume that those are for your custom > serial comms. mod. > > Oops I did not notice the ETA- vs EWA- It could be that T = Tiny BASIC and W = Wintek Monitor (only). i.e. you need to find a BASIC ROM if you want to make it an "ETA". There should be no reason not to be able to load BASIC into memory via the serial port if you don't have a BASIC ROM. I believe you'd put it into 0010-00C7. You'd need 0000-0009 (?) and 0100-0FFF to be read/write. The monitor starts at 1C00, uses upper memory. This my guess. From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 00:21:07 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 00:21:07 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And as good a guess as any, so far.. It seems my box has both the monitor and tiny basic ROMs on-board.. or at least, it seems that the requisite chips are present. Until I can come up with a 2x20 pin header, to connect my ET-3400A, I won't really know. I did put out a request to the list for a header, but no one has offered up. Looks like I need to go ahead and order up (more than I need) from eBay or someplace. I don't even have a junk mobo to plunder - and even so, I'd be lucky to get one removed in decent shape. They really aren't made for that kind of re-use. On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 11:42 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 11:12 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > Thanks, nice little site you made there. I also lack the correct ribbon > > cable, so it seems my mod will use a plain gray ribbon.. and so long as > > it's installed correctly, that should be just fine. ;-) > > > > Thing is, it still doesn't answer my main question.. Your expansion accy. > > is screened 'ETA-3400' and mine is screened 'EWA-3400'. > > > > They seem to share the same board & components, so why the two different > > marks - is there any material difference? I see that yours has some > > switches on the front panel, but I assume that those are for your custom > > serial comms. mod. > > > > > Oops I did not notice the ETA- vs EWA- > > It could be that T = Tiny BASIC and W = Wintek Monitor (only). i.e. you > need to find a BASIC ROM if you want to make it an "ETA". There should be > no reason not to be able to load BASIC into memory via the serial port if > you don't have a BASIC ROM. I believe you'd put it into 0010-00C7. You'd > need 0000-0009 (?) and 0100-0FFF to be read/write. > > The monitor starts at 1C00, uses upper memory. > > This my guess. > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Jun 6 01:10:28 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 02:10:28 -0400 Subject: Resurrecting the DB-19 Message-ID: <6717d5.1fa606c8.44866dd4@aol.com> funny.... we used to end up with cables with these things on them and .... hope they got saved in one of the aux buildings...ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 6/5/2016 9:33:45 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, nf6x at nf6x.net writes: > On Jun 5, 2016, at 14:02, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2015/05/fazendo-o-expletiva-cabo-da-duodisk.html > > Better than nothing :) Nice hack! Too bad that Noy guy defaced his computer. :D -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From spedraja at ono.com Mon Jun 6 02:01:10 2016 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 09:01:10 +0200 Subject: Xerox Star Software Images Available In-Reply-To: <1768cfa6-89d0-d3f8-ec1f-543504b3a927@bitsavers.org> References: <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <36c1869e-81f7-1d12-19c8-fae7e92629f1@bitsavers.org> <1768cfa6-89d0-d3f8-ec1f-543504b3a927@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2016-06-05 23:22 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow : > http://dandelion.sen.cx/ > > On 6/5/16 2:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > there has been mention of someone reverse engineering the linear power > supply > > > > > > ?Any emulator ready to run this software? Kind Regards ?Sergio From dave at 661.org Mon Jun 6 02:57:33 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 07:57:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Deth Specula and SCO Message-ID: Once upon a time there was a band made up mostly of SCO employees called "Deth Specula". Their heyday was in the early to mid 1990s. Does anyone remember them? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jun 6 04:36:02 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 05:36:02 -0400 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: <83900074-955d-7e09-c744-06ad3875be52@btinternet.com> References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> <83900074-955d-7e09-c744-06ad3875be52@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57554402.4060404@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > On 06/06/2016 03:51, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> I have a box full of 8" floppies. BTW how many 8" floppies do you >>> think there were in an RT11 distribution? >> >> I can't remember for sure, but I think there were eight SSDD (RX02) >> floppies >> plus an Auto-Install floppy. That would have been for V05.06 of >> RT-11 which >> requires over 6,800 blocks for an RL02 disk pack. Since some of the >> files >> get duplicated, eight seems about right. >> >> I doubt that V05.07 of RT-11 from Mentec was ever supported on RX02 >> floppies. The size of the binary distribution for V05.07 of RT-11 is >> over >> 16,600 blocks on an RL02 disk pack of which over 9,000 blocks are >> DSK files (one of which is 7,000 blocks) which Mentec added to the >> V05.07 RT-11 distribution. >> >> Using RX01 floppies will take many more since there are only half the >> blocks >> or 494 blocks on a SSSD (RX01) floppy. >> >> Do you have any other questions? I don't know of any RT-11 >> distributions >> on RX02 image files for either V05.06 or V05.07 of RT-11. There may >> be some for earlier versions. > > The first one out of the box read 1/87 and its not the date. Can you provide a DIR of the first few floppies? The names and sizes of the files will pin down which version of RT-11 if the actual dates were not correct. Otherwise, the dates of the files, if they are correct, will specify the version of RT-11 if the dates are 1983 (or after) when V05.00 of RT-11 was released. Before 1983, there were many updates, so there is more confusion. Internally, each SAV file has a version and each MAC file also has a version number which will also help identify the file aside from a BINCOM to compare two files. Jerome Fine From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 09:25:08 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 16:25:08 +0200 Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level In-Reply-To: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> References: <002901d1b83d$52c01190$f84034b0$@net> Message-ID: On 27 May 2016 at 19:29, Ali wrote: > So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he > is less than impressed is understating things :). Honestly, not wishing to be off-putting or anything, but that was a widely-agreed crap computer in 1981 & it's about 3 orders of magnitude worse now. It was nasty hardware with a crude clunky OS and a poor BASIC. Staying in the retro world, if you wanted a kid to learn BASIC -- and that's a dubious choice, today, much as I still love it myself -- then I'd suggest something like a Raspberry Pi Zero running RISC OS Pico. That gives you a fast native 32-bit OS on a 32-bit CPU, the best BASIC interpreter ever -- BBC BASIC V -- with an integrated (if weird) editor. It's very fast, even today. They could learn about grown-up stuff like named procedures, recursion and so on, in a BASIC that lets you declare and manipulate a 300-400MB array and play with it. No 64kB limits or anything, no graphical desktop, no distractions. There are plentiful books on BBC BASIC, both for the BBC Micro and the later RISC OS machine range. And BASIC programs in that interpreter will run at something near the speed of compiled Pascal on an IBM PC. Cost of hardware: GBP 5. (Assuming you can spare a mouse, keyboard, screen, a USB wall-wart and a small MicroSD card.) Cost of software: GBP 0. Free download. But more seriously, something like Scratch on a Raspberry Pi 3 would be a much more pleasant environment for a C21 kid. More colourful, interactive, interesting and it too is free software running on a GBP 25 computer. That's about USD 35. https://www.quora.com/If-a-10-year-old-wanted-to-start-programming-today-what-language-path-would-be-the-most-valuable-moving-forward Honestly, I suspect that a slow, clunky, noisy old antique with limited old-fashioned tools would turn a little kid off computers forever. I have no kids but if I did, I wouldn't start them with a Sinclair ZX Spectrum, even if it's what I started on! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 09:29:52 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 16:29:52 +0200 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: <40d260c1-61e0-f1e8-bca3-09a808a50617@pobox.com> References: <005801d1bd18$1d82c830$58885890$@net> <40d260c1-61e0-f1e8-bca3-09a808a50617@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 5 June 2016 at 18:01, Andrew M Hoerter wrote: > I have a couple of buckling-spring Unicomps as well as IBM model M's, and > while I would agree that the IBM version is more heavily built, I think the > Unicomp is of reasonable quality. At least for people who don't plan to use > it as a deadly weapon. > > It would have been nice if they had made the cable detachable though. > > Also, I'm not sure it's fair to call Unicomp a "clone", as I understand it > they were either an OEM for IBM, or acquired the production assets from > them, or something along those lines. Pretty close to the real thing in my > view. I think IBM offloaded the keyboards line to Lexmark, who offloaded it to Unicomp. So, yes, it's legit, you're right, not a clone. The one unit I have tried felt rough and poorly-built compared to the Real Thing, and it failed after a few months. I understand the owner got a warranty repair and that failed, but I think he has a working one now. As it happens I was chatting with his housemate today on Twitter and I think it's still working now. But then, he is on the list, so he could answer for himself if he liked. :-) For an expensive keyboard, it did feel cheap to me -- including, as you say, the captive cable. I would have liked to see proper onboard USB using a standard cable, perhaps with a 2nd port for a mouse. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From pdaguytom at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 09:44:06 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 09:44:06 -0500 Subject: Not able to post to the list Message-ID: Checking to see if I am now able to post to the list. Tom From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 09:44:13 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 16:44:13 +0200 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <57544305.60800@sydex.com> References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5 June 2016 at 17:19, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I doubt it. The ED floppy did not come at a good time. Clone (okay, > second-source) manufacturers had adopted the HD format wholesale and the > price of HD floppies themselves had dropped to the level of DD prices. > By 1990, most if not all, new PCs had HD droves and even Apple was able > to understand the PC format. When ED floppies were released to the > general unwashed public, integrated FDCs largely could not handle the > 1Mbps data rate, so adopting the format meant changing the FDC (fraught > with problems if said FDC was integrated into the motherboard) and > buying a new drive and expensive media. Perhaps the media price would > have fallen if adopted. That's not a sure thing, however--prices never > fell on floptical (3M superdisk, Caleb SHD, etc.) media. > > Also, by 1990, IBM was no longer an industry leader in PCs, nor did it > set the technical standards (MCA pretty much did that in). > > But I don't think that a high-capacity Zip would have made a dent in the > CD-R market. I'm not aware of many consumer-grade audio players that > can handle Zip disks of any stripe. > > Too little, too late is probably another aspect. Hmm. I got a blog post out of this: http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/49563.html ... where I developed the idea slightly. Others on FB agree with you. The HD 3.5" (1.4MB under MS-DOS) floppy itself was a big leap from the DD (720kB) one. Most of the 16-bitters never made it: the disk controllers of the Atari ST, Amiga, etc. couldn't handle it. AFAIK there's only one ZX Spectrum interface that did -- the Czech MB02: http://www.benophetinternet.nl/hobby/mb02/ I must confess I rather fancy one. :-) So, yes, ED was a big step, but so was HD in its time. I think the IBM PS/2 (1987) was the origin, right? And there was never a 720kB IBM standard, only on things like Apricots. According to Wikipedia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Sizes.2C_performance_and_capacity ... the 3.5" timeline was: * 1983 -- SS/DD * 1984 -- DS/DD, probably the most widespread * 1986 -- HD, the PC standard * 1987 -- ED, the 2.8MB ones that didn't catch on * 1991 -- 21MB floptical * 1994 -- 100MB Zip * 1996 -- 120MB floptical * 1997 -- 240MB floptical That gap from '87 to the equally unsuccessful 21MB format, was the killer, IMHO. If everyone had adopted the ~3MB disks, it might have lived, but that probably wasn't enough on its own. Thus my speculation as to whether pure magnetic ~6MB diskettes might have been viable around 1988-1989 and ~12MB ones around 1990. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 09:48:20 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:48:20 -0300 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: References: <005801d1bd18$1d82c830$58885890$@net> <40d260c1-61e0-f1e8-bca3-09a808a50617@pobox.com> Message-ID: <57558D34.9030805@gmail.com> On 2016-06-06 11:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I think IBM offloaded the keyboards line to Lexmark, who offloaded it > to Unicomp. So, yes, it's legit, you're right, not a clone. The one > unit I have tried felt rough and poorly-built compared to the Real > Thing, and it failed after a few months. I understand the owner got a > warranty repair and that failed, but I think he has a working one now. > As it happens I was chatting with his housemate today on Twitter and I > think it's still working now. But then, he is on the list, so he could > answer for himself if he liked. :-) For an expensive keyboard, it did > feel cheap to me -- including, as you say, the captive cable. I would > have liked to see proper onboard USB using a standard cable, perhaps > with a 2nd port for a mouse What became Lexmark was originally the IBM typewriter plant in Lexington Ky., when the typewriter business was winding down they where given the mission of producing keyboards among other things. Later it was severed off from IBM and became Lexmark, much the same way as the IBM Toronto plant became Celestica. Unicomp came along still later and apparently bought the keyboard designs from Lexmark, after Lexmark was no longer interested in producing keyboards. Paul. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 6 10:08:13 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 08:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > And there was never a 720kB IBM standard, only on things like Apricots. Could you explain? 720K was just as much of an IBM "standard" as 360K. Starting with PC-DOS 3.20, ("/F:2"). Sure, other companies used the same media for different formats, but nowhere near as much as 5.25". "Convertible", PS/2, optional in and external to AT. If a good 150RPM ED drive were to have been readily available, then 2.8M could have been retrofitted to all 1.4M systems, including Amiga, etc. But would that, and the Barium-Ferrite disks have been worth it for just twice the capacity? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 6 10:09:34 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 08:09:34 -0700 Subject: Xerox Star Software Images Available In-Reply-To: References: <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1208219876.5641983.1465151818935.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <36c1869e-81f7-1d12-19c8-fae7e92629f1@bitsavers.org> <1768cfa6-89d0-d3f8-ec1f-543504b3a927@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <10e99bdf-3c4f-3a7c-eb36-82c07ea9ff93@bitsavers.org> On 6/6/16 12:01 AM, SPC wrote: > ?Any emulator ready to run this software? > Not yet. One of the MAME developers was looking at IOP board simulation last year. In terms of complexity, the 8010 is somewhere between the Alto and the 6085, similar to the PERQ. Don Woodward's 6085 simulator (DAWN) doesn't actually simulate down to the hardware level and it runs a very late version of the Mesa "PricOps" instruction definition. I need to dig through my hard disks and see if I have a late enough version of XDE that can run on it. I haven't tried XDE 5.0, which is the latest version that I have on floppies. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 6 10:17:20 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 16:17:20 +0100 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: <57554402.4060404@compsys.to> References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> <83900074-955d-7e09-c744-06ad3875be52@btinternet.com> <57554402.4060404@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 06/06/2016 10:36, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> On 06/06/2016 03:51, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>>> I have a box full of 8" floppies. BTW how many 8" floppies do you >>>> think there were in an RT11 distribution? >>> >>> I can't remember for sure, but I think there were eight SSDD (RX02) >>> floppies >>> plus an Auto-Install floppy. That would have been for V05.06 of >>> RT-11 which >>> requires over 6,800 blocks for an RL02 disk pack. Since some of the >>> files >>> get duplicated, eight seems about right. >>> >>> I doubt that V05.07 of RT-11 from Mentec was ever supported on RX02 >>> floppies. The size of the binary distribution for V05.07 of RT-11 >>> is over >>> 16,600 blocks on an RL02 disk pack of which over 9,000 blocks are >>> DSK files (one of which is 7,000 blocks) which Mentec added to the >>> V05.07 RT-11 distribution. >>> >>> Using RX01 floppies will take many more since there are only half >>> the blocks >>> or 494 blocks on a SSSD (RX01) floppy. >>> >>> Do you have any other questions? I don't know of any RT-11 >>> distributions >>> on RX02 image files for either V05.06 or V05.07 of RT-11. There may >>> be some for earlier versions. >> >> The first one out of the box read 1/87 and its not the date. > > Can you provide a DIR of the first few floppies? The names and > sizes of the files will pin down which version of RT-11 if the > actual dates were not correct. Otherwise, the dates of the files, > if they are correct, will specify the version of RT-11 if the dates > are 1983 (or after) when V05.00 of RT-11 was released. Before > 1983, there were many updates, so there is more confusion. > > Internally, each SAV file has a version and each MAC file also > has a version number which will also help identify the file aside > from a BINCOM to compare two files. > > Jerome Fine Hi Jerome It a little difficult to do a dir when I have yet to get the drive I would do it on working So I'm just inventorying this box of 8" floppies. There are a number (14) of clear packages with DEC original sets in They are marked RT-11 , RT11 V4.5B or RT11 V4.5C Plus loose disks with RT11 utilities and OS/8 disks I do have a pair of RX01's but I am less sure about the controller. Also available is a TK50 UNIBUS CONTROLLER not a TUK50 CONTROLLER as sometimes described. Rod From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 10:28:51 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:28:51 +0200 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6 June 2016 at 17:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> And there was never a 720kB IBM standard, only on things like Apricots. > > > Could you explain? > 720K was just as much of an IBM "standard" as 360K. Starting with PC-DOS > 3.20, ("/F:2"). Sure, other companies used the same media for different > formats, but nowhere near as much as 5.25". > "Convertible", PS/2, optional in and external to AT. I thought you might chime in on this. AIUI -- not sure -- the 720 kB *format* was mostly used on 5.25" DS/DD 80-track disks, no? Apricot and other vendors shipped MS-DOS machines with only 3.5" DS/DD/80t drives. The same format was the standard diskette type of the Atari ST, too. But AFAIK IBM never shipped machines with DS/DD/80t track drives as standard, did it? *Possibly* as a 2nd drive, but not as the stock. I thought the IBM PC-compatibles came with: #1 DS/DD/40t, 5.25", 360 kB (PC, PC-XT etc., 1981) #2 DS/HD/80t, 5.25", 1.2MB (PC-AT, 1984) #3 DS/HD/80t, 3.5", 1.4MB (PS/2, 1987) And finally the not-widely-copied DS/ED/80t 2.8MB drives. > If a good 150RPM ED drive were to have been readily available, then 2.8M > could have been retrofitted to all 1.4M systems, including Amiga, etc. But > would that, and the Barium-Ferrite disks have been worth it for just twice > the capacity? Wouldn't they have got much cheaper if every cloner had used them? The cloners copied the 1.2MB and 1.4MB drives, but not the 2.8 ones. Was media expense the main problem? Or expensive FDC chips? Or both? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Mon Jun 6 10:31:09 2016 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:31:09 -0400 Subject: Not able to post to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01d1c008$74617370$5d245a50$@sc.rr.com> Yep, I see your post! Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of pdaguytom . > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 10:44 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Not able to post to the list > > Checking to see if I am now able to post to the list. > > Tom From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 6 13:31:40 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:31:40 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5755C18C.3090108@sydex.com> On 06/06/2016 08:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > AIUI -- not sure -- the 720 kB *format* was mostly used on 5.25" > DS/DD 80-track disks, no? I'm not sure what you consider 720K, so the question is hard to answer. On MS-DOS machines? Perhaps, but there weren't a lot of them in comparison to the IBM PC and its ilk. But IBM offered the "slimline" 3.5" drive pretty early on; see the O&A section on it--and it was indeed a DD "720K" formatted application. (FWIW, the earliest drives on the 5150 were used as 160K and 320K format implementors.) >> If a good 150RPM ED drive were to have been readily available, then >> 2.8M could have been retrofitted to all 1.4M systems, including >> Amiga, etc. But would that, and the Barium-Ferrite disks have been >> worth it for just twice the capacity? > > Wouldn't they have got much cheaper if every cloner had used them? Slow-spinning floppy drives are at best, a kludge. Like a lot of other physical phenomena, the energy induced in a read/write head is roughly proportional to rotation speed. Low speed -> low output. So not such a good idea. I liked the idea of the 600 RPM 3.5" Sony drives. --Chuck From lists at loomcom.com Mon Jun 6 14:58:40 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 14:58:40 -0500 Subject: AT&T In-Reply-To: <001501d1bf64$70bacc20$52306460$@com> References: <001501d1bf64$70bacc20$52306460$@com> Message-ID: <20160606195840.GA15657@loomcom.com> * On Sun, Jun 05, 2016 at 02:57:07PM -0500, Electronics Plus wrote: > Who was it has the AT&T, wanted the books and disks? I just found the 5.25" > floppies for AT&T for the C compiler, Pascal, etc. > > Maybe it was Seth? Hi Cindy, Yes, I've been looking for AT&T 3B2 software. Is this for the 3B2 or the 3B1? -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 6 15:06:35 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 13:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> Message-ID: >>> And there was never a 720kB IBM standard, only on things like Apricots. >> Could you explain? >> 720K was just as much of an IBM "standard" as 360K. Starting with PC-DOS >> 3.20, ("/F:2"). Sure, other companies used the same media for different >> formats, but nowhere near as much as 5.25". >> "Convertible", PS/2, optional in and external to AT. On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > I thought you might chime in on this. > AIUI -- not sure -- the 720 kB *format* was mostly used on 5.25" DS/DD > 80-track disks, no? It was used on 5.25" DSDD 80 track, by MANY companies other than IBM at 640K to 800K, and marketing people called it "quad density". Superbrain/Intertec called it "Super Density", and abbreviated it "SD"!! (therefore a Superbrain DSSD meant 800K) IBM did not go there much. They did use that on the PCJX, but not on anything in USA. BUT, the 720K 3.5" was heavily used. MS/PC-DOS 3.20 ushered in the official acceptance of 3.5" 720K. (A few MS-DOS OEMs had had 3.5" already, such as Gavilan, DG-1, Toshiba) That was the only drive choice for the "Convertible", IBM's not especially successful first attempt at a laptop, and the PS/2 model 25 and 30. (Didn't some of those use a cut-down model M keyboard w/o a numeric pad?) IBM sold external 3.5" drives to add to PS/2, 5150, 5160, 5170, but they were not very popular - kinda expensive. Some PS/2 owners added external 5.25", but most PS/2 owners didn't need an additional 3.5" drive. IBM sold a 3.5" 720K drive with oversize faceplate and cradle to fit 5170. With the PS/2-286, IBM added 1.4M with PC-DOS 3.30. The 80286 and above PS/2s were available with either 720K or 1.4M drives, but with no significant price differential, nobody but the most ignorant college administrators (still in trauma from 360K/1.2M) would pick the 720K. Lack of a media detector in IBM's PS/2 1.4M drives meant that many users unintentionally, or without caring, formatted 720K disks to 1.4M. The coervicity was close enough (600? V 720? Oersted) that it was believed by most that that was perfectly acceptable. We all think that 2.8M support came sometime in DOS4.00 or 4.01, but Wikipedia level of non-authorities say 5.00. > Apricot and other vendors shipped MS-DOS machines with only 3.5" > DS/DD/80t drives. The same format was the standard diskette type of > the Atari ST, too. and early Amiga (#1000, etc.) > But AFAIK IBM never shipped machines with DS/DD/80t track drives as > standard, did it? *Possibly* as a 2nd drive, but not as the stock. I > thought the IBM PC-compatibles came with: > #1 DS/DD/40t, 5.25", 360 kB (PC, PC-XT etc., 1981) (further subdivided with same FDC as SS, DS, 8spt, 9spt) > #2 DS/HD/80t, 5.25", 1.2MB (PC-AT, 1984) > #3 DS/HD/80t, 3.5", 1.4MB (PS/2, 1987) That should be #0 DS/DD/40t, 5.25", 360 kB (PC, PC-XT etc., 1981) (further subdivided with same FDC as SS, DS, 8spt, 9spt) #1 DS/HD/80t, 5.25", 1.2MB (PC-AT, 1984) #2 DS/DD/80t, 3.5", 720K (Convertible,8086 PS/2, 1986) #7 DS/HD/80t, 3.5", 1.4M (PS/2, 1987) #9 DS/ED/80t, 3.5", 2.8M (barely ever in PS/2) (DRIVPARM/DRIVER.SYS numbering) (#3 and #4 were 8" until about 6.00, but MICROS~1 doesn't like to talk about 8") #5 was hard disk #6 was tape #8 was optical disk >> If a good 150RPM ED drive were to have been readily available, then 2.8M >> could have been retrofitted to all 1.4M systems, including Amiga, etc. But >> would that, and the Barium-Ferrite disks have been worth it for just twice >> the capacity? 150RPM drives (and 180RPM 1.2M (Weltec)) existed (Amiga), but were never any good. They never got that kludge to work well enough. "A kludge born of desperation" > Wouldn't they have got much cheaper if every cloner had used them? of course > The cloners copied the 1.2MB and 1.4MB drives, but not the 2.8 ones. > Was media expense the main problem? yes Barium-ferrite disks never got into sufficiently massive production. > Or expensive FDC chips? Or both? NOT expensive, nor chips. FDC board/support circuitry. The 765 or equivalent FDC CHIP had no problem with it. A 5150/5160 FDC board runs at 250K bits per second data transfer rate (THAT is Kilo, not Kibi) A 5170 FDC board needs to handle 250K bits per second for 360K formats, 500K bits per second for 1.2M, and 300K bits per second for 360K disk in 1.2M drive. Later, two speed drives came out, eliminating further need for that speed, but it was already in the designs. A 2.8M FDC circuit needs to also support 1000K bits per second data transfer rate. Therefore, adding a 2.8M drive would require replacing the FDC board, Existing inventories of HD/FDC cards would all need to be jettisoned. And motherboards were just starting to come out that had FDC support on the board. Yes, 2.8M was too little, too late. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 15:25:44 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 16:25:44 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> Message-ID: I noticed today that my mid 90's Digital AlphaServer 2100 4/275 has a 2.88Mb 3.5" drive. Bill From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jun 6 23:04:02 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 00:04:02 -0400 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night Message-ID: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> There's a big announcement happening from the Vintage Computer Federation tomorrow night. :) Stay tuned... From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jun 6 19:17:10 2016 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:17:10 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> On Jun 6, 2016, at 8:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > But AFAIK IBM never shipped machines with DS/DD/80t track drives as > standard, did it? Of course they did. PS/2 8530. ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jun 6 19:19:01 2016 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:19:01 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Jun 6, 2016, at 5:17 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > On Jun 6, 2016, at 8:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> But AFAIK IBM never shipped machines with DS/DD/80t track drives as >> standard, did it? > > Of course they did. PS/2 8530. Oops. And the 5140 "Convertible". ok bear. -- until further notice From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 6 19:42:06 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Jun 6, 2016, at 8:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> But AFAIK IBM never shipped machines with DS/DD/80t track drives as >>> standard, did it? On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, r.stricklin wrote: >> Of course they did. PS/2 8530. > Oops. And the 5140 "Convertible". and, if we interpret his original query as referring to 5.25" drives, (what were called "quad density" by marketing in the CP/M world), then there is the IBM PC/JX (which was not sold in USA) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From todd.george at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 22:17:23 2016 From: todd.george at gmail.com (Todd George) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 03:17:23 +0000 Subject: USB Keyboard Adapter (Was: Model M Key Cap Replacement) Message-ID: Ed: I've used Soarer's Mod which is built around the excellent Teensy 2.0 or Teensy++ 2.0. I've had great success on quite a few Model M keyboards with this mod. You can do a very clean internal mount as well on certain Model M keyboards. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0 Hope this helps! -Todd -----Original Message----- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 12:51:17 -0400 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com Subject: Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement > my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various usb > adapters and they could be flaky,... > you would have to start computer then have to unplug and reinsert > keyboard connection etc... > > anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# From tsw-cc at johana.com Mon Jun 6 22:19:54 2016 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 03:19:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? References: <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In following this thread, and taking in my "vast" Heathkit knowledge, I can only assume that the addition of a 'W' in the model number is to indicate a WIRED (at the factory) Heathkit. This may mean that the ETW-3400(a) is a wired version of the ET-3400(a). The difference that shows between the 'a' and non 'a' version is the space for four ram chips in the upper left visible corner of the PC board. The non-a version can have up to 4 ram chips (for a total of 512 bytes), but the a version has two 1024x4 chips, but only 512 bytes are available. Hope this answers some questions. (I have an ET3400-a version). From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 00:29:57 2016 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 22:29:57 -0700 Subject: USB Keyboard Adapter (Was: Model M Key Cap Replacement) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: this one also works really well https://sewelldirect.com/active-usb-to-ps2-adapter $6.95 us

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On 6/6/16, Todd George wrote: > Ed: > > I've used Soarer's Mod which is built around the excellent Teensy 2.0 or > Teensy++ 2.0. I've had great success on quite a few Model M keyboards with > this mod. You can do a very clean internal mount as well on certain Model > M keyboards. > > https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0 > > Hope this helps! > -Todd > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 12:51:17 -0400 > From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com > Subject: Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement > >> my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various usb >> adapters and they could be flaky,... >> you would have to start computer then have to unplug and reinsert >> keyboard connection etc... >> >> anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# > -- Chris Halarewich From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Jun 7 01:30:40 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 02:30:40 -0400 Subject: USB Keyboard Adapter (Was: Model M Key Cap Replacement) Message-ID: <45400d.1083bdf2.4487c410@aol.com> thanks I will look at this thanks!' Ed# In a message dated 6/6/2016 9:57:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, todd.george at gmail.com writes: Ed: I've used Soarer's Mod which is built around the excellent Teensy 2.0 or Teensy++ 2.0. I've had great success on quite a few Model M keyboards with this mod. You can do a very clean internal mount as well on certain Model M keyboards. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0 Hope this helps! -Todd -----Original Message----- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 12:51:17 -0400 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com Subject: Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement > my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various usb > adapters and they could be flaky,... > you would have to start computer then have to unplug and reinsert > keyboard connection etc... > > anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Jun 7 01:44:45 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 02:44:45 -0400 Subject: USB Keyboard Adapter (Was: Model M Key Cap Replacement) Message-ID: <454776.6cbb95c5.4487c75d@aol.com> will check it out! Thanks ed# In a message dated 6/6/2016 10:30:03 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, halarewich at gmail.com writes: this one also works really well https://sewelldirect.com/active-usb-to-ps2-adapter $6.95 us
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On 6/6/16, Todd George wrote: > Ed: > > I've used Soarer's Mod which is built around the excellent Teensy 2.0 or > Teensy++ 2.0. I've had great success on quite a few Model M keyboards with > this mod. You can do a very clean internal mount as well on certain Model > M keyboards. > > https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0 > > Hope this helps! > -Todd > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 12:51:17 -0400 > From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com > Subject: Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement > >> my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various usb >> adapters and they could be flaky,... >> you would have to start computer then have to unplug and reinsert >> keyboard connection etc... >> >> anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# > -- Chris Halarewich From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 7 05:04:39 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 11:04:39 +0100 Subject: CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIQ and HXIDL Message-ID: <063445bd-ad52-c0de-3f6d-4bec216c6d8d@btinternet.com> Hi Whilst sorting through my board collection I found a pair of dual height DEC style modules. CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIQ It looks like a ST interface (data and control connectors). But here's the kicker. Its got a transputer chip on it. The two connectors are wired to the second board (CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIDL) that has what looks like a flat cable SCSI connector as output. It looks like it was made in the UK (some RS Components parts) about 1992 by the date codes. Any ideas on this one guys. Rod From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 00:58:24 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 00:58:24 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: @Tom & All, "In following this thread, and taking in my "vast" Heathkit knowledge, I can only assume that the addition of a 'W' in the model number is to indicate a WIRED (at the factory) Heathkit." Fair enough, and it's as good a suggestion as anything heard so far. But again, you're confusing the (very easily confused) model names.. The ET-3400 and ET-3400A are the original "trainer" kits. These are the main computer module, with a calculator-style keyboard, 7-segment LED display, and either 512 bytes or 1KB RAM memory. I believe that the later 'A' version also includes the 4MHz crystal-controlled system clock upgrade, in addition to the larger RAM size. The expansion modules are confusingly called out as ETA-3400 (note, not ET-3400A) and ETW-3400. It's these latter two distinctions that are the cause of my (and apparently, much) confusion. But your suggestion that the 'W' substitution refers to a factory-wired unit makes good sense, at least in this case - because my ETW-3400 seems to have been factory built. It doesn't have any of the tell-tale signs of kit assembly. For instance, it appears that the board has been wave soldered and washed of flux. The rest of the workmanship gives the same impression of factory-quality assembly. So maybe that's all there is to it? The ETA-3400 is kit form, and the ETW-3400 is factory built? On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 10:19 PM, Tom Watson wrote: > In following this thread, and taking in my "vast" Heathkit knowledge, I > can only assume that the addition of a 'W' in the model number is to > indicate a WIRED (at the factory) Heathkit. > > > This may mean that the ETW-3400(a) is a wired version of the ET-3400(a). > > The difference that shows between the 'a' and non 'a' version is the space > for four ram chips in the upper left visible corner of the PC board. The > non-a version can have up to 4 ram chips (for a total of 512 bytes), but > the a version has two 1024x4 chips, but only 512 bytes are available. > > Hope this answers some questions. > > (I have an ET3400-a version). > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jun 7 06:12:12 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 07:12:12 -0400 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> <83900074-955d-7e09-c744-06ad3875be52@btinternet.com> <57554402.4060404@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5756AC0C.7090809@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On 06/06/2016 10:36, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> >On 06/06/2016 03:51, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> >>>> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a box full of 8" floppies. BTW how many 8" floppies do you >>>>> think there were in an RT11 distribution? >>>> >>>> >>>> I can't remember for sure, but I think there were eight SSDD (RX02) >>>> floppies >>>> plus an Auto-Install floppy. That would have been for V05.06 of >>>> RT-11 which >>>> requires over 6,800 blocks for an RL02 disk pack. Since some of >>>> the files >>>> get duplicated, eight seems about right. >>>> >>>> I doubt that V05.07 of RT-11 from Mentec was ever supported on RX02 >>>> floppies. The size of the binary distribution for V05.07 of RT-11 >>>> is over >>>> 16,600 blocks on an RL02 disk pack of which over 9,000 blocks are >>>> DSK files (one of which is 7,000 blocks) which Mentec added to the >>>> V05.07 RT-11 distribution. >>>> >>>> Using RX01 floppies will take many more since there are only half >>>> the blocks >>>> or 494 blocks on a SSSD (RX01) floppy. >>>> >>>> Do you have any other questions? I don't know of any RT-11 >>>> distributions >>>> on RX02 image files for either V05.06 or V05.07 of RT-11. There may >>>> be some for earlier versions. >>> >>> >>> The first one out of the box read 1/87 and its not the date. >> >> Can you provide a DIR of the first few floppies? The names and >> sizes of the files will pin down which version of RT-11 if the >> actual dates were not correct. Otherwise, the dates of the files, >> if they are correct, will specify the version of RT-11 if the dates >> are 1983 (or after) when V05.00 of RT-11 was released. Before >> 1983, there were many updates, so there is more confusion. >> >> Internally, each SAV file has a version and each MAC file also >> has a version number which will also help identify the file aside >> from a BINCOM to compare two files. > > It a little difficult to do a dir when I have yet to get the drive I > would do it on working > So I'm just inventorying this box of 8" floppies. > > There are a number (14) of clear packages with DEC original sets in > They are marked > RT-11 , RT11 V4.5B or RT11 V4.5C > Plus loose disks with RT11 utilities > and OS/8 disks > I do have a pair of RX01's but I am less sure about the controller. > > Also available is a TK50 UNIBUS CONTROLLER not a TUK50 CONTROLLER as > sometimes described. The only two relevant dates that I am confident of are for the RT-11 binary distributions of: RT-11 V04.00 February 28th, 1980 152 files 3213 blocks RT-11 V05.00 March 12th, 1983 182 files 4026 blocks I assume that you may have distributions for V04.05B of RT-11 and V04.05C of RT-11. I seem to remember that between 1980 and 1982, DEC provided update files to users who were paying for the update service and that the users may have been responsible for applying the updates to their distributions in order to keep their RT-11 distributions up-to-date. If you have any additional information, please let us know and we can attempt to figure things out. Jerome Fine From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 7 06:50:01 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 12:50:01 +0100 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: <5756AC0C.7090809@compsys.to> References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> <83900074-955d-7e09-c744-06ad3875be52@btinternet.com> <57554402.4060404@compsys.to> <5756AC0C.7090809@compsys.to> Message-ID: <2c0cb9bd-a478-0e26-ab91-6b53c9f072a4@btinternet.com> On 07/06/2016 12:12, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >On 06/06/2016 10:36, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>>> >On 06/06/2016 03:51, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>>> >>>>> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have a box full of 8" floppies. BTW how many 8" floppies do you >>>>>> think there were in an RT11 distribution? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I can't remember for sure, but I think there were eight SSDD >>>>> (RX02) floppies >>>>> plus an Auto-Install floppy. That would have been for V05.06 of >>>>> RT-11 which >>>>> requires over 6,800 blocks for an RL02 disk pack. Since some of >>>>> the files >>>>> get duplicated, eight seems about right. >>>>> >>>>> I doubt that V05.07 of RT-11 from Mentec was ever supported on RX02 >>>>> floppies. The size of the binary distribution for V05.07 of RT-11 >>>>> is over >>>>> 16,600 blocks on an RL02 disk pack of which over 9,000 blocks are >>>>> DSK files (one of which is 7,000 blocks) which Mentec added to the >>>>> V05.07 RT-11 distribution. >>>>> >>>>> Using RX01 floppies will take many more since there are only half >>>>> the blocks >>>>> or 494 blocks on a SSSD (RX01) floppy. >>>>> >>>>> Do you have any other questions? I don't know of any RT-11 >>>>> distributions >>>>> on RX02 image files for either V05.06 or V05.07 of RT-11. There may >>>>> be some for earlier versions. >>>> >>>> >>>> The first one out of the box read 1/87 and its not the date. >>> >>> Can you provide a DIR of the first few floppies? The names and >>> sizes of the files will pin down which version of RT-11 if the >>> actual dates were not correct. Otherwise, the dates of the files, >>> if they are correct, will specify the version of RT-11 if the dates >>> are 1983 (or after) when V05.00 of RT-11 was released. Before >>> 1983, there were many updates, so there is more confusion. >>> >>> Internally, each SAV file has a version and each MAC file also >>> has a version number which will also help identify the file aside >>> from a BINCOM to compare two files. >> >> It a little difficult to do a dir when I have yet to get the drive I >> would do it on working >> So I'm just inventorying this box of 8" floppies. >> >> There are a number (14) of clear packages with DEC original sets in >> They are marked >> RT-11 , RT11 V4.5B or RT11 V4.5C >> Plus loose disks with RT11 utilities >> and OS/8 disks >> I do have a pair of RX01's but I am less sure about the controller. >> >> Also available is a TK50 UNIBUS CONTROLLER not a TUK50 CONTROLLER as >> sometimes described. > > The only two relevant dates that I am confident of are for the RT-11 > binary distributions of: > > RT-11 V04.00 February 28th, 1980 152 files 3213 blocks > RT-11 V05.00 March 12th, 1983 182 files 4026 blocks > > I assume that you may have distributions for V04.05B of RT-11 and > V04.05C of RT-11. I seem to remember that between 1980 and 1982, > DEC provided update files to users who were paying for the update > service and that the users may have been responsible for applying the > updates to their distributions in order to keep their RT-11 distributions > up-to-date. > > If you have any additional information, please let us know and we can > attempt to figure things out. > > Jerome Fine Well I have moved on a bit more. My 11/83 is back together and booting RT on the RD53 via the RQDX3 as normal. I found not one but two RXV21 RX02 controllers. So I'll give them a try in the 11/83 and see what happens. I'll soon know if the RX02 is good or not. If not I'll fix it (my era - TTL) Regards Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 7 08:03:29 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 09:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/[9]4 latest Message-ID: <20160607130329.3D23318C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> Unexpected trap to location 114 > Well, 0114 is the 'memory system error' vector - i.e. parity, or > un-recoverable ECC error. > ... > I'm too lazy to read the 11/94 and J-11 manuals to see what the 11/94 > has in the way of registers that record memory issues Finally found a moment to take a gander at that: The KDJ11-E memory seems to be parity only, not ECC. There's a Parity CSR at 17772100, which will tell us if a parity error was detected in the main (on-board) memory. There's also a Memory System Error Register at 17777744, but that's only there for backward compatability, and I'm not sure it will tell us much. It might also be good to look at the system CSR at 17777526, which will tell us if the firmware has set the memory size to how much memory is actually on the machine. There does not appear, alas, to be a register that indicates _where_ the parity error happened. However, if it's happening regularly (and still, as in 'problem disappeared in the process of diagnosis') we should be able to work out where it is. Although I'm still somewhat astonished that a persistent parity error wasn't picked up by the self-test on power-on. > From: Rod Smallwood > If we look at what an 11/94 is then its a single board CPU ... in a > three slot back plane. There after its UNIBUS So is there any thing we > can put in the spare QBUS slot without doing any damage? In theory, you should be able to plug most QBUS boards into those slots (although if there are QBUS cards that barf in a Q/CD slot, one couldn't use them - I can't recall if any such exist, though), but... no device board is going to work properly since the two QBUS bus grant lines (BDMG and BIAK) will be wired past those slots, directly from the CPU to the KTJ11. On the 11/84 backplane, there are a couple of jumpers that _can_ send the bus grants through the 'QBUS' slots on the 11/84 backplane (so _in theory_ one should be able to plus QBUS devices into those slots, and have them function correctly, when those jumpers are set appropriately, but we have yet to confirm that), but I don't know if the /94 backplane has anything similar. Alas, there are no 11/94 prints online (that I know of) to confirm that. > I found not one but two RXV21 RX02 controllers. So I'll give them a try > in the 11/83 and see what happens. I'll soon know if the RX02 is good > or not. Excellent! The more known good, working components we have to play with, the better! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 7 09:01:06 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 10:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KY11-LB drawing error Message-ID: <20160607140106.535B818C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > it turns out there's an error in the KY11-LB drawings. > ... > I have 'fixed' a copy of that page from the print set, and will (soon) > issue an updated PDF. OK, I finally got a round tuit; new version here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/MP00015_KY11-LB_Jan78.pdf (same place as the old version, now deprecated). Noel From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jun 7 09:06:35 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 14:06:35 +0000 Subject: Osborne 1 in San Antonio In-Reply-To: <5756AC0C.7090809@compsys.to> References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> <83900074-955d-7e09-c744-06ad3875be52@btinternet.com> <57554402.4060404@compsys.to> <5756AC0C.7090809@compsys.to> Message-ID: All, this advertisement appeared yesterday in my company newsletter classifieds: Working Osborne 1982 Computer, model OCC-1, S/N 119840, with Users Reference Guide, software programs: Word Star, Lotus 1-2-3, Pearl, Chef, Paschal, MSBasic, Super Calc, and CBasic. $150. Pictures available. Contact Athena at hough@ gvtc.com or 210-445-0780. It is not likely to be a scam as only SwRI employees are allowed to place ads, but I have not contacted the seller directly. Other than being employed at the same place, no connection to the seller. She does not mention whether she?s willing to ship; I would expect not but might be convinced for a high enough offer. - Mark From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Tue Jun 7 05:28:37 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 20:28:37 +1000 Subject: CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIQ and HXIDL In-Reply-To: <063445bd-ad52-c0de-3f6d-4bec216c6d8d@btinternet.com> References: <063445bd-ad52-c0de-3f6d-4bec216c6d8d@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <4300ef50-81b4-ee90-7313-7151d833dbce@labyrinth.net.au> On 7/06/2016 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIQ Here is the google link to a book reference, loks to be it. Lionel. From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Tue Jun 7 05:30:17 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 20:30:17 +1000 Subject: CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIQ and HXIDL -0 oops In-Reply-To: <063445bd-ad52-c0de-3f6d-4bec216c6d8d@btinternet.com> References: <063445bd-ad52-c0de-3f6d-4bec216c6d8d@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <7a6e9a95-a1df-1046-9ab0-fa7898756433@labyrinth.net.au> On 7/06/2016 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIQ This time, with the link. ( Please excuse - aged brain cells. ) https://books.google.com.au/books?id=HZzeBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=CAPLIN+CYBERNETICS+HXIQ&source=bl&ots=IidlVxo_f0&sig=Zu6z7T06mAbz4a2N9FGKWMHbZCk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirprnR2ZXNAhUFG5QKHSNIBecQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=CAPLIN%20CYBERNETICS%20HXIQ&f=false Lionel. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 7 06:37:42 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 12:37:42 +0100 Subject: CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIQ and HXIDL -0 oops In-Reply-To: <7a6e9a95-a1df-1046-9ab0-fa7898756433@labyrinth.net.au> References: <063445bd-ad52-c0de-3f6d-4bec216c6d8d@btinternet.com> <7a6e9a95-a1df-1046-9ab0-fa7898756433@labyrinth.net.au> Message-ID: <9791c003-0b11-ddb8-94d8-cb12b47deba9@btinternet.com> On 07/06/2016 11:30, Lionel Johnson wrote: > On 7/06/2016 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> CAPLIN CYBERNETICS HXIQ > > This time, with the link. ( Please excuse - aged brain cells. ) > > https://books.google.com.au/books?id=HZzeBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=CAPLIN+CYBERNETICS+HXIQ&source=bl&ots=IidlVxo_f0&sig=Zu6z7T06mAbz4a2N9FGKWMHbZCk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirprnR2ZXNAhUFG5QKHSNIBecQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=CAPLIN%20CYBERNETICS%20HXIQ&f=false > > > Lionel. > > > Yes when one retires senior takes on a whole new meaning!! Yes that's the one! The HXIDL must be their bus interface. What a challenge ! Only two out of I don't know how many boards neeeded and UK made. No software Who's up for trying to get that lot back together.? Rod From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 07:01:20 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:01:20 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: References: <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > @Tom & All, > > "In following this thread, and taking in my "vast" Heathkit knowledge, I > can only assume that the addition of a 'W' in the model number is to > indicate a WIRED (at the factory) Heathkit." > > Fair enough, and it's as good a suggestion as anything heard so far. But > again, you're confusing the (very easily confused) model names.. > > The ET-3400 and ET-3400A are the original "trainer" kits. These are the > main computer module, with a calculator-style keyboard, 7-segment LED > display, and either 512 bytes or 1KB RAM memory. I believe that the later > 'A' version also includes the 4MHz crystal-controlled system clock upgrade, > in addition to the larger RAM size. > > The expansion modules are confusingly called out as ETA-3400 (note, not > ET-3400A) and ETW-3400. It's these latter two distinctions that are the > cause of my (and apparently, much) confusion. But your suggestion that the > 'W' substitution refers to a factory-wired unit makes good sense, at least > in this case - because my ETW-3400 seems to have been factory built. > > It doesn't have any of the tell-tale signs of kit assembly. For instance, > it appears that the board has been wave soldered and washed of flux. The > rest of the workmanship gives the same impression of factory-quality > assembly. > > So maybe that's all there is to it? The ETA-3400 is kit form, and the > ETW-3400 is factory built? > > > > On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 10:19 PM, Tom Watson wrote: > > > In following this thread, and taking in my "vast" Heathkit knowledge, I > > can only assume that the addition of a 'W' in the model number is to > > indicate a WIRED (at the factory) Heathkit. > > > > > > This may mean that the ETW-3400(a) is a wired version of the ET-3400(a). > > > > The difference that shows between the 'a' and non 'a' version is the > space > > for four ram chips in the upper left visible corner of the PC board. The > > non-a version can have up to 4 ram chips (for a total of 512 bytes), but > > the a version has two 1024x4 chips, but only 512 bytes are available. > > > > Hope this answers some questions. > > > > (I have an ET3400-a version). > > > >From the Modification Kit page 1 "This Modification Kit will let you interface the ET3400 and the ET-3400A Microprocessor Trainers with the ETA-3400A or EWA-3400A Microprocessor I/O Memory Accessory...." ".....The following steps will modify your Heath ET-3400 Microprocessor Trainer so it will operate with the ETA/EWA-3400 Memory I/O Accessory....." There is a manual for the ETA that includes both Tiny Basic and Wintek monitor. It just makes sense to me that T = Tiny Basic (and Wintek monitor), EWA means Wintek monitor (only). To prove this, find the manual entitled: "SOFTWARE REFERENCE MANUAL for the MEMORY AND INPUT/OUTPUT ACCESSORY for the ET-3400 Trainer Model EWA-3400 The ETA version part number is 595-2271-01, the EWA must be close to that. Back then, getting an extra BASIC ROM would have been a measurable expense, especially for a school that had no use for BASIC to be included in their trainers. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 07:06:24 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:06:24 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: References: <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: CORRECTION I am wrong. The W means assembled in the factory apparently. http://heathkit.garlanger.com/catalogs/1979/Heathkit_Catalog_845.pdf For another $47 you could by the chipset for either the W or T versions. Sorry about that. b From bryan at bceassociates.com Tue Jun 7 09:32:09 2016 From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 10:32:09 -0400 Subject: SunOS 4 Message-ID: Hi, I have really fond memories of this operating system (from before the SVR4 Solaris days). It was the first UNIX I used (and I'm still a big BSD fan). (Not sure what the protocol is here for asking something like this so if I run afoul of a copyright policy or something, just tell me to stop asking and I will.) Is there any way someone can get their hands on an install disc for this? I have some old SPARC hardware that it would be fun to run on if I could find the installer. Thanks, Bryan From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Jun 7 12:35:50 2016 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 13:35:50 -0400 Subject: FS: (PURGE) all sorts of classic computer parts, computers, networking, ink/toner, etc Message-ID: Hi everyone, I am looking to clean out some of my stuff. I'm 'buried' in it. This is just the begnning.... so if you are looking for anything in particular; PC, Mac, Sun, SGI, misc, feel free to inquire. If you want to get heard above the noise when replying (spam sucks), add PURGE into the subject line.... that will help me find responses or inquiries fast. So, here is the first batch of stuff, organized by drives, misc, kvm, wireless, PC, laptop, Sun, SGI, Apple, Digital (DEC), Cisco, and finaly toner and ink cartridges. Obviously there are so many items here, it would take time to price all this stuff. So I'm open to reasonable offers. I'm not trying to make it rich, I'm looking for a reasonable amount so that you get a decent deal, and I get this stuff move on out. Eventually if it doesn't move it will go into storage, recylced, or dumpstered. I've got to get some space back. There are lots of parts here, but also some completed (or mostly complete) Macs, PC, Sun, SGI, etc. I have some older PC laptops to list, and I'll have more Mac, Sun, SGI, and more to list as time goes on. But I have to start somewhere.... so here is the list.... Drives (hard drive, optical drive, mo drive, etc) ------------------------------------------------- SCSI hard drives (too many to list) (I have a number of Sun and generic, i.e. good number of ST11200N, and some ST31200N for an example) IDE hard drives (too many to list) SATA hard drives (qty of 250G, a few others) ESDI hard drives (a few) MFM hard drives (some, i.e. Maxtor XT1140, Maxtor XT2190, Micropolis 1325, etc) (I'm not dumping these, just listing them for those who know what they are and want to inquire with real offers, so this is listing for completeness, not to make space like most things here) Misc ---- 15" XVGA LCD monitor, no stand, but includes a wall mount bracket. Power supply included. RJ45F to DB25M kits. Still sealed, make your own pinout Canon SX printer parts (inquire with what you are looking for) New Compaq Ipaq, was only charged and tried once, it has sat in a box since. Original packaging not present Qty 6 MeanWell ESP240-27 power supplies (27V 8A) AGA Discus 600M MO drive (external) Cabletron MT-800 MAU, 8 port AUI ethernet 'hub', untested Digtal DELNI-BA MAU, 8 port AUI ethernet 'hub', untested (may have 4 bad ports (4 labelled with an 'X' under them) Whistle Interjet (internet access/server appliance (google it)) HP Printer PAL (turn your PCL printer into a FAX receiver), new in box, never opened syquest SPARQ1A1 internal IDE 1.0G removable media drive (like the IOMega Jaz), untested (don't have media to test with) Ayquest SQ555, SCSI interface, 5.25" removable media drive, 44M capacity, no media, working pull KVM Stuff --------- Qty 3 Avocent Outlook 2160ES KVM (each has 16 ports, supports 2 consoles) (these can be daisy chained) Qty 17 Avocent KVM cables (106-2326-00) for the 2160ES (and other Avocent KVMs). Each cable supports 2 systems. Wireless Stuff -------------- 5 Summit SDC-CF10G 802.11G compact flash wireless cards with laptop style antenna connector, and one antenna lead/connector pig tail 5 Summit SDC-PC10G PCMCIA to Compact Flash adapters for the SDC-CF10G (and others?) wireless compact flash cards PC Stuff -------- Qty 1 Mouse Systems PC Jr Optical Mouse Gateway G6-200 PC (will got for a nice AT tower if all you need is a case) Qty 12+ Pentium III heatsink/fans. Server grade with IBM 22P4370 part # on them. Qty 3 VXI VRMs (073-20742-30) (IBM FRU 1K7371) 150W PC AT power supply ('mini AT' ? not the full size from the IBM AT style case) PowerTronic TK-4230DC full size AT power supply Qty 1 Generic 400DPI PC Bus Mouse, excellent condition (Logitec 'half moon' style, but generic brand) Qty 1 Ditto I080Fi internal tape drive Multiple PC AT Keyboards Multiple Pentium motherboards, some with cpu, some without, no manuals Qty 4 3COM 3C597 Fast EtherLink EISA Laptop stuff ------------ Qty 6 new Latitude D600/610/520 (and others?) battery, not the recalled ones, the good ones, need charging as they've been on the shelf for a long time Dell Latitude D520 palm rest, new in box, with trackpad component missing, a used working trackpad is included but not installed Dell Latitude D520 palm rest, new in box (with new trackpad as delivered from Dell) Dell Inspiron C840 UXGA 15" TFT Screen, new in box from Dell Sun Stuff --------- Mini-DIN console cable (Mac modem cable), new in package Qty 2 SLC CPU boards (untested, I don't have an SLC/ELC to test in) Qty 3 ELC CPU boards (untested, I don't have an SLC/ELC to test in) Qty 1 Ultra 5/10 mainboard (working pull) (will sell with or w/o CPU) Qty 1 Ultra 10 riser PCB (370-3982) Qty 1 Ultra 10 floppy drive (370-3159) Qty 3 Sun 411 drive enclosures (old 'dotted' style) Qty 2 Sun 411 drive enclosures (new style, just sun diamond logo, no 'Sun' text) Qty 1 Sun 411 drive enclosure (new style, diamond shaped logo, and 'Sun' text/script) Qty 6 Sun 611 drive enclosures Qty 2 Sun 411 "dotted" style top case covers Qty 2 Sun 411 top case covers (new style with logo and 'Sun' text/script) Qty 1 Sun 1/1+/2 (and 3/80) power supply (300-1038) Qty 6 Sun 411 drive enclosure SCSI cabling/fan/'backplane' assembly Multiple Sun 411 fans Qty 12 Sun 370-1420 floppy drives (out of SS10, should work in others as well (one has no door/bezel) Qty 1 SS20 Hard Drive bracket Qty 1 set of the newer revised SS20 side vents Qty 1 Ultra 450 4 drive SCSI backplane Qty 1 Ultra 450 8 drive SCSI backplane Qty 12 Sun 411 drive enclosure 300-1090 power supplies Qty 3 Sun 411 drive enclosure 300-1105 power supplies Qty 1 Sun 411 drive enclosure 300-1037 power supply Qty 9 Sparcstation 10 power supplies Qty 1 SS5/SS20 power supply Qty 1 SS10 top cover Sun Unltra 10 workstation. Can't recall if this has a hard drive in it still or not. This was a working system when retired. SGI Stuff --------- 3COM 3C597 Fast EhterLink EISA cards (see misc section above) Qty 1 Indogo 2 Power supply PC4074 p/N 6064470 SGI Indy R5000, no RAM, no HD, no HD bracket, has XZ graphics card stack (030-8235 030-8234), has the better Sony power supply SGI Indy power supply, Nidec brand, 943-0813 SGI Indy power supply, Sony brand, 060-0008 Indy top cover Indigo purple top cover Indigo teal top cover Indog2 backplane (030-8104) Qty 4 3COM 3C597 Fast EtherLink EISA (can be used on SGI Indigo 2 (google it)) Apple Stuff ----------- Apple IIGS, nice condition, powers on fine, no setup to do a boot test with iMac KB and mouse, translucent ruby red iMac 450MHz iMac mainboard Dual Floppy Macintosh SE Workgroup Server 95 (may not have the WGS card, I'd have to check, w/o it's a Quadra 950) Macintosh IIsi Macintosh IIcx Qty 2 Macintosh LCIII Qty 3 new in box M7600LL/E Airport Card Qty 2 new in box M8881LL/A Airport Extreme card Apple IIc power supply Mini-DIN Mac Modem cable, new Apple Mac II Power Supply Apple Design keyboard M2980 Ingram Micro zip/etc tape drive bracket/bezel for Mac 7200/7500/others? Digital (DEC) Stuff ------------------- DELNI-BA (see misc section) Qty 2 Vaxstation 3100 M76 Qty 2 Vaxtation 3100 M38 Qty 1 Vaxstation 3100 Qty 1 VAxstation 3100 (larger enclosure (taller) Qty 1 AlphaPC64 Motherboard (21A02-A3), in original box, never used, I bought as new years ago and never used it Qty 2 Digital LN03 maintenance kits Qty 3 Digital LN03 toner kits LN03 font cargridges (LN03X-CY, LN03X-CB, LN03X-CR (qty 2), LN03-SX, LN03X-CW, LN03X-CR) Digital LN03 Programmer Reference Manual Cisco Stuff ----------- Cisco 1720 w T1 CSU/DSU WIC and power supply Cisco 3600 1E2T card w T1 CSU/DSU WIC Cisco 4FE card (74-3188-01) Cisco PIX515 power supply Cisco PIX515 fan assemblies Cisco PIX515 plastics Toner Cartridges ---------------- Qty 2 HP C4191A black (for 4500/4550) Qty 2 HP C4194A Yellow (for 4500/4550) Qty 2 HP C4192A Cyan (for 4500/4550) Qty 1 HP 98A (for 4/4+/4M/4M+/5/5M/5N) Qty 1 HP 98A new in open bag (for identification) (for 4/4+/4M/4M+/5/5M/5N) qty 3 HP 96A (for 2100/2200) Qty 1 HP C4092A (for 1100/3200) Qty 1 Brother TN530 Qty 1 Generic Canon SX refilled cartridge Qty 1 HP 92285A (for Laserjet/LaserJet Plus/LaserJet 500/Apple LaserWriter I) Qty 1 EP in open bag new (Laserjet/Laserjet Plus/LaserJet 500/Apple LaserWriter I) Qty 1 HP 15X (1200/1220/3300/3380) Qty 1 HP 12A (1010/1012/1015/1018/1020/1020plus/1022/3015/3020/3030/3050/3050Z/3052/3055/M1005mfp/M1319mfp) Qty 1 Xerox 6R902 (same as HP 95A) (Canon SX) (used, remaining toner amount unknown) LN03 toner and maintenance kits (see Digital section) Ink Cargridges -------------- Qty 3 HP #70 Photo Black (DesignJet Z2100, Z3100) Qty 2 HP #70 Light Gray Qty 3 HP #70 Light Cyan Qty 3 HP #70 Cyan Qty 2 HP #70 Yellow Qty 1 HP #70 Light Magenta Qty 2 HP #70 Magenta Qty 3 HP #70 Matte Black Qty 1 HP #97 (C9363W) Qty 4 Canon 24 Black (S200, S300, i320, i450, i470D, Multipass F10/F20) Qty 4 Canon 24 Color From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 7 12:46:26 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 13:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait Message-ID: <20160607174626.9028E18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/282059544477 Low starting price. Noel From austinpass at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 12:54:56 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 18:54:56 +0100 Subject: FS: (PURGE) all sorts of classic computer parts, computers, networking, ink/toner, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CAC2496-C6F4-475F-88F6-15028046EEF5@gmail.com> > On 7 Jun 2016, at 18:35, rescue wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I am looking to clean out some of my stuff. I'm 'buried' in it. > > Qty 4 Canon 24 Color > Where are you located? -Austin. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Jun 7 12:55:38 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 10:55:38 -0700 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> I know MemoryX in Santa Clara has at least recently had full boxed copies of SunOS 4.1.4 (aka Solaris 1.1.3) available for something like $99. I'm unaware of whether Sun SPARC hardware carries a license for the OS with which it shipped. Some hardware companies did that, others bound the license to the media, still others bound it to a maintenance contract. -- Chris Sent from my iPad > On Jun 7, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Bryan C. Everly wrote: > > Hi, > > I have really fond memories of this operating system (from before the > SVR4 Solaris days). It was the first UNIX I used (and I'm still a big > BSD fan). > > (Not sure what the protocol is here for asking something like this so > if I run afoul of a copyright policy or something, just tell me to > stop asking and I will.) > > Is there any way someone can get their hands on an install disc for > this? I have some old SPARC hardware that it would be fun to run on > if I could find the installer. > > Thanks, > Bryan From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Jun 7 12:55:38 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 10:55:38 -0700 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> I know MemoryX in Santa Clara has at least recently had full boxed copies of SunOS 4.1.4 (aka Solaris 1.1.3) available for something like $99. I'm unaware of whether Sun SPARC hardware carries a license for the OS with which it shipped. Some hardware companies did that, others bound the license to the media, still others bound it to a maintenance contract. -- Chris Sent from my iPad > On Jun 7, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Bryan C. Everly wrote: > > Hi, > > I have really fond memories of this operating system (from before the > SVR4 Solaris days). It was the first UNIX I used (and I'm still a big > BSD fan). > > (Not sure what the protocol is here for asking something like this so > if I run afoul of a copyright policy or something, just tell me to > stop asking and I will.) > > Is there any way someone can get their hands on an install disc for > this? I have some old SPARC hardware that it would be fun to run on > if I could find the installer. > > Thanks, > Bryan From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 13:02:24 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 14:02:24 -0400 Subject: FS: (PURGE) all sorts of classic computer parts, computers, networking, ink/toner, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: where are you located, generally speaking? From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 13:47:48 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 14:47:48 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait In-Reply-To: <20160607174626.9028E18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160607174626.9028E18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: well there goes my plan of trying to keep it under the radar. On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Here: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/282059544477 > > Low starting price. > > Noel > From earl at baugh.org Tue Jun 7 14:43:37 2016 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:43:37 -0400 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement Message-ID: > my real IBM clicky keyboard does not have usb so I tried various usb > adapters and they could be flaky,... > you would have to start computer then have to unplug and reinsert > keyboard connection etc... > > anyone have a solve for this? thanks Ed# Yes, if you look on ebay, there is at least one person who makes cables that snap into the IBM Model M plug with USB, I believe it has some sort of in-line electronics near the plug. It's worked flawlessly with the various Model M's I've used it with (and bought some more, all work great). I used it on '86, '89, '91 ones. BTW, I can confirm that Unicomp did buy the molds, etc. from IBM/Lexmark. (spoke to the owner during a call a while ago...) The "innerds" they make are form identical to ones that came from IBM. I can confirm this in that here at work I bought the "guts" and some Mac keycaps (guts with the USB cable hard-wired... that's the only difference) And found an old Model F (which was a UK version of a model M, not sure what else was difference) and the guts dropped in. I did cut off the tabs to allow for the additional keys next to the space bar. This works out because the mold had a cross-beam where the tabs connected to the bottom edge, so you can get a smooth even edge without much cutting, etc. That's the only shortcoming I've found from Unicomp, the "enclosures" are light weight, and definitely not the same plastic as IBM (in composition or weight). So a case from a donator model M fixes that problem. (usually run the case thru the dish washer before to get it squeaky clean... yes, my wife lets me do that, as long as I'm not running dishes too... she's a keeper :-) ) Earl p.s. If you do ever order the "guts" (not sure if they still do that or not, make sure you indicate what you want on the keycaps... I didn't mention and got completely BLANK keycaps... works for me since I'm a touch typist, but had me laughing.... and I did have plenty of spare caps, so put normal ones on and have the blanks in the parts bin) From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jun 7 15:48:54 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 13:48:54 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20160607174626.9028E18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 6/7/2016 11:47 AM, devin davison wrote: > well there goes my plan of trying to keep it under the radar. you can go for the belt buckle. Actually, wonder if it is an estate find, or if they scrapped or plan to scrap the rest of the machine. That is always concerning in these cases. I bought the recent 6120 sparetime one from Doc Shipley which was for sale recently, had the same problem but on the STG yahoo group. thanks Jim From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 7 15:58:33 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 21:58:33 +0100 Subject: RXV21 and 11/94 Message-ID: <79360c9d-4d69-4548-5342-4c4b9a85e0f8@btinternet.com> Hi Having decided that the best way to get the 11/94 going was to sort out the RX02 and make sure I could boot from it. So back to the 11/83 make sure it boots of the RD53 - Yup RT11 Try the RX50 - Yup boots xxdp. Now then 11/83 - QBUS so an RXV21 to drive the RX02. But where to put it. Next to the RQDX3? After it? In front? Better ask: Knights of the most excellent order of Digital Techno Mages. Where does put ones RXV21 Next to the RQDX3? After it? In front? Rod Smallwood From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Jun 7 16:25:47 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 23:25:47 +0200 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> References: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <1465334747.14632.48.camel@agj.net> tis 2016-06-07 klockan 10:55 -0700 skrev Chris Hanson: > I know MemoryX in Santa Clara has at least recently had full boxed copies of SunOS 4.1.4 (aka Solaris 1.1.3) available for something like $99. > > I'm unaware of whether Sun SPARC hardware carries a license for the OS with which it shipped. Some hardware companies did that, others bound the license to the media, still others bound it to a maintenance contract. > > -- Chris SunOS : no trouble - historically "a machine" == "a license" No patches available now. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Jun 7 16:51:29 2016 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 21:51:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? In-Reply-To: References: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1539554076.88444.1465336289088.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> >>the 50xxxxx number with the letter behind it could be a dec board number. > > >The 50 class could be the artwork, and the letter the board rev. If that is the case, there is probably a 54- class on the other side of the board one number higher. The 54 number is the board with components, and can be tracked down, but not easily. > Thanks for this hint, Paul. I rechecked for numbers, but couldn't any 54-numbers on the boards. >>They could have been renamed by another company. > It looks very much to me like original DEC equipment. >>Any other print in the etch? > Interestingly, the prints in the etches are those I stated and all have an X prior to the actual number. >>Any pictures? > Yes, I uploaded some at http://www.digitalheritage.de/other/dec_mystery_boards/ I still have not clue what these boards are for. Any help is highly appreciated! Thanks, Pierre >> > >On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:51 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > >Hello list, >> >>I recently got a bunch of boards from somebody who was either not able to tell me where they were from. >>The boards seem to be unibus-based with numbers starting with X. I neither came across these before, nor could find any information in the web about it: >> >>Type, P/N , Description >>X029, 5013132B, AUC interconnect >>X022, 5012197C, unibuswindow >>X021, 5012181C, CD ROM control (did that ever exist for unibus?) >> >>X020, 5012180B, data path >> >> >> >>Two 16K mos memory modules M7847 came with the set. >> >> >>No backplane, unfortunately. >>Any hints about the type of system and application these boards were for? >>Many thanks for any pointers. >> >>Wish a nice weekend to all of you, >>Pierre >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de >> > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 7 17:20:40 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 18:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? Message-ID: <20160607222040.9F01918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pierre Gebhardt > I uploaded some Well, I don't know what they are, but a couple of things about that first board (the one that has the 3 blue Berg headers on it): It has jumpers for UNIBUS grants (both interrupt, and DMA). Which doesn't necessarily mean much, the various MK11/etc memory cards (M7984, M8728, M8750) have them too, and they _definitely_ don't plug into a UNIBUS. But this card has nothing connected to the CDEF connector pins, but it does to the AB, suggesting that whatever it is, it might go in a MUD slot? Someplace I have the pinout for the M9014/etc UNIBUS extenders (cards that plug into a UNIBUS in/out slot, and convert it to 3 40-pin flat cables), but I can't find it at the moment (I remember discussing it here, so maybe it's in the list archives). It would be interesting to see if this card has the same pinout. Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 7 17:54:34 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 17:54:34 -0500 Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20160607174626.9028E18C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000001d1c10f$8faf0fe0$af0d2fa0$@classiccmp.org> Devin wrote... >well there goes my plan of trying to keep it under the radar. There's no such thing anymore of seeing a classiccmp-related item on ebay "under the radar". Everyone looks. Think of that radar lower limit like the head/media gap... around 25 microns ;) J From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 7 17:56:21 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 16:56:21 -0600 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> Message-ID: <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/6/2016 10:04 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > There's a big announcement happening from the Vintage Computer > Federation tomorrow night. :) > > Stay tuned... > > How get 63 more bytes when running BASIC? Ducks! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jun 7 18:09:00 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 00:09:00 +0100 Subject: RXV21 and 11/94 In-Reply-To: <79360c9d-4d69-4548-5342-4c4b9a85e0f8@btinternet.com> References: <79360c9d-4d69-4548-5342-4c4b9a85e0f8@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 07/06/2016 21:58, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Now then 11/83 - QBUS so an RXV21 to drive the RX02. > But where to put it. Next to the RQDX3? After it? In front? It won't make much difference. Personally, I put it in front, but that's largely force of habit, born out of the need to place any RQDX1 as the last item on the bus because of the way it (doesn't) pass grants. In general, the recommended order on microPDP-11s is: memory Ethernet and/or synchronous comms, eg DEQNA, DPV11, DRV11 printers, eg LPV11 other serial comms, eg DLV11, DZV11, DHV11 tapes, eg TK50, TK70 disks, eg RLV11 MSCP -- Pete From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Jun 7 19:07:08 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 20:07:08 -0400 Subject: Fully working Woz-signed straight Apple 2 + Lee F.-signed Sol-20 for auction Message-ID: <575761AC.500@snarc.net> Vintage Computer Federation is doing some fundraising. We're auctioning a fully working and Woz-autographed straight Apple II * and * a fully working and Felsenstein-autographed Processor Tech Sol-20. Both computers are SUPER-CLEAN. Apple II: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890608380 Sol-20: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890605553 We're using eBay to maximize the value since we're a non-profit. Have fun! From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 19:21:51 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:21:51 +1200 Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? In-Reply-To: References: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Are the X-numbers stamped on the metal handles? Damn... that rings a bell... I'm sure I've seen boards from a big DEC system with four-digit X numbers on the handles but I can't remember which! A big VAX or something... or was it an 11/70 memory system or something? Or a KL or KS 10... are they standard hex Unibus size? Mike On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > the 50xxxxx number with the letter behind it could be a dec board number. > > The 50 class could be the artwork, and the letter the board rev. If that > is the case, there is probably a 54- class on the other side of the board > one number higher. The 54 number is the board with components, and can be > tracked down, but not easily. > > They could have been renamed by another company. > > Any other print in the etch? > > Any pictures? > > > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:51 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > >> Hello list, >> >> I recently got a bunch of boards from somebody who was either not able to >> tell me where they were from. >> The boards seem to be unibus-based with numbers starting with X. I neither >> came across these before, nor could find any information in the web about >> it: >> >> Type, P/N , Description >> X029, 5013132B, AUC interconnect >> X022, 5012197C, unibuswindow >> X021, 5012181C, CD ROM control (did that ever exist for unibus?) >> >> X020, 5012180B, data path >> >> >> >> Two 16K mos memory modules M7847 came with the set. >> >> >> No backplane, unfortunately. >> Any hints about the type of system and application these boards were for? >> Many thanks for any pointers. >> >> Wish a nice weekend to all of you, >> Pierre >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: >> http://www.digitalheritage.de >> -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 7 19:42:49 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 01:42:49 +0100 Subject: RXV21 and 11/94 In-Reply-To: References: <79360c9d-4d69-4548-5342-4c4b9a85e0f8@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 08/06/2016 00:09, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/06/2016 21:58, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Now then 11/83 - QBUS so an RXV21 to drive the RX02. >> But where to put it. Next to the RQDX3? After it? In front? > > It won't make much difference. Personally, I put it in front, but > that's largely force of habit, born out of the need to place any RQDX1 > as the last item on the bus because of the way it (doesn't) pass grants. > > In general, the recommended order on microPDP-11s is: > memory > Ethernet and/or synchronous comms, eg DEQNA, DPV11, DRV11 > printers, eg LPV11 > other serial comms, eg DLV11, DZV11, DHV11 > tapes, eg TK50, TK70 > disks, eg RLV11 > MSCP > Hi Pete I put the memory then the cpu then the RXV21 and finally the RQDX3. System boots from the RX50 and the RD53 just fine. Now I need to run diagnostics on the RXV21 and then the RX02. As usual the manual tells you everything you dont need to know, I thought L RXDIAG then CR and S but no the prog. was not on yhe disk. Suggestions on testing RXV21 please Rod \ From jsw at ieee.org Tue Jun 7 20:45:54 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 20:45:54 -0500 Subject: RXV21 and 11/94 In-Reply-To: References: <79360c9d-4d69-4548-5342-4c4b9a85e0f8@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Jun 7, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > >> > Hi Pete > I put the memory then the cpu then the RXV21 and finally the RQDX3. > System boots from the RX50 and the RD53 just fine. > > Now I need to run diagnostics on the RXV21 and then the RX02. > As usual the manual tells you everything you dont need to know, > I thought L RXDIAG then CR and S but no the prog. was not on yhe disk. > > Suggestions on testing RXV21 please > > Rod > > Check out the PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf and XXDP25 on the web. You??ll need to create a bootable RX50 (or emulated TU58) image. There are several RX02 diagnostics programs and ZRXF (NRXFAO) excercises RXV21. Others test the Drives. Jerry From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 22:01:32 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 20:01:32 -0700 Subject: Anyone with a Data General Eclipse S/230 out there? Message-ID: I just acquired a DG Eclipse S/230 in semi-decent condition. It's mostly complete with some fun peripherals in a gigantic rack. It'll be fun to get it going, but it's going to be a challenge -- the machine has been scavenged from here and there, I'm missing basic TTY I/O and controllers for the 8" floppy drive (and probably other things, too). Going over the boards, there's an IC on the "CPU 1" board that was somehow forcibly ripped from the PCB -- it looks like someone started clipping it off, then said "screw it" and yanked the thing off with pliers, leaving much of the leads leading up to the IC die. The PCB is undamaged, but I don't know what the IC is supposed to be. I suspect, based on what's surrounding it, that it's an SN74172J. The IC is located at position X3 (approximately, it covers more real estate than that). Anyone have a CPU 1 board from an S/230 they can check for me? There isn't much in the way of schematics for this that I can find... Thanks! Josh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jun 7 22:21:02 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 23:21:02 -0400 Subject: 11/[9]4 latest In-Reply-To: <2c0cb9bd-a478-0e26-ab91-6b53c9f072a4@btinternet.com> References: <20160605123324.18AA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <95db926c-0e43-4866-b8b6-e6454b078899@jwsss.com> <5754E51A.7040808@compsys.to> <83900074-955d-7e09-c744-06ad3875be52@btinternet.com> <57554402.4060404@compsys.to> <5756AC0C.7090809@compsys.to> <2c0cb9bd-a478-0e26-ab91-6b53c9f072a4@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57578F1E.8030009@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > [Snip] > My 11/83 is back together and booting RT on the RD53 via the RQDX3 > as normal. Just a suggestion. Everyone that has mentioned the RD53 has mentioned that eventually (unfortunately sooner rather than later) the heads end up sticking. There has been an extensive description of what to do, but it does usually require a clean room to perform - although many have managed without that by doing it inside a plastic bag. So do NOT depend on any files on the RD53 since they can disappear without warning. Jerome Fine From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue Jun 7 23:23:06 2016 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 22:23:06 -0600 Subject: Anyone with a Data General Eclipse S/230 out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll contact you off-list... Bruce On 6/7/2016 9:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I just acquired a DG Eclipse S/230 in semi-decent condition. It's mostly > complete with some fun peripherals in a gigantic rack. It'll be fun to get > it going, but it's going to be a challenge -- the machine has been > scavenged from here and there, I'm missing basic TTY I/O and controllers > for the 8" floppy drive (and probably other things, too). > > Going over the boards, there's an IC on the "CPU 1" board that was somehow > forcibly ripped from the PCB -- it looks like someone started clipping it > off, then said "screw it" and yanked the thing off with pliers, leaving > much of the leads leading up to the IC die. The PCB is undamaged, but I > don't know what the IC is supposed to be. I suspect, based on what's > surrounding it, that it's an SN74172J. > > The IC is located at position X3 (approximately, it covers more real estate > than that). Anyone have a CPU 1 board from an S/230 they can check for > me? There isn't much in the way of schematics for this that I can find... > > Thanks! > Josh > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 15:58:38 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:58:38 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: References: <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey, thanks for the catalog link. It confirms that the 'W' designation indicates factory-wired units, in the case of both the trainer and the accessory unit. But note the difference in assembly costs between the ETW-3400 and the EWA-3400 accessory, I'm surprised that the latter would take any more time to build than the former, but I'm sure they had their reasons. And it appears that the $47.00 chip option is for the extra 3K of SRAM that the accy. board can hold (for the max total of 4K). Both the tiny BASIC and monitor ROMs are standard equipment, and included in the regular price - or at least they were in 1979. On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 7:06 AM, william degnan wrote: > CORRECTION > > I am wrong. The W means assembled in the factory apparently. > > http://heathkit.garlanger.com/catalogs/1979/Heathkit_Catalog_845.pdf > > For another $47 you could by the chipset for either the W or T versions. > > Sorry about that. > > b > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 22:47:15 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 22:47:15 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 vs. ETW-3400 confusion? In-Reply-To: References: <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293484573.135880.1465269594070.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've been reviewing the 'conversion' document, found here: https://nerp.net/~legendre/heathkit/3400/ET-3400_ET-3400A/Heathkit%20ET%203400_modification_manual.pdf Which describes how to modify the ET-3400/A to mate with the ETA-3400 accy unit. For some reason, a number of details - pictorials, it seems - are missing from the document. All of the missing details seem to involve modification and connection of an 'RF shield' component, which might refer to a copper tape strip which is part of the ET-3400 package. Apparently, the they intend for a wide copper strip to interconnect the ground planes of the two chassis..? My sense is that the info was left out as it's unnecessary to achieve correct operation.. more of a "the FCC made us do this" sort of thing. Can anyone comment on the omission, and any importance it might have? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (My complete Heathkit 3400 series document set is here: http://nerp.net/~legendre/heathkit/3400/ It includes all of the scanned 3400 materials I have collected, and I believe it is complete, less the BASIC programming course materials. All other documents, including the self-taught courses should be present. Please advise if anything is missing, or if you can supply the BASIC course documents. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:58 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hey, thanks for the catalog link. It confirms that the 'W' designation > indicates factory-wired units, in the case of both the trainer and the > accessory unit. But note the difference in assembly costs between the > ETW-3400 and the EWA-3400 accessory, I'm surprised that the latter would > take any more time to build than the former, but I'm sure they had their > reasons. > > And it appears that the $47.00 chip option is for the extra 3K of SRAM > that the accy. board can hold (for the max total of 4K). Both the tiny > BASIC and monitor ROMs are standard equipment, and included in the regular > price - or at least they were in 1979. > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 7:06 AM, william degnan > wrote: > >> CORRECTION >> >> I am wrong. The W means assembled in the factory apparently. >> >> http://heathkit.garlanger.com/catalogs/1979/Heathkit_Catalog_845.pdf >> >> For another $47 you could by the chipset for either the W or T versions. >> >> Sorry about that. >> >> b >> > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 00:06:33 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 07:06:33 +0200 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On 7 June 2016 at 02:19, r.stricklin wrote: > On Jun 6, 2016, at 5:17 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > >> On Jun 6, 2016, at 8:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> But AFAIK IBM never shipped machines with DS/DD/80t track drives as >>> standard, did it? >> >> Of course they did. PS/2 8530. > > Oops. And the 5140 "Convertible". Interesting. I did not know that! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From martin at shackspace.de Wed Jun 8 05:01:42 2016 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:01:42 +0200 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160603095838.GA19356@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20160528204229.GA25286@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <20160531013914.GA424@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <20160603095838.GA19356@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <20160608100142.GA23966@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hi all! Martin Peters: (...) > We measure the additional diagnostic information on the onboard parallel > port and it turned out, it was a FDC interrupt failure. After replacing > the 1793 on the motherboard, the "** system error ** - 0004" message > was gone. \o/ > > Now, there is a "** keyboard error ** - 0010", sometimes "0011" and the Ok, it's working again :-) Great graphical abilities for a PC "clone" in 1983. This could have been a MDA/CGA/Herc-killer if TI would have decided to sell the videocard for IBM PCs and compatibles :) Thanks for all your help. Greeting, Martin -- Martin Peters martin at shackspace.de From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 8 06:39:49 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:39:49 +0100 Subject: Restoring an RXV21 and/or an RX02 Message-ID: <253003d3-807b-fa26-d8dd-3243a937fa5e@btinternet.com> In my quest for a working RX02 I'm trying to find out the best way of checking out an RXV21 and get it talking to the RX02. I have most of the standard diagnostics including XXDP. The setup is an 11/83 with an RX50 and RD53. (I can boot from either) In the box is MSV11-J PMI KDF11-B RXV21 RQDX3 They are in the order as above. The two dual height modules are in the right hand side of the back plane when viewed from the front. I am unsure as if there is a utility for RXV21 among all the diags I have or should I go in with ODT on a halted system and look at registers. With the setup above I need to get the RXV21 going in order to check out the RX02. The precise syntax of any commands is important because presuming I may have prior knowledge is not a good idea. I may have known this stuff in the past but I cant remember if I did or not!! Rod From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jun 8 07:01:40 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 08:01:40 -0400 Subject: Restoring an RXV21 and/or an RX02 In-Reply-To: <253003d3-807b-fa26-d8dd-3243a937fa5e@btinternet.com> References: <253003d3-807b-fa26-d8dd-3243a937fa5e@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57580924.90903@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > In my quest for a working RX02 I'm trying to find out the best way of > checking out an RXV21 and get it talking to the RX02. I have most of > the standard diagnostics including XXDP. > > The setup is an 11/83 with an RX50 and RD53. (I can boot from either) > > In the box is > > MSV11-J PMI > > KDF11-B > > RXV21 > > RQDX3 > > They are in the order as above. The two dual height modules are in the > right hand side of the back plane when viewed from the front. > > I am unsure as if there is a utility for RXV21 among all the diags I > have or should I go in with ODT on a halted system and look at > registers. > > With the setup above I need to get the RXV21 going in order to check > out the RX02. You did not specify the backplane. I am going to assume a BA23 box. Since both the RXV21 and the RQDX3 are dual modules, and the first three slots are ABCD, you do not need (and should not have) a bus grant (M9047) beside the RXV21. So while the RXV21 is in the AB portion of an ABCD slot, the RQDX3 is in an ABAB or Q22 slot. That is what is supposed to be the situation. If you add a TK50, then that controller will be placed into the 4th slot beside the RQDX3. As long as the RQDX3 is immediately below the RXV21 and the RQDX3 is working, then you should be able to check the IOPAGE registers on the RXV21 while you are running RT-11. Either use ODT or SD.SYS if you are running V05.05 of RT-11 or later. Other than that, I can't help much with the RX02 drive. The only thing that I can think of is that the cable between the RXV21 and the RX02 is installed incorrectly. I seem the remember doing that once or twice. Other hardware individuals can help much better that I can. Jerome Fine From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 8 08:08:19 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 06:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: <1465334747.14632.48.camel@agj.net> References: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> <1465334747.14632.48.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jun 2016, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > tis 2016-06-07 klockan 10:55 -0700 skrev Chris Hanson: >> I know MemoryX in Santa Clara has at least recently had full boxed copies of SunOS 4.1.4 (aka Solaris 1.1.3) available for something like $99. >> >> I'm unaware of whether Sun SPARC hardware carries a license for the OS with which it shipped. Some hardware companies did that, others bound the license to the media, still others bound it to a maintenance contract. >> >> -- Chris > > SunOS : no trouble - historically "a machine" == "a license" > > No patches available now. Check archive.org - ftp.sun.com may have been grabbed. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 8 08:50:35 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 06:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: >>>> But AFAIK IBM never shipped machines with DS/DD/80t track drives as >>>> standard, did it? >>> Of course they did. PS/2 8530. >> Oops. And the 5140 "Convertible". > Interesting. I did not know that! Those were machines with 3.5" 720K as the only internal drives. Possibility of other kinds of drives externally. But, 3.5" 720K drives became available at that time (PC-DOS 3.20) as external drives and/or as internal for 5150/5160/5170. Soon thereafter (PC-DOS 3.30), 1.4M drives became available on machines with a 500K bits per second data transfer rate (coincidentally all IBM machines with 80286 and above processors). For machines that could take the 1.4M drives, few chose to get the more limited, but almost the same price, 720K drives. Therefore, the reign of 720K was non-IBM laptops (mostly since MS-DOS 2.11) before 1.4M, throughout the market during IBM PC-DOS 3.20, and then only the remaining 8088/8086 machines from 3.30 on. Easy enough to have missed their short-term domination of the market if you happened to have been on holiday. I was waiting at the door of the Oakland IBM store on the day that PC-DOS 3.20 was released. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 8 09:33:52 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:33:52 +0100 Subject: Restoring an RXV21 and/or an RX02 In-Reply-To: <57580924.90903@compsys.to> References: <253003d3-807b-fa26-d8dd-3243a937fa5e@btinternet.com> <57580924.90903@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 08/06/2016 13:01, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> In my quest for a working RX02 I'm trying to find out the best way >> of checking out an RXV21 and get it talking to the RX02. I have most >> of the standard diagnostics including XXDP. >> >> The setup is an 11/83 with an RX50 and RD53. (I can boot from either) >> >> In the box is >> >> MSV11-J PMI >> >> KDF11-B >> >> RXV21 >> >> RQDX3 >> >> They are in the order as above. The two dual height modules are in >> the right hand side of the back plane when viewed from the front. >> >> I am unsure as if there is a utility for RXV21 among all the diags I >> have or should I go in with ODT on a halted system and look at >> registers. >> >> With the setup above I need to get the RXV21 going in order to check >> out the RX02. > > You did not specify the backplane. I am going to assume > a BA23 box. Since both the RXV21 and the RQDX3 > are dual modules, and the first three slots are ABCD, > you do not need (and should not have) a bus grant > (M9047) beside the RXV21. So while the RXV21 > is in the AB portion of an ABCD slot, the RQDX3 is > in an ABAB or Q22 slot. That is what is supposed to > be the situation. If you add a TK50, then that controller > will be placed into the 4th slot beside the RQDX3. > > As long as the RQDX3 is immediately below the RXV21 > and the RQDX3 is working, then you should be able to > check the IOPAGE registers on the RXV21 while you > are running RT-11. Either use ODT or SD.SYS if you > are running V05.05 of RT-11 or later. > > Other than that, I can't help much with the RX02 drive. > The only thing that I can think of is that the cable between > the RXV21 and the RX02 is installed incorrectly. I seem > the remember doing that once or twice. > > Other hardware individuals can help much better that I can. > > Jerome Fine Thanks for the reply. Its good to know I have at least got the boards in the right order. Well we have moved on again after a complete check of cables and connectors. The DY (RX02) driver seems to have loaded and now the RX02 has started to respond. If you do say DIR DY0 then drive 0 clonks even if there is a disk in the drive. Same applies for drive 1. So drive select works . Its probably looking for data from the head or sector pulses. So me it seems to be down to the drive itself. It fails with controller error 20 so I best go find what that means Rod From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 8 09:42:39 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 09:42:39 -0500 Subject: Anyone with a Data General Eclipse S/230 out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d1c194$01ec02a0$05c407e0$@classiccmp.org> Josh wrote... ---- I just acquired a DG Eclipse S/230 in semi-decent condition. It's mostly complete with some fun peripherals in a gigantic rack. ---- Josh - I've just been down that road recently. I have an S/130 that is pretty close to finished on the restoration front and I may have nuggets of helpful info for you (but Bruce here is the expert). Along those lines; now that I'm close to finishing off my S/130 rack, there are two racks of DG Eclipse gear left over that I do not want to keep. One rack has a S/200 cpu (front panel scavenged), the 1/2 vacuum column mag tape drive (6021/6023), and an FPS fp array processor. The other rack is a complete S/120 system including 3rd party paper tape and DG combo disk & 8" floppy. I would be happy if someone would just show up at the back door with a trailer and haul them both off, but I'd prefer to get something for them... trade or cash. J From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 8 10:17:43 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 08:17:43 -0700 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> > On Jun 7, 2016, at 15:56, ben wrote: > > On 6/6/2016 10:04 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> There's a big announcement happening from the Vintage Computer >> Federation tomorrow night. :) >> >> Stay tuned... >> >> > > How get 63 more bytes when running BASIC? > Ducks! I'm hoping for VCF Southern California. It's probably not VCF Southern California. Is it VCF Southern California? :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 8 10:25:16 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 08:25:16 -0700 Subject: Anyone with a Data General Eclipse S/230 out there? In-Reply-To: <001101d1c194$01ec02a0$05c407e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001101d1c194$01ec02a0$05c407e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <59bbb702-5f5b-e848-e76b-08a6bf1c0fab@bitsavers.org> On 6/8/16 7:42 AM, Jay West wrote: > an FPS fp array processor. > I have the drawing set for this. It is a custom unit for GE CAT scanner image convolution. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jun 8 10:39:07 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 11:39:07 -0400 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> >>> There's a big announcement happening from the Vintage Computer >>> Federation tomorrow night. :) >>> >>> Stay tuned... >>> >>> >> >> How get 63 more bytes when running BASIC? >> Ducks! > > I'm hoping for VCF Southern California. It's probably not VCF Southern California. Is it VCF Southern California? :) Read list your emails. :) It was not VCF Southern California. But northern California is nice too. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 8 10:58:42 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 08:58:42 -0700 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> Message-ID: <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> > On Jun 8, 2016, at 08:39, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> I'm hoping for VCF Southern California. It's probably not VCF Southern California. Is it VCF Southern California? :) > > Read list your emails. :) It was not VCF Southern California. > > But northern California is nice too. I seem to have missed the announcement in the noise, unless you were referring to the Woz-signed Apple auction. Northern CA is nice, but it's farther than I wish to drive. ;) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 8 10:59:57 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 10:59:57 -0500 Subject: Anyone with a Data General Eclipse S/230 out there? In-Reply-To: <59bbb702-5f5b-e848-e76b-08a6bf1c0fab@bitsavers.org> References: <001101d1c194$01ec02a0$05c407e0$@classiccmp.org> <59bbb702-5f5b-e848-e76b-08a6bf1c0fab@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000401d1c19e$cde697d0$69b3c770$@classiccmp.org> On 6/8/16 7:42 AM, Jay West wrote: > an FPS fp array processor. > To which AEK replied.... ----- I have the drawing set for this. It is a custom unit for GE CAT scanner image convolution. ---- Ah ok. I just had noticed on the back of the device Floating Point Systems, and a model number - FPS-100 I think. The board for it that is in the cpu chassis is labled "Floating Point Option". This box surprised me as being the densest amount of circuitry I have ever seen. It's stuffed top to bottom with boards that all touch eachother. I don't think you could find any space to put another chip anywhere inside it. This certainly explains the huge and large number of cooling fans on the back of the chassis :> J From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 11:11:54 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 11:11:54 -0500 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Jun 8, 2016, at 08:39, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > Read list your emails. :) It was not VCF Southern California. > > > > But northern California is nice too. > > I seem to have missed the announcement in the noise, unless you were > referring to the Woz-signed Apple auction. Northern CA is nice, but it's > farther than I wish to drive. ;) > > > I didn't see it either. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jun 8 11:34:04 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:34:04 -0400 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <575848FC.1070107@snarc.net> >>> I'm hoping for VCF Southern California. It's probably not VCF Southern California. Is it VCF Southern California? :) >> >> Read list your emails. :) It was not VCF Southern California. >> >> But northern California is nice too. > > I seem to have missed the announcement in the noise, unless you were referring to the Woz-signed Apple auction. Yes. And also a Felsenstein-autographed Sol-20. Give us a break, this is fundraising for a non-profit. > Northern CA is nice, but it's farther than I wish to drive. ;) Don't know what to tell you. People attend VCF East/West (and the indy shows, too) from many times zones and even other countries/continents. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 8 12:37:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 10:37:56 -0700 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <575857F4.5060500@sydex.com> On 06/08/2016 06:50 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Those were machines with 3.5" 720K as the only internal drives. > Possibility of other kinds of drives externally. But, 3.5" 720K > drives became available at that time (PC-DOS 3.20) as external drives > and/or as internal for 5150/5160/5170. The first (intimate) contact I had with 3.5 diskette drives was a contract to do the BIOS for a Z80 luggable made by an outfit called Preis. I still have the BIOS, but not the machine. The big advantage was that one could fit two floppies and a hard drive in the same box with the system boards and display. IIRC, the floppies were the half-height Sony OA32's; single-sided 66 track, 600 RPM. (I'd have to refer to my notes to be certain). It was pretty nifty, but not overwhelmingly so. I'm not even sure that the product ever made it to market. --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jun 8 13:00:54 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 13:00:54 -0500 Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? In-Reply-To: <1539554076.88444.1465336289088.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1539554076.88444.1465336289088.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021201d1c1af$b3b2eba0$1b18c2e0$@com> I asked my DEC dealer friends, and they said the PN will be on the metal handles. If you can provide those, then he can tell u what they went to. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of P Gebhardt Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2016 4:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? >>the 50xxxxx number with the letter behind it could be a dec board number. > > >The 50 class could be the artwork, and the letter the board rev. If that is the case, there is probably a 54- class on the other side of the board one number higher. The 54 number is the board with components, and can be tracked down, but not easily. > Thanks for this hint, Paul. I rechecked for numbers, but couldn't any 54-numbers on the boards. >>They could have been renamed by another company. > It looks very much to me like original DEC equipment. >>Any other print in the etch? > Interestingly, the prints in the etches are those I stated and all have an X prior to the actual number. >>Any pictures? > Yes, I uploaded some at http://www.digitalheritage.de/other/dec_mystery_boards/ I still have not clue what these boards are for. Any help is highly appreciated! Thanks, Pierre >> > >On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:51 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > >Hello list, >> >>I recently got a bunch of boards from somebody who was either not able to tell me where they were from. >>The boards seem to be unibus-based with numbers starting with X. I neither came across these before, nor could find any information in the web about it: >> >>Type, P/N , Description >>X029, 5013132B, AUC interconnect >>X022, 5012197C, unibuswindow >>X021, 5012181C, CD ROM control (did that ever exist for unibus?) >> >>X020, 5012180B, data path >> >> >> >>Two 16K mos memory modules M7847 came with the set. >> >> >>No backplane, unfortunately. >>Any hints about the type of system and application these boards were for? >>Many thanks for any pointers. >> >>Wish a nice weekend to all of you, >>Pierre >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de >> > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 8 14:24:59 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <575857F4.5060500@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jun 8, 16 10:37:56 am" Message-ID: <201606081924.u58JOxeN64356630@floodgap.com> > > Those were machines with 3.5" 720K as the only internal drives. > > Possibility of other kinds of drives externally. But, 3.5" 720K > > drives became available at that time (PC-DOS 3.20) as external drives > > and/or as internal for 5150/5160/5170. > > The first (intimate) contact I had with 3.5 diskette drives Hey, I'm EATING HERE. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -- Aldous Huxley ---------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 8 14:37:25 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> from "Mark J. Blair" at "Jun 8, 16 08:58:42 am" Message-ID: <201606081937.u58JbPil64356678@floodgap.com> > I seem to have missed the announcement in the noise, unless you were > referring to the Woz-signed Apple auction. Northern CA is nice, but it's > farther than I wish to drive. ;) I'll be up there. I think I'm in the same region as you. My wife is coming also. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Perl scripting: the ultimate open source software. ------------------------- From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Wed Jun 8 12:46:08 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 20:46:08 +0300 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> <1465334747.14632.48.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4 iso image is available at https://winworldpc.com/download/3E59C28A-18DA-11E4-99E5-7054D21A8599 On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 4:08 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 7 Jun 2016, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > > tis 2016-06-07 klockan 10:55 -0700 skrev Chris Hanson: >> >>> I know MemoryX in Santa Clara has at least recently had full boxed >>> copies of SunOS 4.1.4 (aka Solaris 1.1.3) available for something like $99. >>> >>> I'm unaware of whether Sun SPARC hardware carries a license for the OS >>> with which it shipped. Some hardware companies did that, others bound the >>> license to the media, still others bound it to a maintenance contract. >>> >>> -- Chris >>> >> >> SunOS : no trouble - historically "a machine" == "a license" >> >> No patches available now. >> > > Check archive.org - ftp.sun.com may have been grabbed. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 13:24:41 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 14:24:41 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS Message-ID: Posted an inventory of my M9312 ROMs http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=638 b -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 8 13:26:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 11:26:52 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> decnet ethernet boot still MIA :-( On 6/8/16 11:24 AM, william degnan wrote: > Posted an inventory of my M9312 ROMs > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=638 > > b > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 8 13:34:55 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 13:34:55 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 J From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 14:43:03 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 13:43:03 -0600 (MDT) Subject: PS/2 luggables I noticed for sale in Denver Message-ID: I saw some retro gear on CL today. 20Mhz 386 PS/2 lookin' thing http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5589047344.html which is this: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/30497/IBM-Model-8573-121/ And this one: http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5589142407.html which is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Convertible I'm not an IBM nut (sorry, I worked there too long). However, they are cool machines. Someone might be interested. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 14:57:55 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 13:57:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> <1465334747.14632.48.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jun 2016, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > SunOS 4.1.4 sun4 iso image is available at > https://winworldpc.com/download/3E59C28A-18DA-11E4-99E5-7054D21A8599 Methinks it's bogus. It's only 40.23MB in size on that site. I have the ISO on my file server at home and that's not even close: $ du -h * 315M sunos414_sparc_1994.iso -Swift From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 15:04:23 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 13:04:23 -0700 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> <1465334747.14632.48.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 8 Jun 2016, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > > SunOS 4.1.4 sun4 iso image is available at > > https://winworldpc.com/download/3E59C28A-18DA-11E4-99E5-7054D21A8599 > > Methinks it's bogus. It's only 40.23MB in size on that site. I have the > ISO on my file server at home and that's not even close: > > $ du -h * > 315M sunos414_sparc_1994.iso > The file is compressed, and since everything on the CD is basically uncompressed tar archives, it compresses quite well. It uncompresses to an ISO of 329,297,920 bytes and the ISO contains what looks like a valid installation. - Josh > > -Swift > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 15:06:47 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 13:06:47 -0700 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> <1465334747.14632.48.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Swift Griggs > wrote: > >> On Wed, 8 Jun 2016, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: >> > SunOS 4.1.4 sun4 iso image is available at >> > https://winworldpc.com/download/3E59C28A-18DA-11E4-99E5-7054D21A8599 >> >> Methinks it's bogus. It's only 40.23MB in size on that site. I have the >> ISO on my file server at home and that's not even close: >> >> $ du -h * >> 315M sunos414_sparc_1994.iso >> > > The file is compressed, and since everything on the CD is basically > uncompressed tar archives, it compresses quite well. > Addendum: "everything on the CD is basically uncompressed tar archives *and empty space*" - Josh > > It uncompresses to an ISO of 329,297,920 bytes and the ISO contains what > looks like a valid installation. > > - Josh > > > >> >> -Swift >> >> >> > From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 15:11:36 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:11:36 -0500 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <326C8D37-97BD-495F-A2DA-031CBD6A007C@eschatologist.net> <1465334747.14632.48.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Swift Griggs > > wrote: > > > >> On Wed, 8 Jun 2016, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > >> > SunOS 4.1.4 sun4 iso image is available at > >> > https://winworldpc.com/download/3E59C28A-18DA-11E4-99E5-7054D21A8599 > >> > >> Methinks it's bogus. It's only 40.23MB in size on that site. I have the > >> ISO on my file server at home and that's not even close: > >> > >> $ du -h * > >> 315M sunos414_sparc_1994.iso > >> > > > > The file is compressed, and since everything on the CD is basically > > uncompressed tar archives, it compresses quite well. > > > > Addendum: "everything on the CD is basically uncompressed tar archives > *and empty space*" > > - Josh > > > > > > It uncompresses to an ISO of 329,297,920 bytes and the ISO contains what > > looks like a valid installation. > > > > - Josh > > Now if anyone can dig up the patches I'll be happy. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 15:19:24 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 21:19:24 +0100 Subject: IO Selectric Message-ID: <012d01d1c1c3$0dafe5f0$290fb1d0$@gmail.com> Folks I have today collect a recent E-Bay purchase. It appears to be an IO Selectric that has been left in a garage for a long period of time and is very gummed up. It will turn over with the manual handle, and it appears to try and type, but the carriage does not advance. All the tapes and chords appear to be in place. I have put some pictures here:- https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=277A0739F125010E!119461 &authkey=!AGfgRGXKAjqDm7E&ithint=folder%2cJPG sorry for the long link. Does anyone have any suggestions as to which manuals are appropriate, and which documentation was followed to allow it to be used as a printer? Dave Wade G4UGM From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 15:36:29 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:36:29 -0500 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > 2.88M 3.5" floppies were a huge mistake (there were also 2.88M 5.25" > ones as well). The media was expensive (I think I paid nearly $50 for > box of 10 DSED floppies and the drives needed FDC support. That being > said, most P2 and later boxes did have 2.88M FDC support. Drives were > uncommon (e.g. Teac FD235J). I think that I've seen all of about five > floppies in for conversion over the last 20 years in 2.88M format. > > given the poor track record of 3.5" DSHD media I've had in my collection, I can only imagine how unreliable ED media is/was. From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 15:44:08 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:44:08 -0500 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you're in the neighborhood of a DX2-66 IIRC, 486DX 50s with VLB were fairly desirable vs a 486DX2-66 if you got the right mix of VLB cards to use, since you could run the VLB cards faster. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Jun 8 15:51:40 2016 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 20:51:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? In-Reply-To: <021201d1c1af$b3b2eba0$1b18c2e0$@com> References: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1539554076.88444.1465336289088.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <021201d1c1af$b3b2eba0$1b18c2e0$@com> Message-ID: <1099278628.1217850.1465419100192.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> > I asked my DEC dealer friends, and they said the PN will be on the metal > handles. If you can provide those, then he can tell u what they went to. > > Cindy > Hi Cindy, thanks for your reply. I will look them up tomorrow as soon as I have access to the boards again. Cheers, Pierre From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 8 16:57:54 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 14:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates to the Alpha Micro Phun Machine Message-ID: <201606082157.u58Lvs8R58917818@floodgap.com> For those of you not on vcfed, yes, this is a real, live Alpha Micro Eagle 300 with AlphaTCP serving you information on the unusual Alpha Micro 68K systems and their peculiar DEC-like operating system, AMOS. New in this iteration is a lot of link cleanup, some custodial edits and a number of new downloads, including a tool for browsing ISO 9660 CDs and even a Rogue/Nethack port! http://ampm.floodgap.com/ (And if you don't believe it's an Alpha Micro:) http://ampm.floodgap.com/cgi-bin/systat -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Bowl angry. ---------------------------------------------------------------- From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 8 23:08:21 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 21:08:21 -0700 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <575848FC.1070107@snarc.net> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> <575848FC.1070107@snarc.net> Message-ID: <78F186A8-5ECB-4DD5-8350-AB941F868AC5@nf6x.net> > On Jun 8, 2016, at 09:34, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Give us a break, this is fundraising for a non-profit. I wasn't trying to be critical at all. I just didn't make the connection that the auction was the specific announcement that you were referring to. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 16:11:12 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 22:11:12 +0100 Subject: IO Selectric Message-ID: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> Folks I have today collect a recent E-Bay purchase. It appears to be an IO Selectric that has been left in a garage for a long period of time and is very gummed up. It will turn over with the manual handle, and it appears to try and type, but the carriage does not advance. All the tapes and chords appear to be in place. I have put some pictures here:- https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=277A0739F125010E!119461&authkey=!AGfgR GXKAjqDm7E&ithint=folder%2cJPG sorry for the long link. Does anyone have any suggestions as to which manuals are appropriate, and which documentation was followed to allow it to be used as a printer? Dave Wade G4UGM From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 8 16:44:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 14:44:56 -0700 Subject: IO Selectric In-Reply-To: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> References: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575891D8.6020104@sydex.com> On 06/08/2016 02:11 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > sorry for the long link. Does anyone have any suggestions as to > which manuals are appropriate, and which documentation was followed > to allow it to be used as a printer? Don't know if it'll help but the Yahoo group "golfballtypewritershop" does have manuals and a lot of expertise: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/golfballtypewritershop/info --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 8 16:50:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 14:50:36 -0700 Subject: IO Selectric In-Reply-To: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> References: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5758932C.10004@sydex.com> I just did a quick check--the Yahoo golfballtypewritershop group does have the Louis Sander 1983 article from Micro magazine about converting an I/O selectric for general computer use. There's also a two parter on the I/O Selectric theory of operation. You should have enough there to keep you busy. --Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Jun 8 17:37:00 2016 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:37:00 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <38e63c9a-2562-6e8a-cbef-4bfda7a8bb6e@mindspring.com> On 6/8/2016 3:13 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: >> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 > Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex > UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... > > BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs? > I have tried to compress/adapt the TMSCP boot in the PDP11 SIMH device driver, a bootstrap listing in a DEC tech manual, and using the programming concepts (hacks) in the MSCP DU M9312 boot prom 23-767A9, and have not been able to get a valid code image that fits in the PROM and has all the required functionality. So DEC must have taken some magic shortcut to get working TU boot code in the 23-E39A9 PROM. As to programming parts, I use an EETools TopMax programmer that I have had for years. It will do just about any of the older programmable devices. There are other programmers around (old DataIO's for example) that can do these bipolar PROMs. Also, M9312 boot PROMs are typically 82S131 (or equiv) 512x4 tristate devices, but only half the device is used; the other half of the device is never accessed on the M9312 and is just blank filled. An 82S129 (or equiv) 256x4 tristate device works just as well as a boot PROM as the upper address pin becomes an active low chip select, and this pin is pulled low on the M9312 board. -- Don North AK6DN From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Jun 8 19:56:46 2016 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 17:56:46 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <86cb25ca-48ce-0bd7-4300-2eef68cec30a@mindspring.com> On 6/8/2016 3:13 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: >> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 > Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex > UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... > > BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs? > I have tried to compress/adapt the TMSCP boot in the PDP11 SIMH device driver, a bootstrap listing in a DEC tech manual, and using the programming concepts (hacks) in the MSCP DU M9312 boot prom 23-767A9, and have not been able to get a valid code image that fits in the PROM and has all the required functionality. So DEC must have taken some magic shortcut to get working TU boot code in the 23-E39A9 PROM. As to programming parts, I use an EETools TopMax programmer that I have had for years. It will do just about any of the older programmable devices. There are other programmers around (old DataIO's for example) that can do these bipolar PROMs. Also, M9312 boot PROMs are typically 82S131 (or equiv) 512x4 tristate devices, but only half the device is used; the other half of the device is never accessed on the M9312 and is just blank filled. An 82S129 (or equiv) 256x4 tristate device works just as well as a boot PROM as the upper address pin becomes an active low chip select, and this pin is pulled low on the M9312 board. -- Don North AK6DN Actually the page listed below is a big out of date with respect to some M9312 images (it is not an up to date mirror). The up to date page is at: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/ Also note the 82S137/Am27S32/74S573 (1024x4-TS) device list applies to the CONSOLE PROMs, not the BOOT PROMs. On 6/8/2016 5:27 PM, John Robertson wrote: > > No way the M9312 can self modify, it is a burn once PROM - > 82S137/Am27S32/74S573 (1024x4-TS) and can easily be read and blown on a Data > I/O 29B. > > If you have a good copy of the original code it WILL replicate on a new PROM > just fine. > > Reference page of the files: > > http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/promfiles.html > > John :-#)# > -- Don North AK6DN From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 17:13:09 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:13:09 +1200 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: > 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs? Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 8 17:46:56 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 17:46:56 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> I wrote... On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: > 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 To which mike replied... ---- Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs? ---- Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the available rom space - self modifying code or something... Data I/O 29B J From jrr at flippers.com Wed Jun 8 19:27:31 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 17:27:31 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 06/08/2016 3:46 PM, Jay West wrote: > I wrote... > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: >> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 > To which mike replied... > ---- > Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex > UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... > > BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs? > ---- > Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the available rom space - self modifying code or something... > > Data I/O 29B > > J > > > No way the M9312 can self modify, it is a burn once PROM - 82S137/Am27S32/74S573 (1024x4-TS) and can easily be read and blown on a Data I/O 29B. If you have a good copy of the original code it WILL replicate on a new PROM just fine. Reference page of the files: http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/promfiles.html John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 19:56:29 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:56:29 +1200 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:27 PM, John Robertson wrote: > On 06/08/2016 3:46 PM, Jay West wrote: >> >> I wrote... >> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: >>> >>> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 >> >> To which mike replied... >> ---- >> Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex >> UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... >> >> BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 >> ROMs? >> ---- >> Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not >> sure, but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit >> in the available rom space - self modifying code or something... >> > > No way the M9312 can self modify, it is a burn once PROM - I kinda assumed it was a case of copying itself to RAM and self-modifying as it runs there - if it ever happened. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 8 19:56:52 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 20:56:52 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 8, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Jay West wrote: > > I wrote... > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: >> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 > > To which mike replied... > ---- > Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex > UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... > > BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs? > ---- > Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the available rom space - self modifying code or something... MSCP isn't all that hard. The RSTS secondary loader fits in one block, and it contains not just code to speak MSCP but also enough room for a map of pointers to where the code to load lives (as opposed to the primary boot which just has to load one block from address zero). paul From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Jun 8 20:02:18 2016 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:02:18 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <675d57b8-279c-36cb-b4a8-2199f65a0a9e@mindspring.com> On 6/8/2016 5:56 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:27 PM, John Robertson wrote: > >> No way the M9312 can self modify, it is a burn once PROM - > I kinda assumed it was a case of copying itself to RAM and > self-modifying as it runs there - if it ever happened. > > Mike As it happens the 23-760A9 TT/PR boot PROM does this copy by building a bootstrap sequence in RAM, and then jumping to it. Once it is built it is not self modifying, however. Ref: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-760A9/23-760A9.lst -- Don North AK6DN From lists at loomcom.com Wed Jun 8 21:51:40 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 21:51:40 -0500 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> * On Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 10:32:09AM -0400, Bryan C. Everly wrote: > Hi, > > I have really fond memories of this operating system (from before the > SVR4 Solaris days). It was the first UNIX I used (and I'm still a big > BSD fan). > > (Not sure what the protocol is here for asking something like this so > if I run afoul of a copyright policy or something, just tell me to > stop asking and I will.) > > Is there any way someone can get their hands on an install disc for > this? I have some old SPARC hardware that it would be fun to run on > if I could find the installer. > > Thanks, > Bryan Hi Bryan, I don't suppose anyone will be too upset if I share my SunOS stuff on the web. For now I've put it at: http://www.loomcom.com/SunOS You'll probably want SunOS-4.1.4.iso.gz, which should expand to about 380MB or so. Patches are under sunos_414_patches If you have a Sun3, you can grab SunOS-4.1.3_U1B.iso.gz. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Jun 8 23:56:17 2016 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 21:56:17 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6236254d-6191-7a3e-57b6-0f075d8679f7@mindspring.com> On 6/8/2016 5:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jun 8, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Jay West wrote: >> >> I wrote... >> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: >>> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 >> To which mike replied... >> ---- >> Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex >> UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... >> >> BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs? >> ---- >> Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the available rom space - self modifying code or something... > MSCP isn't all that hard. The RSTS secondary loader fits in one block, and it contains not just code to speak MSCP but also enough room for a map of pointers to where the code to load lives (as opposed to the primary boot which just has to load one block from address zero). > > paul In an M9312 boot PROM there are 49. words of bootstrap space that are available for code and data. Getting an MSCP boot to fit in that space required playing some tricks like treating some specially crafted instructions as data values (and vice versa). -- Don North AK6DN From nekonoko at me.com Thu Jun 9 00:50:42 2016 From: nekonoko at me.com (Pete Plank) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2016 22:50:42 -0700 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> References: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> > On Jun 8, 2016, at 7:51 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > If you have a Sun3, you can grab SunOS-4.1.3_U1B.iso.gz. > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > seth at loomcom.com There?s also a decent SunOS collection for Sun3/3x available on the Sun3/3x archive at: https://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 9 05:41:41 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 06:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS Message-ID: <20160609104141.56F5218C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay West > some (me) are sticklers for original code. Is there possibly a listing of the code in a fiche, somewhere? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 9 05:48:45 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 06:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait Message-ID: <20160609104845.2DF2A18C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Devin Davison > well there goes my plan of trying to keep it under the radar. Sorry, I didn't mean to upset your plan (and you); I just didn't know if anyone was watching for VAX-11/780 parts, they come by so rarely. We have discussed this topic before, but let me recapitulate one point about pricing and valuations: if we want to stop this stuff being scrapped, we need to make sure the prices realized are well above scrap. This will have several consequences: i) If people only get low (scrap-region) prices, why go to all the bother/hassle of listing things on auction sites; just proceeed directly to 'Go'. ii) Hopefully, if values are non-trivial, the word will get around, and people who have this stuff will go to the effort to list it, instead of leaving it to moulder, etc. Yes, I understand that will make this a more expensive hobby, but TANSTAAFL. YMMV. Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 03:07:16 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:07:16 +0100 Subject: IO Selectric In-Reply-To: <5758932C.10004@sydex.com> References: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> <5758932C.10004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01f601d1c225$f054c1c0$d0fe4540$@gmail.com> Thanks Chuck, I should have got those before as I have been a member on there for ages, just couldn't remember they were there. The stuff in mine looks very similar to the Louis Sanders article I have, so I am sure its from the same article. I now need to read the theory and clean, adjust and lubricate. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 08 June 2016 22:51 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IO Selectric > > I just did a quick check--the Yahoo golfballtypewritershop group does have the > Louis Sander 1983 article from Micro magazine about converting an I/O > selectric for general computer use. > > There's also a two parter on the I/O Selectric theory of operation. > > You should have enough there to keep you busy. > > --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 9 08:59:28 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:59:28 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS In-Reply-To: <6236254d-6191-7a3e-57b6-0f075d8679f7@mindspring.com> References: <3c054c8e-8b55-4fee-6eff-16f02d46e07e@bitsavers.org> <000d01d1c1b4$743e2980$5cba7c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1c1d7$a93afdc0$fbb0f940$@classiccmp.org> <6236254d-6191-7a3e-57b6-0f075d8679f7@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 9, 2016, at 12:56 AM, Don North wrote: > > On 6/8/2016 5:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Jay West wrote: >>> >>> I wrote... >>> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West wrote: >>>> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81 >>> To which mike replied... >>> ---- >>> Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex >>> UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP... >>> >>> BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs? >>> ---- >>> Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the available rom space - self modifying code or something... >> MSCP isn't all that hard. The RSTS secondary loader fits in one block, and it contains not just code to speak MSCP but also enough room for a map of pointers to where the code to load lives (as opposed to the primary boot which just has to load one block from address zero). >> >> paul > > In an M9312 boot PROM there are 49. words of bootstrap space that are available for code and data. Getting an MSCP boot to fit in that space required playing some tricks like treating some specially crafted instructions as data values (and vice versa). Oh... I didn't realize it was that small. Yes, that does make it harder. paul From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Thu Jun 9 09:54:21 2016 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 07:54:21 -0700 Subject: LASM compatible cross assembler? Message-ID: <211A408B-7B1E-4E5F-A48E-2F0AE1726B64@fozztexx.com> After getting my TRS-80 Model II keyboard repaired and up & running last week (http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/257), I've been messing around with the Kermit source code to see if I can add hardware flow control support. I'm able to build Kermit using LASM on CP/M or on an emulator, but it would be nice to be able to setup a Makefile so I can do the build directly on Linux. Is there a LASM compatible assembler out there with source available that I can run on Linux? I've tried a whole lot of different ones that are capable of doing 8080 & Z80 assembly, but not one understands the syntax of LASM (or I'm just not running them with the right flags). I've tried so far: z80asm - http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/z80asm as - http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/index.html kio's zasm - http://k1.spdns.de/Develop/Projects/zasm/Distributions/ zasm - http://lpg.ticalc.org/prj_zasm/ z80-asm - http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/achim/z80-asm.html z80pack - http://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ Alternately, is the source code for Ward Christensen's LASM available anywhere? The best I could find was a note from a Kermit developer from 27 years ago asking for the source. I suppose I could use a disassembler, but then I don't have proper labels or comments. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Thu Jun 9 09:59:20 2016 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 07:59:20 -0700 Subject: Trying to repair a Smith-Corona letter quality "printer" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 3, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Chris Osborn wrote: > Does anyone have any idea of how to get this thing open (without breaking the plastic)? I?ve searched all over the internet but I can?t find any scanned service manuals. The typewriter is from 1984 and was sold for $600 new so it doesn't seem to me like it would be a "disposable" item so there has to be a way to open it and service it. From what I can tell the 200/300/400 all use the same case, and the Memory Correct II/III use a very similar case, so info for any of those may help. Just for completeness and for future searchers who may run across my original message, I *was* able to get the typewriter open and get it fixed. After removing the two screws near the platen that hold the top on, you just have to pry the top up really hard. It's held in by two large metal posts in very strong clips. The fix for the typewriter was actually very easy, it was just a blown fuse. I've now got it working with the Messenger Module and I'm able to print to it with both RS232 and parallel connections. I've also documented what I've been able to find about the escape codes for formatting and the dip switch settings on my blog: http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/258 I'm disappointed that typing on the keyboard doesn't send anything out the RS232 port, but that was expected. But the typewriter works now and it's pretty cool watching it automatically type under computer control! -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 11:43:30 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 11:43:30 -0500 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> References: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Pete Plank wrote: > > > On Jun 8, 2016, at 7:51 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > If you have a Sun3, you can grab SunOS-4.1.3_U1B.iso.gz. > > > > -Seth > > -- > > Seth Morabito > > seth at loomcom.com > > There?s also a decent SunOS collection for Sun3/3x available on the > Sun3/3x archive at: https://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml < > https://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml> > Thanks to both of you! -- Eric Christopherson From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 9 12:49:21 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:49:21 +0100 Subject: TK50 and xxdp+ Message-ID: Hi I'm renovating a TK50 . Its on my 11/83 and if use the PDP-11 format disk the Identify function finds and lists it. There should be a TK50 exerciser among the xxdp functions somewhere anybody know which one? Rod From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 13:01:54 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 11:01:54 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait In-Reply-To: <20160609104845.2DF2A18C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160609104845.2DF2A18C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Devin Davison > > > well there goes my plan of trying to keep it under the radar. > > Sorry, I didn't mean to upset your plan (and you); I just didn't know if > anyone was watching for VAX-11/780 parts, they come by so rarely. > If anyone is desperate for VAX-11/780 parts, let me know -- a friend of mine recently came into a load of them. If it can help someone bring a /780 back to life, he'd be up for working something out... - Josh > > We have discussed this topic before, but let me recapitulate one point > about > pricing and valuations: if we want to stop this stuff being scrapped, we > need > to make sure the prices realized are well above scrap. This will have > several > consequences: > > i) If people only get low (scrap-region) prices, why go to all the > bother/hassle of listing things on auction sites; just proceeed directly to > 'Go'. ii) Hopefully, if values are non-trivial, the word will get around, > and > people who have this stuff will go to the effort to list it, instead of > leaving it to moulder, etc. > > Yes, I understand that will make this a more expensive hobby, but > TANSTAAFL. > YMMV. > > Noel > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 9 09:01:10 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 07:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> from Seth Morabito at "Jun 8, 16 09:51:40 pm" Message-ID: <201606091401.u59E1Apc46007254@floodgap.com> > I don't suppose anyone will be too upset if I share my SunOS stuff > on the web. > > For now I've put it at: > > http://www.loomcom.com/SunOS > > You'll probably want SunOS-4.1.4.iso.gz, which should expand to > about 380MB or so. Patches are under sunos_414_patches Many thanks for putting the patches up, Seth. My OS/MP Solbourne thanks you. I'm going to go through these and see what can cleanly apply to OS/MP, but my thinking is that most of them should work. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Think! It ain't illegal yet! -- Funkadelic --------------------------------- From bryan at bceassociates.com Thu Jun 9 11:59:24 2016 From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:59:24 -0400 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> Message-ID: <2518440439059704821@unknownmsgid> Thanks all! Thanks, Bryan > On Jun 9, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Pete Plank wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 7:51 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >>> If you have a Sun3, you can grab SunOS-4.1.3_U1B.iso.gz. >>> >>> -Seth >>> -- >>> Seth Morabito >>> seth at loomcom.com >> >> There?s also a decent SunOS collection for Sun3/3x available on the >> Sun3/3x archive at: https://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml < >> https://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml> > > Thanks to both of you! > > -- > Eric Christopherson From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jun 9 13:01:54 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 11:01:54 -0700 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> Message-ID: I guess now I'm going to have to add my prototype Sparc (no model number, but looks like a 1) pizza box to the stack of machines to run again. Thanks -pete On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Pete Plank wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 8, 2016, at 7:51 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > > If you have a Sun3, you can grab SunOS-4.1.3_U1B.iso.gz. > > > > > > -Seth > > > -- > > > Seth Morabito > > > seth at loomcom.com > > > > There?s also a decent SunOS collection for Sun3/3x available on the > > Sun3/3x archive at: https://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml < > > https://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml> > > > > Thanks to both of you! > > -- > Eric Christopherson > > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Jun 9 13:05:03 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 11:05:03 -0700 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <78F186A8-5ECB-4DD5-8350-AB941F868AC5@nf6x.net> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> <575848FC.1070107@snarc.net> <78F186A8-5ECB-4DD5-8350-AB941F868AC5@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5F2C515D-1D1C-4E87-B3B3-38763C6FE70B@eschatologist.net> On Jun 8, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Jun 8, 2016, at 09:34, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Give us a break, this is fundraising for a non-profit. > > I wasn't trying to be critical at all. I just didn't make the connection that the auction was the specific announcement that you were referring to. Neither did I, I was expecting a followup to the original email to explain what the announcement was. Or at least a message with ?Announcement? in the subject. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Jun 9 13:16:06 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 11:16:06 -0700 Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> Message-ID: <1D6AE4E5-15A6-45EE-A08B-5B2C679A8110@eschatologist.net> This all makes me want to try bringing up a modern compiler on SunOS 4.1.4 on my SPARCstation 20 again. The closest I got was bringing up GCC 2.95.3 using the system compiler, I couldn?t manage to build GCC 3.3 or 4.2.1 for SunOS. (For legal reasons I can?t really go near GPLv3 developer tools.) Maybe it?s a bit too much of a lost cause, and I should stick to Solaris 8. That?d let me install the upgraded CPUs too. And I could probably build LLVM/clang on Linux as sparcv8/sun4m cross-compiler much more easily too... -- Chris From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 13:48:48 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:48:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: <1D6AE4E5-15A6-45EE-A08B-5B2C679A8110@eschatologist.net> References: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> <1D6AE4E5-15A6-45EE-A08B-5B2C679A8110@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2016, Chris Hanson wrote: > The closest I got was bringing up GCC 2.95.3 using the system compiler, > I couldn?t manage to build GCC 3.3 or 4.2.1 for SunOS. (For legal > reasons I can?t really go near GPLv3 developer tools.) Last time I tried was around gcc v4.7 and it failed miserably with a bunch of linker errors. I have Sun's compiler on there, but it's not even C99 compliant and that pisses off gcc something fierce these days. So, one would probably have to built it up stepwise, and maybe grab GNU binutils and see if their linker has any better luck. I ran out of steam and didn't try to go that far. -Swift From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 15:24:17 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:24:17 +1200 Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20160609104845.2DF2A18C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > From: Devin Davison >> >> > well there goes my plan of trying to keep it under the radar. >> >> Sorry, I didn't mean to upset your plan (and you); I just didn't know if >> anyone was watching for VAX-11/780 parts, they come by so rarely. >> > > If anyone is desperate for VAX-11/780 parts, let me know -- a friend of > mine recently came into a load of them. If it can help someone bring a > /780 back to life, he'd be up for working something out... I'm going to start that with my 780 soon. I'll probably snag the eBay parts if the price stays reasonable and I'll let you know how things go. BTW you mentioned you had had problems with your 730 main breaker too? How exactly was it misbehaving? Did it sometimes refuse to power machine even when it was in the ON position? Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 16:13:46 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 14:13:46 -0700 Subject: TK50 and xxdp+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > I'm renovating a TK50 . Its on my 11/83 and if use the PDP-11 format > disk the Identify function finds and lists it. > > There should be a TK50 exerciser among the xxdp functions somewhere anybody > know which one? BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DL0 124KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! .R ZTKA?? ZTKAE0.BIN DRSXM-C0 CZTKA-E-0 CZTKAE0 TKxx FUNCTIONAL UNIT IS TK70/TK50 RESTART ADDRESS 142060 DR>STA Change HW (L) ? Y # UNITS (D) ? 1 unit 0 TKIP ADDRESS (O) 174500 ? TK VECTOR (O) 260 ? T/MSCP UNIT NUMBER (O) 0 ? TESTING UNIT 0 -------------------------------------------------- BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DL0 124KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! .R ZTKB?? ZTKBD0.BIC DRSXM-C0 CZTKB-D-0 CZTKBD0 TKxx DATA RELIABILITY UNIT IS TK50,TK70 RESTART ADDRESS 142060 DR>STA Change HW (L) ? Y # UNITS (D) ? 1 unit 0 TKIP ADDRESS (O) 174500 ? TMSCP UNIT NUMBER (O) 0 ? Change SW (L) ? N *** A MINIMUM OF TWO PASSES ARE REQUIRED TO VERIFY ERROR RATES *** ARE THE DRIVES LOADED WITH CARTRIDGES (L) Y ? From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 16:15:34 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:15:34 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20160609104845.2DF2A18C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: It looked like a good batch of boards and i was holding out on finding a machine. Any good place to get a 11/780 aside from watching the local scrap centers with my fingers crossed one will be there? On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Noel Chiappa > > wrote: > > > >> > From: Devin Davison > >> > >> > well there goes my plan of trying to keep it under the radar. > >> > >> Sorry, I didn't mean to upset your plan (and you); I just didn't know if > >> anyone was watching for VAX-11/780 parts, they come by so rarely. > >> > > > > If anyone is desperate for VAX-11/780 parts, let me know -- a friend of > > mine recently came into a load of them. If it can help someone bring a > > /780 back to life, he'd be up for working something out... > > I'm going to start that with my 780 soon. I'll probably snag the eBay > parts if the price stays reasonable and I'll let you know how things > go. > > BTW you mentioned you had had problems with your 730 main breaker too? > How exactly was it misbehaving? Did it sometimes refuse to power > machine even when it was in the ON position? > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 9 16:55:04 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 22:55:04 +0100 Subject: TK50 and xxdp+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d323cd6-e731-1537-526a-d82abd4ea82a@btinternet.com> On 09/06/2016 22:13, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: >> Hi >> >> I'm renovating a TK50 . Its on my 11/83 and if use the PDP-11 format >> disk the Identify function finds and lists it. >> >> There should be a TK50 exerciser among the xxdp functions somewhere anybody >> know which one? > BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR > > > XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 > REVISION: F0 > BOOTED FROM DL0 > 124KW OF MEMORY > NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM > > RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 > TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! > > .R ZTKA?? > ZTKAE0.BIN > > DRSXM-C0 > CZTKA-E-0 > CZTKAE0 TKxx FUNCTIONAL > UNIT IS TK70/TK50 > RESTART ADDRESS 142060 > DR>STA > > Change HW (L) ? Y > > # UNITS (D) ? 1 > > unit 0 > TKIP ADDRESS (O) 174500 ? > TK VECTOR (O) 260 ? > T/MSCP UNIT NUMBER (O) 0 ? > > TESTING UNIT 0 > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR > > > XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 > REVISION: F0 > BOOTED FROM DL0 > 124KW OF MEMORY > NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM > > RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 > TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! > > .R ZTKB?? > ZTKBD0.BIC > > DRSXM-C0 > CZTKB-D-0 > CZTKBD0 TKxx DATA RELIABILITY > UNIT IS TK50,TK70 > RESTART ADDRESS 142060 > DR>STA > > Change HW (L) ? Y > > # UNITS (D) ? 1 > > unit 0 > TKIP ADDRESS (O) 174500 ? > TMSCP UNIT NUMBER (O) 0 ? > > Change SW (L) ? N > > *** A MINIMUM OF TWO PASSES ARE REQUIRED TO VERIFY ERROR RATES *** > > ARE THE DRIVES LOADED WITH CARTRIDGES (L) Y ? Thanks Glen Now all I have to do is locate it in my pile of 5.25 RT11 MAINT disks Regards Rod From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Jun 9 17:15:14 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:15:14 -0700 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <5F2C515D-1D1C-4E87-B3B3-38763C6FE70B@eschatologist.net> References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> <575848FC.1070107@snarc.net> <78F186A8-5ECB-4DD5-8350-AB941F868AC5@nf6x.net> <5F2C515D-1D1C-4E87-B3B3-38763C6FE70B@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 9, 2016, at 11:05 , Chris Hanson wrote: > > On Jun 8, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 09:34, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> Give us a break, this is fundraising for a non-profit. >> >> I wasn't trying to be critical at all. I just didn't make the connection that the auction was the specific announcement that you were referring to. > > Neither did I, I was expecting a followup to the original email to explain what the announcement was. Or at least a message with ?Announcement? in the subject. Also, given my expectation of what those two machines would sell for and me not being in heavy acquisition mode at the moment, my brain subconsciously dumped that email into the "somebody else's news" category as a self-defense mechanism! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com Thu Jun 9 18:04:56 2016 From: oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com (Oscar Vermeulen) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 01:04:56 +0200 Subject: Using the simh LGP-30 emulator Message-ID: Some time ago, there were two posts asking how to operate the simh LGP-30 emulator. It is not exactly obvious from the rudimentary manual, and it seems nobody had figured it out completely. I am slightly obsessed with this machine at the moment (it happens), so here is a how-to on operating the emulator and running the tape library of Christian Corti on it - in the hope it's of use to others looking for clues: http://obsolescenceguaranteed.blogspot.ch/2016/06/using-simh-lgp-30-emulator.html Corti's LGP-30 emulator, by the way, gives a much better feel for the machine. But simh source is available, which I needed because I'm making a replica hardware front panel for the machine. Regards, Oscar. From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Jun 9 19:13:17 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 01:13:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > > It makes me wonder how many patients have had to wait on care or didn't > get > > proper care because of an IT screwup related to Windows. I have to say > just > > _seeing_ Windows on machines in the ER made me livid. I found it > breathtaking > > they were that caviler about getting people checked in, keeping records > > straight, etc... I guess I shouldn't have visited the sausage factory, so > to speak... > > > > What would you expect. Properly maintained, managed enterprise and locked > down Windows/7 is solid and reliable. > In the UK it is hard to use Linux in the "Public Sector" and in the UK most > Hospitals are Public Sector. > You can use Linux BUT you must have a support contract in place and run a > supported distro. > Having costed this it brings the price up way beyond that of a Windows > desktop. You can surely get a proper Linux support contract -- proper as in: if you trigger a bug (which may be anything from a protocol violation, through a security hole, to a crash) in the kernel or other core component, then you can log it with your support provider's bug tracking system and get it fixed with an update release of the offending component provided within an agreed reasonable time frame, having live access to the bug status throughout the cycle. Now can you get it with Windows? This is a serious question -- I've been asking various IT people about it many times over the years, and only got evasive answers (if any), but perhaps I asked the wrong people. Maciej From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 20:38:41 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:38:41 +0800 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) Message-ID: In cooperation with Faculty of Management, Comenius University in Bratislava, Slovakia, SDIWC is inviting everyone to attend and participate in The Third International Conference on Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) that will be held on June 29-July 1, 2017. The event will be held over three days, with presentations delivered by researchers from the international community, including presentations from keynote speakers and state-of-the-art lectures. All registered papers will be published in SDIWC Digital Library, and in the proceedings of the conference. The conference welcomes papers on (but not limited to) the research topics posted below. Thank you so much and See you in the conference. Best regards, Joan Sali Conference Manager INFOSEC2017 ---------IMPORTANT INFORMATION--------- http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ Venue: Faculty of Management, Comenius University in Bratislava, Slovakia Date: June 29-July 1, 2017 Contact email: infosec17 at sdiwc.net Submission Deadline Open from now until May 01, 2017 Notification of Acceptance May 20, 2017 or 4-7 weeks from the submission date Camera Ready Submission Open from now until May 28, 2017 Registration Deadline Open from now until May 28, 2017 Conference Dates June 29-July 1, 2017 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 21:39:41 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 22:39:41 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 Message-ID: So today I picked up something I had never seen before - an IBM 3511. This is a large tower expansion chassis for the PS/2 line. It looks very straightforward - but can any of you PS/2 fans comment on this? Was it an unsuccessful product? Low demand item? -- Will From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 21:51:24 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 22:51:24 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did not exist during my time at IBM. Must be a later ps/2 thing. I may have some parts related to it though. Bill Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Jun 9, 2016 10:39 PM, "William Donzelli" wrote: > So today I picked up something I had never seen before - an IBM 3511. > This is a large tower expansion chassis for the PS/2 line. It looks > very straightforward - but can any of you PS/2 fans comment on this? > Was it an unsuccessful product? Low demand item? > > -- > Will > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 21:55:43 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 22:55:43 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 3511 seems to have been a thing from 1990 through 1993, according to IBM. -- Will On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:51 PM, william degnan wrote: > Did not exist during my time at IBM. Must be a later ps/2 thing. I may > have some parts related to it though. > > Bill > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Jun 9, 2016 10:39 PM, "William Donzelli" wrote: > >> So today I picked up something I had never seen before - an IBM 3511. >> This is a large tower expansion chassis for the PS/2 line. It looks >> very straightforward - but can any of you PS/2 fans comment on this? >> Was it an unsuccessful product? Low demand item? >> >> -- >> Will >> From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Jun 9 22:21:35 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 20:21:35 -0700 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C287FE-F2BC-4CA6-8D81-A1B4C4667FEE@nf6x.net> > On Jun 9, 2016, at 19:39, William Donzelli wrote: > > So today I picked up something I had never seen before - an IBM 3511. > This is a large tower expansion chassis for the PS/2 line. It looks > very straightforward - but can any of you PS/2 fans comment on this? > Was it an unsuccessful product? Low demand item? > I googled up a brochure, and from the front it appears to be based on the same chassis as my PS/2 85. I guess it was meant to be an external SCSI enclosure for machines of that era? I believe that the 85 was intended for server duty, so a matching external drive enclosure makes sense to me. My machine came without its original hard drive, so I substituted a SCSI2SD. I also added a SCSI CD-ROM drive that I harvested from one of my Sun Ultra 60 stripped chassis, then used that to install OS/2 on it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jun 9 22:35:21 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 20:35:21 -0700 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: <42C287FE-F2BC-4CA6-8D81-A1B4C4667FEE@nf6x.net> References: <42C287FE-F2BC-4CA6-8D81-A1B4C4667FEE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <7227D47F-A119-46F7-9312-B3C4FB87904B@shiresoft.com> > On Jun 9, 2016, at 8:21 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Jun 9, 2016, at 19:39, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> So today I picked up something I had never seen before - an IBM 3511. >> This is a large tower expansion chassis for the PS/2 line. It looks >> very straightforward - but can any of you PS/2 fans comment on this? >> Was it an unsuccessful product? Low demand item? >> > > I googled up a brochure, and from the front it appears to be based on the same chassis as my PS/2 85. I guess it was meant to be an external SCSI enclosure for machines of that era? I believe that the 85 was intended for server duty, so a matching external drive enclosure makes sense to me. > Yes, it was an external SCSI enclosure. If I call correctly (my PS/2 memory is a bit foggy at the moment) it was roughly the same form factor has the PS/2 95 (wider than the PS/2 60 & PS/80). The 95 also had a pluggable processor card (with all of the memory on it) so it would be easier to upgrade CPUs/memory technologies. The 95 also has a green LED character array (8 characters?) that information could be written to. Had fun writing code to write stuff to it. ;-) TTFN - Guy From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 10 00:04:09 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 06:04:09 +0100 Subject: Big announcement tomorrow night In-Reply-To: References: <575647B2.5000004@snarc.net> <0998f68e-ce7f-675d-d62c-7aa4f2bf273c@jetnet.ab.ca> <3576EB6D-0A2D-46C8-8D39-5B1AA65A9F0A@nf6x.net> <57583C1B.6020801@snarc.net> <53FFEE36-AF95-4582-91B1-FF95E22EC945@nf6x.net> <575848FC.1070107@snarc.net> <78F186A8-5ECB-4DD5-8350-AB941F868AC5@nf6x.net> <5F2C515D-1D1C-4E87-B3B3-38763C6FE70B@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 09/06/2016 23:15, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Jun 9, 2016, at 11:05 , Chris Hanson wrote: >> >> On Jun 8, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> >>>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 09:34, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> Give us a break, this is fundraising for a non-profit. >>> I wasn't trying to be critical at all. I just didn't make the connection that the auction was the specific announcement that you were referring to. >> Neither did I, I was expecting a followup to the original email to explain what the announcement was. Or at least a message with ?Announcement? in the subject. > Also, given my expectation of what those two machines would sell for and me not being in heavy acquisition mode at the moment, my brain subconsciously dumped that email into the "somebody else's news" category as a self-defense mechanism! :) The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Rod From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 01:03:24 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 23:03:24 -0700 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> It's interesting. It's the new thing. I get spammed by these at work, maybe several a month now. It's more sophisticated than usual: they take the same name as legit conferences but with a very slight variation, copy or invent badges and affiliations, and are (supposedly) in unusual, remote, but attractive places. Web sites are well done at first glance, although it doesn't take long to figure they are slightly off in every respect, and always in the same format. Of course you need to pay to register, which will go straight to Joan who works for the famous organization @gmail.com. Jay can you take down the impostor please. And by the way, don't forget, I am organizing an IEEE Conference on Upside Down Pancakes in Peru in 2018. I haven't had the time to make the website yet but you can already send your money to me. I am not affiliated with Joan but my email ends with @gmail.com just the same, so you are in good hands. Marc > On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Joan Sali wrote: > > In cooperation with Faculty of Management, Comenius University in > Bratislava, Slovakia, SDIWC is inviting everyone to attend and participate > in The Third International Conference on Information Security and Cyber > Forensics (INFOSEC2017) > > that > will be held on June 29-July 1, 2017. The event will be held over three > days, with presentations delivered by researchers from the international > community, including presentations from keynote speakers and > state-of-the-art lectures. > > All registered papers will be published in SDIWC Digital Library, and in > the proceedings of the conference. > > The conference welcomes papers on (but not limited to) the research topics > posted below. > > Thank you so much and See you in the conference. > > Best regards, > > Joan Sali > Conference Manager > INFOSEC2017 > > > ---------IMPORTANT INFORMATION--------- > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > Venue: Faculty of Management, Comenius University in Bratislava, Slovakia > Date: June 29-July 1, 2017 > Contact email: infosec17 at sdiwc.net > > Submission Deadline Open from now until May 01, 2017 > Notification of Acceptance May 20, 2017 or 4-7 weeks from the submission > date > Camera Ready Submission Open from now until May 28, 2017 > Registration Deadline Open from now until May 28, 2017 > Conference Dates June 29-July 1, 2017 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 10 01:10:21 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:10:21 +0100 Subject: TK50 and xxdp+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 09/06/2016 22:13, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: >> Hi >> >> I'm renovating a TK50 . Its on my 11/83 and if use the PDP-11 format >> disk the Identify function finds and lists it. >> >> There should be a TK50 exerciser among the xxdp functions somewhere anybody >> know which one? > BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR > > > XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 > REVISION: F0 > BOOTED FROM DL0 > 124KW OF MEMORY > NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM > > RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 > TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! > > .R ZTKA?? > ZTKAE0.BIN > > DRSXM-C0 > CZTKA-E-0 > CZTKAE0 TKxx FUNCTIONAL > UNIT IS TK70/TK50 > RESTART ADDRESS 142060 > DR>STA > > Change HW (L) ? Y > > # UNITS (D) ? 1 > > unit 0 > TKIP ADDRESS (O) 174500 ? > TK VECTOR (O) 260 ? > T/MSCP UNIT NUMBER (O) 0 ? > > TESTING UNIT 0 > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR > > > XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 > REVISION: F0 > BOOTED FROM DL0 > 124KW OF MEMORY > NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM > > RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 > TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! > > .R ZTKB?? > ZTKBD0.BIC > > DRSXM-C0 > CZTKB-D-0 > CZTKBD0 TKxx DATA RELIABILITY > UNIT IS TK50,TK70 > RESTART ADDRESS 142060 > DR>STA > > Change HW (L) ? Y > > # UNITS (D) ? 1 > > unit 0 > TKIP ADDRESS (O) 174500 ? > TMSCP UNIT NUMBER (O) 0 ? > > Change SW (L) ? N > > *** A MINIMUM OF TWO PASSES ARE REQUIRED TO VERIFY ERROR RATES *** > > ARE THE DRIVES LOADED WITH CARTRIDGES (L) Y ? Thanks Glen Now all I have to do is locate it in my pile of 5.25 RT11 MAINT disks Regards Rod ` From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 03:19:06 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:19:06 +0100 Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <024f01d1c2f0$c1db0130$45910390$@gmail.com> > > What would you expect. Properly maintained, managed enterprise and > > locked down Windows/7 is solid and reliable. > > In the UK it is hard to use Linux in the "Public Sector" and in the UK > > most Hospitals are Public Sector. > > You can use Linux BUT you must have a support contract in place and > > run a supported distro. > > Having costed this it brings the price up way beyond that of a Windows > > desktop. > > You can surely get a proper Linux support contract -- proper as in: if you > trigger a bug (which may be anything from a protocol violation, through a > security hole, to a crash) in the kernel or other core component, then you can > log it with your support provider's bug tracking system and get it fixed with an > update release of the offending component provided within an agreed > reasonable time frame, having live access to the bug status throughout the > cycle. You can but you will have to pay a subscription, and that will be expensive. You will also have to stick to a supported release such as Red Enterprise Hat. > > Now can you get it with Windows? This is a serious question -- I've been asking > various IT people about it many times over the years, and only got evasive > answers (if any), but perhaps I asked the wrong people. > There are several options. Basic support is provided in the base licence, i.e. you get the fixes. Some of the licencing options include additional support calls. If you are big enough you will have a Technical Account Manager (TAM) who will assist in managing these calls. However, the bottom line is you can always raise a per-incident support call on supported software by ringing the support number and giving them a credit card. It used to be ?200. I have done this thee times I the last 20 years. Twice its been a known problem and received a refund. > Maciej Dave G4UGM From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 10 05:02:46 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 06:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait Message-ID: <20160610100246.23BD818C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Devin Davison > It looked like a good batch of boards and i was holding out on finding > a machine. I hope that "a machine" wasn't 'an empty machine to plug them into' - because AFAICT the chances are that happening are basically zero. (People seem to save either i) complete machines, or ii) just the boards - apparently not realizing that without the backplane, etc, the boards are only useful as spares.) > Any good place to get a 11/780 aside from watching the local scrap > centers with my fingers crossed one will be there? For some reasons, /780's seem to be pretty rare. I suspect it's a case of 'they were mostly all scrapped long ago in favour of later models which were faster and smaller' (we see the same thing in other lines). Don't get me wrong, I truly do fervently hope that you do find one somehow, but one has to be realistic, I think. (I'd love to have an RF11, but I'm pretty sure they almost all went to the big scrap-heap in the sky many moons ago; so I'm not holding on, waiting for one to appear - rather, I'm getting on with the stuff that _is_ still here.) Sorry to be such a downer... :-( Noel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 02:09:19 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 00:09:19 -0700 Subject: IO Selectric In-Reply-To: <01f601d1c225$f054c1c0$d0fe4540$@gmail.com> References: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> <5758932C.10004@sydex.com> <01f601d1c225$f054c1c0$d0fe4540$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901d1c2e7$02e6f760$08b4e620$@gmail.com> Dave, The best manual I have has 54 pages of visual diagrams for adjusting the Selectric II, which should be mechanically similar to yours, save the added actuators. With about 7 adjustments depicted per page. Really. That's no trivial piece of mechanical machinery, it's up there with some of the most complex mechanical calculators I have. But they are very well documented (unlike said mechanical calculators). I'm in the process of uploading a folder with all the Selectric II manuals I have accumulated to my public Dropbox, including that most useful "visual" guide. Once it's up through my minuscule upload bandwidth I'll post a link. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2016 1:07 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: IO Selectric Thanks Chuck, I should have got those before as I have been a member on there for ages, just couldn't remember they were there. The stuff in mine looks very similar to the Louis Sanders article I have, so I am sure its from the same article. I now need to read the theory and clean, adjust and lubricate. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 08 June 2016 22:51 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IO Selectric > > I just did a quick check--the Yahoo golfballtypewritershop group does > have the > Louis Sander 1983 article from Micro magazine about converting an I/O > selectric for general computer use. > > There's also a two parter on the I/O Selectric theory of operation. > > You should have enough there to keep you busy. > > --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 06:18:35 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:18:35 +0100 Subject: IO Selectric In-Reply-To: <000901d1c2e7$02e6f760$08b4e620$@gmail.com> References: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> <5758932C.10004@sydex.com> <01f601d1c225$f054c1c0$d0fe4540$@gmail.com> <000901d1c2e7$02e6f760$08b4e620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <035001d1c309$d4c5f480$7e51dd80$@gmail.com> Thanks Marc Sounds Great. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: 10 June 2016 08:09 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: IO Selectric > > Dave, > The best manual I have has 54 pages of visual diagrams for adjusting the > Selectric II, which should be mechanically similar to yours, save the added > actuators. With about 7 adjustments depicted per page. Really. That's no trivial > piece of mechanical machinery, it's up there with some of the most complex > mechanical calculators I have. But they are very well documented (unlike said > mechanical calculators). I'm in the process of uploading a folder with all the > Selectric II manuals I have accumulated to my public Dropbox, including that > most useful "visual" guide. Once it's up through my minuscule upload > bandwidth I'll post a link. > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Wade > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2016 1:07 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: IO Selectric > > Thanks Chuck, > > I should have got those before as I have been a member on there for ages, just > couldn't remember they were there. The stuff in mine looks very similar to the > Louis Sanders article I have, so I am sure its from the same article. > > I now need to read the theory and clean, adjust and lubricate. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > > Guzis > > Sent: 08 June 2016 22:51 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: IO Selectric > > > > I just did a quick check--the Yahoo golfballtypewritershop group does > > have > the > > Louis Sander 1983 article from Micro magazine about converting an I/O > > selectric for general computer use. > > > > There's also a two parter on the I/O Selectric theory of operation. > > > > You should have enough there to keep you busy. > > > > --Chuck > > From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Jun 10 06:32:25 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:32:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Windows use in medical spaces (Re: vintage computers in active use) In-Reply-To: <024f01d1c2f0$c1db0130$45910390$@gmail.com> References: <201605271952.u4RJqTkv5898452@floodgap.com> <014501d1b85a$0cc9bc50$265d34f0$@gmail.com> <024f01d1c2f0$c1db0130$45910390$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > > You can surely get a proper Linux support contract -- proper as in: if > you > > trigger a bug (which may be anything from a protocol violation, through a > > security hole, to a crash) in the kernel or other core component, then you > can > > log it with your support provider's bug tracking system and get it fixed > with an > > update release of the offending component provided within an agreed > > reasonable time frame, having live access to the bug status throughout the > > cycle. > > You can but you will have to pay a subscription, and that will be expensive. > You will also have to stick to a supported release such as Red Enterprise > Hat. Of course, that's the kind of arrangement I had in mind. > > Now can you get it with Windows? This is a serious question -- I've been > asking > > various IT people about it many times over the years, and only got evasive > > answers (if any), but perhaps I asked the wrong people. > > > > There are several options. Basic support is provided in the base licence, > i.e. you get the fixes. Some of the licencing options include additional > support calls. If you are big enough you will have a Technical Account > Manager (TAM) who will assist in managing these calls. However, the bottom > line is you can always raise a per-incident support call on supported > software by ringing the support number and giving them a credit card. It > used to be ?200. I have done this thee times I the last 20 years. Twice its > been a known problem and received a refund. Thanks, good to know. Might be useful to adjust some people's attitude ("you need to live with that") in the future. :) Maciej From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 06:47:38 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:47:38 +0200 Subject: LASM compatible cross assembler? In-Reply-To: <211A408B-7B1E-4E5F-A48E-2F0AE1726B64@fozztexx.com> References: <211A408B-7B1E-4E5F-A48E-2F0AE1726B64@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: On 9 June 2016 at 16:54, Chris Osborn wrote: > Alternately, is the source code for Ward Christensen's LASM available anywhere? The best I could find was a note from a Kermit developer from 27 years ago asking for the source. I suppose I could use a disassembler, but then I don't have proper labels or comments. > Is LASM-TDL compatible with LASM? There's source for the former. The build setup produces an executable called LASM.COM. From the docu: " LASM-TDL Description This is an enhanced version of the public domain LINKASM assembler. Originally authored by Digital Research, rewritten and 'LINKed' by Ward Christenson, improved by Pete Mack, expanded by Steve Schlaifer and now compatabile with TDL operands by Pete Rudenko. The major remaining step would be to MACROize it. Current primary enhancement is the accomodation of the TDL Z80 operands and a 'COPY' directive. This variation is now compatable with two Z80 disassemblers also in the public domain. " You can find lasm-tdl.lbr e.g. here: http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/oakcpm2/cpm/asmutl/index.html From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 07:33:34 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 20:33:34 +0800 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey there Curios Marc, For sure we are on the same boat, promoting events, conferences and you mentioned IEEE. Care to check the list of organizers with the privilege of using this badge and I assure you 100%, SDIWC.NET is in the list. WE are not SPAMMERS okay? If you have a format that would instantly tell the readers that a promotion is a fraud or worthy to attend, then please share it. Otherwise, you are just using your personal judgment which is unfair. Do you have proof that I am pocketing the required fees? If none, please refrain from assuming. This is scary. No wonder this world is in chaos because of people like you. Why not ask first then gather evidences before judging? Again, I am not forcing you to believe me or the event I am promoting. Just check the site, call the speakers, any one in the program committee or one, two or all the reviewers. I'll tell you, you'll eat your words in a heartbeat. Too high level sarcasm. Thank you anyway for reading. Warm regards, Joan Sali Conference Manager INFOSEC2017 http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > It's interesting. It's the new thing. I get spammed by these at work, > maybe several a month now. It's more sophisticated than usual: they take > the same name as legit conferences but with a very slight variation, copy > or invent badges and affiliations, and are (supposedly) in unusual, remote, > but attractive places. Web sites are well done at first glance, although it > doesn't take long to figure they are slightly off in every respect, and > always in the same format. Of course you need to pay to register, which > will go straight to Joan who works for the famous organization @gmail.com. > Jay can you take down the impostor please. > > And by the way, don't forget, I am organizing an IEEE Conference on Upside > Down Pancakes in Peru in 2018. I haven't had the time to make the website > yet but you can already send your money to me. I am not affiliated with > Joan but my email ends with @gmail.com just the same, so you are in good > hands. > > Marc > > > On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Joan Sali wrote: > > > > In cooperation with Faculty of Management, Comenius University in > > Bratislava, Slovakia, SDIWC is inviting everyone to attend and > participate > > in The Third International Conference on Information Security and Cyber > > Forensics (INFOSEC2017) > > < > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > that > > will be held on June 29-July 1, 2017. The event will be held over three > > days, with presentations delivered by researchers from the international > > community, including presentations from keynote speakers and > > state-of-the-art lectures. > > > > All registered papers will be published in SDIWC Digital Library, and in > > the proceedings of the conference. > > > > The conference welcomes papers on (but not limited to) the research > topics > > posted below. > > > > Thank you so much and See you in the conference. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Joan Sali > > Conference Manager > > INFOSEC2017 > > < > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > > > ---------IMPORTANT INFORMATION--------- > > > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > Venue: Faculty of Management, Comenius University in Bratislava, > Slovakia > > Date: June 29-July 1, 2017 > > Contact email: infosec17 at sdiwc.net > > > > Submission Deadline Open from now until May 01, 2017 > > Notification of Acceptance May 20, 2017 or 4-7 weeks from the submission > > date > > Camera Ready Submission Open from now until May 28, 2017 > > Registration Deadline Open from now until May 28, 2017 > > Conference Dates June 29-July 1, 2017 > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 07:37:10 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:37:10 -0400 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: I also got hit with this from my U of Delaware address. Whatever your justification, your message is off topic. The moderator should block these. b On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Joan Sali wrote: > Hey there Curios Marc, > For sure we are on the same boat, promoting events, conferences and you > mentioned IEEE. Care to check the list of organizers with the privilege of > using this badge and I assure you 100%, SDIWC.NET is in the list. WE are > not SPAMMERS okay? > > If you have a format that would instantly tell the readers that a promotion > is a fraud or worthy to attend, then please share it. Otherwise, you are > just using your personal judgment which is unfair. > > Do you have proof that I am pocketing the required fees? If none, please > refrain from assuming. This is scary. No wonder this world is in chaos > because of people like you. Why not ask first then gather evidences before > judging? > > Again, I am not forcing you to believe me or the event I am promoting. Just > check the site, call the speakers, any one in the program committee or one, > two or all the reviewers. I'll tell you, you'll eat your words in a > heartbeat. > > Too high level sarcasm. Thank you anyway for reading. > > Warm regards, > Joan Sali > Conference Manager > INFOSEC2017 > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Curious Marc > wrote: > > > It's interesting. It's the new thing. I get spammed by these at work, > > maybe several a month now. It's more sophisticated than usual: they take > > the same name as legit conferences but with a very slight variation, copy > > or invent badges and affiliations, and are (supposedly) in unusual, > remote, > > but attractive places. Web sites are well done at first glance, although > it > > doesn't take long to figure they are slightly off in every respect, and > > always in the same format. Of course you need to pay to register, which > > will go straight to Joan who works for the famous organization @ > gmail.com. > > Jay can you take down the impostor please. > > > > And by the way, don't forget, I am organizing an IEEE Conference on > Upside > > Down Pancakes in Peru in 2018. I haven't had the time to make the website > > yet but you can already send your money to me. I am not affiliated with > > Joan but my email ends with @gmail.com just the same, so you are in good > > hands. > > > > Marc > > > > > On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Joan Sali wrote: > > > > > > In cooperation with Faculty of Management, Comenius University in > > > Bratislava, Slovakia, SDIWC is inviting everyone to attend and > > participate > > > in The Third International Conference on Information Security and Cyber > > > Forensics (INFOSEC2017) > > > < > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > > > that > > > will be held on June 29-July 1, 2017. The event will be held over three > > > days, with presentations delivered by researchers from the > international > > > community, including presentations from keynote speakers and > > > state-of-the-art lectures. > > > > > > All registered papers will be published in SDIWC Digital Library, and > in > > > the proceedings of the conference. > > > > > > The conference welcomes papers on (but not limited to) the research > > topics > > > posted below. > > > > > > Thank you so much and See you in the conference. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Joan Sali > > > Conference Manager > > > INFOSEC2017 > > > < > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > > > > > > ---------IMPORTANT INFORMATION--------- > > > > > > > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > Venue: Faculty of Management, Comenius University in Bratislava, > > Slovakia > > > Date: June 29-July 1, 2017 > > > Contact email: infosec17 at sdiwc.net > > > > > > Submission Deadline Open from now until May 01, 2017 > > > Notification of Acceptance May 20, 2017 or 4-7 weeks from the > submission > > > date > > > Camera Ready Submission Open from now until May 28, 2017 > > > Registration Deadline Open from now until May 28, 2017 > > > Conference Dates June 29-July 1, 2017 > > > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 07:40:41 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 00:40:41 +1200 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 12:33 AM, Joan Sali wrote: > Hey there Curios Marc, > For sure we are on the same boat, promoting events, conferences and you > mentioned IEEE. Care to check the list of organizers with the privilege of > using this badge and I assure you 100%, SDIWC.NET is in the list. WE are > not SPAMMERS okay? > > If you have a format that would instantly tell the readers that a promotion > is a fraud or worthy to attend, then please share it. Otherwise, you are > just using your personal judgment which is unfair. > > Do you have proof that I am pocketing the required fees? If none, please > refrain from assuming. This is scary. No wonder this world is in chaos > because of people like you. Why not ask first then gather evidences before > judging? > > Again, I am not forcing you to believe me or the event I am promoting. Just > check the site, call the speakers, any one in the program committee or one, > two or all the reviewers. I'll tell you, you'll eat your words in a > heartbeat. > > Too high level sarcasm. Thank you anyway for reading. > > Warm regards, > Joan Sali > Conference Manager > INFOSEC2017 > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ 'Joan' Get a horse. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 07:42:34 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 20:42:34 +0800 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good day Wiliam, Check our office then to justify your curiosity. I'm thinking this is a general discussion. From the word alone, it is general. I am not posting a hate or discriminating event. So please be fair in your judgment. Best regards, Joan Sali, Conference Manager INFOSEC2017 http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 8:37 PM, william degnan wrote: > I also got hit with this from my U of Delaware address. Whatever your > justification, your message is off topic. The moderator should block > these. > b > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Joan Sali wrote: > > > Hey there Curios Marc, > > For sure we are on the same boat, promoting events, conferences and you > > mentioned IEEE. Care to check the list of organizers with the privilege > of > > using this badge and I assure you 100%, SDIWC.NET is in the list. WE are > > not SPAMMERS okay? > > > > If you have a format that would instantly tell the readers that a > promotion > > is a fraud or worthy to attend, then please share it. Otherwise, you are > > just using your personal judgment which is unfair. > > > > Do you have proof that I am pocketing the required fees? If none, please > > refrain from assuming. This is scary. No wonder this world is in chaos > > because of people like you. Why not ask first then gather evidences > before > > judging? > > > > Again, I am not forcing you to believe me or the event I am promoting. > Just > > check the site, call the speakers, any one in the program committee or > one, > > two or all the reviewers. I'll tell you, you'll eat your words in a > > heartbeat. > > > > Too high level sarcasm. Thank you anyway for reading. > > > > Warm regards, > > Joan Sali > > Conference Manager > > INFOSEC2017 > > > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Curious Marc > > wrote: > > > > > It's interesting. It's the new thing. I get spammed by these at work, > > > maybe several a month now. It's more sophisticated than usual: they > take > > > the same name as legit conferences but with a very slight variation, > copy > > > or invent badges and affiliations, and are (supposedly) in unusual, > > remote, > > > but attractive places. Web sites are well done at first glance, > although > > it > > > doesn't take long to figure they are slightly off in every respect, and > > > always in the same format. Of course you need to pay to register, which > > > will go straight to Joan who works for the famous organization @ > > gmail.com. > > > Jay can you take down the impostor please. > > > > > > And by the way, don't forget, I am organizing an IEEE Conference on > > Upside > > > Down Pancakes in Peru in 2018. I haven't had the time to make the > website > > > yet but you can already send your money to me. I am not affiliated with > > > Joan but my email ends with @gmail.com just the same, so you are in > good > > > hands. > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Joan Sali wrote: > > > > > > > > In cooperation with Faculty of Management, Comenius University in > > > > Bratislava, Slovakia, SDIWC is inviting everyone to attend and > > > participate > > > > in The Third International Conference on Information Security and > Cyber > > > > Forensics (INFOSEC2017) > > > > < > > > > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > > > > > that > > > > will be held on June 29-July 1, 2017. The event will be held over > three > > > > days, with presentations delivered by researchers from the > > international > > > > community, including presentations from keynote speakers and > > > > state-of-the-art lectures. > > > > > > > > All registered papers will be published in SDIWC Digital Library, and > > in > > > > the proceedings of the conference. > > > > > > > > The conference welcomes papers on (but not limited to) the research > > > topics > > > > posted below. > > > > > > > > Thank you so much and See you in the conference. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Joan Sali > > > > Conference Manager > > > > INFOSEC2017 > > > > < > > > > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------IMPORTANT INFORMATION--------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > > > Venue: Faculty of Management, Comenius University in Bratislava, > > > Slovakia > > > > Date: June 29-July 1, 2017 > > > > Contact email: infosec17 at sdiwc.net > > > > > > > > Submission Deadline Open from now until May 01, 2017 > > > > Notification of Acceptance May 20, 2017 or 4-7 weeks from the > > submission > > > > date > > > > Camera Ready Submission Open from now until May 28, 2017 > > > > Registration Deadline Open from now until May 28, 2017 > > > > Conference Dates June 29-July 1, 2017 > > > > > > > > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 10 07:48:18 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:48:18 +0100 Subject: The life of Plastics Message-ID: <501fb1ae-c7e3-3c6e-776b-de2fd0cc71eb@btinternet.com> I just took my copy of RT11 mini reference (1985) off the shelf and the front cover fell off. Not through wear and tear but brittleness. I wonder what else is going to fall apart in the plastics line. Oh well at least I have the finest book cover repair material known to man to hand. What is it? Green packing tape! Rod From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 07:49:47 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 20:49:47 +0800 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi there Mike, I love this note under your name 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Just curious why you're treating me like a garbage. :( Regards, Joan Sali Conference Manager INFOSEC2017 On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 8:40 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 12:33 AM, Joan Sali wrote: > > Hey there Curios Marc, > > For sure we are on the same boat, promoting events, conferences and you > > mentioned IEEE. Care to check the list of organizers with the privilege > of > > using this badge and I assure you 100%, SDIWC.NET is in the list. WE are > > not SPAMMERS okay? > > > > If you have a format that would instantly tell the readers that a > promotion > > is a fraud or worthy to attend, then please share it. Otherwise, you are > > just using your personal judgment which is unfair. > > > > Do you have proof that I am pocketing the required fees? If none, please > > refrain from assuming. This is scary. No wonder this world is in chaos > > because of people like you. Why not ask first then gather evidences > before > > judging? > > > > Again, I am not forcing you to believe me or the event I am promoting. > Just > > check the site, call the speakers, any one in the program committee or > one, > > two or all the reviewers. I'll tell you, you'll eat your words in a > > heartbeat. > > > > Too high level sarcasm. Thank you anyway for reading. > > > > Warm regards, > > Joan Sali > > Conference Manager > > INFOSEC2017 > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/3rd-international-conference-information-security-cyber-forensics/ > > 'Joan' > > Get a horse. > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From radiotest at juno.com Fri Jun 10 07:52:35 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:52:35 -0400 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160610084852.03ec1e90@juno.com> At 08:42 AM 6/10/2016, Joan Sali wrote: >I'm thinking this is a general discussion. This is a general discussion about classic computers. Will your conference address security needs of , say, CP/M computers of the 1980s, minicomputers of the 1970s, or mainframe computers of the 1960s? I suspect not, and if not the topic does not belong here and is therefore regarded by many of us as spam. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 08:03:29 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:03:29 -0400 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160610084852.03ec1e90@juno.com> References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160610084852.03ec1e90@juno.com> Message-ID: Joan or whomever you really are, You are an @ss. Go away. I hope that's clear. Everyone else, Stop replying, you're only helping to publicize Joan or BOT, or ??. If you must respond to the baited replies from "Joan" at least remove the body of the original text to keep the OP links out of the archives. Watch what happens next. ... wait for it...wait for it... B From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 08:05:49 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:05:49 +0800 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160610084852.03ec1e90@juno.com> References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160610084852.03ec1e90@juno.com> Message-ID: Hi Dale, Appreciate your thoughts. :) The conference that I promote embraces the world of technology, therefore, all aspects of computers, their components and everything in the field of technology is covered. The difference is, various topics are presented by scholars, computer enthusiasts, students, faculties and the like in a conference setting. I am inviting every technology lover members here, that's why I'm posting the event. My apology if you find it off. My intention is not to replace your set of general rules, but rather, to invite. Again, apologies. Joan Sali Conference Manager sdiwc.net infosec2017 On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 08:42 AM 6/10/2016, Joan Sali wrote: > > >I'm thinking this is a general discussion. > > This is a general discussion about classic computers. Will your conference > address security needs of , say, CP/M computers of the 1980s, minicomputers > of the 1970s, or mainframe computers of the 1960s? I suspect not, and if > not the topic does not belong here and is therefore regarded by many of us > as spam. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 10 08:24:42 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 06:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Joan Sali wrote: > Hi there Mike, > I love this note under your name > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Just curious why you're treating me like a garbage. :( > So let me see if I have this right.... You post to a group of classic computer enthusiasts about a subject that isn't at all applicable to the topic at hand and then get butthurt over being called on it? Spammer, scammer, or neither, it's pretty damn obvious that you're not welcome here. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 08:32:17 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:32:17 +0800 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160610084852.03ec1e90@juno.com> Message-ID: Hi William, My apology but you are promoting hatred. List my fault but please without using foul words. I thought it's not allowed here, why slam it on my face? Again, I am Joan Sali, one of the conference managers of sdiwc.net. I'm an IT professional, doing promotion as a sideline. I am real, okay? Please check sdiwc.net and see the list of international conferences that we organize. Hope this is enough to clear things up. On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 9:03 PM, william degnan wrote: > Joan or whomever you really are, > You are an @ss. Go away. I hope that's clear. > > Everyone else, > Stop replying, you're only helping to publicize Joan or BOT, or ??. If you > must respond to the baited replies from "Joan" at least remove the body of > the original text to keep the OP links out of the archives. > > Watch what happens next. ... wait for it...wait for it... > > B > From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 08:40:45 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:40:45 +0800 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, No need to push me out. I don't want to be part of a group that promotes hatred and glorifies verbal and written lashing. Before I go, please stop using foul words, it warps your values and orientation. Warm regards, Joan Sali Conference Manager On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 9:24 PM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Joan Sali wrote: > > Hi there Mike, >> I love this note under your name >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Just curious why you're treating me like a garbage. :( >> >> So let me see if I have this right.... > > You post to a group of classic computer enthusiasts about a subject that > isn't at all applicable to the topic at hand and then get butthurt over > being called on it? > > Spammer, scammer, or neither, it's pretty damn obvious that you're not > welcome here. > > Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 08:45:52 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 15:45:52 +0200 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On 8 June 2016 at 15:50, Fred Cisin wrote: > Easy enough to have missed their short-term domination of the market if you > happened to have been on holiday. I was still at university when the 80386, the PS/2 range and MS-DOS 3.3 were released. I was the only person I knew in my year with their own computer -- a 48K ZX Spectrum, with Interface 1 and a microdrive, an Alphacom 32 printer (a narrow-strip thermal printer; it took till rolls) and an old portable B&W TV as its display. In my last year, I upgraded to a Spectrum 128, a DISCiPLE disk interface plus a single DSDD 80t 5.25" floppy drive (780K per disk with MGT's GDOS) and a 9-pin dot-matrix printer (a Panasonic KX-P 1081). I also used the university's VAXcluster (2 x VAX 11/780). In a corner of a side room in the computer centre, there was a single IBM PC, with MDA, greenscreen, a single 5.25" floppy and a hard disk. (So I presume a PC-XT but I don't know.) Nobody much ever used it. It was the slowest computer in the place, unless the VAXen were very heavily loaded, and even then, it couldn't print and wasn't attached to the VAX as a terminal so there was no way to get anything on or off it. I discovered it had the Infocom Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy game on it, and learned enough DOS to play that. CD \HITCH HITCH A couple of years later, that got me a job in tech support. Yes, really. So, I missed the news because: [a] I wasn't in work yet [b] I used "real computers" at Uni, not PCs [c] ordinary Brits couldn't afford PCs; I had a Spectrum, bought piecemeal, that cost around $500 or so for the whole system. By the time I started work and so started using PCs, DOS 3.3 was current and PS/2s were proliferating. I apologise for my ignorance. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jason at textfiles.com Fri Jun 10 09:06:14 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:06:14 -0400 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: Now I want to go. On Jun 10, 2016 22:41, "Joan Sali" wrote: > Hi Mike, > No need to push me out. I don't want to be part of a group that promotes > hatred and glorifies verbal and written lashing. Before I go, please stop > using foul words, it warps your values and orientation. > > Warm regards, > Joan Sali > Conference Manager > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 9:24 PM, geneb wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Joan Sali wrote: > > > > Hi there Mike, > >> I love this note under your name > >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > >> Just curious why you're treating me like a garbage. :( > >> > >> So let me see if I have this right.... > > > > You post to a group of classic computer enthusiasts about a subject that > > isn't at all applicable to the topic at hand and then get butthurt over > > being called on it? > > > > Spammer, scammer, or neither, it's pretty damn obvious that you're not > > welcome here. > > > > Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. > > > > g. > > > > -- > > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Fri Jun 10 09:13:46 2016 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:13:46 -0700 Subject: LASM compatible cross assembler? In-Reply-To: References: <211A408B-7B1E-4E5F-A48E-2F0AE1726B64@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <6DB0F07C-F3B1-4A7A-856E-6EAE6CA87F08@fozztexx.com> On Jun 10, 2016, at 4:47 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > Is LASM-TDL compatible with LASM? There's source for the former. No, it's a different animal. It uses TDL syntax and isn't entirely LASM compatible and isn't able to assemble Kermit. The lasm.doc file included claims that it's a modified version of LASM3 by Steve Schlaifer, which also isn't able to assemble Kermit. It looks like there may have been a LASM2 by Pete Mack but I haven't found it. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Jun 10 09:22:44 2016 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:22:44 -0400 Subject: FS: (PURGE) all sorts of classic computer parts, computers, networking, ink/toner, etc In-Reply-To: <1CAC2496-C6F4-475F-88F6-15028046EEF5@gmail.com> References: <1CAC2496-C6F4-475F-88F6-15028046EEF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75fb82e55e3c36fb2b21c93515615f46@localhost> On 2016-06-07 13:54, Austin Pass wrote: >> On 7 Jun 2016, at 18:35, rescue wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I am looking to clean out some of my stuff. I'm 'buried' in it. >> > >> Qty 4 Canon 24 Color >> > > Where are you located? > > -Austin. I'm in Sharon, MA zip 02067 -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Jun 10 09:23:33 2016 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:23:33 -0400 Subject: FS: (PURGE) all sorts of classic computer parts, computers, networking, ink/toner, etc In-Reply-To: <1CAC2496-C6F4-475F-88F6-15028046EEF5@gmail.com> References: <1CAC2496-C6F4-475F-88F6-15028046EEF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <333db39cda7d199a262ec63a6f4004f5@localhost> Verry sorry everyone.... didn't realize that the reply's were going to the list... apologies for the noise.... -- Curt On 2016-06-07 13:54, Austin Pass wrote: >> On 7 Jun 2016, at 18:35, rescue wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I am looking to clean out some of my stuff. I'm 'buried' in it. >> > >> Qty 4 Canon 24 Color >> > > Where are you located? > > -Austin. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jun 10 09:46:51 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:46:51 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 Message-ID: Pictures or it didn'didn't happen ;) -Ali -------- Original message -------- From: William Donzelli Date: 6/9/2016 10:39 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: IBM 3511 So today I picked up something I had never seen before - an IBM 3511. This is a large tower expansion chassis for the PS/2 line. It looks very straightforward - but can any of you PS/2 fans comment on this? Was it an unsuccessful product? Low demand item? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 10:03:08 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 11:03:08 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It would have to be ASCII art for this list. -- Will On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Ali wrote: > Pictures or it didn'didn't happen ;) > -Ali > > -------- Original message -------- > From: William Donzelli > Date: 6/9/2016 10:39 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: IBM 3511 > > So today I picked up something I had never seen before - an IBM 3511. > This is a large tower expansion chassis for the PS/2 line. It looks > very straightforward - but can any of you PS/2 fans comment on this? > Was it an unsuccessful product? Low demand item? > > -- > Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 10:08:25 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 11:08:25 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually...hmmm...maybe a new Youtube video is in order. I have a van load of interesting IBM bits that I just acquired... -- Will (uniservo on Youtube) On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Ali wrote: > Pictures or it didn'didn't happen ;) > -Ali > > -------- Original message -------- > From: William Donzelli > Date: 6/9/2016 10:39 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: IBM 3511 > > So today I picked up something I had never seen before - an IBM 3511. > This is a large tower expansion chassis for the PS/2 line. It looks > very straightforward - but can any of you PS/2 fans comment on this? > Was it an unsuccessful product? Low demand item? > > -- > Will From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 10:19:51 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 17:19:51 +0200 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 June 2016 at 16:46, Ali wrote: > Pictures or it didn'didn't happen ;) > -Ali A bit of Googling found this page: http://ps-2.kev009.com/madmax/madmax/profile0.htm ... with the only pics of a 3511 (2 of 'em, in fact) I came across. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 10:28:19 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 11:28:19 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A bit of Googling found this page: > > http://ps-2.kev009.com/madmax/madmax/profile0.htm > > ... with the only pics of a 3511 (2 of 'em, in fact) I came across. That Italian site has scans from the original IBM promo material (with the smaller 3510). Anyway, it seems that these 3511s are not all that common... -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 10:37:18 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 17:37:18 +0200 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 June 2016 at 17:28, William Donzelli wrote: > That Italian site has scans from the original IBM promo material (with > the smaller 3510). Um. Which Italian site was that? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 10:41:03 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 11:41:03 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.1000bit.it -- Will On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 June 2016 at 17:28, William Donzelli wrote: >> That Italian site has scans from the original IBM promo material (with >> the smaller 3510). > > > Um. Which Italian site was that? > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jun 10 10:46:57 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:46:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004201d1c32f$53bcdae0$fb3690a0$@net> > It would have to be ASCII art for this list. > Could always use a service and post a link.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 10 10:50:30 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: <5750BE3E.1000207@sydex.com> <57544305.60800@sydex.com> <9B8565E6-817F-48F1-9041-86178E95639E@typewritten.org> Message-ID: [720K] >> Easy enough to have missed their short-term domination of the market if you >> happened to have been on holiday. On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > By the time I started work and so started using PCs, DOS 3.3 was > current and PS/2s were proliferating. > I apologise for my ignorance. What's to apologize for? Missing out on the short-lived reign of 720K was not hard to do. To me, being in college was a lot like being on holiday. My generation was part of the transition from "wine, women, and song" over to "drugs, sex, and rock&roll". We knew that personal computers would be coming soon, but they weren't yet available. We had boxes of cards, and occasional tapes, instead of floppy disks. The remark about missing it if on holiday is a "humorous" idiom. The time of the 720K 3.5" was short enough in IBM, that you could almost have missed it if you slept late that day :-) I was involved in disk format conversion, so I was one of the few people to whom it was important. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jun 10 10:56:20 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:56:20 -0700 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004901d1c330$a22cb320$e6861960$@net> > A bit of Googling found this page: > > http://ps-2.kev009.com/madmax/madmax/profile0.htm > > ... with the only pics of a 3511 (2 of 'em, in fact) I came across. I bow to your googlefu. I did not find that picture... Thanks! -Ali From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 11:08:51 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 18:08:51 +0200 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Fixing the top-posting] >>> On 10 June 2016 at 17:28, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>> That Italian site has scans from the original IBM promo material (with >>> the smaller 3510). >>On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> Um. Which Italian site was that? > On 10 June 2016 at 17:41, William Donzelli wrote: > > http://www.1000bit.it Er, OK. I do not recall that being mentioned in this thread before. I tried its search box and got 0 hits for "3511" or "3510". -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 11:14:01 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:14:01 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [mid posting now] On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > [Fixing the top-posting] > >>>> On 10 June 2016 at 17:28, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> >>>> That Italian site has scans from the original IBM promo material (with >>>> the smaller 3510). > >>>On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> Um. Which Italian site was that? > >> On 10 June 2016 at 17:41, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> http://www.1000bit.it > > Er, OK. I do not recall that being mentioned in this thread before. Mark mentioned the brochure - I assume he saw the one on 1000bit. -- Will > > I tried its search box and got 0 hits for "3511" or "3510". > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 10 11:26:47 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:26:47 -0700 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 10, 2016, at 09:14, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Mark mentioned the brochure - I assume he saw the one on 1000bit. Yes. I just googled "ibm 3511", and it came up at around hit number 5 for me. It was a regular google search; an image search wasn't nearly as helpful. http://www.1000bit.it/ad/bro/ibm/IBM-PS2-351x-StorageOption.pdf The power panel on my PS/2 85 is mirrored vs. the 3511's, with the power button on the left and the display filler panel on the right. The cutout for the serial number label is still in the same spot on the left: https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/691171883236995072 -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 06:56:19 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:56:19 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS (Don North) Message-ID: > > From: Don North > Subject: Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS > > Actually the page listed below is a big out of date with respect to some > M9312 > images (it is not an up to date mirror). > The up to date page is at: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/ > > -- > Don North > AK6DN > RCS/RI has some PDP-11/34 systems that booted, I think using DDCMP, via a COAX interface from a PDP-10 KL10. I think that it took four ROMs to hold the boot loader. You might not have a copy of those ROMs. -- Michael Thompson From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 07:24:54 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:24:54 -0400 Subject: Interlan DEC Ethernet boards Message-ID: Other threads about DEC and Ethernet got me thinking....I have a couple of QBUS LSI Internal BD-NI2010A Ethernet boards. Anyone using these to connect to an Ethernet network on their system? It appears the ethernet address # is burned/hard wired into the card. Mine come from the University of Delaware. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Jun 10 13:55:16 2016 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 11:55:16 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS (Don North) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498c12dd-437a-31ce-0a04-4602e50f6f55@mindspring.com> On 6/10/2016 4:56 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> From: Don North >> Subject: Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS >> >> Actually the page listed below is a big out of date with respect to some >> M9312 >> images (it is not an up to date mirror). >> The up to date page is at: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/ >> >> -- >> Don North >> AK6DN >> > RCS/RI has some PDP-11/34 systems that booted, I think using DDCMP, via a > COAX interface from a PDP-10 KL10. I think that it took four ROMs to hold > the boot loader. You might not have a copy of those ROMs. > There is a three PROM set 23-86[234]A9 for device code XM which is DDCMP boot over a DMC11/DMR11. Those PROMs are available and on my web page. A two PROM set 23-E3[23]A9 has been found for etherNet DELUA/DEUNA boot (device code XE?) but it has not been reverse engineered. Hopefully soon the device patterns will be read and forwarded to me for processing. I am not aware of the four PROM set you mention, but it could certainly be a custom one for that application. (XM) DECnet DDCMP DMC11/DMR11 23-862A9 0x0625 SRC LST (1,2) 23-863A9 0x063F SRC LST 23-864A9 0x0551 SRC LST -- Don North AK6DN From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jun 10 14:49:19 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:49:19 -0700 Subject: Unknown oldie w/8" floppy drives in Cheyenne Wyoming auction Message-ID: http://nicodemusauctions.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_0238.jpg http://nicodemusauctions.com/event/houge-electric-estate-auction/ Other then getting the notice I have no connection From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 15:59:03 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:59:03 -0700 Subject: Unknown oldie w/8" floppy drives in Cheyenne Wyoming auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > http://nicodemusauctions.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_0238.jpg > > http://nicodemusauctions.com/event/houge-electric-estate-auction/ > > Other then getting the notice I have no connection > Looks like OSI hardware to me: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/photos.asp?t=1&c=47&st=1$ - Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 16:03:15 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 15:03:15 -0600 Subject: Unknown oldie w/8" floppy drives in Cheyenne Wyoming auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That looks like an Ohio Scientific C3-B with two 74MB hard drives. I'd really like to get that, and I'm within reasonable distance, but I don't think I'll be able to do it. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 16:14:28 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 17:14:28 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/780 Board Set on eBait In-Reply-To: <20160610100246.23BD818C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160610100246.23BD818C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Well I am still holding out hope to find a vax 780 and get it running. I did not think i would ever be able to find a pdp 11 , but one crossed my path and i managed to pick it up. Perhaps one will still show up around here somewhere. In the meantime ive been trying to stockpile parts for the one day i do manage to find one and it need a board. On Jun 10, 2016 6:03 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > From: Devin Davison > > > It looked like a good batch of boards and i was holding out on > finding > > a machine. > > I hope that "a machine" wasn't 'an empty machine to plug them into' - > because > AFAICT the chances are that happening are basically zero. (People seem to > save either i) complete machines, or ii) just the boards - apparently not > realizing that without the backplane, etc, the boards are only useful as > spares.) > > > Any good place to get a 11/780 aside from watching the local scrap > > centers with my fingers crossed one will be there? > > For some reasons, /780's seem to be pretty rare. I suspect it's a case of > 'they were mostly all scrapped long ago in favour of later models which > were > faster and smaller' (we see the same thing in other lines). > > > Don't get me wrong, I truly do fervently hope that you do find one somehow, > but one has to be realistic, I think. (I'd love to have an RF11, but I'm > pretty sure they almost all went to the big scrap-heap in the sky many > moons > ago; so I'm not holding on, waiting for one to appear - rather, I'm getting > on with the stuff that _is_ still here.) Sorry to be such a downer... :-( > > Noel > From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Jun 10 18:24:04 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 23:24:04 +0000 Subject: Anyone have MULTOS/8 running on SimH? Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997E83@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> I'm investigating getting MULTOS/8 running on the 8/e here at the museum and I thought I'd start by getting acquainted with it on SIMH. I've picked up the disk pack from Dave Gesswein's site here: https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/multos8.rk05;sort=name and the manual here: http://www.pdp8.net/os/multos8/ MULTOS as currently configured on the RK05 image appears to be set up for two terminals and everything listed in BUILD looks to agree with respect to the SimH hardware configuration. I set up a password file per the instructions, and after I set the DATE, I do an: .R MULTOS And am greeted with: HELLO ! THIS IS THE MULTOS/8 MULTI-USER OS/8 TIMESHARING SYSTEM CREATED BY COMPUTER METHODS 7822 OAKLEDGE ROAD SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 84121, USA PHONE 801-942-8000 PLEASE INPUT TIME IN 24-HOUR FORMAT (E.G. 0925 FOR 9:25 AM AND 1935 FOR 7:35 PM): 1601 THANK YOU ! THE SYSTEM IS NOW TIMESHARING TYPE CONTROL/H TO LOG ON. At this point, the system becomes unresponsive; CTRL-H appears to have no effect. AC and MQ seem to be incrementing over time as the docs describe. I've poked around and in PARAM.PG, the address of TTY #2 is set to 32 (VT78?), rather than the 40 I'd expect. I changed this and reassembled the JOBS device handler, and then used BUILD to rebuild the system using it. I'm still getting the same behavior, however... I have a bit of experience with OS/8 (but I'm not an expert) and nearly zero experience with MULTOS, so before I start debugging in SimH I thought I'd check to see that I'm not doing anything intensely stupid here... Thanks! Josh From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 18:40:31 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:40:31 -0700 Subject: Unknown oldie w/8" floppy drives in Cheyenne Wyoming auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice tube tester in there too! Marc > On Jun 10, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > http://nicodemusauctions.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_0238.jpg > > http://nicodemusauctions.com/event/houge-electric-estate-auction/ > > Other then getting the notice I have no connection From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 18:51:56 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:51:56 -0700 Subject: Using the simh LGP-30 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. Well done, and superbly written blog entries. Talk about a lovely and totally original replica project! I can feel the 1950's vibes emanating from the little art deco front panel. We have one of these on display at the CHM. Once you get yours going, it would be cool if you came to demonstrate next to the real thing and teach us all about it! Marc > On Jun 9, 2016, at 4:04 PM, Oscar Vermeulen wrote: > > Some time ago, there were two posts asking how to operate the simh LGP-30 emulator. It is not exactly obvious from the rudimentary manual, and it seems nobody had figured it out completely. I am slightly obsessed with this machine at the moment (it happens), so here is a how-to on operating the emulator and running the tape library of Christian Corti on it - in the hope it's of use to others looking for clues: > > > http://obsolescenceguaranteed.blogspot.ch/2016/06/using-simh-lgp-30-emulator.html > > > Corti's LGP-30 emulator, by the way, gives a much better feel for the machine. But simh source is available, which I needed because I'm making a replica hardware front panel for the machine. > > > Regards, > > Oscar. > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 19:26:35 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 17:26:35 -0700 Subject: IO Selectric In-Reply-To: <035001d1c309$d4c5f480$7e51dd80$@gmail.com> References: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> <5758932C.10004@sydex.com> <01f601d1c225$f054c1c0$d0fe4540$@gmail.com> <000901d1c2e7$02e6f760$08b4e620$@gmail.com> <035001d1c309$d4c5f480$7e51dd80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002501d1c377$eadbc150$c09343f0$@gmail.com> Here is the link to my Selectric II documentation: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k8l6sumb5cjrp7a/AADQ3SgnWqtqmw8Jo6yHV84ea?dl=0 Some of the files are still syncing, should be done soon. When it's all done you should have 4 manuals. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 4:19 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: IO Selectric Thanks Marc Sounds Great. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: 10 June 2016 08:09 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: IO Selectric > > Dave, > The best manual I have has 54 pages of visual diagrams for adjusting > the Selectric II, which should be mechanically similar to yours, save > the added > actuators. With about 7 adjustments depicted per page. Really. That's > no trivial > piece of mechanical machinery, it's up there with some of the most > complex mechanical calculators I have. But they are very well > documented (unlike said > mechanical calculators). I'm in the process of uploading a folder with > all the > Selectric II manuals I have accumulated to my public Dropbox, > including that > most useful "visual" guide. Once it's up through my minuscule upload > bandwidth I'll post a link. > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Wade > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2016 1:07 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: IO Selectric > > Thanks Chuck, > > I should have got those before as I have been a member on there for > ages, just > couldn't remember they were there. The stuff in mine looks very > similar to the > Louis Sanders article I have, so I am sure its from the same article. > > I now need to read the theory and clean, adjust and lubricate. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Chuck Guzis > > Sent: 08 June 2016 22:51 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: IO Selectric > > > > I just did a quick check--the Yahoo golfballtypewritershop group > > does have > the > > Louis Sander 1983 article from Micro magazine about converting an > > I/O selectric for general computer use. > > > > There's also a two parter on the I/O Selectric theory of operation. > > > > You should have enough there to keep you busy. > > > > --Chuck > > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jun 10 20:19:18 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:19:18 -0400 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay Message-ID: Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... -Ali From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 20:24:26 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:24:26 -0400 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They are little LED alphanumeric displays. Probably programmable. Cool things, actually. -- Will On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Ali wrote: > Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 > Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... > -Ali > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 10 20:24:36 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 18:24:36 -0700 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jun-10, at 6:19 PM, Ali wrote: > Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 > Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... > -Ali Those are 4-digit 14-segment LED displays. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 20:34:33 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:34:33 -0400 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay References: Message-ID: Look like 4x16 segment LED displays to me. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ali" To: "CCTalk Mailing List" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:19 PM Subject: Strange ICS on eBay > Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 > Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... > -Ali > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 10 20:39:25 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 18:39:25 -0700 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay In-Reply-To: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> References: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <65597624-B436-46A8-AE75-9DFB11F09BF4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jun-10, at 6:24 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Jun-10, at 6:19 PM, Ali wrote: >> Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 >> Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... >> -Ali > > Those are 4-digit 14-segment LED displays. Siemens DL3416 Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkGyWIuCIo Looks like they may have the decoder built into them. And 16-segment as mike says. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 20:40:45 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:40:45 -0400 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay References: Message-ID: <39C19ADE8DA24B8D889A8235543D691D@310e2> They look like DL1416s but are not high enough and have 22 pins vs. 20: http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/45154/SIEMENS/DL1416B.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen-segment_display m ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Strange ICS on eBay > They are little LED alphanumeric displays. Probably programmable. Cool > things, actually. > > -- > Will > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Ali wrote: >> Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 >> Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... >> -Ali >> From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 20:51:52 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:51:52 -0400 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay References: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> <65597624-B436-46A8-AE75-9DFB11F09BF4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:39 PM Subject: Re: Strange ICS on eBay On 2016-Jun-10, at 6:24 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Jun-10, at 6:19 PM, Ali wrote: >> Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 >> Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... >> -Ali > > Those are 4-digit 14-segment LED displays. Siemens DL3416 Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkGyWIuCIo Looks like they may have the decoder built into them. And 16-segment as mike says. =============== Yup, that's what they are, similar to the DL1416s used in the AIM65 and elsewhere. A little more intelligent than just decoders & drivers; send it a 2 bit address and a 7 bit character and it'll store and display it (them) until cleared or replaced, easily cascaded for longer length. m From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 10 20:51:25 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 18:51:25 -0700 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay In-Reply-To: <39C19ADE8DA24B8D889A8235543D691D@310e2> References: <39C19ADE8DA24B8D889A8235543D691D@310e2> Message-ID: <005A1BDC-8B82-4962-B457-DAE205B7E5A1@cs.ubc.ca> DL 3416 rather than 1416. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dlmain/Datasheets-8/DSA-153936.pdf You can barely make out : DL 3416 SIEMENS yymm on the side of the units in one pic. yymm looks to be 9328. On 2016-Jun-10, at 6:40 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > They look like DL1416s but are not high enough and have 22 pins vs. 20: > http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/45154/SIEMENS/DL1416B.html > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen-segment_display > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Donzelli" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:24 PM > Subject: Re: Strange ICS on eBay > > >> They are little LED alphanumeric displays. Probably programmable. Cool >> things, actually. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Ali wrote: >>> Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 >>> Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... >>> -Ali >>> From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 21:06:20 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 19:06:20 -0700 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay In-Reply-To: <65597624-B436-46A8-AE75-9DFB11F09BF4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> <65597624-B436-46A8-AE75-9DFB11F09BF4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Siemens DL3416 > > Here you go: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkGyWIuCIo > > Looks like they may have the decoder built into them. > And 16-segment as mike says. > I have a little breadboard wired up with an HP DL1414 and an AT90S1200 that does almost exactly the same thing. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 21:17:21 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 22:17:21 -0400 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay References: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> <65597624-B436-46A8-AE75-9DFB11F09BF4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <9D6E683ED3FC4E5589331712BEBD3AC8@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 10:06 PM Subject: Re: Strange ICS on eBay > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> Siemens DL3416 >> >> Here you go: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkGyWIuCIo >> >> Looks like they may have the decoder built into them. >> And 16-segment as mike says. >> > > I have a little breadboard wired up with an HP DL1414 and an AT90S1200 > that does almost exactly the same thing. Very similar, but no cursor or discrete addressing mode. I've got some AIM65s that can also do almost exactly the same thing ;-) m From pdaguytom at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 21:23:48 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:23:48 -0500 Subject: Decmate II motherbord Message-ID: Looking for a Decmate II motherboard. Doesn't need to have the CPU. Thanks, Tom From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Jun 10 22:18:29 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 03:18:29 +0000 Subject: Anyone have MULTOS/8 running on SimH? In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997E83@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997E83@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997EF0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> To follow up to my own post; I tried it again at home this evening, on my Mac. And it works perfectly. My machine at work is a Windows box; I'm guessing there's something odd with the keyboard handling for the Ctrl-H sequence on SIMH Windows but that's mere speculation at this point... So, problem solved... kind of. - Josh ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Josh Dersch [JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org] Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 4:24 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Anyone have MULTOS/8 running on SimH? I'm investigating getting MULTOS/8 running on the 8/e here at the museum and I thought I'd start by getting acquainted with it on SIMH. I've picked up the disk pack from Dave Gesswein's site here: https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/multos8.rk05;sort=name and the manual here: http://www.pdp8.net/os/multos8/ MULTOS as currently configured on the RK05 image appears to be set up for two terminals and everything listed in BUILD looks to agree with respect to the SimH hardware configuration. I set up a password file per the instructions, and after I set the DATE, I do an: .R MULTOS And am greeted with: HELLO ! THIS IS THE MULTOS/8 MULTI-USER OS/8 TIMESHARING SYSTEM CREATED BY COMPUTER METHODS 7822 OAKLEDGE ROAD SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 84121, USA PHONE 801-942-8000 PLEASE INPUT TIME IN 24-HOUR FORMAT (E.G. 0925 FOR 9:25 AM AND 1935 FOR 7:35 PM): 1601 THANK YOU ! THE SYSTEM IS NOW TIMESHARING TYPE CONTROL/H TO LOG ON. At this point, the system becomes unresponsive; CTRL-H appears to have no effect. AC and MQ seem to be incrementing over time as the docs describe. I've poked around and in PARAM.PG, the address of TTY #2 is set to 32 (VT78?), rather than the 40 I'd expect. I changed this and reassembled the JOBS device handler, and then used BUILD to rebuild the system using it. I'm still getting the same behavior, however... I have a bit of experience with OS/8 (but I'm not an expert) and nearly zero experience with MULTOS, so before I start debugging in SimH I thought I'd check to see that I'm not doing anything intensely stupid here... Thanks! Josh From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 23:26:36 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:26:36 -0700 Subject: Attend and Participate Information Security and Cyber Forensics (INFOSEC2017) In-Reply-To: References: <5EB8FBE4-626C-4E57-8A6D-EF351E2EA782@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002a01d1c399$71d32290$557967b0$@gmail.com> http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Teaching/learning/junk.conferences.html (specifically, The Society of Digital Information and Wireless Communications (SDIWC) is in the list of a fake or bogus scientific publications) http://bogus-conferences.blogspot.com/2012/11/junk-fake-and-bogus-conferences-by.html -----Original Message----- On Jun 10, 2016 22:41, "Joan Sali" wrote: > Hi Mike, > No need to push me out. I don't want to be part of a group that > promotes hatred and glorifies verbal and written lashing. Before I go, > please stop using foul words, it warps your values and orientation. > > Warm regards, > Joan Sali > Conference Manager > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 9:24 PM, geneb wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Joan Sali wrote: > > > > Hi there Mike, > >> I love this note under your name > >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > >> Just curious why you're treating me like a garbage. :( > >> > >> So let me see if I have this right.... > > > > You post to a group of classic computer enthusiasts about a subject > > that isn't at all applicable to the topic at hand and then get > > butthurt over being called on it? > > > > Spammer, scammer, or neither, it's pretty damn obvious that you're > > not welcome here. > > > > Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. > > > > g. > > > > -- > > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value > > database for the masses, not the classes. > > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Jun 11 01:35:32 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 02:35:32 -0400 Subject: Unknown oldie w/8" floppy drives in Cheyenne Wyoming auction Message-ID: <1cd824.201c3149.448d0b34@aol.com> c 3b or c 3p? I remember a model c3p..... In a message dated 6/10/2016 2:04:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes: That looks like an Ohio Scientific C3-B with two 74MB hard drives. I'd really like to get that, and I'm within reasonable distance, but I don't think I'll be able to do it. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Jun 11 01:39:03 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 02:39:03 -0400 Subject: Unknown oldie w/8" floppy drives in Cheyenne Wyoming auction Message-ID: <1cdfe7.2f9398bc.448d0c07@aol.com> remember c3 p meant 3 different selectable processors... In a message dated 6/10/2016 2:04:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes: That looks like an Ohio Scientific C3-B with two 74MB hard drives. I'd really like to get that, and I'm within reasonable distance, but I don't think I'll be able to do it. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 02:16:09 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 08:16:09 +0100 Subject: VCF - can't get in again. Message-ID: <5e1b81e1-ce50-c0e6-9b2f-4d517e96aadd@btinternet.com> Would you believe it. VCF forum is up to its old tricks again. Same old thing. Can't log in Last time I got told I had registered when I had not. Just like the banks your PIN number was used so it must have been you. Our software can never be at fault. The user is always wrong. Rod From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 11 02:27:21 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 00:27:21 -0700 Subject: Unknown oldie w/8" floppy drives in Cheyenne Wyoming auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/10/2016 1:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> http://nicodemusauctions.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_0238.jpg >> >> http://nicodemusauctions.com/event/houge-electric-estate-auction/ >> >> Other then getting the notice I have no connection >> Found more info on probable owner: Dug up this on the original operation http://www.manta.com/c/mmf3m82/houge-radio-supply-co-inc Houge Radio & Supply Co Inc 1506 Thomes Avenue # A Cheyenne, WY 82001 Robert E Joyce owner (estate auction implies he croaked) Obit for him http://whttp://www.obitsforlife.com/obituary/1200134/Joyce-Robert-Bob.phpww.obitsforlife.com/obituary/1200134/Joyce-Robert-Bob.php Nice manual pile. Wonder of the other junker dealers who have already milled thru it and high graded it, since Mr Joyce passed in November. Thanks Jim > > Looks like OSI hardware to me: > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/photos.asp?t=1&c=47&st=1$ > > - Josh > > From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Jun 11 03:04:50 2016 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 04:04:50 -0400 Subject: Anyone have MULTOS/8 running on SimH? In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997EF0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997E83@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997EF0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <000401d1c3b7$ee2b9480$ca82bd80$@sc.rr.com> Hi Josh, I don't know if this will help you, but a guy in Sweden made a PDP-8/I out of a Raspberry Pi which he calls a PiDP-8/I with a custom made authentic looking slightly smaller version of the PDP-8/I front panel. The following url describes the OS-8 he used on simh running on a version of linux on the PI. < http://obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence#!pidp-software--documentation/c1btd > Maybe the OS-8 information on that site might help you. I don't think I have ever heard of MultOS-8, but I'd like to be kept in the loop on your project and learn more about it. I haven't bought my Pi 3 yet, but I'm planning on getting it soon to finish my PiDP-8/I Kit and get it operational. I pray you can find everything you need and get logged into your MultOS-8 installation. Take care my friend. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 11:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Anyone have MULTOS/8 running on SimH? > > To follow up to my own post; I tried it again at home this evening, on my Mac. And it works perfectly. My machine at work is a > Windows box; I'm guessing there's something odd with the keyboard handling for the Ctrl-H sequence on SIMH Windows but that's > mere speculation at this point... > > So, problem solved... kind of. > - Josh > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Josh Dersch [JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org] > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 4:24 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Anyone have MULTOS/8 running on SimH? > > I'm investigating getting MULTOS/8 running on the 8/e here at the museum and I thought I'd start by getting acquainted with it on > SIMH. > > I've picked up the disk pack from Dave Gesswein's site here: > https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/multos8.rk 05;sort=name and the manual here: > http://www.pdp8.net/os/multos8/ > > MULTOS as currently configured on the RK05 image appears to be set up for two terminals and everything listed in BUILD looks to > agree with respect to the SimH hardware configuration. I set up a password file per the instructions, and after I set the DATE, I do an: > > .R MULTOS > > And am greeted with: > > HELLO ! > > THIS IS THE MULTOS/8 MULTI-USER OS/8 TIMESHARING SYSTEM CREATED BY COMPUTER METHODS > 7822 OAKLEDGE ROAD > SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 84121, USA > PHONE 801-942-8000 > > > PLEASE INPUT TIME IN 24-HOUR FORMAT > (E.G. 0925 FOR 9:25 AM AND 1935 FOR 7:35 PM): > 1601 > > THANK YOU ! > > THE SYSTEM IS NOW TIMESHARING > > > TYPE CONTROL/H TO LOG ON. > > > At this point, the system becomes unresponsive; CTRL-H appears to have no effect. AC and MQ seem to be incrementing over time > as the docs describe. > > I've poked around and in PARAM.PG, the address of TTY #2 is set to 32 (VT78?), rather than the 40 I'd expect. I changed this and > reassembled the JOBS device handler, and then used BUILD to rebuild the system using it. I'm still getting the same behavior, > however... > > I have a bit of experience with OS/8 (but I'm not an expert) and nearly zero experience with MULTOS, so before I start debugging in > SimH I thought I'd check to see that I'm not doing anything intensely stupid here... > > Thanks! > Josh > > > = From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 11 03:08:33 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 08:08:33 +0000 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These are 7 segment LED displays, with a magnifying lens on top. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ali Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 6:19 PM To: CCTalk Mailing List Subject: Strange ICS on eBay Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/152124208945-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] gold bearing ic chips computer recovery refine scrap collector vintage www.ebay.com in Computers/Tablets & Networking, Vintage Computing, Other Vintage Computing Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... -Ali From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 11 03:16:54 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 08:16:54 +0000 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay Nothing to add! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I just want to say OOPs after reading the long thread before me. You guys already got the part. Sorry Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Randy Dawson Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2016 1:08 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Strange ICS on eBay These are 7 segment LED displays, with a magnifying lens on top. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ali Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 6:19 PM To: CCTalk Mailing List Subject: Strange ICS on eBay Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/152124208945-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] gold bearing ic chips computer recovery refine scrap collector vintage www.ebay.com in Computers/Tablets & Networking, Vintage Computing, Other Vintage Computing [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/152124208945-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] gold bearing ic chips computer recovery refine scrap collector vintage www.ebay.com in Computers/Tablets & Networking, Vintage Computing, Other Vintage Computing Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... -Ali From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 03:41:05 2016 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 04:41:05 -0400 Subject: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/dragging-teletypes-into-the-21st-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view In-Reply-To: <019501d1ba4a$c6a42f10$53ec8d30$@gmail.com> References: <574B89F9.30201@snarc.net> <000401d1ba25$dcda8600$968f9200$@classiccmp.org> <019501d1ba4a$c6a42f10$53ec8d30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Handy link. I have need of exactly that interface myself and didn't want to design my own. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 03:42:37 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 09:42:37 +0100 Subject: IO Selectric In-Reply-To: <002501d1c377$eadbc150$c09343f0$@gmail.com> References: <014401d1c1ca$4abb2bb0$e0318310$@gmail.com> <5758932C.10004@sydex.com> <01f601d1c225$f054c1c0$d0fe4540$@gmail.com> <000901d1c2e7$02e6f760$08b4e620$@gmail.com> <035001d1c309$d4c5f480$7e51dd80$@gmail.com> <002501d1c377$eadbc150$c09343f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <013601d1c3bd$355ede20$a01c9a60$@gmail.com> Thanks for that, the last looks very usefull... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: 11 June 2016 01:27 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: IO Selectric > > Here is the link to my Selectric II documentation: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k8l6sumb5cjrp7a/AADQ3SgnWqtqmw8Jo6yHV84 > ea?dl=0 > Some of the files are still syncing, should be done soon. When it's all done you > should have 4 manuals. > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 4:19 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: IO Selectric > > Thanks Marc Sounds Great. Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > CuriousMarc > > Sent: 10 June 2016 08:09 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: IO Selectric > > > > Dave, > > The best manual I have has 54 pages of visual diagrams for adjusting > > the Selectric II, which should be mechanically similar to yours, save > > the > added > > actuators. With about 7 adjustments depicted per page. Really. That's > > no > trivial > > piece of mechanical machinery, it's up there with some of the most > > complex mechanical calculators I have. But they are very well > > documented (unlike > said > > mechanical calculators). I'm in the process of uploading a folder with > > all > the > > Selectric II manuals I have accumulated to my public Dropbox, > > including > that > > most useful "visual" guide. Once it's up through my minuscule upload > > bandwidth I'll post a link. > > Marc > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > > Wade > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2016 1:07 AM > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: IO Selectric > > > > Thanks Chuck, > > > > I should have got those before as I have been a member on there for > > ages, > just > > couldn't remember they were there. The stuff in mine looks very > > similar to > the > > Louis Sanders article I have, so I am sure its from the same article. > > > > I now need to read the theory and clean, adjust and lubricate. > > > > Dave > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Chuck Guzis > > > Sent: 08 June 2016 22:51 > > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Re: IO Selectric > > > > > > I just did a quick check--the Yahoo golfballtypewritershop group > > > does have > > the > > > Louis Sander 1983 article from Micro magazine about converting an > > > I/O selectric for general computer use. > > > > > > There's also a two parter on the I/O Selectric theory of operation. > > > > > > You should have enough there to keep you busy. > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Jun 10 21:03:27 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 22:03:27 -0400 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160608100142.GA23966@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20160608100142.GA23966@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <20160611020327.GA22025@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Wed, Jun 08, 2016 at 12:01:42PM +0200, Martin Peters wrote: ... > > Ok, it's working again :-) > Good to hear. I got a scan of my tech ref up now. http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/software/TI_PC/documents/ You had said > Yesterday we took a closer look at the Maintenance Manual (s/o > sent me via PM on Wednesday) > Is that the same as the manual I just put up or different? If different could I get a copy? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 10 22:08:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 20:08:41 -0700 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160611020327.GA22025@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20160608100142.GA23966@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <20160611020327.GA22025@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: On 6/10/16 7:03 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Wed, Jun 08, 2016 at 12:01:42PM +0200, Martin Peters wrote: > ... >> >> Ok, it's working again :-) >> > Good to hear. > > I got a scan of my tech ref up now. > http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/software/TI_PC/documents/ > > > You had said >> Yesterday we took a closer look at the Maintenance Manual (s/o >> sent me via PM on Wednesday) >> > Is that the same as the manual I just put up or different? If different > could I get a copy? > I'm working on post-processing 2241092-0001_Business-Pro_Professional_Computer_Hardware_Technical_Reference_Apr86 right now.. From afahimi at fahimienterprises.com Fri Jun 10 20:16:37 2016 From: afahimi at fahimienterprises.com (Ali Fahimi, M.D.) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:16:37 -0400 Subject: Strange ICs on eBay Message-ID: Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... -Ali From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 04:38:01 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 10:38:01 +0100 Subject: VCF now sorted. Message-ID: Hi VCF is now OK. I logged me normally and I got my panel bulletin up. R From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 04:53:19 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 10:53:19 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT Message-ID: <25f94942-5a77-2ccf-96fa-90fa16cf507b@btinternet.com> Hi I have had some success in fixing a couple of TK tape drives. They now load and unload every time you press the button. SFSG now to talk to them from RT. Using the diagnostics on the format (RX50) disk the Identify function shows the drive and by inference its controller. However its calls it MUX. I seem to remember under RT you needed to do a SET or ASSIGN to link it to the driver. Anybody know the correct syntax so I can init the tape and start to read and write files to and from it. Rod From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Jun 11 05:03:02 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 12:03:02 +0200 Subject: Strange ICs on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160611100302.GA781@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 09:16:37PM -0400, Ali Fahimi, M.D. wrote: > Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 > Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... Those look like "starburst" displays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen-segment_display The window is indeed a magnifying lens. I ass-u-me that LED technology was still a bit naff back in the 1970s and it was more practical to optically enlarge the segments than make a chip with physically larger segments. This compromise produced an odd visual effect, which is likely why it's not done any more. From pdaguytom at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 07:22:01 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 07:22:01 -0500 Subject: Looking for D#CM@TE II Mainboard Message-ID: Okay so I'm trying again, as the Classiccmp software is not letting my post through with the correct name of the subject computer included in the post (I've tried thrice). My D#CM at TE II has begun behaving very strangely. The computers began to develop keyboard issues a few weeks ago, which resolved to be some or all of a set of small filtering caps (which on my board, looked just like picofuses) that sit on the lines for the keyboard/video port failing. Replaced those with 470pf caps (after I incorrectly identified and installed picofuses the 1st time), the computer now recognizes the keyboard, but now fails 9 out of 10 times to go through a proper boot sequence, generating a randomly garbled version of the test screen patterns and then sometimes attempting to boot the floppy (but fails). Anyway, if anyone has a mainboard left over from a Spare Time Gizmos project and would like to get sell it, I'd be interested. Thanks, Tom From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 09:19:53 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 16:19:53 +0200 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 June 2016 at 18:26, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Yes. I just googled "ibm 3511", and it came up at around hit number 5 for me. It was a regular google search; an image search wasn't nearly as helpful. > > http://www.1000bit.it/ad/bro/ibm/IBM-PS2-351x-StorageOption.pdf Aaaah! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 09:40:09 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 16:40:09 +0200 Subject: Looking for D#CM@TE II Mainboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 June 2016 at 14:22, pdaguytom wrote: > Okay so I'm trying again, as the Classiccmp software is not letting my > post through with the correct name of the subject computer included in the > post (I've tried thrice). > My D#CM at TE II has begun behaving very strangely. > The computers began to develop keyboard issues a few weeks ago, which > resolved to be some or all of a set of small filtering caps (which on my > board, looked just like picofuses) that sit on the lines for the > keyboard/video port failing. Replaced those with 470pf caps (after I > incorrectly identified and installed picofuses the 1st time), the computer > now recognizes the keyboard, but now fails 9 out of 10 times to go through > a proper boot sequence, generating a randomly garbled version of the test > screen patterns and then sometimes attempting to boot the floppy (but > fails). > > Anyway, if anyone has a mainboard left over from a Spare Time Gizmos > project and would like to get sell it, I'd be interested. > > Thanks, > Tom It did get through: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: pdaguytom Date: 11 June 2016 at 04:23 Subject: Decmate II motherbord To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Looking for a Decmate II motherboard. Doesn't need to have the CPU. Thanks, Tom ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- When you post to a mailing list with Gmail, Gmail doesn't show you your own message as unread. You wrote it, I presume it reasons, so you know what it says. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From pdaguytom at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 09:47:28 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 09:47:28 -0500 Subject: Looking for D#CM@TE II Mainboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm...Ok. Sorry for the double post. Inconsistent behavior or interpretation on my part. Tom On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 11 June 2016 at 14:22, pdaguytom wrote: > > Okay so I'm trying again, as the Classiccmp software is not letting my > > post through with the correct name of the subject computer included in > the > > post (I've tried thrice). > > My D#CM at TE II has begun behaving very strangely. > > The computers began to develop keyboard issues a few weeks ago, which > > resolved to be some or all of a set of small filtering caps (which on my > > board, looked just like picofuses) that sit on the lines for the > > keyboard/video port failing. Replaced those with 470pf caps (after I > > incorrectly identified and installed picofuses the 1st time), the > computer > > now recognizes the keyboard, but now fails 9 out of 10 times to go > through > > a proper boot sequence, generating a randomly garbled version of the test > > screen patterns and then sometimes attempting to boot the floppy (but > > fails). > > > > Anyway, if anyone has a mainboard left over from a Spare Time Gizmos > > project and would like to get sell it, I'd be interested. > > > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > It did get through: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: pdaguytom > Date: 11 June 2016 at 04:23 > Subject: Decmate II motherbord > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > Looking for a Decmate II motherboard. Doesn't need to have the CPU. > > Thanks, > Tom > > ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- > > When you post to a mailing list with Gmail, Gmail doesn't show you > your own message as unread. You wrote it, I presume it reasons, so you > know what it says. > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Jun 11 10:14:41 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 11:14:41 -0400 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <25f94942-5a77-2ccf-96fa-90fa16cf507b@btinternet.com> References: <25f94942-5a77-2ccf-96fa-90fa16cf507b@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <575C2AE1.5060905@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > I have had some success in fixing a couple of TK tape drives. > > They now load and unload every time you press the button. > > SFSG now to talk to them from RT. > > Using the diagnostics on the format (RX50) disk the Identify function > shows the drive and by inference its controller. > > However its calls it MUX. I seem to remember under RT you needed to > do a SET or ASSIGN to link it to the driver. > > Anybody know the correct syntax so I can init the tape and start to > read and write files to and from it. I really don't understand the question. Whenever I used either the TK50 or the TK70 under RT-11, the device name was TU0: and no SET or ASSIGN was required unless the CSR and / or VECTOR needed to be modified - which never happened since the standard CSR / VECTOR was always OK. By the way, while the TK50 is mostly reasonable in WRITE mode and COPY operations, a COMPARE leaves a lot to be desired. The TK70 solves that problem. If you must COMPARE with the TK50, COPY the files(s) to a scratch disk first. To initialize the tape for files: INIT TU0: COPY SY:*.SAV TU0: I suggest you use the NOREWIND option between files if you are writing more than one file per command. If you don't, you will quickly realize why that option is preferred. To initialize the take for a BACKUP: INIT/BACKUP TU0: You can check the results with: DIR TU0: Jerome Fine From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jun 11 10:57:54 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 08:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Strange ICS on eBay In-Reply-To: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> References: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Jun-10, at 6:19 PM, Ali wrote: >> Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 >> Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... >> -Ali > > Those are 4-digit 14-segment LED displays. I just hope someone rescues them from that gold-bearing jackass of a seller. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jsw at ieee.org Sat Jun 11 11:05:47 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 11:05:47 -0500 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <575C2AE1.5060905@compsys.to> References: <25f94942-5a77-2ccf-96fa-90fa16cf507b@btinternet.com> <575C2AE1.5060905@compsys.to> Message-ID: <003DB753-C8F6-4185-909B-E01E4AA2C22B@ieee.org> > On Jun 11, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> I have had some success in fixing a couple of TK tape drives. >> >> They now load and unload every time you press the button. >> >> SFSG now to talk to them from RT. >> >> Using the diagnostics on the format (RX50) disk the Identify function shows the drive and by inference its controller. >> >> However its calls it MUX. I seem to remember under RT you needed to do a SET or ASSIGN to link it to the driver. >> >> Anybody know the correct syntax so I can init the tape and start to read and write files to and from it. > > I really don't understand the question. > > Whenever I used either the TK50 or the TK70 under RT-11, > the device name was TU0: and no SET or ASSIGN was required > unless the CSR and / or VECTOR needed to be modified - which > never happened since the standard CSR / VECTOR was always OK. > > By the way, while the TK50 is mostly reasonable in WRITE mode > and COPY operations, a COMPARE leaves a lot to be desired. > The TK70 solves that problem. If you must COMPARE with the > TK50, COPY the files(s) to a scratch disk first. > > To initialize the tape for files: > INIT TU0: > COPY SY:*.SAV TU0: > I suggest you use the NOREWIND option between files if you > are writing more than one file per command. If you don't, you > will quickly realize why that option is preferred. > > To initialize the take for a BACKUP: > INIT/BACKUP TU0: > > You can check the results with: > DIR TU0: > > Jerome Fine Wouldn?t this be a TMSCP device and use the MU handler? If you have RT11 V5.x try the following commands .sho dev:mu Device Status CSR Vector(s) ------ ------ --- ???? MU Installed 174500 260 MU0: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 0 .load mu: .sh dev:mu Device Status CSR Vector(s) ------ ------ --- --------- MU 122160 174500 260 MU0: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 0 INIT MU0: Use MU0: in the examples instead of TU0: Jerome has above. Jerry From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 11 11:36:20 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 09:36:20 -0700 Subject: Strange ICS on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <11C03E7C-0A0A-46FA-8F12-D454E7B37629@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <575C3E04.9090400@sydex.com> On 06/11/2016 08:57 AM, geneb wrote: > I just hope someone rescues them from that gold-bearing jackass of a > seller. I've got a late 70s mini terminal that uses these (or their kin) for a single-line 64-character display. Not the best character formation, but it does get the job done. I'd think that you could find these in old credit card terminals and TDD boxes--although credit card terminals tend to use VFD displays. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 12:17:16 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 19:17:16 +0200 Subject: Informer 213 terminal Message-ID: I just dig out this little thing form my father stash of various stuff. Had to replace the input filter module since there were a small cloud when powering it up. It also left fair amount of thick smelly tar in the machine. But the exact replacement were still to be found some 30 years later. The little thing is driven by a 68B09 processor, some ROM and RAM and a big NEC ship marked "Informer". Maybe a custom ASIC. The screen is a Lohja / Finlux 512x256 EL display. When bringing up the setup screen it does not look like the one in the m anual. It looks more IBMish. http://i.imgur.com/7EX5uTz.jpg It says 374/SNA - Rev 2.1 Does anyone have a more non-IBMish firmware set (or is there some other way to make it more VT100)? A 27256 and a 2764 goes into the terminal. There is a Youtube video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvPR8UypXNw , on a Informer 213 but the firmware seems to be different (at around 1:31). /Mattis From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat Jun 11 14:16:47 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 12:16:47 -0700 Subject: Strange ICs on eBay In-Reply-To: <20160611100302.GA781@mooli.org.uk> References: <20160611100302.GA781@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <008801d1c415$cde96f40$69bc4dc0$@net> > > Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 > > Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window > is weird... > > Those look like "starburst" displays: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen-segment_display > > The window is indeed a magnifying lens. I ass-u-me that LED technology > was still a bit naff back in the 1970s and it was more practical to > optically enlarge the segments than make a chip with physically larger > segments. This compromise produced an odd visual effect, which is > likely why it's not done any more. Thanks to everyone who replied. I had never seen those before. There seems to be a bid on them already so hopefully it is someone who want the display and not the "gold". -Ali From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 11 14:25:31 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 19:25:31 +0000 Subject: Strange ICs on eBay In-Reply-To: <008801d1c415$cde96f40$69bc4dc0$@net> References: <20160611100302.GA781@mooli.org.uk>,<008801d1c415$cde96f40$69bc4dc0$@net> Message-ID: I doubt there is that much gold in them to cover purchase price and shipping. The gold used in these is really thin. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ali Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2016 12:16:47 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Strange ICs on eBay > > Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 > > Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window > is weird... > > Those look like "starburst" displays: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen-segment_display > > The window is indeed a magnifying lens. I ass-u-me that LED technology > was still a bit naff back in the 1970s and it was more practical to > optically enlarge the segments than make a chip with physically larger > segments. This compromise produced an odd visual effect, which is > likely why it's not done any more. Thanks to everyone who replied. I had never seen those before. There seems to be a bid on them already so hopefully it is someone who want the display and not the "gold". -Ali From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jun 11 15:00:15 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 21:00:15 +0100 Subject: Informer 213 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a0b4ab3-4e83-f86d-02fc-cf3f28b2ae34@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/06/2016 18:17, Mattis Lind wrote: > I just dig out this little thing form my father stash of various stuff. > > When bringing up the setup screen it does not look like the one in the > manual. I love the way they felt they had to explain the keyboard at such length. And explain that the unmarked key is the space bar - I remember when I was about 6 or 7, having to ask my dad how to get a space on his office typewriter. I was also amused to see they have a section on connecting it to the UK's BT lines (in the days when things needed BT Approval) so it's obviously intended for UK use, yet it's pictured with an American power lead. -- Pete From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jun 11 21:04:08 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 20:04:08 -0600 Subject: am8052 Message-ID: <4cee03b4-8093-9fca-1bc8-0f4aa02a8d3f@e-bbes.com> Hi all, anybody know, which system used it? It is a 1986 CRT controller, which was pretty fancy back then. But never saw actual hardware with it ... Thanks From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Jun 11 22:01:22 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 23:01:22 -0400 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <003DB753-C8F6-4185-909B-E01E4AA2C22B@ieee.org> References: <25f94942-5a77-2ccf-96fa-90fa16cf507b@btinternet.com> <575C2AE1.5060905@compsys.to> <003DB753-C8F6-4185-909B-E01E4AA2C22B@ieee.org> Message-ID: <575CD082.1020508@compsys.to> >Jerry Weiss wrote: >>>On Jun 11, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>>>Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> >>>I have had some success in fixing a couple of TK tape drives. >>> >>>They now load and unload every time you press the button. >>> >>>SFSG now to talk to them from RT. >>> >>>Using the diagnostics on the format (RX50) disk the Identify function shows the drive and by inference its controller. >>> >>>However its calls it MUX. I seem to remember under RT you needed to do a SET or ASSIGN to link it to the driver. >>> >>>Anybody know the correct syntax so I can init the tape and start to read and write files to and from it. >>> >>> >>I really don't understand the question. >> >>Whenever I used either the TK50 or the TK70 under RT-11, >>the device name was TU0: and no SET or ASSIGN was required >>unless the CSR and / or VECTOR needed to be modified - which >>never happened since the standard CSR / VECTOR was always OK. >> >>By the way, while the TK50 is mostly reasonable in WRITE mode >>and COPY operations, a COMPARE leaves a lot to be desired. >>The TK70 solves that problem. If you must COMPARE with the >>TK50, COPY the files(s) to a scratch disk first. >> >>To initialize the tape for files: >>INIT TU0: >>COPY SY:*.SAV TU0: >>I suggest you use the NOREWIND option between files if you >>are writing more than one file per command. If you don't, you >>will quickly realize why that option is preferred. >> >>To initialize the take for a BACKUP: >>INIT/BACKUP TU0: >> >>You can check the results with: >>DIR TU0: >> >>Jerome Fine >> >> > >Wouldn?t this be a TMSCP device and use the MU handler? > >If you have RT11 V5.x try the following commands > >.sho dev:mu >Device Status CSR Vector(s) >------ ------ --- ???? > MU Installed 174500 260 >MU0: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 0 > >.load mu: > >.sh dev:mu > >Device Status CSR Vector(s) >------ ------ --- --------- > MU 122160 174500 260 >MU0: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 0 > >INIT MU0: >Use MU0: in the examples instead of TU0: Jerome has above. > > > >Jerry > Sorry about that - I apologize!! You are correct!!!! Please substitute MU for TU. Jerome Fine From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jun 11 23:00:12 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 21:00:12 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions Message-ID: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> My Nova 3/12 system has a 6045 cartridge hard drive, with one fixed platter, one removable platter, and a capacity of 10M. I haven't managed to boot my computer from it yet, and after a long pause, my Nova 3 is requesting another time slice of my attention. I can see in the drive's technical manual where I can specify surface 0-3 in the commands. I assume that the built-in bootstrap loader in the Nova 3 reads drive 0, cylinder 0, surface 0, sector 0, and places it at memory location 0, simply by virtue of all of the registers having been reset after an initial power-up and spin-up. The bootstrap loader code I've seen looks like it just issues a read command without initializing the memory address register and disc address/sector count register. I don't fully grok that code yet, so maybe I'm mistaken. I have not found mention yet of which surface numbers correspond to the fixed platter and which correspond to the removable one. Is the removable platter selected as surfaces 0 and 1, such that the system would normally boot from the removable platter? Or would it normally boot from the fixed platter, with the removable platter being used to get data on and off the system? Incidentally, I wonder if anybody has any original printed technical documentation relevant to my Nova 3 system which they might like to sell. I'm working off PDFs right now, and I'd like clean original paper copies for easier perusal and reference. I'm also interested in replacing the filler panels in my Nova's rack with other interesting peripherals. Maybe a floppy drive? My 6045 is supposed to be able to be mixable with 6030 drives on the same bus, according to the 6045 manual. If anybody has some excess Nova hardware that might fit into my system, please let me know. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sun Jun 12 00:00:05 2016 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 23:00:05 -0600 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> DG Model 6045 disk drive heads 0 and 1 are the removable platter, heads 2 and 3 are the 'fixed' platter. As you said, the controller memory address and sector/sector/count values are set to 0 by the IORESET pulse, so a read operation (STRT pulse) will start the reading of the bootstrap into low memory from the removable disk. Contact me off-list regarding the documentation... Bruce On 6/11/2016 10:00 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > My Nova 3/12 system has a 6045 cartridge hard drive, with one fixed platter, one removable platter, and a capacity of 10M. I haven't managed to boot my computer from it yet, and after a long pause, my Nova 3 is requesting another time slice of my attention. > > I can see in the drive's technical manual where I can specify surface 0-3 in the commands. I assume that the built-in bootstrap loader in the Nova 3 reads drive 0, cylinder 0, surface 0, sector 0, and places it at memory location 0, simply by virtue of all of the registers having been reset after an initial power-up and spin-up. The bootstrap loader code I've seen looks like it just issues a read command without initializing the memory address register and disc address/sector count register. I don't fully grok that code yet, so maybe I'm mistaken. > > I have not found mention yet of which surface numbers correspond to the fixed platter and which correspond to the removable one. Is the removable platter selected as surfaces 0 and 1, such that the system would normally boot from the removable platter? Or would it normally boot from the fixed platter, with the removable platter being used to get data on and off the system? > > Incidentally, I wonder if anybody has any original printed technical documentation relevant to my Nova 3 system which they might like to sell. I'm working off PDFs right now, and I'd like clean original paper copies for easier perusal and reference. > > I'm also interested in replacing the filler panels in my Nova's rack with other interesting peripherals. Maybe a floppy drive? My 6045 is supposed to be able to be mixable with 6030 drives on the same bus, according to the 6045 manual. If anybody has some excess Nova hardware that might fit into my system, please let me know. > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 00:10:00 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 22:10:00 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 11, 2016, at 22:00, Bruce Ray wrote: > > DG Model 6045 disk drive heads 0 and 1 are the removable platter, heads 2 and 3 are the 'fixed' platter. As you said, the controller memory address and sector/sector/count values are set to 0 by the IORESET pulse, so a read operation (STRT pulse) will start the reading of the bootstrap into low memory from the removable disk. Excellent! That makes sense. Ok, studying the documentation scans I have some more, I think I plugged the hard drive interface cable into the wrong connector when I reassembled the system after moving it. Hopefully I didn't damage anything! On the backplane, there's a terminator on the bottom rear connector (P3 I/O bus, I think), and there's another card edge installed behind the top rear connector (P4, disk drive interface, I think). I had the disk drive cable on the inboard add-on connector instead of the top backplane connector (P4). I think that was wrong! But studying the documentation, I see that P4 is hard-wired to slot 10. However, the cards might be installed incorrectly in my system. I have plugged in: Slot | Part Number | Description -----+---------------+-------------------------------- 12 | 107-000116-08 | DGC NOVA QUAD MULTIPLEXER 11 | 107-000187-16 | DISK CARTRIDGE CONTROL DGC NOVA 10 | | 9 | | 8 | | 7 | | 6 | | 5 | | 4 | 107-000151-19 | DGC NOVA CASSETTE I/O 3 | | 128K MOSTEK MEMORY 2 | 107-000621-01 | NOVA 3 TRIPLE OPTION 1 | 107-000539-05 | NOVA 3 CPU I think that I need to both move the hard drive cable to P4 at the top rear of the backplane, and move the disk controller card to slot 10. Does that sound correct? I don't know what that expansion card edge is for yet, and I can't get to it easily right now with the chassis in the rack. Maybe it's wired to the Cassette I/O card? I should take some detailed pictures to post and discuss tomorrow. That Cassette I/O card looks interesting to me, and I wonder if there's any chance that I might find the tape transport that goes with it. > Contact me off-list regarding the documentation... Will do! And thanks for your indispensable help with my system last time I gave it some brain bandwidth. Now I'm off to try and figure out what baud rate my console is strapped for, which I wasn't smart enough to write down last time I worked with the system. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 01:18:26 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 23:18:26 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <478AE1B4-F029-4460-8683-F58A860B14AB@nf6x.net> More details: I can't be sure because the Nova rack is presently in a crowded corner which is keeping me from removing the chassis from the rack in order to get its top panel off. But it appears to me that the mystery edge connector that I previously had the hard drive interface cable connected to is wire-wrapped over to slot 11, where the disk controller is plugged in. Here are some pictures of the backplane: http://www.nf6x.net/2016/06/data-general-nova-3-backplane/ -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 01:32:16 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 23:32:16 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: <478AE1B4-F029-4460-8683-F58A860B14AB@nf6x.net> References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> <478AE1B4-F029-4460-8683-F58A860B14AB@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <3D0FAE29-9F89-476E-8CD0-4D1F0085BFCC@nf6x.net> Aha! Now I remember. That Cassette I/O card is mostly unpopulated, and I think it's just installed for its serial port. I think Bruce had told me about that long ago, but my memories are as dusty as the Nova is at the moment. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 12 02:08:25 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 01:08:25 -0600 Subject: Strange ICs on eBay In-Reply-To: <20160611100302.GA781@mooli.org.uk> References: <20160611100302.GA781@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <454f1cf0-da08-c43e-1025-d43e23d2af9e@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/11/2016 4:03 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 09:16:37PM -0400, Ali Fahimi, M.D. wrote: >> Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 >> Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... > > Those look like "starburst" displays: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen-segment_display > > The window is indeed a magnifying lens. I ass-u-me that LED technology was > still a bit naff back in the 1970s and it was more practical to optically > enlarge the segments than make a chip with physically larger segments. This > compromise produced an odd visual effect, which is likely why it's not done any > more. > > Oddly, Jamco seems to have have found a bunch of stock of 7 segment displays somewhere and is selling them. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 12 02:17:02 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 01:17:02 -0600 Subject: Anyone have MULTOS/8 running on SimH? In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997E83@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629997E83@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <15329c02-a5dc-9476-6189-cba69b46884e@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/10/2016 5:24 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I'm investigating getting MULTOS/8 running on the 8/e here at the > museum and I thought I'd start by getting acquainted with it on > SIMH. > That that to be most misuse of computing power I can think of ,if have a REAL TTY connected to the system. Good luck with learning the MULTOS/8. Ben. From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jun 11 13:06:38 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 14:06:38 -0400 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160611180638.GA24799@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 08:08:41PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > I'm working on post-processing 2241092-0001_Business-Pro_Professional_Computer_Hardware_Technical_Reference_Apr86 > right now.. > Is this the later 286 model? Mine is the 8088. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 11 13:51:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 11:51:50 -0700 Subject: TI Professional Computer (TIPC) Service Manual? In-Reply-To: <20160611180638.GA24799@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20160611180638.GA24799@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <20bc7e02-d753-707b-8ea1-36c69b6c0d0e@bitsavers.org> On 6/11/16 11:06 AM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 08:08:41PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> I'm working on post-processing 2241092-0001_Business-Pro_Professional_Computer_Hardware_Technical_Reference_Apr86 >> right now.. >> > Is this the later 286 model? yes From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jun 12 02:44:08 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:08 +0200 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: <3D0FAE29-9F89-476E-8CD0-4D1F0085BFCC@nf6x.net> References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> <478AE1B4-F029-4460-8683-F58A860B14AB@nf6x.net> <3D0FAE29-9F89-476E-8CD0-4D1F0085BFCC@nf6x.net> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Mark J. Blair Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 8:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions Aha! Now I remember. That Cassette I/O card is mostly unpopulated, and I think it's just installed for its serial port. I think Bruce had told me about that long ago, but my memories are as dusty as the Nova is at the moment. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ --------- Just like Mark, it's about time to spend some time on my NOVA3. I will be following this with interest! I have very little knowledge of it, Bruce is a great guy. Thanks again Bruce! Even identifying the hardware was only possible with Bruce's help ... My system has a 6070 disk drive, also a non-removable disk combined with a removable cartridge. And when I got the system it also had a model 6031 single 8" floppy drive. Later I was very lucky to pick up a 6025 tape drive (with tension arms, not vacuum columns). I even got the controller board. I am still searching for the interconnection cable that goes from the backplane to the circuit board attached to the tape drive. Were all bulbs on the front panel of your NOVA intact Mark? Or did/do you also have dead lamps? Know of a source where to buy them? - Henk, PA8PDP From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 03:28:56 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 01:28:56 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> <478AE1B4-F029-4460-8683-F58A860B14AB@nf6x.net> <3D0FAE29-9F89-476E-8CD0-4D1F0085BFCC@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 12, 2016, at 00:44, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > Just like Mark, it's about time to spend some time on my NOVA3. > I will be following this with interest! Yay! > Were all bulbs on the front panel of your NOVA intact Mark? > Or did/do you also have dead lamps? Know of a source where to buy them? I did have some dead bulbs. My memory is foggy, but I found some archived emails from when I discussed the bulb replacement two years ago. I think that I used number 2185 bulbs that I ordered from Digi-Key. Here are the old messages in my archive: On Jun 14, 2014, at 09:21, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Do any of y'all know the bulb number for the fragile little wire-leaded bulbs used in the Data General Nova's switch console? I have at least one burned out, and a couple have snapped off. I measure about 15V across the bulbs on my machine, but I don't know yet whether that's the correct voltage, nor do I know the nominal voltage, current or brightness ratings of the correct bulbs. > > Picture: > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/477846674543362048/photo/1 > On Jun 15, 2014, at 09:06, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > On Jun 15, 2014, at 08:49 , Toby Thain wrote: >> Via email, snarfusmaximus writes, "I replaced mine with yellow LEDs with a series resistor." > > That's a pretty tempting solution. Those original bulbs are quite fragile, and appear to be quite prone to suffering lead breakage near the glass seal. > > Here's what I just posted on VCF, for those (few?) folks who are here but not there: > > -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- > > Regarding the console bulbs, I found that one of mine that snapped off at the base still has an intact filament. I was able to probe the wires at the glass seals to light it up and measure current. The bulbs are normally powered from an unregulated 14V rail as I understand things, and I measured the voltage at around 15V on my machine. The broken-off bulb draws 39mA at 14V and the filament color is quite orange. It draws 50mA at 28V and has a normal-looking color temperature. I conclude that the original bulbs were probably designed for 28V operation or so, and are used at lower voltage in the Nova 3 to increase service life (?). > > McMaster-Carr and Digi-Key both have some bulbs that look like possible substitutes. I think I'll try some 2185 bulbs from Digi-Key since I'm ordering other stuff from them anyway, unless anybody has a better confirmed cross-ref. Those are 28V 40mA bulbs. > > I also received an email from another collector who used KH 4-280-040A-1 bulbs from KH Lamp in his Nova. He reports that he got them from Swedish distributor Elfa as part number 33-657-98. That's a 28V 40mA T1-1/4 bulb. On Jun 15, 2014, at 14:16, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Jun 15, 2014, at 12:51 , Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Here's another testimonial for a Nova, this fellow mentions replacing them with 28V/0.04A bulbs, but doesn't say how he knows those specs: >> http://www.foxdata.com/blog/?tag=nova-312 > > He's emailed me about his project. I can't access his web site at the moment, and we're planning to look into that tomorrow. > > >> The Hudson 2187D type he mentions maps to Chicago CM-2187, listed at Mouser: >> http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Chicago-Miniature/2187/?qs=qp111mKzDjgelZXllf1Wrw== > > Cool. If the 2185 bulbs that I'm ordering from Digi-Key don't work well, I'll try some 2187 bulbs. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 12 05:00:31 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:00:31 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <575CD082.1020508@compsys.to> References: <25f94942-5a77-2ccf-96fa-90fa16cf507b@btinternet.com> <575C2AE1.5060905@compsys.to> <003DB753-C8F6-4185-909B-E01E4AA2C22B@ieee.org> <575CD082.1020508@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 12/06/2016 04:01, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jerry Weiss wrote: > >>>> On Jun 11, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Jerome H. Fine >>>> wrote: >>> >>>>> Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> >>>> I have had some success in fixing a couple of TK tape drives. >>>> >>>> They now load and unload every time you press the button. >>>> >>>> SFSG now to talk to them from RT. >>>> >>>> Using the diagnostics on the format (RX50) disk the Identify >>>> function shows the drive and by inference its controller. >>>> >>>> However its calls it MUX. I seem to remember under RT you needed >>>> to do a SET or ASSIGN to link it to the driver. >>>> >>>> Anybody know the correct syntax so I can init the tape and start >>>> to read and write files to and from it. >>>> >>> I really don't understand the question. >>> >>> Whenever I used either the TK50 or the TK70 under RT-11, >>> the device name was TU0: and no SET or ASSIGN was required >>> unless the CSR and / or VECTOR needed to be modified - which >>> never happened since the standard CSR / VECTOR was always OK. >>> >>> By the way, while the TK50 is mostly reasonable in WRITE mode >>> and COPY operations, a COMPARE leaves a lot to be desired. >>> The TK70 solves that problem. If you must COMPARE with the >>> TK50, COPY the files(s) to a scratch disk first. >>> >>> To initialize the tape for files: >>> INIT TU0: >>> COPY SY:*.SAV TU0: >>> I suggest you use the NOREWIND option between files if you >>> are writing more than one file per command. If you don't, you >>> will quickly realize why that option is preferred. >>> >>> To initialize the take for a BACKUP: >>> INIT/BACKUP TU0: >>> >>> You can check the results with: >>> DIR TU0: >>> >>> Jerome Fine >>> >> >> Wouldn?t this be a TMSCP device and use the MU handler? >> >> If you have RT11 V5.x try the following commands >> >> .sho dev:mu Device Status CSR Vector(s) >> ------ ------ --- ???? >> MU Installed 174500 260 >> MU0: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 0 >> >> .load mu: >> >> .sh dev:mu >> >> Device Status CSR Vector(s) >> ------ ------ --- --------- >> MU 122160 174500 260 >> MU0: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 0 >> >> INIT MU0: Use MU0: in the examples instead of TU0: Jerome has above. >> >> >> >> Jerry >> > Sorry about that - I apologize!! You are correct!!!! > > Please substitute MU for TU. > > Jerome Fine OK we are moving forward. Drive is TK70 Interface card is a TQK70 controller The cart is a TK50 as that's all I have. The write protect slide is to write protect off. Cart loads normally and activity light goes to on. Write protect light is off I can now get the INIT to start and ask init Y/N. INIT starts but write protect light comes on System halts on an I/O error .sh dev:mu gives Device Status CSR Vector(s) --------- -------- --- ---------- MU 122722 174500 260 254 Nearly there I think. I have loads of TK50 tapes to format. Rod From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 12 05:31:27 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:31:27 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/06/2016 11:00, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > OK we are moving forward. > > Drive is TK70 > Interface card is a TQK70 controller > The cart is a TK50 as that's all I have. > The write protect slide is to write protect off. > Cart loads normally and activity light goes to on. > Write protect light is off > I can now get the INIT to start and ask init Y/N. > INIT starts but write protect light comes on > System halts on an I/O error > > .sh dev:mu > > gives > > Device Status CSR Vector(s) > --------- -------- --- > ---------- > MU 122722 174500 260 254 > > Nearly there I think. I have loads of TK50 tapes to format. I'm pretty sure the TK70 can only read TK50 tapes and not write to them... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 12 06:15:25 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:15:25 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67dee5ae-f761-8045-04db-21739381723a@btinternet.com> On 12/06/2016 11:31, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 12/06/2016 11:00, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > >> OK we are moving forward. >> >> Drive is TK70 >> Interface card is a TQK70 controller >> The cart is a TK50 as that's all I have. >> The write protect slide is to write protect off. >> Cart loads normally and activity light goes to on. >> Write protect light is off >> I can now get the INIT to start and ask init Y/N. >> INIT starts but write protect light comes on >> System halts on an I/O error >> >> .sh dev:mu >> >> gives >> >> Device Status CSR Vector(s) >> --------- -------- --- >> ---------- >> MU 122722 174500 260 254 >> >> Nearly there I think. I have loads of TK50 tapes to format. > I'm pretty sure the TK70 can only read TK50 tapes and not write to them... > Thanks Graham Now that sounds highly likely. Does the TK70 controller support the TK50 drive perchance? I have a TK 50 controller I can aways put that back in. Ro From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 12 06:48:59 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:48:59 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <67dee5ae-f761-8045-04db-21739381723a@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 12/06/2016 12:15, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: >>> Nearly there I think. I have loads of TK50 tapes to format. >> I'm pretty sure the TK70 can only read TK50 tapes and not write to them... >> > Thanks Graham > > Now that sounds highly likely. Does the TK70 controller support the > TK50 drive perchance? > I have a TK 50 controller I can aways put that back in. The TQK70 controller supports the TK50 drive, yes. If you're needing to bulk erase it might be easier/quicker to get hold of a degausser then just init before writing as necessary. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jun 12 07:30:08 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 08:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Using 1MB M8750 cards in a PDP-11/70 Message-ID: <20160612123008.5A18718C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So there was some prior discussion on the list about using the later 1MB M8750 cards (used in the VAX-11/750, /730, etc) in the MK11 memory of a PDP-11/70: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2015-March/003598.html However, that seems to require some kludgery in the MK11 (sending 4 separate 'board select' signals to a single memory card, etc). I'm interested in using the 1MB M8750 cards because the smaller 256KB M8728 cards (which the MK11 _will_ take, although there's very little about that in extant DEC documentation) are now seemingly unobtainium. (Almost all the MK11 documentation that I have only talks about the 64K M7984. The only one that does mention the M8728 is the -11/70 Maintenance Service Guide, KA-K1170-MG-003, and it doesn't say much, just indicates that one just plugs them in, and the controller recognizes them. So I've been studying the prints to see how that all works - there are per-slot/board 'personality' lines the MK11 can read.) The thing is that M8728 cards use the exact same PCB as the M7850 - in fact, there are lots of 'M8728' cards listed online, because it says 'M8728' in the etch, but they are in fact M8750's (as shown on the handles)! So I had a brainwave: why not use M8750's, but jumper them to look like M8728's? I'd only be using 256KB of a 1M card, but I can live with that (I just bought a giant stack of M8750's for a fairly nominal amount). It would let me use the M8750's without having to do hardware mods to my MK11. So, has anyone here ever worked out how to use M8750 cards in the MK11 in this manner? It looks like all one has to do is i) figure out how to jumper the M8750 to look like an M8728 (there is no documentation on the M8728 extant, AFAICT), and ii) make sure that the A7 pin to the 64K RAM chips of the M8750 is driven consistently to either '1' or '0' (it looks like there's a jumper in the A7 drive line, and one could connect the appropriate post of that jumper to ground to do that). So, if someone has done this before, or, failing that, if anyone has M8728 documentation (although I can get the M8728 jumper etc info off an M8728 I have coming, if not), I would be extremely grateful! Thanks in advance (I hope :-)! Noel From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 12 07:54:11 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 08:54:11 -0400 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> >Adrian Graham wrote: >>On 12/06/2016 12:15, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > >>>>Nearly there I think. I have loads of TK50 tapes to format. >>>> >>>> >>>I'm pretty sure the TK70 can only read TK50 tapes and not write to them... >>> >>Thanks Graham >> >> Now that sounds highly likely. Does the TK70 controller support the >>TK50 drive perchance? >>I have a TK 50 controller I can aways put that back in. >> >The TQK70 controller supports the TK50 drive, yes. If you're needing to bulk >erase it might be easier/quicker to get hold of a degausser then just init >before writing as necessary. > I seem to remember that Adrian is correct and that the TK70 controller does support the TK50 drive. However, my question would be "WHY?" use the TK50 drive if you have a TK70 drive? One answer would be if you had tapes already formatted as TK50 and you were only going to write small files. Since the TK70 drive (with a TK70 controller) is so much better, the better answer is to use the TK70 drive. However, as Adrian pointed out, once a tape is formatted as a TK50 tape, the TK70 will NOT be able to write to that tape UNLESS you first bulk erase the tape. Over a decade ago when I used the TK70 for a few years as my primary backup drive, I did a bulk erase of dozens of TK50 tapes and NEVER had a problem. Be VERY careful with a bulk eraser which is under powered - they tend to break very quickly if used for more than a few minutes. Instead, I fortunately found an old voice coil from a speaker that was powerful enough (about the size of my fist) and was able to bulk erase TK50 tapes by repeatedly moving the voice coil in a circular motion in contact with the plastic container of the TK50 / TK70 tapes first on one side, then the other for about 30 seconds. At that point, the tape could be INIT by the TK70 and then both TK70 read and write operations were possible. What is VERY helpful is that it is possible to COMPARE a BACKUP image file using BUP.SAV in RT-11 on a PDP-11/83 in about the same time as writing the image file - or about 7 minutes if I remember correctly for a full 32 MB image file of an RT-11 32 MB partition. A word of caution. KEEP the head cleaner solution handy. I used wooden Qtips and rarely kept the metal cover on any more since the tapes shed so much that cleaning is needed after less than an hour of TK70 usage. The actual head cleaning is fast, only a minute or two. If you have any more questions, please ask. Let us know if you are successful. How is the RX02 drive coming? Are you still using the RD53 drive? I haven't heard of anyone else being successful these days with an RD53 drive that has not had a lobotomy (sticky bumper pad removed from the head assembly). Jerome Fine From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 08:57:47 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:57:47 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS (Don North) Message-ID: > > From: Don North > Subject: Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS (Don North) > Message-ID: <498c12dd-437a-31ce-0a04-4602e50f6f55 at mindspring.com> > > There is a three PROM set 23-86[234]A9 for device code XM which is DDCMP > boot > over a DMC11/DMR11. Those PROMs are available and on my web page. > > I am not aware of the four PROM set you mention, but it could certainly be > a > custom one for that application. > > -- > Don North > AK6DN > > I looked in my notes. The 11/34s and KL10 talked through DMR11-ACs using the megabit COAX interface. Maybe the three PROM version that you have is the right one for this configuration, and there was another PROM on the M9312. -- Michael Thompson From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 12 09:38:27 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 15:38:27 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 12/06/2016 13:54, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Adrian Graham wrote: > >>> On 12/06/2016 12:15, "Rod Smallwood" >>> wrote: >> >>>>> Nearly there I think. I have loads of TK50 tapes to format. >>>>> >>>> I'm pretty sure the TK70 can only read TK50 tapes and not write to >>>> them... >>>> >>> Thanks Graham >>> >>> Now that sounds highly likely. Does the TK70 controller support the >>> TK50 drive perchance? >>> I have a TK 50 controller I can aways put that back in. >>> >> The TQK70 controller supports the TK50 drive, yes. If you're needing >> to bulk >> erase it might be easier/quicker to get hold of a degausser then just >> init >> before writing as necessary. >> > I seem to remember that Adrian is correct and that the TK70 > controller does support the TK50 drive. However, my question > would be "WHY?" use the TK50 drive if you have a TK70 drive? > > One answer would be if you had tapes already formatted as TK50 > and you were only going to write small files. > > Since the TK70 drive (with a TK70 controller) is so much better, > the better answer is to use the TK70 drive. However, as Adrian > pointed out, once a tape is formatted as a TK50 tape, the TK70 > will NOT be able to write to that tape UNLESS you first bulk > erase the tape. Over a decade ago when I used the TK70 for > a few years as my primary backup drive, I did a bulk erase of > dozens of TK50 tapes and NEVER had a problem. Be VERY > careful with a bulk eraser which is under powered - they tend > to break very quickly if used for more than a few minutes. > > Instead, I fortunately found an old voice coil from a speaker > that was powerful enough (about the size of my fist) and was > able to bulk erase TK50 tapes by repeatedly moving the voice > coil in a circular motion in contact with the plastic container of > the TK50 / TK70 tapes first on one side, then the other for > about 30 seconds. At that point, the tape could be INIT by > the TK70 and then both TK70 read and write operations were > possible. > > What is VERY helpful is that it is possible to COMPARE > a BACKUP image file using BUP.SAV in RT-11 on a > PDP-11/83 in about the same time as writing the image > file - or about 7 minutes if I remember correctly for a full > 32 MB image file of an RT-11 32 MB partition. > > A word of caution. KEEP the head cleaner solution handy. > I used wooden Qtips and rarely kept the metal cover on > any more since the tapes shed so much that cleaning is > needed after less than an hour of TK70 usage. The actual > head cleaning is fast, only a minute or two. > > If you have any more questions, please ask. Let us know > if you are successful. > > How is the RX02 drive coming? > > Are you still using the RD53 drive? I haven't heard of anyone > else being successful these days with an RD53 drive that has > not had a lobotomy (sticky bumper pad removed from the > head assembly). > > Jerome Fine Hi Jerome Firstly one important fact that I did not know. If you bulk erase a TK50 you can turn it into a TK70 tape with an INIT. Thank you I did not know that. Secondly I have made a little discovery. We all know the tapes go sticky and attach themselves to guide rollers etc. Well its not always the tape. I have three instances of tapes that would not feed or lace up where I got rid of the problem without doing anything to the tape at all. In fact all subsequent tapes have had no problems. It took 30 seconds and apart from taking the metal cover off the back off the drive I dismantled nothing. If I am right and can run a load of tapes through the drive. Then I'll say what I did. If I'm wrong then nobody will needlessly try my method. I will say its not cleaning the heads or the EOT sensors. You should do that any way. Its clear the way to go is bulk erase TK50 tapes and then to use the TK70 drive and controller. Was there ever a UNIBUS TQK70 controller? RX02 and a RX01 (I have one of each and a spare chassis) I'll be back to them when this tape situation is sorted. I had got to the stage where I could get commands through to the drive electronics RD53 - Yes out of a bag of scrap drives I managed to get the remains of a bump stop out and replace it. It produced one good drive which boots RT-11 every time. Regards Rod From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 12 10:19:38 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:19:38 -0400 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <575D7D8A.5080201@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > Firstly one important fact that I did not know. If you bulk > erase a TK50 you can turn it into a TK70 tape with an INIT. > Thank you I did not know that. A bulk erase was the first thing that seemed to be the solution since I had, fortunately, found a blank TK50 tape and was able to use it to both read and write in a TK70. There was a long discussion, probably a decade ago, about CompacTape, supposedly just for the TK50, and CompacTapeII, supposedly just for the TK70. From a Memorex internet site, probably over 10 years ago and long gone now, there was a table of all of the physical characteristics of CompacTape. While the tapes for even higher density drives were different, the physical properties of CompacTape (I) and CompacTapeII were IDENTICAL!!!! So that also gave me the confidence to use the CompacTape media in the TK70 drives - which gave excellent results. Let us know if you are finally successful with the TK70 drives and tapes. > Secondly I have made a little discovery. We all know the tapes > go sticky and attach themselves to guide rollers etc. > Well its not always the tape. I have three instances of tapes > that would not feed or lace up where I got rid of the problem > without doing anything to the tape at all. In fact all > subsequent tapes have had no problems. It took 30 seconds and > apart from taking the metal cover off the back off the drive I > dismantled nothing. > If I am right and can run a load of tapes through the drive. > Then I'll say what I did. If I'm wrong then nobody will needlessly try > my method. > I will say its not cleaning the heads or the EOT sensors. You > should do that any way. It would be appreciated if you would state what you did in any case. It is always helpful to know what has been tried and does not produce a result since it can be ignored in the future. > Its clear the way to go is bulk erase TK50 tapes and then to use > the TK70 drive and controller. > Was there ever a UNIBUS TQK70 controller? I never used Unibus, so I never found out. YES!! Bulk erase is easy and does work well. > RX02 and a RX01 (I have one of each and a spare chassis) > I'll be back to them when this tape situation is sorted. > I had got to the stage where I could get commands through to the > drive electronics I have an RX02 around which I have not used in a while. My preference, if I need the RX02 hardware is to use the DSD 880/30 which has an RX03 drive which can also function as an RX02 and also reads and writes RX01 media as well. My RX03 drive has been modified by placing a DPDT switch into the detection circuit for the single-sided vs double-sided sensors. That way, I can use any RX02 floppy media as double-sided without having to punch the extra holes. The DY.MAC device driver from V04.00 of RT-11 contained extra code to support double-sided operation, but that code was no longer present with the V05.00 of DY.MAC when it was released in 1983. So I added the code back and that made the DYX.SYS device driver under RT-11 able to support double-sided RX03 floppies. However, the boot code is still a bit stupid and can't boot a monitor file which is partly at the end of side 1 and continues onto side 2. > RD53 - Yes out of a bag of scrap drives I managed to get the > remains of a bump stop out and replace it. > It produced one good drive which boots RT-11 every time. I still have a few RD53 drives around which I stopped using. I also converted a couple of Micropolis 1325 drives to RD53 drives by adding jumper R7. I really don't use my PDP-11/83 very much since Ersatz-11 is really so much more convenient and my goal for RT-11 is only software bug fixes and enhancements. Jerome Fine From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jun 12 10:24:09 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:24:09 -0600 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 2016-06-12 06:54, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I seem to remember that Adrian is correct and that the TK70 > controller does support the TK50 drive. However, my question > would be "WHY?" use the TK50 drive if you have a TK70 drive? It is easier to exchange TK50 tapes than TK70? TK50 is plenty of space for RT11? ;-) Anyway, the TQK70 & TK50 combination I used a lot, as the larger buffers on the TQK70 keep the tape streaming ... Cheers From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 12 12:00:27 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:00:27 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <575D7D8A.5080201@compsys.to> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <575D7D8A.5080201@compsys.to> Message-ID: <86992dc9-2491-0172-7940-74346b4e0a17@btinternet.com> On 12/06/2016 16:19, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Firstly one important fact that I did not know. If you bulk >> erase a TK50 you can turn it into a TK70 tape with an INIT. >> Thank you I did not know that. > > A bulk erase was the first thing that seemed to be the solution > since I had, fortunately, found a blank TK50 tape and was > able to use it to both read and write in a TK70. There was > a long discussion, probably a decade ago, about CompacTape, > supposedly just for the TK50, and CompacTapeII, supposedly > just for the TK70. From a Memorex internet site, probably over > 10 years ago and long gone now, there was a table of all of the > physical characteristics of CompacTape. While the tapes for > even higher density drives were different, the physical properties > of CompacTape (I) and CompacTapeII were IDENTICAL!!!! > So that also gave me the confidence to use the CompacTape > media in the TK70 drives - which gave excellent results. > > Let us know if you are finally successful with the TK70 drives > and tapes. > >> Secondly I have made a little discovery. We all know the >> tapes go sticky and attach themselves to guide rollers etc. >> Well its not always the tape. I have three instances of tapes >> that would not feed or lace up where I got rid of the problem >> without doing anything to the tape at all. In fact all >> subsequent tapes have had no problems. It took 30 seconds and >> apart from taking the metal cover off the back off the drive I >> dismantled nothing. >> If I am right and can run a load of tapes through the drive. >> Then I'll say what I did. If I'm wrong then nobody will needlessly >> try my method. >> I will say its not cleaning the heads or the EOT sensors. You >> should do that any way. > > It would be appreciated if you would state what you did in any case. > It is always helpful to know what has been tried and does not produce > a result since it can be ignored in the future. > >> Its clear the way to go is bulk erase TK50 tapes and then to >> use the TK70 drive and controller. >> Was there ever a UNIBUS TQK70 controller? > > I never used Unibus, so I never found out. YES!! Bulk > erase is easy and does work well. > >> RX02 and a RX01 (I have one of each and a spare chassis) >> I'll be back to them when this tape situation is sorted. >> I had got to the stage where I could get commands through to the >> drive electronics > > I have an RX02 around which I have not used in a while. My > preference, if I need the RX02 hardware is to use the DSD 880/30 > which has an RX03 drive which can also function as an RX02 and > also reads and writes RX01 media as well. My RX03 drive has > been modified by placing a DPDT switch into the detection circuit > for the single-sided vs double-sided sensors. That way, I can use > any RX02 floppy media as double-sided without having to punch > the extra holes. The DY.MAC device driver from V04.00 of RT-11 > contained extra code to support double-sided operation, but that > code was no longer present with the V05.00 of DY.MAC when > it was released in 1983. So I added the code back and that > made the DYX.SYS device driver under RT-11 able to support > double-sided RX03 floppies. However, the boot code is still > a bit stupid and can't boot a monitor file which is partly at the > end of side 1 and continues onto side 2. > >> RD53 - Yes out of a bag of scrap drives I managed to get the >> remains of a bump stop out and replace it. >> It produced one good drive which boots RT-11 every time. > > I still have a few RD53 drives around which I stopped using. > I also converted a couple of Micropolis 1325 drives to > RD53 drives by adding jumper R7. I really don't use > my PDP-11/83 very much since Ersatz-11 is really so > much more convenient and my goal for RT-11 is only > software bug fixes and enhancements. > > Jerome Fine Thanks Jerome Rod From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 12 12:38:46 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:38:46 +0100 Subject: EVOX RIFA X2 capacitors Message-ID: Hi folks, Got a couple of Apple ][s that were rescued from a steelworks outbuilding and as usual they have ASTEC power supplies with .1uF and .01uf RIFA look-at-me-and-I'll-explode caps in and I'm running out of spares. What's the current considered replacement for these? There seems to be a wide range available with even wider ranging prices from EVOX, VISHAY, MATSUSHITA, PANASONIC (ok, matsushita again), Iskra, KEMET etc. Drowning in options, not just heavy rain :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jun 12 13:18:49 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:18:49 -0500 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <86992dc9-2491-0172-7940-74346b4e0a17@btinternet.com> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <575D7D8A.5080201@compsys.to> <86992dc9-2491-0172-7940-74346b4e0a17@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <575DA789.6030404@cimmeri.com> On 6/12/2016 12:00 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 12/06/2016 16:19, Jerome H. Fine > wrote: >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> Firstly one important fact >>> that I did not know. If you bulk >>> erase a TK50 you can turn it into a >>> TK70 tape with an INIT. >>> Thank you I did not know that. >> >> A bulk erase was the first thing that >> seemed to be the solution >> since I had, fortunately, found a >> blank TK50 tape and was >> able to use it to both read and write >> in a TK70. There was >> a long discussion, probably a decade >> ago, about CompacTape, >> supposedly just for the TK50, and >> CompacTapeII, supposedly >> just for the TK70. From a Memorex >> internet site, probably over >> 10 years ago and long gone now, there >> was a table of all of the >> physical characteristics of >> CompacTape. While the tapes for >> even higher density drives were >> different, the physical properties >> of CompacTape (I) and CompacTapeII >> were IDENTICAL!!!! >> So that also gave me the confidence >> to use the CompacTape >> media in the TK70 drives - which gave >> excellent results. >> >> Let us know if you are finally >> successful with the TK70 drives >> and tapes. >> >>> Secondly I have made a little >>> discovery. We all know the tapes go >>> sticky and attach themselves to >>> guide rollers etc. >>> Well its not always the tape. >>> I have three instances of tapes that >>> would not feed or lace up where I >>> got rid of the problem >>> without doing anything to the >>> tape at all. In fact all subsequent >>> tapes have had no problems. It >>> took 30 seconds and >>> apart from taking the metal >>> cover off the back off the drive I >>> dismantled nothing. >>> If I am right and can run a >>> load of tapes through the drive. >>> Then I'll say what I did. If I'm >>> wrong then nobody will needlessly >>> try my method. >>> I will say its not cleaning >>> the heads or the EOT sensors. You >>> should do that any way. >> >> It would be appreciated if you would >> state what you did in any case. >> It is always helpful to know what has >> been tried and does not produce >> a result since it can be ignored in >> the future. >> >>> Its clear the way to go is >>> bulk erase TK50 tapes and then to >>> use the TK70 drive and controller. >>> Was there ever a UNIBUS TQK70 >>> controller? >> >> I never used Unibus, so I never found >> out. YES!! Bulk >> erase is easy and does work well. >> >>> RX02 and a RX01 (I have one of >>> each and a spare chassis) >>> I'll be back to them when this >>> tape situation is sorted. >>> I had got to the stage where I >>> could get commands through to the >>> drive electronics >> >> I have an RX02 around which I have >> not used in a while. My >> preference, if I need the RX02 >> hardware is to use the DSD 880/30 >> which has an RX03 drive which can >> also function as an RX02 and >> also reads and writes RX01 media as >> well. My RX03 drive has >> been modified by placing a DPDT >> switch into the detection circuit >> for the single-sided vs double-sided >> sensors. That way, I can use >> any RX02 floppy media as double-sided >> without having to punch >> the extra holes. The DY.MAC device >> driver from V04.00 of RT-11 >> contained extra code to support >> double-sided operation, but that >> code was no longer present with the >> V05.00 of DY.MAC when >> it was released in 1983. So I added >> the code back and that >> made the DYX.SYS device driver under >> RT-11 able to support >> double-sided RX03 floppies. However, >> the boot code is still >> a bit stupid and can't boot a monitor >> file which is partly at the >> end of side 1 and continues onto side 2. >> >>> RD53 - Yes out of a bag of scrap >>> drives I managed to get the remains >>> of a bump stop out and replace it. >>> It produced one good >>> drive which boots RT-11 every time. >> >> I still have a few RD53 drives around >> which I stopped using. >> I also converted a couple of >> Micropolis 1325 drives to >> RD53 drives by adding jumper R7. I >> really don't use >> my PDP-11/83 very much since >> Ersatz-11 is really so >> much more convenient and my goal for >> RT-11 is only >> software bug fixes and enhancements. >> >> Jerome Fine > Thanks Jerome > > Rod Trim on long bottom posts, please. Especially if there's nothing interesting added at the bottom. - J. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 12 13:45:20 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:45:20 -0400 Subject: EVOX RIFA X2 capacitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <164D45B2-6060-4DE1-9480-45FF234E8E1D@comcast.net> > On Jun 12, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Got a couple of Apple ][s that were rescued from a steelworks outbuilding > and as usual they have ASTEC power supplies with .1uF and .01uf RIFA > look-at-me-and-I'll-explode caps in and I'm running out of spares. > > What's the current considered replacement for these? There seems to be a > wide range available with even wider ranging prices from EVOX, VISHAY, > MATSUSHITA, PANASONIC (ok, matsushita again), Iskra, KEMET etc. Explode? Those are ceramics caps, right? Are these the line inlet filter caps, or later on? For line inlet, you need line rated caps, which have quite high voltage ratings for good margin. Apart from that, I would think they should all work. I've used Panasonic caps before, but Matsushita, Vishay and Kemet are also names I know and would use. I don't know Evox or Iskra. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 12 13:49:23 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:49:23 +0000 Subject: EVOX RIFA X2 capacitors In-Reply-To: <164D45B2-6060-4DE1-9480-45FF234E8E1D@comcast.net> References: , <164D45B2-6060-4DE1-9480-45FF234E8E1D@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Explode? Those are ceramics caps, right? Are these the line inlet The ones I have seen are metalised paper and do have a deserved reputation for being antisocial. They split open and emit clouds of evil-smelling magic smoke. > filter caps, or later on? For line inlet, you need line rated caps, which > have quite high voltage ratings for good margin. Apart from that, I IIRC, the 'X2' marking means they are designed to be connected across the mains (from live to neutral). A 'Y' or 'Y2' (which is designed so it cannot fail short-circuit) is used between one side of the mains and safety earth (ground). The latter generally have a smaller capacitance than the former. I suspect any known brand would be OK. I must admit I never buy components on E-bay, I go to somewhere like RS components or Farnell. They may be more expensive, but it is less of a gamble. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 12 13:57:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:57:00 -0700 Subject: EVOX RIFA X2 capacitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575DB07C.2050100@sydex.com> On 06/12/2016 10:38 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Got a couple of Apple ][s that were rescued from a steelworks > outbuilding and as usual they have ASTEC power supplies with .1uF and > .01uf RIFA look-at-me-and-I'll-explode caps in and I'm running out of > spares. > > What's the current considered replacement for these? There seems to > be a wide range available with even wider ranging prices from EVOX, > VISHAY, MATSUSHITA, PANASONIC (ok, matsushita again), Iskra, KEMET > etc. > > Drowning in options, not just heavy rain :) The vendor doesn't matter much, but I use polypropylene safety caps mostly because they tend to be closer in size to the nasty Rifas. Just make sure that the device has the proper safety rating. PP caps are quite stable. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 12 14:13:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:13:10 -0700 Subject: am8052 In-Reply-To: <4cee03b4-8093-9fca-1bc8-0f4aa02a8d3f@e-bbes.com> References: <4cee03b4-8093-9fca-1bc8-0f4aa02a8d3f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <575DB446.5060602@sydex.com> On 06/11/2016 07:04 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, anybody know, which system used it? It is a 1986 CRT > controller, which was pretty fancy back then. But never saw actual > hardware with it ... > The am8052 isn't a general-purpose CRT controller, but an *alphanumeric* one; that is, it does text, not graphics. It has wide attribute and proportional spacing support, which does set it apart from the usual fixed-pitch crowd. Intel announced a similar product, the 82730, around 1984. Same deal--advanced text display. I recall that preliminary prices quoted made it hugely expensive. I don't know if it ever made it to production either. I don't know of a product that used either chip, but I'd concentrate on the word-processing world for my search. --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 12 14:29:07 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:29:07 +0100 Subject: EVOX RIFA X2 capacitors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/06/2016 19:49, "tony duell" wrote: > >> Explode? Those are ceramics caps, right? Are these the line inlet > > The ones I have seen are metalised paper and do have a deserved > reputation for being antisocial. They split open and emit clouds of > evil-smelling magic smoke. Yep. Famous here in the UK for being used in every single Acorn BBC Micro PSU (also ASTEC) plus a lot of monitors and TVs of that era. Classrooms all over the land with that oh-so-familiar smell. Also my kitchen on Monday night. >> filter caps, or later on? For line inlet, you need line rated caps, which >> have quite high voltage ratings for good margin. Apart from that, I > > IIRC, the 'X2' marking means they are designed to be connected across the > mains (from live to neutral). A 'Y' or 'Y2' (which is designed so it cannot > fail short-circuit) is used between one side of the mains and safety earth > (ground). According to my reading whilst not cleaning filthy Apple ][s that's correct. > I suspect any known brand would be OK. I must admit I never buy components > on E-bay, I go to somewhere like RS components or Farnell. They may be more > expensive, but it is less of a gamble. Exact modern replacements are roughly ukp2 each from Farnell which is half the price of some ebay chancers, some other reading I was doing suggested EVOX/KEMET or WIMA so that'll do me. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 12 14:31:17 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:31:17 +0000 Subject: EVOX RIFA X2 capacitors In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > > > The ones I have seen are metalised paper and do have a deserved > > reputation for being antisocial. They split open and emit clouds of > > evil-smelling magic smoke. > > Yep. Famous here in the UK for being used in every single Acorn BBC Micro > PSU (also ASTEC) plus a lot of monitors and TVs of that era. Classrooms all > over the land with that oh-so-familiar smell. Also my kitchen on Monday > night. They turn up everywhere. A couple of months back I was upgrading a TRS-80 Model 4 for a friend. It had a couple of said capacitors which filled my Large Machine Room with magic smoke... Also found them in HP machines. Fortunately, they don't do much other damage when they go. They do not catch fire in my experience. They may blow a fuse or trip the RCD in the consumer unit if you are unlucky, but nothing worse. > Exact modern replacements are roughly ukp2 each from Farnell which is half > the price of some ebay chancers, some other reading I was doing suggested > EVOX/KEMET or WIMA so that'll do me. I think I would go for those. Actually, while we all moan about the original RIFA ones, they have lasted over 30 years in most cases. I don't think that's too bad. If the replacements last as long then I won't complain. -tony From cctalk at snarc.net Sun Jun 12 14:36:30 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 15:36:30 -0400 Subject: VCF - can't get in again. In-Reply-To: <5e1b81e1-ce50-c0e6-9b2f-4d517e96aadd@btinternet.com> References: <5e1b81e1-ce50-c0e6-9b2f-4d517e96aadd@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <575DB9BE.3050404@snarc.net> > Would you believe it. > > VCF forum is up to its old tricks again. > > Same old thing. Can't log in > > Last time I got told I had registered when I had not. > > Just like the banks your PIN number was used so it must have been you. > > Our software can never be at fault. The user is always wrong. What else do you want us to do? You already know that we deleted your old accounts and let you make a new one. There are thousands of members, you're the only one having this issue. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 14:37:02 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:37:02 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> <478AE1B4-F029-4460-8683-F58A860B14AB@nf6x.net> <3D0FAE29-9F89-476E-8CD0-4D1F0085BFCC@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <4BBDACAD-7EA5-434A-B948-0F4107997258@nf6x.net> Disk testing update: I have the controller in slot 11 still, and the drive interface cable is connected to the edge paddle that appears to be wire-wrapped to slot 11. I haven't tried it in slot 10 using edge connector P4 yet, because I think I might need to fiddle with the two blue wires (bus grant? interrupt?) I see patched between the slots to do that, and I haven't studied what they do yet. Pictures of the backplane can be found on my blog: http://www.nf6x.net/2016/06/data-general-nova-3-backplane/ Bootstrap from the drive channel still doesn't seem to work. The bootstrap loader does appear to be loaded into RAM, and the loader remains looping at 000377, which never gets overwritten with a word from the drive channel. Reading the drive status register always returns 0 so far. But, I do seem to be talking to the drive, because I think I can make it seek! I cobbled together the following program and assembled it with Toby Thain's assembler found here: http://www.telegraphics.com.au/sw/info/dpa.html 02 .TITL dsktst1 03 .LOC 0 05 00000 062477 START: IORST ; Reset I/O channels 06 00001 060633 DIAC 0, DKP ; Drive status register to AC0 07 00002 065433 DIB 1, DKP ; Drive mem addr register to AC1 08 00003 072433 DIC 2, DKP ; Drive disk addr register to AC2 09 00004 034010 LDA 3, SEEK ; Load seek command to AC3 10 00005 075133 DOAS 3, DKP ; Do seek 11 00006 074433 POLL: DIA 3, DKP ; Poll drive status to AC3... 12 00007 000006 JMP POLL ; ...forever 14 00010 003220 SEEK: 003220 ; Seek cyl 620(8): 15 ; 0 0000 1 10 10010000 16 ; -> 0 000 011 010 010 000 17 .END START This resets the I/O channel, reads the three drive registers into AC0-AC2, issues a near full seek command, then repeatedly polls the drive status register into AC0. I think. Running the program after a fresh drive load->ready sequence causes the drive to emit an audible clunk, so I believe that it is performing the seek! However, stopping the program and examining the accumulators shows that they all contain 0. Incidentally, I see that the assembler I used assembles IORST as 062477, thus clearing the start and done flags. However, other sample programs I have seen show IORST as 062677, which issues a pulse instead of clearing start/done. I did not observe any difference in behavior in my test program when I tried both IORST varieties. Can any Nova experts chime in on any hidden gotchas that might lurk around this? So, back to the task at hand: It seems that the CPU can talk to the drive, but maybe the drive can't talk back to the CPU? I think I'll work on bringing up a memory test next before I look at the hard drive some more. BTW, the console is running at 4800 baud, while I expected it to be at 9600 baud based on the strapping. That needs some more investigation, too. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 14:40:58 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:40:58 -0700 Subject: EVOX RIFA X2 capacitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5700551B-3F3A-4750-AF12-94887A62379F@nf6x.net> Those Rifa paper-dielectric caps are very common in the Astec power supplies that I have found in most of my TRS-80 gear. After having one cook off on me in my Model 12, I replace them all on sight with Panasonic safety-rated poly film caps. My hypothesis is that moisture gets into the paper dielectric through the visible cracks that I have seen in the outer case of every single 80s-era Rifa cap I've looked at. Since poly film caps are supposed to be much less prone to absorbing moisture than paper dielectric caps, even when their outer seal fails, I expect the poly film caps to last much longer. I can look up the part numbers from Digi-Key that I used if necessary. I think that any safety-rated poly film caps with suitable lead spacings, same or higher voltage ratings, and similar capacitance should be fine. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 12 14:46:20 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:46:20 +0100 Subject: EVOX RIFA X2 capacitors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/06/2016 20:31, "tony duell" wrote: > They turn up everywhere. A couple of months back I was upgrading a TRS-80 > Model 4 for a friend. It had a couple of said capacitors which filled my > Large Machine Room with magic smoke... Also found them in HP machines. > Fortunately, they don't do much other damage when they go. They do > not catch fire in my experience. They may blow a fuse or trip the RCD in > the consumer unit if you are unlucky, but nothing worse. Or make a co-worker absolutely lose his shit because a cooling fan blows the smoke forcibly outwards :) > Actually, while we all moan about the original RIFA ones, they have lasted > over 30 years in most cases. I don't think that's too bad. If the replacements > last as long then I won't complain. True, and most of the time I know to check first to see if there are any present and what state they're in - this Apple one is about to go. Monday's was in the monitor of an ICL One-per-desk (aka a Sinclair QL with beefed up innards and redesigned microdrives) and I just forgot to look. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 12 14:49:08 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:49:08 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <575DA789.6030404@cimmeri.com> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <575D7D8A.5080201@compsys.to> <86992dc9-2491-0172-7940-74346b4e0a17@btinternet.com> <575DA789.6030404@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <504bbaac-48d3-3db9-f1e8-990b66c735f4@btinternet.com> On 12/06/2016 19:18, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 6/12/2016 12:00 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> On 12/06/2016 16:19, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>>> Firstly one important fact that I did not know. If you bulk >>>> erase a TK50 you can turn it into a TK70 tape with an INIT. >>>> Thank you I did not know that. >>> >>> A bulk erase was the first thing that seemed to be the solution >>> since I had, fortunately, found a blank TK50 tape and was >>> able to use it to both read and write in a TK70. There was >>> a long discussion, probably a decade ago, about CompacTape, >>> supposedly just for the TK50, and CompacTapeII, supposedly >>> just for the TK70. From a Memorex internet site, probably over >>> 10 years ago and long gone now, there was a table of all of the >>> physical characteristics of CompacTape. While the tapes for >>> even higher density drives were different, the physical properties >>> of CompacTape (I) and CompacTapeII were IDENTICAL!!!! >>> So that also gave me the confidence to use the CompacTape >>> media in the TK70 drives - which gave excellent results. >>> >>> Let us know if you are finally successful with the TK70 drives >>> and tapes. >>> >>>> Secondly I have made a little discovery. We all know the >>>> tapes go sticky and attach themselves to guide rollers etc. >>>> Well its not always the tape. I have three instances of >>>> tapes that would not feed or lace up where I got rid of the problem >>>> without doing anything to the tape at all. In fact all >>>> subsequent tapes have had no problems. It took 30 seconds and >>>> apart from taking the metal cover off the back off the drive >>>> I dismantled nothing. >>>> If I am right and can run a load of tapes through the drive. >>>> Then I'll say what I did. If I'm wrong then nobody will needlessly >>>> try my method. >>>> I will say its not cleaning the heads or the EOT sensors. You >>>> should do that any way. >>> >>> It would be appreciated if you would state what you did in any case. >>> It is always helpful to know what has been tried and does not produce >>> a result since it can be ignored in the future. >>> >>>> Its clear the way to go is bulk erase TK50 tapes and then to >>>> use the TK70 drive and controller. >>>> Was there ever a UNIBUS TQK70 controller? >>> >>> I never used Unibus, so I never found out. YES!! Bulk >>> erase is easy and does work well. >>> >>>> RX02 and a RX01 (I have one of each and a spare chassis) >>>> I'll be back to them when this tape situation is sorted. >>>> I had got to the stage where I could get commands through to >>>> the drive electronics >>> >>> I have an RX02 around which I have not used in a while. My >>> preference, if I need the RX02 hardware is to use the DSD 880/30 >>> which has an RX03 drive which can also function as an RX02 and >>> also reads and writes RX01 media as well. My RX03 drive has >>> been modified by placing a DPDT switch into the detection circuit >>> for the single-sided vs double-sided sensors. That way, I can use >>> any RX02 floppy media as double-sided without having to punch >>> the extra holes. The DY.MAC device driver from V04.00 of RT-11 >>> contained extra code to support double-sided operation, but that >>> code was no longer present with the V05.00 of DY.MAC when >>> it was released in 1983. So I added the code back and that >>> made the DYX.SYS device driver under RT-11 able to support >>> double-sided RX03 floppies. However, the boot code is still >>> a bit stupid and can't boot a monitor file which is partly at the >>> end of side 1 and continues onto side 2. >>> >>>> RD53 - Yes out of a bag of scrap drives I managed to get the >>>> remains of a bump stop out and replace it. >>>> It produced one good drive which boots RT-11 every >>>> time. >>> >>> I still have a few RD53 drives around which I stopped using. >>> I also converted a couple of Micropolis 1325 drives to >>> RD53 drives by adding jumper R7. I really don't use >>> my PDP-11/83 very much since Ersatz-11 is really so >>> much more convenient and my goal for RT-11 is only >>> software bug fixes and enhancements. >>> >>> Jerome Fine >> Thanks Jerome >> >> Rod > > > Trim on long bottom posts, please. Especially if there's nothing > interesting added at the bottom. > > - J. > > ..--.. I trimmed it to a one line answer. That's as short as I can go From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jun 12 15:03:13 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 16:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UNIBUS extension card/cable sets Message-ID: <20160612200313.2D68718C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I previously: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2015-June/006953.html wrote: >> I see 'three' different kinds of 'UNIBUS to cables' cards listed: >> M9014 UNIBUS to 3 H854s >> M9015 3 H854s to UNIBUS >> M9031 UNIBUS to 3 3M cables for 11/74 >> M9042 UNIBUS to 3 H854, Dual > So I have compared an M9014 and an M9042; the former is a 'normal' > height dual module, the latter is a 'short' dual module. I suspect that > they have the same pinout on the Berg headers; I tried a couple of > UNIBUS signals, and they led to the same pin on the Bergs on the two > different units. > If and when I get energetic I will make a complete pinout list for the > two units (I haven't been able to find any documentation on any of them > online). I have completed this pinout list, and it is now documented here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIBUS_H854_header_pinout I have also verified that both the M9014 and M9042 use the exact same pinout. If _anyone_ has either an M9015, or an M9031, can they please let me know? I'd like to document exactly what they are. (I have this sneaky suspicion that the numbers were allocated, but the cards never built: for the UNIBUS, unlike the QBUS, you can use the same card on each end of a set of flat cables - that's because the UNIBUS dual connector does not have separate 'grant in' and 'grant out' pins, unlike the QBUS.) Since BC11A cables are now very hard to find, and the white flexible printed circuit flat cables (I think that's the correct jargon, can someone please correct me if I got that wrong) used in them is probably not obtainable now (outside a special order), I suspect we may soon be using pairs of these cards (they are very simple), along with a 3-set of 40-conductor (2x20 pin headers) in place of them. But that's for another day! Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 12 15:13:05 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:13:05 +0100 Subject: VCF - can't get in again. In-Reply-To: <575DB9BE.3050404@snarc.net> References: <5e1b81e1-ce50-c0e6-9b2f-4d517e96aadd@btinternet.com> <575DB9BE.3050404@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5a2e0143-5c7a-2b5a-6504-549554e9af2d@btinternet.com> On 12/06/2016 20:36, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Would you believe it. >> >> VCF forum is up to its old tricks again. >> >> Same old thing. Can't log in >> >> Last time I got told I had registered when I had not. >> >> Just like the banks your PIN number was used so it must have been you. >> >> Our software can never be at fault. The user is always wrong. > > What else do you want us to do? You already know that we deleted your > old accounts and let you make a new one. There are thousands of > members, you're the only one having this issue. Hi Evan You missed the next email that said it works now thanks. One thing I did want to ask was, there was some debate about an original signed Apple. I couldn't make out if there was or was an announcement or if it did or did not get sold. Also what had northern California go to do with it? R From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jun 12 15:41:18 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 15:41:18 -0500 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <504bbaac-48d3-3db9-f1e8-990b66c735f4@btinternet.com> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <575D7D8A.5080201@compsys.to> <86992dc9-2491-0172-7940-74346b4e0a17@btinternet.com> <575DA789.6030404@cimmeri.com> <504bbaac-48d3-3db9-f1e8-990b66c735f4@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <575DC8EE.8020002@cimmeri.com> On 6/12/2016 2:49 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 12/06/2016 19:18, js at cimmeri.com > wrote: >> >> >> On 6/12/2016 12:00 PM, Rod Smallwood >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/06/2016 16:19, Jerome H. Fine >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I still have a few RD53 drives >>>> around which I stopped using. >>>> I also converted a couple of >>>> Micropolis 1325 drives to >>>> RD53 drives by adding jumper R7. I >>>> really don't use >>>> my PDP-11/83 very much since >>>> Ersatz-11 is really so >>>> much more convenient and my goal >>>> for RT-11 is only >>>> software bug fixes and enhancements. >>>> >>>> Jerome Fine >>> Thanks Jerome >>> >>> Rod >> >> >> Trim on long bottom posts, please. >> Especially if there's nothing >> interesting added at the bottom. >> >> - J. >> >> > ..--.. I trimmed it to a one line > answer. That's as short as I can go > I was referring to most of the repeated material above your one line answer. - J. From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Sun Jun 12 15:46:17 2016 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:46:17 -0700 Subject: LASM compatible cross assembler? In-Reply-To: <211A408B-7B1E-4E5F-A48E-2F0AE1726B64@fozztexx.com> References: <211A408B-7B1E-4E5F-A48E-2F0AE1726B64@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <7FC35CE5-3223-4112-9013-07BF59FA1A46@fozztexx.com> On Jun 9, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Chris Osborn wrote: > Is there a LASM compatible assembler out there with source available that I can run on Linux? Well there is now! I spent yesterday working on it and I coded up something myself in Python. It pre-processes assembly files that were intended to be assembled with LASM and then feeds them through the AS Macroassembler. The only things I've tried so far are Kermit sources and the CP/M 2.2 source and the hex files I'm getting are identical to using LASM on CP/M. I'm not really sure how much use this will be for others since I think most projects used Z80 assembly instead of the more limited 8080 assembly. But perhaps there are some projects out there that used LASM style 8080 and other people can make use of a cross assembler to avoid having to alter the original code. You can get it from here: http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/259 -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From pye at mactec.com.au Sun Jun 12 19:04:26 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:04:26 +1000 Subject: Strange ICs on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66A3064D-1181-4DC3-B534-C192DF6B80F7@mactec.com.au> > On 11 Jun 2016, at 11:16 am, Ali Fahimi, M.D. wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 > Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... > -Ali They are similar to the LED displays used on the Rockwell AIM-65 From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 19:08:45 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 17:08:45 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova object formats Message-ID: <59E3EB6A-2EFC-4620-829B-DA750D591D56@nf6x.net> I have been able to use my Data General Nova 3's Program Load function to load in the 091-000036-01 self-loading bootstrap program, and then use that bootstrap to load in absolute binary tape images from *.ab files, all over the TTI channel from a terminal emulator. Now, I'm trying to hack Toby Thain's Nova assembler to emit auto-loading images by prepending the self-loading bootstrap to the assembled program, with a binary patch to make the bootstrap jump straight into the absolute binary loader rather than halting at address 000121. It seems to me that I should be able to use this scheme to assemble programs which I can then Program Load through the TTI channel, and simply send the image over the serial port from a terminal emulator. I have the assembler hacked up to prepend the patched loader, and the patch I made seems to cause the bootstrap to jump right into the absolute binary loader; I simply replaced the HALT that ended up in 000120 with a JMP 000121. However, the binary loader continues running after presumably digesting the data that followed the bootstrap. Toby's assembler outputs "relocatable binary" code in .rb files, and I don't understand if/how that differs from the "absolute binary" format in the .ab tape images that I can successfully load. I'll continue researching, but I'd appreciate it if anybody might be able to provide any clues to dispel my confusion. Regarding my hacked up assembler, I don't know whether it's advisable to post it publicly after getting it working, since it'll have original DGC binary code embedded in it. Opinions? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 19:39:06 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 17:39:06 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova object formats In-Reply-To: <59E3EB6A-2EFC-4620-829B-DA750D591D56@nf6x.net> References: <59E3EB6A-2EFC-4620-829B-DA750D591D56@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <3E275010-8EAA-4A46-9B88-A4F409658D2D@nf6x.net> Ok, I've found a description of the .rb format in manual 093-000081-02 for the Macro Assembler, and a description of the .ab format in manual 093-000003-06 for the Binary Loader. Now, off to dig into Toby's assembler some more to figure out how to make it emit absolute binary! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 12 19:49:12 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 00:49:12 +0000 Subject: Strange ICs on eBay In-Reply-To: <66A3064D-1181-4DC3-B534-C192DF6B80F7@mactec.com.au> References: , <66A3064D-1181-4DC3-B534-C192DF6B80F7@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: They are apha-numeric LED displays. They seem to have extra pins the my be decimal points. Nothing otherwise unusual. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chris Pye Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 5:04:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Strange ICs on eBay > On 11 Jun 2016, at 11:16 am, Ali Fahimi, M.D. wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone knows what these chips are for/from/etc. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/152124208945 > Interesting look to them. I would say EPROM but the magnifying window is weird... > -Ali They are similar to the LED displays used on the Rockwell AIM-65 From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jun 12 22:02:13 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:02:13 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova object formats In-Reply-To: <3E275010-8EAA-4A46-9B88-A4F409658D2D@nf6x.net> References: <59E3EB6A-2EFC-4620-829B-DA750D591D56@nf6x.net> <3E275010-8EAA-4A46-9B88-A4F409658D2D@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <07f887c9-399c-891c-143e-342276a8a290@jwsss.com> On 6/12/2016 5:39 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Ok, I've found a description of the .rb format in manual 093-000081-02 for the Macro Assembler, and a description of the .ab format in manual 093-000003-06 for the Binary Loader. Now, off to dig into Toby's assembler some more to figure out how to make it emit absolute binary! > Is there a linker included in his toolchain? That is where you need to look. If it is designed to run for an OS, or with an smart loader, it will take in object modules and emit them with relocatable addressing resolution still required. There should be some linker control to do placement like you wish to have it do, which would be absolute binary with the loader directives other than object addresses and text gone. thanks Jim From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 22:19:12 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:19:12 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova object formats In-Reply-To: <07f887c9-399c-891c-143e-342276a8a290@jwsss.com> References: <59E3EB6A-2EFC-4620-829B-DA750D591D56@nf6x.net> <3E275010-8EAA-4A46-9B88-A4F409658D2D@nf6x.net> <07f887c9-399c-891c-143e-342276a8a290@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <19B9BEE8-B517-4805-B12D-5D063BDB9E8C@nf6x.net> > On Jun 12, 2016, at 20:02, jwsmobile wrote: > Is there a linker included in his toolchain? That is where you need to look. If it is designed to run for an OS, or with an smart loader, it will take in object modules and emit them with relocatable addressing resolution still required. > > There should be some linker control to do placement like you wish to have it do, which would be absolute binary with the loader directives other than object addresses and text gone. There's no linker in the toolchain. There is an object dumper utility that the author suggested I look at. I'm presently hacking that relocatable binary dumper into an absolute binary converter, with the ability to prepend the auto program loader bootstrap, and the constraint that it only supports absolute code. I think that should be sufficient for my current purpose, which is writing short and simple test programs which I can then bootstrap over the TTI channel. Adding proper linking capabilities may be a good thing in the future. Anyway, I've pulled out my hacks of the assembler itself, since the object dumper is an easier place to splice in the absolute binary conversion. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jun 12 22:19:29 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 23:19:29 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova object formats In-Reply-To: <07f887c9-399c-891c-143e-342276a8a290@jwsss.com> References: <59E3EB6A-2EFC-4620-829B-DA750D591D56@nf6x.net> <3E275010-8EAA-4A46-9B88-A4F409658D2D@nf6x.net> <07f887c9-399c-891c-143e-342276a8a290@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <8c6bd00e-520b-8d2a-52b9-1f6be2ed3511@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-12 11:02 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 6/12/2016 5:39 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> Ok, I've found a description of the .rb format in manual 093-000081-02 >> for the Macro Assembler, and a description of the .ab format in manual >> 093-000003-06 for the Binary Loader. Now, off to dig into Toby's >> assembler some more to figure out how to make it emit absolute binary! >> > Is there a linker included in his toolchain? That is where you need to No, there is no linker. It was intended to be compatible with the RDOS tools, but I never built a complete toolchain. I don't actually own a Nova, although I think it's a fun machine -- this was inspired by a Nova that I helped a friend obtain. > look. If it is designed to run for an OS, or with an smart loader, it > will take in object modules and emit them with relocatable addressing > resolution still required. > > There should be some linker control to do placement like you wish to > have it do, which would be absolute binary with the loader directives > other than object addresses and text gone. It's pretty easy to hack up a tool to do that much, I think. There is an RB parsing utility in the source code. --Toby > > thanks > Jim > > From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sun Jun 12 22:55:40 2016 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:55:40 -0600 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: <3D0FAE29-9F89-476E-8CD0-4D1F0085BFCC@nf6x.net> References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> <478AE1B4-F029-4460-8683-F58A860B14AB@nf6x.net> <3D0FAE29-9F89-476E-8CD0-4D1F0085BFCC@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <4bf8138f-23fb-390f-277a-93d577b8dc75@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Mark - Brief notes... 1) DG part numbers are 005-xxxxxx-yy; 107-xxxxxx-yy numbers are circuit board artwork numbers. Unfortunately, there is no standard cross-reference between the two. Briefly, the part number is the primary reference to be used because a single 107-xxxxxx-yy circuit board may actually contain multiple 005-xxxxxx-yy parts. The 005-xxxxxx-yy part number usually exists on a label attached to the 15"x15" board stiffener (the side opposite the finger edge connectors). Later DG boards also had an "A" number in addition to the product number ("T"), so if both exist the "T 005-xxxxxx-yy" number determines the exact board function(s). 2) Slot 5 looks like it was also wired for a serial port board (4010 or 4075) at one time since backplane pins A85 and B69 are wired to someplace in the backplane's paddleboard area. But at this point the Interrupt priority and Data Channel priority daisy chains have been jumpered over the slot position to bypass the empty slot. (pins A93/A94, A95/A96) 3) One integral backplane edge connector may have a black "bus terminator" plug to reduce noise on the bus. All DG terminators had a 005- number on 'em for identification. 4) 4075 TTY baudrate pretty easy to check; usually 4800 or 9600 baud, 7 data, even parity, 1 stop bit. 5) The 4060 board probably goes in slot 12 - wire-wrap wires go from slot 12 backplane pins to standard DG 4083 MUX connector distribution panel (the 16 row by 9 (+ 3) inline pins for each of the 4 serial ports plus 12 unused ports). 6) 4046 disc controller board in slot 11 - wire-wrap wires seem to go from slot 11 to edge connector. Bruce From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 12 23:07:47 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:07:47 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova 3 and 6045 Drive Questions In-Reply-To: <4bf8138f-23fb-390f-277a-93d577b8dc75@Wild-Hare.com> References: <8A70C9B2-A7B4-42D8-94E5-AEA0627C13F1@nf6x.net> <59c31ad1-4df5-e1b5-b1a2-3bcf027c1245@Wild-Hare.com> <478AE1B4-F029-4460-8683-F58A860B14AB@nf6x.net> <3D0FAE29-9F89-476E-8CD0-4D1F0085BFCC@nf6x.net> <4bf8138f-23fb-390f-277a-93d577b8dc75@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 12, 2016, at 20:55, Bruce Ray wrote: > > G'day Mark - > > Brief notes... Thanks! > 4) 4075 TTY baudrate pretty easy to check; usually 4800 or 9600 baud, 7 data, even parity, 1 stop bit. I determined earlier today that I had merely had a brain fart regarding the strapping. The card was strapped for 4800, and I successfully reconfigured it for 9600. > 6) 4046 disc controller board in slot 11 - wire-wrap wires seem to go from slot 11 to edge connector. Is there any specific reason you know of for the card to have been installed in slot 11 and requiring a laborious paddle board wiring job, rather than plugging it into slot 10 and using the P4 connector? I am able to seek the drive heads, but can't seem to get any data or status back from it yet. I'm working on that assembler side project to make it easier to write up test programs to try out drive functions and debug things. I ran one of the memory checkerboard tests for quite a while without any apparent failures. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jun 13 02:17:59 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 00:17:59 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova object formats In-Reply-To: <8c6bd00e-520b-8d2a-52b9-1f6be2ed3511@telegraphics.com.au> References: <59E3EB6A-2EFC-4620-829B-DA750D591D56@nf6x.net> <3E275010-8EAA-4A46-9B88-A4F409658D2D@nf6x.net> <07f887c9-399c-891c-143e-342276a8a290@jwsss.com> <8c6bd00e-520b-8d2a-52b9-1f6be2ed3511@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On Jun 12, 2016, at 20:19, Toby Thain wrote: > > It's pretty easy to hack up a tool to do that much, I think. There is an RB parsing utility in the source code. I've modified that RB parser to output AB, for inputs that do not require any relocation. Testing was very minimal... I managed to use Program Load to bootstrap the little test program I shared yesterday in my 6045 drive thread after assembling it with Toby's dga, then converting it to a self-loading, self-executing image with the modified parser. I simply set the switches to 000010 (the TTI channel), hit PROGRAM LOAD, then sent the image with a terminal emulator. After the image transferred, the drive clunked as it did a full-stroke seek. I then halted the program and used the console to verify that the program got loaded as intended. Now, I can use this to write additional test programs to debug my disk drive! For example, I'll probably write one that polls the DONE flag after a seek to see if the I/O status flags are working despite status register reads returning zero. It's early work, and likely to be buggy, but here's my fork: https://github.com/NF6X/dpa -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bear at typewritten.org Sun Jun 12 20:33:43 2016 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:33:43 -0700 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> On Jun 12, 2016, at 7:38 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well its not always the tape. I have three instances of tapes that would not feed or lace up where I got rid of the problem without doing anything to the tape at all. In fact all subsequent tapes have had no problems. It took 30 seconds and apart from taking the metal cover off the back off the drive I dismantled nothing. > If I am right and can run a load of tapes through the drive. Then I'll say what I did. If I'm wrong then nobody will needlessly try my method. > I will say its not cleaning the heads or the EOT sensors. You should do that any way. The metal tape path rollers are used as tachometers to make sure the tape is feeding at the correct speed. If the tape drags over them, the firmware will consider the transport jammed and abort. A drop or two of light machine oil over the axle has been enough to get the rollers moving again on my TK50s where this failure mode has occurred. There are multiple failure domains involved. Lubricating the feed roller spindles doesn't solve the sticky tape problem. ok bear. -- until further notice From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 13 02:04:14 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 08:04:14 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On 13/06/2016 02:33, r.stricklin wrote: > On Jun 12, 2016, at 7:38 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Well its not always the tape. I have three instances of tapes that would not feed or lace up where I got rid of the problem without doing anything to the tape at all. In fact all subsequent tapes have had no problems. It took 30 seconds and apart from taking the metal cover off the back off the drive I dismantled nothing. >> If I am right and can run a load of tapes through the drive. Then I'll say what I did. If I'm wrong then nobody will needlessly try my method. I will say its not cleaning the heads or the EOT sensors. You should do that any way. > The metal tape path rollers are used as tachometers to make sure the tape is feeding at the correct speed. If the tape drags over them, the firmware will consider the transport jammed and abort. A drop or two of light machine oil over the axle has been enough to get the rollers moving again on my TK50s where this failure mode has occurred. > > There are multiple failure domains involved. Lubricating the feed roller spindles doesn't solve the sticky tape problem. > > > ok > bear. We have a winner !!! yes that's what I did. I had a small bottle of oil that came with my electric razor (Braun pronounced Brown not Brawn) It even had a fine nozzle. This is what you do. Press each roller down (They are sprung) if they do not spring back up quickly. then press down again to reveal the top of the shaft. One tiny drop only where the roller meets the shaft Do not spin or press the rollers. Of course it doesn't fix the sticky tape problem. But it will stop good tapes going in the trash. I have also been trying bulk erasing tapes and had partial success. I used a six inch magnet that holds my mobile antenna onto the car. On INIT it no longer says write protect but it still falls over after about a minute. Rod From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jun 13 09:33:14 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:33:14 -0400 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <575EC42A.4000002@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On 13/06/2016 02:33, r.stricklin wrote: > >> The metal tape path rollers are used as tachometers to make sure the >> tape is feeding at the correct speed. If the tape drags over them, >> the firmware will consider the transport jammed and abort. A drop or >> two of light machine oil over the axle has been enough to get the >> rollers moving again on my TK50s where this failure mode has occurred. >> >> There are multiple failure domains involved. Lubricating the feed >> roller spindles doesn't solve the sticky tape problem. >> >> ok >> bear. > > We have a winner !!! yes that's what I did. > I had a small bottle of oil that came with my electric razor (Braun > pronounced Brown not Brawn) > It even had a fine nozzle. This is what you do. > Press each roller down (They are sprung) if they do not spring back up > quickly. > then press down again to reveal the top of the shaft. > One tiny drop only where the roller meets the shaft > Do not spin or press the rollers. > Of course it doesn't fix the sticky tape problem. > But it will stop good tapes going in the trash. Thank you BOTH for that information. My experience with TK70 media did not have that happen often enough that I realized there was a problem. But I will try to remember to check the rollers next time. > I have also been trying bulk erasing tapes and had partial success. > I used a six inch magnet that holds my mobile antenna onto the car. > On INIT it no longer says write protect but it still falls over after > about a minute I am holding in my hand a cylinder that is about 2 1/2" long and about 2 3/4" in diameter. It probably weighs about 5 lb.. and if I remember correctly it was the voice coil from an old speaker that was so badly damaged it no longer worked. So a permanent magnet needs to be fairly strong. I suggest that you might try to move your magnet in a circular motion of about 4" in diameter while toughing both large sides of the TK70 plastic container. If you achieve partial success with a minute or two, then maybe 5 minutes or even 20 minutes might be fully successful although I would agree that 20 minutes for every tape is too long. But it would at least prove that the method works in principle. Jerome Fine From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 13 11:20:50 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:20:50 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <575EC42A.4000002@compsys.to> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> <575EC42A.4000002@compsys.to> Message-ID: <143d4335-eca0-d4fa-c567-3ec40a16a15a@btinternet.com> On 13/06/2016 15:33, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >On 13/06/2016 02:33, r.stricklin wrote: >> >>> The metal tape path rollers are used as tachometers to make sure the >>> tape is feeding at the correct speed. If the tape drags over them, >>> the firmware will consider the transport jammed and abort. A drop or >>> two of light machine oil over the axle has been enough to get the >>> rollers moving again on my TK50s where this failure mode has occurred. >>> >>> There are multiple failure domains involved. Lubricating the feed >>> roller spindles doesn't solve the sticky tape problem. >>> >>> ok >>> bear. >> >> We have a winner !!! yes that's what I did. >> I had a small bottle of oil that came with my electric razor (Braun >> pronounced Brown not Brawn) >> It even had a fine nozzle. This is what you do. >> Press each roller down (They are sprung) if they do not spring back >> up quickly. >> then press down again to reveal the top of the shaft. >> One tiny drop only where the roller meets the shaft >> Do not spin or press the rollers. >> Of course it doesn't fix the sticky tape problem. >> But it will stop good tapes going in the trash. > > Thank you BOTH for that information. My experience > with TK70 media did not have that happen often enough > that I realized there was a problem. But I will try to > remember to check the rollers next time. > >> I have also been trying bulk erasing tapes and had partial success. >> I used a six inch magnet that holds my mobile antenna onto the car. >> On INIT it no longer says write protect but it still falls over after >> about a minute > > I am holding in my hand a cylinder that is about 2 1/2" long > and about 2 3/4" in diameter. It probably weighs about > 5 lb.. and if I remember correctly it was the voice coil > from an old speaker that was so badly damaged it no > longer worked. So a permanent magnet needs to be > fairly strong. I suggest that you might try to move your > magnet in a circular motion of about 4" in diameter while > toughing both large sides of the TK70 plastic container. > If you achieve partial success with a minute or two, then > maybe 5 minutes or even 20 minutes might be fully > successful although I would agree that 20 minutes for > every tape is too long. But it would at least prove that > the method works in principle. > > Jerome Fine Thank you for your input I'll give it a bit longer. R From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 11:30:06 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:30:06 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? Message-ID: I noticed someone selling a 660AV in my area on Craigslist. I went and got it because for $50 he had a nice little Apple display with the machine that matches my Quadra 700 and an Apple Adjustable Keyboard in good condition to go with it. Turns out he gave me a whole slew of spare mice and an extra Apple Design keyboard (a good, if ugly and PeeCee lookin', spare). The 660AV was dead when I brought it home. It would bong normally but wouldn't produce any video. The RGB video connector on the monitor was smashed out of shape, too. So, I used a sheet metal tool to re-smash the connector back into the right shape, and some needle nosed pliers to straighten the pins. Then I replaced the PRAM battery on the mobo and that fixed it. I guess they don't quite last 23 years. The weird thing about this machine is that it says "PowerPC" right on the front, but it's *NOT* a PPC. It's most definitely a 25Mhz 040'. I wonder why that's there? Maybe the guy took the badge from another system, but I don't think so. This was the original owner. I also wonder why this one is called a "Quadra" when I know I used to have a 660AV that was a "Centris". Wikipedia seems to imply it was just a marketing name change only. However, the article also mentions that most of the Quadras don't have a floppy with motorized eject. Well, this one does. Perhaps it was replaced. I just wonder what's up with these little nuances. The best part of this deal is that the Apple Adjustable keyboard feels mechanical, and I've been pretty impressed with it so far (once you carefully remove the plastic wristrests). It was a bit yellowed, but a bit of retr0brite treatment restored it to bright white. It looks pretty much new, now. I gotta do the Quadra 700 and 660AV next. They aren't badly yellowed, but somewhat. Since neither is scratched up, they should restore nicely. My plan is to run A/UX on the Quadra 700 and MacOS 8.1 on the 660AV. Right now I have everything in pieces. I'm waiting on another SCSI2SD to come to be able to set them both up. Plus, I just got the one SCSI2SD and I'm in the process of benchmarking it on several different OSs. I wish the US vendor would sell the newer (v6) board, as it's supposed to support 10MB/s synchronous (if your SD card can do it, and most can these days). All they have on Ebay right now are the older 5.x based cards (which is like the one I have now). -Swift From brendan at bslabs.net Mon Jun 13 11:43:21 2016 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 09:43:21 -0700 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 13, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > The weird thing about this machine is that it says "PowerPC" right on the > front, but it's *NOT* a PPC. It's most definitely a 25Mhz 040'. I wonder > why that's there? Maybe the guy took the badge from another system, but I > don't think so. This was the original owner. I also wonder why this one is > called a "Quadra" when I know I used to have a 660AV that was a "Centris". > Wikipedia seems to imply it was just a marketing name change only. > However, the article also mentions that most of the Quadras don't have a > floppy with motorized eject. Well, this one does. Perhaps it was replaced. > I just wonder what's up with these little nuances. Where is the PowerPC label? Is it printed on the case underneath the floppy drive (like it is on the 6100), or a sticker put somewhere else? Maybe the machine once had a PPC upgrade installed and the sticker was put on. I?ve seen pictures of some Centris 660AVs that had the auto-inject floppy, but I assumed that by the Quadras they were all manual-inject. My family had a Quadra 660AV bought in early ?94, it had a manual-inject floppy drive and caddy CD-ROM drive. Brendan From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 11:59:33 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:59:33 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 June 2016 at 18:43, Brendan Shanks wrote: > > Where is the PowerPC label? Is it printed on the case underneath the floppy drive (like it is on the 6100), or a sticker put somewhere else? Maybe the machine once had a PPC upgrade installed and the sticker was put on. That's a good guess. Looking it up... http://lowendmac.com/1993/centris-660av-quadra-660av/ ... that looks like a 6100 case, so maybe someone re-cycled part of a case cover or something? A decade later, I'm still sad and annoyed that I missed a Quadra 840AV on my local South London Freecycle group. I'd always wanted one. I did have a Quadra 650, though. Lovely machine. I sold it when I left the country -- I no longer own a house, so I don't have the space. :-( I kept a beige G3 or two. I will revive and restore them at some point, and keep the best and sell the rest. They'll at least use EIDE drives, cheap plentiful SD-RAM and can run (elderly versions of) OS X, which makes it dramatically easier to get stuff on and off them, either by Internet or by disk, especially USB disk. It feels a tad dishonest, like cheating, but it's far easier to fire up 10.3, fetch something off the Web or a thumbdrive or something, unpack it, then reboot into MacOS 9 and actually use it, than it is to get access to that stuff direct from classic MacOS. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 13 12:12:27 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:12:27 -0700 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53790dd3-70c7-0926-7ad4-912636eb5f2b@bitsavers.org> On 6/13/16 9:43 AM, Brendan Shanks wrote: >> I also wonder why this one is >> called a "Quadra" when I know I used to have a 660AV that was a "Centris". >> Quadra verisons of machines generally had a faster CPU, or had the non-LC version with FP. Sadly, the Q800 was crippled because they wanted the 840AV to have a faster processor. The Q800 board will work fine with a 40MHz 68040 There was an Apple PPC PDS upgrade for the 040 Quadras. If it was just a sticker on the front, it probably had the upgrade. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 12:13:32 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:13:32 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jun 2016, Brendan Shanks wrote: > Where is the PowerPC label? Right on the front of the PC. It's offset a bit over the front face near the floppy drive. It looks just like the "PowerPC" logo on a 6100 or something. > Is it printed on the case underneath the floppy drive (like it is on the > 6100), or a sticker put somewhere else? Yep. It's silk-screened right there. It's not a sticker. > Maybe the machine once had a PPC upgrade installed and the sticker was > put on. That's what I thought, too. Until I noticed it wasn't a sticker. > My family had a Quadra 660AV bought in early ?94, it had a manual-inject > floppy drive and caddy CD-ROM drive. Oh oh oh, auto *inject* floppy, that makes sense. Yes, this one is the same then, You inject the floppy and it just clicks down, there is no motorized-action. However, there is when you *eject*. I think I probably just misread the description. -Swift From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 13 12:33:08 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: from Swift Griggs at "Jun 13, 16 10:30:06 am" Message-ID: <201606131733.u5DHX8x93342488@floodgap.com> > The weird thing about this machine is that it says "PowerPC" right on the > front, but it's *NOT* a PPC. It's most definitely a 25Mhz 040'. I wonder > why that's there? Maybe the guy took the badge from another system, but I > don't think so. This was the original owner. I also wonder why this one is > called a "Quadra" when I know I used to have a 660AV that was a "Centris". > Wikipedia seems to imply it was just a marketing name change only. > However, the article also mentions that most of the Quadras don't have a > floppy with motorized eject. Well, this one does. Perhaps it was replaced. > I just wonder what's up with these little nuances. I think there's a simple explanation: someone recycled the case from a 6100. You could easily pry the label from the old one off and glue on the new one. > My plan is to run A/UX on the Quadra 700 and MacOS 8.1 on the 660AV. Right > now I have everything in pieces. I'm waiting on another SCSI2SD to come to > be able to set them both up. Plus, I just got the one SCSI2SD and I'm in > the process of benchmarking it on several different OSs. I wish the US > vendor would sell the newer (v6) board, as it's supposed to support 10MB/s > synchronous (if your SD card can do it, and most can these days). All they > have on Ebay right now are the older 5.x based cards (which is like the > one I have now). I personally run A/UX on a Quadra 800 that I clockchipped to 40MHz. That runs it very, very nicely. It does have a PowerPC PDS card, btw, but the PDS card does not like the CPU being accelerated much past 38MHz. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Are you ready for de BIG FUN?? Yeah! -- Headmaster Kuno, "Ranma 1/2" ------- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 13 12:42:26 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:42:26 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> On 06/01/2016 07:12 AM, geneb wrote: > It's called a "double-shot" key. There's two injection molds used > for each key. I recall contacting the people at Unicomp to ask about their keys, and received the answer that no, they were not double-shot, but laser-engraved and should be very durable. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 13 12:55:02 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:55:02 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <143d4335-eca0-d4fa-c567-3ec40a16a15a@btinternet.com> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> <575EC42A.4000002@compsys.to> <143d4335-eca0-d4fa-c567-3ec40a16a15a@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 13/06/2016 17:20, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 13/06/2016 15:33, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> >On 13/06/2016 02:33, r.stricklin wrote: >>> >>>> The metal tape path rollers are used as tachometers to make sure >>>> the tape is feeding at the correct speed. If the tape drags over >>>> them, the firmware will consider the transport jammed and abort. A >>>> drop or two of light machine oil over the axle has been enough to >>>> get the rollers moving again on my TK50s where this failure mode >>>> has occurred. >>>> >>>> There are multiple failure domains involved. Lubricating the feed >>>> roller spindles doesn't solve the sticky tape problem. >>>> >>>> ok >>>> bear. >>> >>> We have a winner !!! yes that's what I did. >>> I had a small bottle of oil that came with my electric razor (Braun >>> pronounced Brown not Brawn) >>> It even had a fine nozzle. This is what you do. >>> Press each roller down (They are sprung) if they do not spring back >>> up quickly. >>> then press down again to reveal the top of the shaft. >>> One tiny drop only where the roller meets the shaft >>> Do not spin or press the rollers. >>> Of course it doesn't fix the sticky tape problem. >>> But it will stop good tapes going in the trash. >> >> Thank you BOTH for that information. My experience >> with TK70 media did not have that happen often enough >> that I realized there was a problem. But I will try to >> remember to check the rollers next time. >> >>> I have also been trying bulk erasing tapes and had partial success. >>> I used a six inch magnet that holds my mobile antenna onto the car. >>> On INIT it no longer says write protect but it still falls over >>> after about a minute >> >> I am holding in my hand a cylinder that is about 2 1/2" long >> and about 2 3/4" in diameter. It probably weighs about >> 5 lb.. and if I remember correctly it was the voice coil >> from an old speaker that was so badly damaged it no >> longer worked. So a permanent magnet needs to be >> fairly strong. I suggest that you might try to move your >> magnet in a circular motion of about 4" in diameter while >> toughing both large sides of the TK70 plastic container. >> If you achieve partial success with a minute or two, then >> maybe 5 minutes or even 20 minutes might be fully >> successful although I would agree that 20 minutes for >> every tape is too long. But it would at least prove that >> the method works in principle. >> >> Jerome Fine > Thank you for your input I'll give it a bit longer. > > R > > I just had a thought is the magnet in a microwave cooker magnetron permanent or electro? Back in 1960's the guy who I worked for had been in radar during the war. We had several magnetrons about the place. They had a very strong permanent magnet. He always said when the Germans recovered a magnetron from a crashed bomber they soon worked out how it oscillated at 10Ghz but making the magnet was beyond them. Rod From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jun 13 12:59:30 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:59:30 -0700 Subject: WTB: Data General 6030 floppy drive Message-ID: <5F5AE8C1-AEC0-43C6-BA59-B44BFE50DF58@nf6x.net> What are the chances? Slim, but I'll ask anyway. Now that I'm giving my Nova 3/12 some more attention and beginning to debug its 6045 hard drive, I'm interested in dolling up the system some more, and replacing filler panels with things that emit noise and heat. My manuals say that I can mix 6030 floppy drives on the same bus with the 6045 hard drives, so I'd like to add one to my rack. So, does anybody have a 6030 floppy drive for swap or sale? I'm in southern California, which can be a relevant detail when talking about transporting vintage gear. While I'm at it, additional removable packs for my 6045 drive would be helpful, too. Especially if there's anything interesting on them. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 13 13:06:32 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:06:32 -0500 Subject: Data General 6030 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <5F5AE8C1-AEC0-43C6-BA59-B44BFE50DF58@nf6x.net> References: <5F5AE8C1-AEC0-43C6-BA59-B44BFE50DF58@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <002001d1c59e$513d1fc0$f3b75f40$@classiccmp.org> I have a few 6030's... not sure if any are "spare" though. Will check tonight. J From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jun 13 13:13:36 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:13:36 -0700 Subject: Data General 6030 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <002001d1c59e$513d1fc0$f3b75f40$@classiccmp.org> References: <5F5AE8C1-AEC0-43C6-BA59-B44BFE50DF58@nf6x.net> <002001d1c59e$513d1fc0$f3b75f40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 13, 2016, at 11:06 , Jay West wrote: > > > I have a few 6030's... not sure if any are "spare" though. Will check > tonight. Thanks! I hope those things aren't as heavy as the 6045 drive is. I think the hard drive chassis is made out of neutron star matter. I can't let my dogs walk near it for fear that it might accrete them. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 13:18:59 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:18:59 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > ... that looks like a 6100 case, so maybe someone re-cycled part of a > case cover or something? I think that's likely. I don't see much else that could explain it. It's just that it's weird, since the owner didn't seem very technical. > A decade later, I'm still sad and annoyed that I missed a Quadra 840AV > on my local South London Freecycle group. I'd always wanted one. I had one of those for a while. I have to say that, even though it was more expandable than the 660AV, I still had trouble warming up to the machine. It was too big, has the rounded-face style that I dislike, and can't run A/UX. Of course on the latter point, neither can a 660AV. > I did have a Quadra 650, though. Lovely machine. I sold it when I left > the country -- I no longer own a house, so I don't have the space. :-( I always thought of that machine as a "quality Performa" since it has a similar case style to the one many of the Performas had. > I kept a beige G3 or two. I will revive and restore them at some point, > and keep the best and sell the rest. They'll at least use EIDE drives, > cheap plentiful SD-RAM and can run (elderly versions of) OS X, which > makes it dramatically easier to get stuff on and off them, either by > Internet or by disk, especially USB disk. Hmm, yes, I can see how that would be an easier machine to cope with. I lost interest in Macs after OSX came along. It's a strange phenomenon. I am a dyed-in-the-wool Unix zealot. So, you'd think I'd love OSX. Many of my co-workers love it. I don't hate it, but I don't bother with it because I prefer a stock [Free|Net] BSD box. I like the 68k Macs because they remind me of simpler times and I love the M68k. Plus, I have a massive collection of M68k apps/games I can easily load onto them without much effort. OSX went too far off the rails for me. Plus, I find that I don't get along with the current OSX/Mac crowd much. System 9.x and before are "something different" for me, a break from my mostly hardcore CLI existence. > It feels a tad dishonest, like cheating, but it's far easier to fire up > 10.3, fetch something off the Web or a thumbdrive or something, unpack > it, then reboot into MacOS 9 and actually use it, than it is to get > access to that stuff direct from classic MacOS. I know what you mean, but that's why you wanna get your M68k Mac onto your network and just use FTP, instead. That helps tremendously. However, until that point it's floppies and CDROMs, so I know what you mean. USB is about the only "modern" development that I very much miss on older machines. It's so nice to interchange mice, keyboards, and mass storage devices that way. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 13:32:03 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:32:03 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <53790dd3-70c7-0926-7ad4-912636eb5f2b@bitsavers.org> References: <53790dd3-70c7-0926-7ad4-912636eb5f2b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jun 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > Quadra verisons of machines generally had a faster CPU, or had the > non-LC version with FP. Sadly, the Q800 was crippled because they wanted > the 840AV to have a faster processor. That is sad. Damn market-droids. > The Q800 board will work fine with a 40MHz 68040 Are they socketed? I guess you are just saying that it'd be technically possible? > There was an Apple PPC PDS upgrade for the 040 Quadras. If it was just a > sticker on the front, it probably had the upgrade. That was my thought, too, until I opened it up. It's definitely not upgraded. It doesn't even have any adapter installed on the slot. I guess maybe that's only there if you want to use Nubus. The case is silkscreened, too, not a sticker. I think it might just be the cover from a 6100 or something. -Swift From jsw at ieee.org Mon Jun 13 13:40:57 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:40:57 -0500 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> <575EC42A.4000002@compsys.to> <143d4335-eca0-d4fa-c567-3ec40a16a15a@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <67B60D24-DF5B-4D17-BD57-F74179B51B95@ieee.org> > On Jun 13, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > > On 13/06/2016 17:20, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> I just had a thought is the magnet in a microwave cooker magnetron permanent or electro? > Back in 1960's the guy who I worked for had been in radar during the war. > We had several magnetrons about the place. They had a very strong permanent magnet. > > He always said when the Germans recovered a magnetron from a crashed bomber they soon worked out how it oscillated at 10Ghz but making the magnet was beyond them. > > Rod I suspect the working area in a magnetron is too small for this purpose, unless you break it up. A rare earth magnet savaged from a disk drive or a banned child toy (aka BuckyBalls) might be more effective. Jerry From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jun 13 13:52:00 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 06/01/2016 07:12 AM, geneb wrote: > >> It's called a "double-shot" key. There's two injection molds used >> for each key. > > I recall contacting the people at Unicomp to ask about their keys, and > received the answer that no, they were not double-shot, but > laser-engraved and should be very durable. Bad memory on my part. (Funny, it always passes the checksum in the morning! :) ) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jun 13 13:56:52 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:56:52 -0400 Subject: VCF - can't get in again. In-Reply-To: <5a2e0143-5c7a-2b5a-6504-549554e9af2d@btinternet.com> References: <5e1b81e1-ce50-c0e6-9b2f-4d517e96aadd@btinternet.com> <575DB9BE.3050404@snarc.net> <5a2e0143-5c7a-2b5a-6504-549554e9af2d@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <575F01F4.9040800@snarc.net> >> What else do you want us to do? You already know that we deleted your >> old accounts and let you make a new one. There are thousands of >> members, you're the only one having this issue. > Hi Evan > > You missed the next email that said it works now thanks. Glad to hear this. :) From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jun 13 14:00:18 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:00:18 -0400 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: <5a2e0143-5c7a-2b5a-6504-549554e9af2d@btinternet.com> References: <5e1b81e1-ce50-c0e6-9b2f-4d517e96aadd@btinternet.com> <575DB9BE.3050404@snarc.net> <5a2e0143-5c7a-2b5a-6504-549554e9af2d@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <575F02C2.30200@snarc.net> > One thing I did want to ask was, there was some debate about an original > signed Apple. I couldn't make out if there was or was an announcement or if it did or > did not get sold. The auction has four days remaining: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890608380. We're also auctioning a signed Sol-20: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890605553 Both machines are super-clean, fully working, and autographed by their respective inventors (Woz/Felsenstein). All proceeds go to VCFed which is a non-profit. > Also what had northern California go to do with it? Nothing. :) Someone asked, in a wishful thinking moment, if the announcement is about a new VCFestival in southern California. I replied it's not and that northern Calif. is a good place to visit for VCF West this summer. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Jun 13 14:03:41 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:03:41 -0400 Subject: VCFed auction updates Message-ID: should have kept the good signed stuff and sold the lesser stuff perhaps? unless you had them sign a stack of them. Ed# In a message dated 6/13/2016 12:00:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at snarc.net writes: > One thing I did want to ask was, there was some debate about an original > signed Apple. I couldn't make out if there was or was an announcement or if it did or > did not get sold. The auction has four days remaining: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890608380. We're also auctioning a signed Sol-20: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890605553 Both machines are super-clean, fully working, and autographed by their respective inventors (Woz/Felsenstein). All proceeds go to VCFed which is a non-profit. > Also what had northern California go to do with it? Nothing. :) Someone asked, in a wishful thinking moment, if the announcement is about a new VCFestival in southern California. I replied it's not and that northern Calif. is a good place to visit for VCF West this summer. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jun 13 14:09:44 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:09:44 -0400 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575F04F8.2000906@snarc.net> > should have kept the good signed stuff > and sold the lesser stuff perhaps? We have plenty of good stuff. :) These two systems were donated specifically for us to auction as a fundraiser. From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 14:17:03 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:17:03 +0200 Subject: Informer 213 terminal - 3274 / 3178 compatible ? Message-ID: 2016-06-11 22:00 GMT+02:00 Pete Turnbull : > On 11/06/2016 18:17, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> I just dig out this little thing form my father stash of various stuff. >> >> When bringing up the setup screen it does not look like the one in the >> > > manual. > > I love the way they felt they had to explain the keyboard at such length. > And explain that the unmarked key is the space bar - I remember when I was > about 6 or 7, having to ask my dad how to get a space on his office > typewriter. > > I was also amused to see they have a section on connecting it to the UK's > BT lines (in the days when things needed BT Approval) so it's obviously > intended for UK use, yet it's pictured with an American power lead. Unfortunately for me my unit does not seem to be the same as the one in the manual. The section on connecting to BT lines is probably still valid since it does have a Rockwell modem board in it. I did find an old Computerworld ad from 1989 which matched. Informer 213 - emulating a 3274 control unit with an attached 3178 mod 2 terminal. Someone with IBM knowledge might share what that means and how the terminal can be used. Anyway. I put together a webpage on the thing: http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/informer-213 /Mattis > > > -- > Pete > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Jun 13 14:20:11 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:20:11 -0400 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bb301d1c5a8$9b9c62b0$d2d52810$@sudbrink@verizon.net> COURYHOUSE wrote: > > should have kept the good signed stuff > and sold the lesser stuff perhaps? > unless you had them sign a stack of them. I think that VCFed (was MARCH) had that one signed at the same workshop that mine was signed at. A couple of others were signed at the same time. Picture of Herb getting his signed (right after mine) here: http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/sol_1.html Bill S. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jun 13 14:44:19 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:44:19 -0400 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: <0bb301d1c5a8$9b9c62b0$d2d52810$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <0bb301d1c5a8$9b9c62b0$d2d52810$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <575F0D13.4020704@snarc.net> >> should have kept the good signed stuff >> and sold the lesser stuff perhaps? >> unless you had them sign a stack of them. > > I think that VCFed (was MARCH) had that one > signed at the same workshop that mine was > signed at. No. These are different ones. These were donated to us very recently specifically for auctioning as a fundraiser. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 14:50:11 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 20:50:11 +0100 Subject: Informer 213 terminal - 3274 / 3178 compatible ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000801d1c5ac$cbfe6a30$63fb3e90$@gmail.com> > does have a Rockwell modem board in it. > > I did find an old Computerworld ad from 1989 which matched. Informer 213 - > emulating a 3274 control unit with an attached 3178 mod 2 terminal. > Someone with IBM knowledge might share what that means and how the > terminal can be used. > Reading the add it looks like you need a dial-up SDLC (that?s synchronous data) link into a mainframe with a telecoms controller running VTAM, l which I guess is as rare as hens teeth these days. When you get to the set up menu's can you check if it can run bi-sync as that might be hackable, providing a suitable synchronous modem can be found. > Anyway. I put together a webpage on the thing: > http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/informer-213 > > /Mattis > Dave G4UGM From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 15:05:47 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:05:47 -0400 Subject: Informer 213 terminal - 3274 / 3178 compatible ? In-Reply-To: <000801d1c5ac$cbfe6a30$63fb3e90$@gmail.com> References: <000801d1c5ac$cbfe6a30$63fb3e90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> does have a Rockwell modem board in it. >> >> I did find an old Computerworld ad from 1989 which matched. Informer 213 - >> emulating a 3274 control unit with an attached 3178 mod 2 terminal. >> Someone with IBM knowledge might share what that means and how the >> terminal can be used. >> > > Reading the add it looks like you need a dial-up SDLC (that?s synchronous data) link into a mainframe with a telecoms controller running VTAM, l which I guess is as rare as hens teeth these days. > When you get to the set up menu's can you check if it can run bi-sync as that might be hackable, providing a suitable synchronous modem can be found. Some time around 1992, give or take, there were piles of Informer 207s for sale cheap at the Dayton Hamfest. We were doing Bisync and SNA products at the time, so we bought a couple. We were able to fiddle our environment enough to get one of them to connect - our flagship product was an SNA PU type 2, much like a 3274 terminal controller, but with interactive sessions via VT100 + software 3270 emulation instead of a real IBM 3270. My memory is that you could dial up your 37x5 (via sync modem, as Dave mentioned) from one Informer 207, then attach several "child" Informer 207s to the first, as if you had a real 3274 + multiple 3270s. I have to think the later Informer terminals had the same functionality (unless it was later determined that it was "better" (and/or cheaper) to do one-modem-one-user instead of supporting a remote office and multiple sessions off of one connection. Essentially, what we had to do with out Informer 207 was to provision our environment pretty much the same as adding a new 3274 and get the settings to match on both sides of the phone line. I think it took a few hours of fiddling to get both sides happy. The 207 was SNA-only. It did not support HASP or 3780, the predominant bisync protocols (we supported those on other products, and they are _far_ simpler than anything SNA). Sorry I don't have any data on the 213. It sounds like a device we would have liked to have had 20+ years ago. -ethan From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 15:33:26 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:33:26 +0100 Subject: Informer 213 terminal - 3274 / 3178 compatible ? In-Reply-To: References: <000801d1c5ac$cbfe6a30$63fb3e90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a001d1c5b2$d7330270$85990750$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: 13 June 2016 21:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Informer 213 terminal - 3274 / 3178 compatible ? > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > >> does have a Rockwell modem board in it. > >> > >> I did find an old Computerworld ad from 1989 which matched. Informer > >> 213 - emulating a 3274 control unit with an attached 3178 mod 2 terminal. > >> Someone with IBM knowledge might share what that means and how the > >> terminal can be used. > >> > > > > Reading the add it looks like you need a dial-up SDLC (that?s synchronous > data) link into a mainframe with a telecoms controller running VTAM, l which I > guess is as rare as hens teeth these days. > > When you get to the set up menu's can you check if it can run bi-sync as that > might be hackable, providing a suitable synchronous modem can be found. > > Some time around 1992, give or take, there were piles of Informer 207s for > sale cheap at the Dayton Hamfest. We were doing Bisync and SNA products at > the time, so we bought a couple. We were able to fiddle our environment > enough to get one of them to connect - our flagship product was an SNA PU > type 2, much like a 3274 terminal controller, but with interactive sessions via > VT100 + software 3270 emulation instead of a real IBM 3270. My memory is > that you could dial up your > 37x5 (via sync modem, as Dave mentioned) from one Informer 207, then attach > several "child" Informer 207s to the first, as if you had a real 3274 + multiple > 3270s. I have to think the later Informer terminals had the same functionality > (unless it was later determined that it was "better" (and/or cheaper) to do one- > modem-one-user instead of supporting a remote office and multiple sessions > off of one connection. > > Essentially, what we had to do with out Informer 207 was to provision our > environment pretty much the same as adding a new 3274 and get the settings > to match on both sides of the phone line. I think it took a few hours of fiddling > to get both sides happy. > > The 207 was SNA-only. It did not support HASP or 3780, the predominant bisync > protocols (we supported those on other products, and they are _far_ simpler > than anything SNA). > > Sorry I don't have any data on the 213. It sounds like a device we would have > liked to have had 20+ years ago. > > -ethan Looking at the documents on the web it looks like the AE is a straight forward VT100 terminal, the PT was the 3270 version. If it is an AE it should work with any Unix/Linux/PDP/VAX etc. etc. out of the box. Dave G4UGM From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Jun 13 16:08:05 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 22:08:05 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show In-Reply-To: <5710DCAC.3060101@btinternet.com> References: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> <570FA49E.9070902@btinternet.com> <20160414153308.849832073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> <5710DCAC.3060101@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Greetings all A polite notice to inform everyone that DEC Legacy will be running this year will be Saturday 15th - Sunday 16th October 2016 at the Marchesi Centre, Windermere, United Kingdom. I'm currently moving web host provider so the website is not yet up. In the meantime I will post any developments. The DEC Legacy Event has now been running approximately every 18 months for the last six years. It is a meeting of vintage computer enthusiasts with a slant to Digital Equipment Corporation products but open to all. I suggest those planning on attending and staying over in the Lakes book accommodation sooner rather than later. The cost will be ?10 for the Saturday, ?7.50 for the Sunday or ?15 for the weekend. Hope to see you there! Regards, Mark On 15 April 2016 at 13:21, Rod Smallwood wrote: > OK That looks good I hope it happens. > My exhibit will consist of brand new DEC products made in the last six > months, > > Rod Smallwood > > > > On 14/04/2016 21:44, Mark Wickens wrote: > >> The tentative plan is to run the next one in October. The date should be >> firmed up in the next month or so. >> Typically I run the event once every 18 months or so. >> >> Regards, Mark. >> >> On 14 April 2016 at 15:50, Rob Jarratt >> wrote: >> >> It is a very informal event, organised by Mark in his own time. He has >>> family and work commitments like all of us, so I expect he has not been >>> able to find the time. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone >>> >>> From: Rod Smallwood >>> Sent: 14 April 2016 15:09 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: DEC Legacy UK show >>> >>> So why did it say See you in 2016? >>> >>> >>> On 14/04/2016 15:03, Dave Wade wrote: >>> >>>> I thought Mark was only aiming for every two years. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >>>>> Smallwood >>>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 14:14 >>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>>>> Subject: DEC Legacy UK show >>>>> >>>>> DEC Legacy UK show >>>>> >>>>> Where did it go ? >>>>> 2015 then nothing >>>>> >>>>> Rod Smallwood >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 17:54:20 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:54:20 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy UK show In-Reply-To: References: <570F978F.2040200@btinternet.com> <066e01d19656$656692f0$3033b8d0$@gmail.com> <570FA49E.9070902@btinternet.com> <20160414153308.849832073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> <5710DCAC.3060101@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <00f101d1c5c6$8753af20$95fb0d60$@gmail.com> Well I hope to attend again. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark > Wickens > Sent: 13 June 2016 22:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Legacy UK show > > Greetings all > > A polite notice to inform everyone that DEC Legacy will be running this year > will be Saturday 15th - Sunday 16th October 2016 at the Marchesi Centre, > Windermere, United Kingdom. I'm currently moving web host provider so the > website is not yet up. In the meantime I will post any developments. > > The DEC Legacy Event has now been running approximately every 18 months > for the last six years. It is a meeting of vintage computer enthusiasts with a > slant to Digital Equipment Corporation products but open to all. > > I suggest those planning on attending and staying over in the Lakes book > accommodation sooner rather than later. > > The cost will be ?10 for the Saturday, ?7.50 for the Sunday or ?15 for the > weekend. > > Hope to see you there! > > Regards, Mark > > On 15 April 2016 at 13:21, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > > > OK That looks good I hope it happens. > > My exhibit will consist of brand new DEC products made in the last six > > months, > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > > > On 14/04/2016 21:44, Mark Wickens wrote: > > > >> The tentative plan is to run the next one in October. The date should > >> be firmed up in the next month or so. > >> Typically I run the event once every 18 months or so. > >> > >> Regards, Mark. > >> > >> On 14 April 2016 at 15:50, Rob Jarratt > >> wrote: > >> > >> It is a very informal event, organised by Mark in his own time. He > >> has > >>> family and work commitments like all of us, so I expect he has not > >>> been able to find the time. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Rob > >>> > >>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone > >>> > >>> From: Rod Smallwood > >>> Sent: 14 April 2016 15:09 > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>> Subject: Re: DEC Legacy UK show > >>> > >>> So why did it say See you in 2016? > >>> > >>> > >>> On 14/04/2016 15:03, Dave Wade wrote: > >>> > >>>> I thought Mark was only aiming for every two years. > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>> Rod Smallwood > >>>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 14:14 > >>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > >>>>> Subject: DEC Legacy UK show > >>>>> > >>>>> DEC Legacy UK show > >>>>> > >>>>> Where did it go ? > >>>>> 2015 then nothing > >>>>> > >>>>> Rod Smallwood > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 18:34:03 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 01:34:03 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 June 2016 at 20:18, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 13 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: >> ... that looks like a 6100 case, so maybe someone re-cycled part of a >> case cover or something? > > I think that's likely. I don't see much else that could explain it. It's > just that it's weird, since the owner didn't seem very technical. Might have got it like that & never noticed...? >> A decade later, I'm still sad and annoyed that I missed a Quadra 840AV >> on my local South London Freecycle group. I'd always wanted one. > > I had one of those for a while. I have to say that, even though it was > more expandable than the 660AV, I still had trouble warming up to the > machine. It was too big, has the rounded-face style that I dislike, and > can't run A/UX. Of course on the latter point, neither can a 660AV. That's very true. I've never used a live A/UX system and badly want a play. Tempted to try Shoebill... https://github.com/pruten/shoebill ... but emulators aren't the same. >> I did have a Quadra 650, though. Lovely machine. I sold it when I left >> the country -- I no longer own a house, so I don't have the space. :-( > > I always thought of that machine as a "quality Performa" since it has a > similar case style to the one many of the Performas had. I guess so -- I don't know all the models that well. There are also US-model Macs that always remained very scarce in Europe. The G3 All-in-One is an example -- I've never seen one in the flesh. >> I kept a beige G3 or two. I will revive and restore them at some point, >> and keep the best and sell the rest. They'll at least use EIDE drives, >> cheap plentiful SD-RAM and can run (elderly versions of) OS X, which >> makes it dramatically easier to get stuff on and off them, either by >> Internet or by disk, especially USB disk. > > Hmm, yes, I can see how that would be an easier machine to cope with. I > lost interest in Macs after OSX came along. It's a strange phenomenon. I > am a dyed-in-the-wool Unix zealot. So, you'd think I'd love OSX. Many of > my co-workers love it. I don't hate it, but I don't bother with it because > I prefer a stock [Free|Net] BSD box. I can see that. To this day, I don't consider OS X to be the _real_ Mac experience. I like it well enough -- I'm typing on it right now, on a Macintel with an original ADB keyboard. It's a nice OS, I like and appreciate the NeXTstep heritage, but it's not a _proper_ Mac. But I spent real money -- very very rare for me -- on upgrading an old 7600 or 7700 I got for free to run OS X 10.0, to get to know the new OS. More RAM, G3 upgrade, EIDE controller, etc. Then I got a free Blue'n'White and it was my main machine for a while. Then I switched to Linux full-time and never looked back. > I like the 68k Macs because they > remind me of simpler times and I love the M68k. Plus, I have a massive > collection of M68k apps/games I can easily load onto them without much > effort. Me too, although I'd not call my s/w collection massive. But the snag is that 68K means SCSI, and SCSI is a pain when it doesn't work. It also means AAUI, ADB, weird monitors, etc. The G3 era meant more standard bits, but the beige machines are still a classic Mac. They'll take a cheap PCI USB card, you can use vanilla USB mice, with a graphics card a standard monitor, etc. -- but they're still _Macs_. They boot to a happy (or sad) Mac, and they run Classic. The last Mac that was vaguely a Mac, for me, was the Blue'n'White. All modern and it used PC componentry, but it has an ADB port. (And Firewire.) When ADB went away, soon after, classic MacOS went away, and then, they're just weird PCs with (briefly) weird processors that only run a weird Unix (or Linux). Nice boxes, but they don't feel all that Mac-like to me. The Beige machines have a foot in both eras -- they take, or can take, PC hardware, but they're proper classic Macs with Mac firmware and can run both the actual Apple Mac OSes. > OSX went too far off the rails for me. I can understand that. > Plus, I find that I don't > get along with the current OSX/Mac crowd much. Also a point. > System 9.x and before are > "something different" for me, a break from my mostly hardcore CLI > existence. Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness. I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and the style, even if it was binary-incompatible. I wish the Star Trek project had come to some kind of fruition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project > >> It feels a tad dishonest, like cheating, but it's far easier to fire up >> 10.3, fetch something off the Web or a thumbdrive or something, unpack >> it, then reboot into MacOS 9 and actually use it, than it is to get >> access to that stuff direct from classic MacOS. > > I know what you mean, but that's why you wanna get your M68k Mac onto your > network and just use FTP, instead. That helps tremendously. However, until > that point it's floppies and CDROMs, so I know what you mean. > > USB is about the only "modern" development that I very much miss on older > machines. It's so nice to interchange mice, keyboards, and mass storage > devices that way. > > -Swift > -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From spc at conman.org Mon Jun 13 18:56:35 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 19:56:35 -0400 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > > System 9.x and before are > > "something different" for me, a break from my mostly hardcore CLI > > existence. > > Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness. > I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and > the style, even if it was binary-incompatible. What do you feel is still missing from OS-X today? About the only thing I can think of is the unique file system, where each file had a data and a resource fork. > I wish the Star Trek project had come to some kind of fruition. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project Reading that, it sounds like it would have been much like early Windows---an application that would run on top of MS-DOS (or in this case, DR-DOS). -spc From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 19:34:54 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 20:34:54 -0400 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Pictures or it didn'didn't happen ;) Video, so it did happen. https://youtu.be/az7Sg0EHr5E No apologies for zero production value for this or any other Uniservo videos. -- Will From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Jun 13 19:58:10 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:58:10 -0700 Subject: IBM 3511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70C5FF82-4469-4606-8DE0-9A271A09C8A1@nf6x.net> > On Jun 13, 2016, at 17:34 , William Donzelli wrote: > >> Pictures or it didn'didn't happen ;) > > Video, so it did happen. > > https://youtu.be/az7Sg0EHr5E > > No apologies for zero production value for this or any other Uniservo videos. Nice. Subscribed. The case comes together and goes apart just like my PS/2 85, though it doesn't have the sliding safety cover over the power button like the 85 does. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 13 20:52:16 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> from Sean Conner at "Jun 13, 16 07:56:35 pm" Message-ID: <201606140152.u5E1qG9734276570@floodgap.com> > > > System 9.x and before are > > > "something different" for me, a break from my mostly hardcore CLI > > > existence. > > > > Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness. > > I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and > > the style, even if it was binary-incompatible. > > What do you feel is still missing from OS-X today? About the only thing I > can think of is the unique file system, where each file had a data and a > resource fork. The spatial Finder. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I have to floss my parakeet." ------------ From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 21:36:43 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:36:43 -0500 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <201606140152.u5E1qG9734276570@floodgap.com> References: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> <201606140152.u5E1qG9734276570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20160614023643.GA68600@gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > System 9.x and before are > > > > "something different" for me, a break from my mostly hardcore CLI > > > > existence. > > > > > > Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness. > > > I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and > > > the style, even if it was binary-incompatible. > > > > What do you feel is still missing from OS-X today? About the only thing I > > can think of is the unique file system, where each file had a data and a > > resource fork. > > The spatial Finder. +infinity -- Eric Christopherson From ryan at diskfutility.com Tue Jun 14 01:41:04 2016 From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 01:41:04 -0500 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <201606140152.u5E1qG9734276570@floodgap.com> References: <201606140152.u5E1qG9734276570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Jun 13, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> System 9.x and before are >>>> "something different" for me, a break from my mostly hardcore CLI >>>> existence. >>> >>> Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness. >>> I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and >>> the style, even if it was binary-incompatible. >> >> What do you feel is still missing from OS-X today? About the only thing I >> can think of is the unique file system, where each file had a data and a >> resource fork. > > The spatial Finder. I can?t agree enough. For what it?s worth, in recent versions of the Mac OS if you have the toolbar turned off in Finder it mostly functions in a spatial way, but there are glitches that wreck your folder layouts and positioning from time to time. -- ...although, I could be wrong... Ryan Eisworth - Brenham, TX, USA From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 14 03:26:09 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 09:26:09 +0100 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/06/2016 20:03, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > should have kept the good signed stuff > and sold the lesser stuff perhaps? > unless you had them sign a stack of them. > Ed# > > > In a message dated 6/13/2016 12:00:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at snarc.net writes: > >> One thing I did want to ask was, there was some debate about an original >> signed Apple. I couldn't make out if there was or was an announcement or > if it did or >> did not get sold. > The auction has four days remaining: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890608380. > > We're also auctioning a signed Sol-20: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890605553 > > Both machines are super-clean, fully working, and autographed by their > respective inventors (Woz/Felsenstein). > > All proceeds go to VCFed which is a non-profit. > > >> Also what had northern California go to do with it? > Nothing. :) Someone asked, in a wishful thinking moment, if the > announcement is about a new VCFestival in southern California. I replied > it's not and that northern Calif. is a good place to visit for VCF West > this summer. > Well the signature does not a lot for me but the system looks really nice. Just as I remember them. At the time I did a line in modified 12" TV's as monitors. (sold loads) There was also a silver cased version. Rod From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Jun 14 04:57:46 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:57:46 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2016 15/16 Oct 2016 - Registration now open Message-ID: <575FD51A.9030405@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi folks The website is now back up at http://declegacy.org.uk and will slowly fill with content in the next couple of months about the upcoming event. Registration is now possible. Kind regards, Mark. From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Jun 14 05:27:09 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:27:09 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2016 15/16 Oct 2016 - Registration now open In-Reply-To: <575FD51A.9030405@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <575FD51A.9030405@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <87vb1cdq0y.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> The website is good. The only problem is how far away Windemere is from almost everywhere in the UK... I think I might be able to justify this though... It looks very interesting though. Aaron. Mark Wickens writes: > Hi folks > > The website is now back up at http://declegacy.org.uk and will slowly > fill with content in the next couple of months about the upcoming event. > Registration is now possible. > > Kind regards, Mark. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jun 14 06:17:01 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 04:17:01 -0700 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5b5b0e69-98a8-fb64-7355-8db7b550f86f@jwsss.com> On 6/14/2016 1:26 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Well the signature does not a lot for me but the system looks really > nice. > Just as I remember them. Wozniak signed systems sell for a lot more than unsigned. Assuming the bit Woz isn't faked of course, so one needs to get good authentication. I have an original unit I bought with a packing box, but I don't know if I'll bring it along. PS died some years ago, otherwise all original as I bought it from Advanced Computer Products. It would be cool to get it signed if he comes by and is in the mood to do so. Thanks Jim From lorrywoodman at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 06:07:06 2016 From: lorrywoodman at gmail.com (Lawrence Woodman) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:07:06 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2016 15/16 Oct 2016 - Registration now open In-Reply-To: <87vb1cdq0y.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <575FD51A.9030405@wickensonline.co.uk> <87vb1cdq0y.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <575FE55A.3090800@gmail.com> On 14/06/16 11:27, Aaron Jackson wrote: > The website is good. The only problem is how far away Windemere is from > almost everywhere in the UK... I think I might be able to justify this > though... It looks very interesting though. The UK is more than just England. Windermere is roughly equidistant from Land's end (439 miles) in the South and John O'Groats (446 miles) in the North. Though I have to admit it is too far for me at half those distances. I hope the event goes well as it is quite unique in the UK. Lorry -- TechTinkering : Retro Computers, Programming and General Technical Tinkering. From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Tue Jun 14 06:19:42 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 21:19:42 +1000 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <67B60D24-DF5B-4D17-BD57-F74179B51B95@ieee.org> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> <575EC42A.4000002@compsys.to> <143d4335-eca0-d4fa-c567-3ec40a16a15a@btinternet.com> <67B60D24-DF5B-4D17-BD57-F74179B51B95@ieee.org> Message-ID: <16c72a12-18fe-bc8b-df70-6439d067656c@labyrinth.net.au> On 14/06/2016 4:40 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> On Jun 13, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> >> On 13/06/2016 17:20, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> I just had a thought is the magnet in a microwave cooker magnetron permanent or electro? > > A rare earth magnet savaged from a disk drive or a banned child toy (aka BuckyBalls) might be more effective. > > > Jerry > When I worked on this gear, we kept a magnet assy from a CDC 9762 80mb drive under the bench in a safe place, and used it to bulk-erase any tapes as needed. The magnets from a RA81 failed cartridge are very small and powerful, will do nicely. I keep a few in my workshop for gen duty screw pickup, etc. Lionel. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Jun 14 08:38:52 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 14:38:52 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2016 15/16 Oct 2016 - Registration now open In-Reply-To: <87vb1cdq0y.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> References: <575FD51A.9030405@wickensonline.co.uk> <87vb1cdq0y.fsf@finger.aaronsplace.co.uk> Message-ID: <576008EC.7040407@wickensonline.co.uk> We have a regular who makes his way up from deepest, darkest Cornwall, and we have had the pleasure of gents from as far afield as Seattle and the Netherlands - so I guess I must be getting something right! Regards, Mark. On 14/06/16 11:27, Aaron Jackson wrote: > The website is good. The only problem is how far away Windemere is from > almost everywhere in the UK... I think I might be able to justify this > though... It looks very interesting though. > > Aaron. > > > Mark Wickens writes: > >> Hi folks >> >> The website is now back up at http://declegacy.org.uk and will slowly >> fill with content in the next couple of months about the upcoming event. >> Registration is now possible. >> >> Kind regards, Mark. -- |\ _,,,--,,_ / ,`.-'`' ._ \-;;,_ |,4- ) )_ .;.( `'-' <---''(_/._)--'(_\_) Mark Wickens From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 14 08:57:32 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 14:57:32 +0100 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: <5b5b0e69-98a8-fb64-7355-8db7b550f86f@jwsss.com> References: <5b5b0e69-98a8-fb64-7355-8db7b550f86f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <358920dc-83ca-e01e-2dbb-cd7f7dacbcdd@btinternet.com> On 14/06/2016 12:17, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 6/14/2016 1:26 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> Well the signature does not a lot for me but the system looks really >> nice. >> Just as I remember them. > Wozniak signed systems sell for a lot more than unsigned. Assuming the > bit Woz isn't faked of course, so one needs to get good authentication. > > I have an original unit I bought with a packing box, but I don't know > if I'll bring it along. PS died some years ago, otherwise all > original as I bought it from Advanced Computer Products. It would be > cool to get it signed if he comes by and is in the mood to do so. > > Thanks > Jim Might be worth getting the PS fixed then. Woz sounds like a nice guy. With that kind of money you would not normally care much. R From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 14 10:12:27 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 16:12:27 +0100 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <16c72a12-18fe-bc8b-df70-6439d067656c@labyrinth.net.au> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> <575EC42A.4000002@compsys.to> <143d4335-eca0-d4fa-c567-3ec40a16a15a@btinternet.com> <67B60D24-DF5B-4D17-BD57-F74179B51B95@ieee.org> <16c72a12-18fe-bc8b-df70-6439d067656c@labyrinth.net.au> Message-ID: <0a44001a-32e1-8f33-63e8-a5c4e8d11d29@btinternet.com> On 14/06/2016 12:19, Lionel Johnson wrote: > On 14/06/2016 4:40 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: >>> On Jun 13, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Rod Smallwood >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 13/06/2016 17:20, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> >>>> I just had a thought is the magnet in a microwave cooker magnetron >>>> permanent or electro? >> >> A rare earth magnet savaged from a disk drive or a banned child toy >> (aka BuckyBalls) might be more effective. >> >> >> Jerry >> > When I worked on this gear, we kept a magnet assy from a CDC 9762 80mb > drive under the bench in a safe place, and used it to bulk-erase any > tapes as needed. The magnets from a RA81 failed cartridge are very > small and powerful, will do nicely. I keep a few in my workshop for > gen duty screw pickup, etc. > > Lionel. > > I though I'd pursue the mag mount route flipping the mount over shows a center puck like magnet made from a metal and about an inch and quarter across. Then there's a gap of a quarter of an inch and then an annular ferrite ring about six inches across. The central magnet seems the stronger of the two and a compact tape cassette will stick to it. So I'll rotate the cartridge through the magnetic field and see if that erases it. R Anybody know what this is about? MSCPCK-I-MU0-FW Rev level is 003/HW Rev level is 000 From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 11:02:38 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:02:38 -0500 Subject: Adapting digital RGBI monitor to accept analog RGB Message-ID: I am in possession of two Magnavox (North American Philips) CM8562 monitors. Out of the box they handle composite and digital RGBI (CGA) input. What I'd like to do is get one to handle analog RGB (like arcade boards, Amiga, Atari ST, and Apple IIGS put out). I wouldn't think this was possible, but I seem to have a certain memory that I saw mention of doing just that *somewhere* on the web a few years ago, even though I can't find that mention now. According to the rather unwieldy chart at http://gona.mactar.hu/Commodore/monitor/Commodore_monitors_by_model_number.html , the service manual and schematic for the Commodore-branded 1084 and 1084S-P is "also good for Magnavox ... CM8562". I assume this means the monitors are basically the same underneath. Both of those Commodore monitors support analog RGB. However, when I look at the service manuals provided for those, they specifically state in several places that parts of the manual referring to analog RGB do not apply to the CM8562. Also, according to http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/commodore/1084S-P1/docs/1084p/readme.txt , there are two chassis designations, which both confusingly include the string "CM8562": CM8505/CM8562/CM8705/CM8762, 8CM505/8CM515/8CM542/8CM643 on the one hand; and 8CM542/CM8562/CM8762 on the other. The latter is noted as only accepting digital RGBI. Physically, both monitors I have have an 8-pin DIN input for the digital RGBI, and a circular area with the legend "lin RGB" underneath. One one monitor, that circular area is perforated; on the other one, it's just a circle but with no indication that it can be easily knocked out. I have not yet opened either one. So... does anyone know if these monitors can in fact be made to accept analog RGB? Or have a way I could tell after opening them up? And, of course, I'd like instructions on just how to do it, if it is possible. -- Eric Christopherson From jsw at ieee.org Tue Jun 14 11:20:35 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:20:35 -0500 Subject: Accessing a TK50 or TK70 from RT In-Reply-To: <0a44001a-32e1-8f33-63e8-a5c4e8d11d29@btinternet.com> References: <575D5B73.5080709@compsys.to> <7374CDE1-BC33-491A-B0B1-8A8CFF2D6A2B@typewritten.org> <575EC42A.4000002@compsys.to> <143d4335-eca0-d4fa-c567-3ec40a16a15a@btinternet.com> <67B60D24-DF5B-4D17-BD57-F74179B51B95@ieee.org> <16c72a12-18fe-bc8b-df70-6439d067656c@labyrinth.net.au> <0a44001a-32e1-8f33-63e8-a5c4e8d11d29@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <084FA49A-AA7C-4784-B9BF-52176071FCEA@ieee.org> > On Jun 14, 2016, at 10:12 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > > ?.. > > Anybody know what this is about? > MSCPCK-I-MU0-FW Rev level is 003/HW Rev level is 000 > > From the RT11 System Message Manual ------------- ?MSCPCK?I?MUn-FW Rev Level is nnn/HW Rev Level is nnn Explanation: A command to run the TMSCP (Tape Mass Storage Communication Protocol) Controller Checking Program (MSCPCK.SAV) in your startup command file checks your TMSCP (MU) device controller (if present) and reports its revision level with this message. The n is the MU unit number and the nnn is a 3-digit firmware or hardware revision level. Reliable TK50 operation on Q-bus processors requires a controller of at least firmware revision 4 and hardware revision 6. User Action: If your configuration does not include a TMSCP device, you can disable the command to run MSCPCK in your startup command file by editing that file and placing an exclamation point (!) before the command (!R MSCPCK). If the revision level is below firmware revision 4 and hardware revision 6, contact your local Digital field service representative to get a revised TMSCP controller. ?????? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 11:25:39 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 16:25:39 +0000 Subject: Adapting digital RGBI monitor to accept analog RGB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am in possession of two Magnavox (North American Philips) CM8562 > monitors. Out of the box they handle composite and digital RGBI (CGA) > input. What I'd like to do is get one to handle analog RGB (like arcade > boards, Amiga, Atari ST, and Apple IIGS put out). I wouldn't think this was > possible, but I seem to have a certain memory that I saw mention of doing My guess is that it is possible. The CRT is an analogue device. There must be circuitry in the monitor that accepts the 4 digital signals and turns them into 3 analogue signals to feed to the video amplifiers. So you should be able to feed in a suitable analogue signal after said conversion stage. Last time I was inside a similar Philips monitor, the main PCB was designed for all possible versions, but only the necessary components were fitted. If you can get the service manual for the version you want (with analogue inputs) compare the PCB layout with the version you have to find out what is missing. When I had to do something like this, the hardest part was finding the right switches and connectors that would fit on the PCB and line up with the holes in the case. -tony From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Jun 14 11:31:27 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:31:27 -0400 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: <5b5b0e69-98a8-fb64-7355-8db7b550f86f@jwsss.com> References: <5b5b0e69-98a8-fb64-7355-8db7b550f86f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5760315F.7090603@snarc.net> > It would be cool to get it signed if he comes by We expect to know by July-ish is he'll attend. It depends on his travel schedule. > and is in the mood to do so. Always! He and Crunch signed by shirt at one of the original VCF Wests. From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Jun 14 11:32:04 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:32:04 -0400 Subject: VCFed auction updates In-Reply-To: <358920dc-83ca-e01e-2dbb-cd7f7dacbcdd@btinternet.com> References: <5b5b0e69-98a8-fb64-7355-8db7b550f86f@jwsss.com> <358920dc-83ca-e01e-2dbb-cd7f7dacbcdd@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <57603184.1000702@snarc.net> > Woz sounds like a nice guy. He's incredibly nice. It always impresses me. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 11:31:53 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:31:53 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > Might have got it like that & never noticed...? He claimed to be the original owner, and he was a teacher. He probably got it as part of some educational program, maybe it was used then. I dunno. Maybe it was at a school that had a lot of macs and they robbed a case cover from a dead one. It's weird, but I'm okay with weird. > That's very true. I've never used a live A/UX system and badly want a > play. I still haven't either. I've got it, and I'm dorking around trying to get my hardware straight (still waiting on AAUI 10BT dongles and a few other bits of kit). Fortunately, it's easy to get a hold on from places like Mac Garden, et al. They have ISOs for NextSTEP and OpenSTEP, too. I'd like to try those on my Quadra 700. I just ordered an extra SCSI2SD for that guy. PS: I like the word "kit" to describe "gear". I hope I'm using it right. I also prefer "grey" over "gray". I hope you British folks don't mind an American bootlegging those terms. Oh, and I'm drinking some Earl Grey. :-) > Tempted to try Shoebill... [...] but emulators aren't the same. I like emulators for "helping" with real hardware. Ie.. making disks or disk images, transferring files, etc.. However, I'm with you, emulators aren't as fun. They are awesome tools, and they are *some* fun, just not as much as the real thing for me. > I guess so -- I don't know all the models that well. There are also > US-model Macs that always remained very scarce in Europe. The G3 > All-in-One is an example -- I've never seen one in the flesh. Well, you guys had Acorn and I never got to play with those, much. Shame that there wasn't more import/export of such things, since more is better. :-) > It's a nice OS, I like and appreciate the NeXTstep heritage, but it's > not a _proper_ Mac. I can't really back up that position, but I totally agree. Not that I have anything "against" OSX. It at least doesn't have an identity-complex that Linux does. It's just it's own thing. They have SUS and UNIX 03 standards conformance, but they don't pretend like they are focused on being a UNIX variant. Apple just goes it's own way and everyone hopes for the best. It's GUI is just it's own unique creation with some very loose visual (and strong code-based) connections back to NeXTSTEP, and has a quality and value all it's own. Linux+systemd desperately wants to be Windows nowadays but adherents still get offended when UNIX purists frown at their "unification" efforts (ala systemd and others) which de-emphasize KISS, small-is-beautiful, make everything a filter, etc... Linux wants to cop that cool, without any binding respect towards the UNIX philosophy. Linux seems the most engaged in the "re-invent it poorly" activity that is so emblematic of why a lot of folks are leaving. Most technologists I know who were long time Linux users are now fleeing to BSD or elsewhere. I read someone say recently of OSX, BSD, and Linux: "Where does Linux belong? OSX makes a far superior workstation and BSD is better on servers. Why do I need Linux again?" I very much agree with the spirit of those questions. That's one thing I liked about IRIX. It's still a true UNIX variant, not "based on UNIX". The GUI is old-looking and primitive by today's standards, but still I think they struck a nice balance or at least one that appeals to me, personally. When it comes to GUI operating systems, I want them to drink the whole bottle of GUI kool-aid. Classic MacOS did that, IMHO. It was totally a desktop OS and didn't try to bifurcate to also make a good server. Hence, Apple turning to A/UX and AIX back in those days for servers. > But I spent real money -- very very rare for me Do you normally just find free stuff or grab folks cast-off items ? The stuff I find cool is too rare and too many other geeks liked. I paid about $150 for the Quadra 700 recently. Most were selling well above that level, but mine didn't have a HDD included (no big deal with SCSI2SD, baby). > -- on upgrading an old 7600 or 7700 I got for free to run OS X 10.0, to > get to know the new OS. More RAM, G3 upgrade, EIDE controller, etc. Then > I got a free Blue'n'White and it was my main machine for a while. I see B&W Macs on Craigslist a lot and for cheap. I want a machine of that generation, too. However, I haven't decided which one, yet. The only PPC box that ever caught my eye was the G4 cube. I see a lot of those on Ebay, but I'm kind of waiting to catch one locally. > Then I switched to Linux full-time and never looked back. I too used Linux from 1993 to about 1997. Then, the more I learned about BSD, the more I liked it. Hordes were flooding in to use Linux by then, so I bailed out. I haven't really run Linux as a workstation since then. I'm a current RHCE and I still interact with Linux a ton at my job, but there is little joy in it. I find myself pursing my lips and shaking my head a lot while fixing systemd problems or working on some dirty PoS of a JBOSS server. It was a nice well when it was first dug, but now it's fouled by too many people and too much toxic admixture. > Me too, although I'd not call my s/w collection massive. There is so much "free stuff" online these days for M68k Macs. You can get just about _anything_ you ever remembered or wanted and it's all considered "abandonware". For me, these "productivity" programs don't change much. A word processor from 1993 is just as good for my purposes as one from 2016. Photoshop still has layers and channels in 5.5, etc.. > But the snag is that 68K means SCSI, and SCSI is a pain when it doesn't work. It sure can be. It's made worse by the stupid stupid fact that Apple's disk utilities don't recognize non-Apple devices without a patch. There are a lot of chicken & egg problems to solve until you can get that FTP client installed. Then it's smooth sailing. :-) > It also means AAUI, ADB, weird monitors, etc. AAUI == Pita. Yet another ugly dongle, too, ugh. I got a Farallon Nubus ethernet card for the Quadra because of this. Unless I'm dealing with fiber, I hate AUIs, MAUs, etc... ADB == Not too big of a deal since KB & mice are still plentiful. However, it's disappointing that there aren't easily accessible converters for PS/2 and USB. RGB == Another PITA, but at least VGA HD15 converters are cheap and work well. > The G3 era meant more standard bits, but the beige machines are still a > classic Mac. They'll take a cheap PCI USB card, you can use vanilla USB > mice, with a graphics card a standard monitor, etc. -- but they're still > _Macs_. They boot to a happy (or sad) Mac, and they run Classic. Those sound a lot easier to cope with. If it wasn't for my love for the 68k, I'd have probably gone that direction, too. Like I said before, I'll probably still get one just to use as a "bridge" for the older gear. Maybe I can get a cheap G4 laptop and avoid sucking up too much more space in my retrolab. > Nice boxes, but they don't feel all that Mac-like to me. Yep. I agree. Perhaps getting too used to the older interface and dynamics pre-biased me. > Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness. > I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and > the style, even if it was binary-incompatible. That would be great. Did you hear about Apple making the marketing change from "OSX" to "MacOS" ? That makes me sad. Some completely irrational part of my brain still dreamed that Apple would license the classic MacOS to a hobbyist shop to continue with new releases etc.. > I wish the Star Trek project had come to some kind of fruition. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project That would have made things a lot more interesting in the 1990s. Windows seems pretty unassailable, but the public can be fickle. I've always wondered why companies don't make operating systems for free, then sell licensing rights, partner deals, driver development, etc... Either you can't make enough $$$ that way, or the draw of charging for the OS is just too lucrative. I'm not sure which it is. -Swift From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Jun 14 11:33:10 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:33:10 -0400 Subject: VCFed auction updates Message-ID: <57d039.711664d2.44918bc5@aol.com> yes there was a vast difference between him and Jobs Ed# In a message dated 6/14/2016 9:32:18 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at snarc.net writes: > Woz sounds like a nice guy. He's incredibly nice. It always impresses me. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Tue Jun 14 11:34:00 2016 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 02:04:00 +0930 Subject: Adapting digital RGBI monitor to accept analog RGB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15/06/2016 01:32, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I am in possession of two Magnavox (North American Philips) CM8562 > monitors. Out of the box they handle composite and digital RGBI (CGA) > input. What I'd like to do is get one to handle analog RGB (like > arcade boards, Amiga, Atari ST, and Apple IIGS put out). I wouldn't > think this was possible, but I seem to have a certain memory that I > saw mention of doing just that *somewhere* on the web a few years > ago, even though I can't find that mention now. > > ... > > So... does anyone know if these monitors can in fact be made to > accept analog RGB? Or have a way I could tell after opening them up? > And, of course, I'd like instructions on just how to do it, if it is > possible. > The schematic details the TTL interface stepping down the 5V levels to 0.7V analog levels, which get sent through three capacitors, C217, C218, and C219 (all schematics) to a CRT driver IC (IC502). If you were to correctly terminate and buffer your analog RGB levels first, you'd only need to feed those signals into the driver IC. The sync signals for analog RGB are usually at TTL levels anyway, so they can go to the normal inputs. Alexis. From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Jun 14 12:13:31 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:13:31 +0000 Subject: MULTOS/8 progress, and a question... Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299981C1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Hi all -- Having overcome my earlier issues with SIMH, I now have MULTOS/8 happily running on the real hardware, with two terminals. (Yay!). I'd like to get the system up to four terminals and here's where I'm running into trouble. I've modified PARAM.PG appropriately (set JOBS to 4, TERMS to 4, and filled in the device codes for the extra terminals). I've rebuilt JOBS.BN and MULTOS, ran BUILD and inserted J1 through J4 and everything runs and the system comes up with 4 terminals (yay!). What isn't working properly are the job devices J1 through J4 -- each of these provides each terminal/user his/her own "virtual" drive on the system's RK05 pack -- effectively it partitions the RK05 into four smaller drives, J1: through J4:. With the two user setup, J1: and J2: are approximately 3000 blocks in size (so each basically gets one side of the RK05 pack). With the four-user setup, I'd expect J1:, J2:, J3: and J4: to each be about 1500 blocks, but they're still reporting as 3000 blocks each. What's more, the actual starting offsets of J1: through J4: appear to be what I'd expect (that is, J1 starts at 0, J2 starts at ~1500, J3 starts at ~3000, etc.). So if I start filling these drives, eventually they clobber each other. The only manual I've found (http://www.pdp8.net/os/multos8/) suggests that these should be appropriately sized (see section 2.1.1) automagically, but this does not seem to be the case; doing a ZERO on them creates a filesystem 3000 blocks in length. I'm digging through the source code to look for clues, but I haven't found anything yet. Anyone fooled with this before? Thanks, Josh From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Jun 14 13:14:34 2016 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 18:14:34 +0000 Subject: MULTOS/8 progress, and a question... In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299981C1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299981C1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299981ED@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Annnd, top-posting with an answer to my own question. One has to patch PIP to modify the size of the partitions; this is actually spewed out during assembly of MULTOS.BN: 2.32. 43 NOTE: SYS DEVICE SIZE = 2720 2.32. 43 NOTE: SET PIP LOCATIONS 13623, 13656, 2.32. 43 NOTE: AND 13657 TO 5060 (Values will vary depending on how your system is configured.) That'll teach me to ignore the output of the assembler when there are no errors :). Use ODT to hack up PIP, SAVE it and you're good. J1: through J4: are now 1432 blocks in length. The SYS: device is still reporting as ~3000 blocks, though. And since it comes with over 2700 blocks filled, I made sure to free up ample space, and did a SQUISH so things won't collide (hopefully.) Hopefully this saves someone some time in the future... - Josh > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh > Dersch > Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 10:14 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: MULTOS/8 progress, and a question... > > Hi all -- > > Having overcome my earlier issues with SIMH, I now have MULTOS/8 happily > running on the real hardware, with two terminals. (Yay!). I'd like to get the > system up to four terminals and here's where I'm running into trouble. > > I've modified PARAM.PG appropriately (set JOBS to 4, TERMS to 4, and filled > in the device codes for the extra terminals). I've rebuilt JOBS.BN and > MULTOS, ran BUILD and inserted J1 through J4 and everything runs and the > system comes up with 4 terminals (yay!). > > What isn't working properly are the job devices J1 through J4 -- each of these > provides each terminal/user his/her own "virtual" drive on the system's RK05 > pack -- effectively it partitions the RK05 into four smaller drives, J1: through > J4:. With the two user setup, J1: and J2: are approximately 3000 blocks in size > (so each basically gets one side of the RK05 pack). With the four-user setup, > I'd expect J1:, J2:, J3: and J4: to each be about 1500 blocks, but they're still > reporting as 3000 blocks each. > > What's more, the actual starting offsets of J1: through J4: appear to be what > I'd expect (that is, J1 starts at 0, J2 starts at ~1500, J3 starts at ~3000, etc.). So > if I start filling these drives, eventually they clobber each other. > > The only manual I've found (http://www.pdp8.net/os/multos8/) suggests > that these should be appropriately sized (see section 2.1.1) automagically, > but this does not seem to be the case; doing a ZERO on them creates a > filesystem 3000 blocks in length. > > I'm digging through the source code to look for clues, but I haven't found > anything yet. > > Anyone fooled with this before? > Thanks, > Josh From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 13:24:42 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:24:42 +0200 Subject: Informer 213 terminal - 3274 / 3178 compatible ? In-Reply-To: <00a001d1c5b2$d7330270$85990750$@gmail.com> References: <000801d1c5ac$cbfe6a30$63fb3e90$@gmail.com> <00a001d1c5b2$d7330270$85990750$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Looking at the documents on the web it looks like the AE is a straight > forward VT100 terminal, the PT was the 3270 version. > If it is an AE it should work with any Unix/Linux/PDP/VAX etc. etc. out of > the box. > > I think that the PT was a version which included a 386SX processor and the AE is a pure terminal. http://bit.ly/1UrQL8Z My guess is that the firmware is the difference between the one I have and the the VT100 version. Possibly the modem board as well. It is not possible to configure it to do anything like bi-sync. There is a setting to configure NRZI or NRZ line coding, nothing else. Let's hope there is someone out there that could dump the EPROMs. I hope to get a response from the guy which shows a VT100 Informer 213 on Youtube. It would be nice to actually use it. Attaching it to something IBMish using VTAM seems unlikely. /Mattis > Dave > G4UGM > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 13:49:52 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 19:49:52 +0100 Subject: Informer 213 terminal - 3274 / 3178 compatible ? In-Reply-To: References: <000801d1c5ac$cbfe6a30$63fb3e90$@gmail.com> <00a001d1c5b2$d7330270$85990750$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004301d1c66d$8a65b030$9f311090$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind > Sent: 14 June 2016 19:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Informer 213 terminal - 3274 / 3178 compatible ? > > > > > Looking at the documents on the web it looks like the AE is a straight > > forward VT100 terminal, the PT was the 3270 version. > > If it is an AE it should work with any Unix/Linux/PDP/VAX etc. etc. > > out of the box. > > > > > I think that the PT was a version which included a 386SX processor and the AE is > a pure terminal. http://bit.ly/1UrQL8Z My guess is that the firmware is the > difference between the one I have and the the VT100 version. Possibly the > modem board as well. > > It is not possible to configure it to do anything like bi-sync. There is a setting to > configure NRZI or NRZ line coding, nothing else. OK so that answers that question. It sounds like its HDLC only... > > Let's hope there is someone out there that could dump the EPROMs. I hope to > get a response from the guy which shows a VT100 Informer 213 on Youtube. It > would be nice to actually use it. Attaching it to something IBMish using VTAM > seems unlikely. > I am not sure about that. There are HDLC to TCPIP gateways e.g. :- https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/zosbasics/com.ibm.zos.znetwork/znetwork_237.htm > /Mattis > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > > From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Jun 14 15:59:10 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 16:59:10 -0400 Subject: Computer History Museum seeks Lotus/Prentice-Hall software Message-ID: <5760701E.8030006@snarc.net> Everyone, CHM contacted me. They're seeking copies (or better yet, original disks) of Lotus Development?s Executive Briefing System for the Apple II and Prentice-Hall?s VCN ExecuVision for the IBM PC. The software is not on Bitsavers, Archive.org, etc. Contact: dbrock at computerhistory.org -Evan From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 18:09:55 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 18:09:55 -0500 Subject: Adapting digital RGBI monitor to accept analog RGB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160614230955.GA79821@gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016, tony duell wrote: > > I am in possession of two Magnavox (North American Philips) CM8562 > > monitors. Out of the box they handle composite and digital RGBI (CGA) > > input. What I'd like to do is get one to handle analog RGB (like arcade > > boards, Amiga, Atari ST, and Apple IIGS put out). I wouldn't think this was > > possible, but I seem to have a certain memory that I saw mention of doing > > My guess is that it is possible. The CRT is an analogue device. There must > be circuitry in the monitor that accepts the 4 digital signals and turns them > into 3 analogue signals to feed to the video amplifiers. So you should be > able to feed in a suitable analogue signal after said conversion stage. > > Last time I was inside a similar Philips monitor, the main PCB was designed > for all possible versions, but only the necessary components were fitted. If > you can get the service manual for the version you want (with analogue > inputs) compare the PCB layout with the version you have to find out what is > missing. > > When I had to do something like this, the hardest part was finding the > right switches and connectors that would fit on the PCB and line up > with the holes in the case. Thanks to both of you. This might give me a goal to work toward while learning electronics. Is the 15kHz RGB signal fundamentally the same as the VGA signal, except at a lower horizontal frequency? If not, how do they differ? -- Eric Christopherson From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 14 20:17:24 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:17:24 -0500 Subject: 2 X 13" green screen monitors available Message-ID: <5760ACA4.4060407@pico-systems.com> I have two brand-new 13" green screen monitors available. We got them at work from a surplus source a LONG time ago, I think to replace failing monitors in Graph-on 140 terminals. These are Motorola DS4003-500 units, with AC power supply for either 120 or 240 V operation. They take a card-edge connector for video and sync. (I think they are RS-170 for composite sync, but I'm not completely sure.) I used a scope to pick up the horizontal frequency, it was 53.6 us or ~ 16.5 KHz. I did power one of them up, and it gave a green raster when the brightness was turned up. Anybody interested? Jon From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 15 06:19:36 2016 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:19:36 +0300 Subject: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 Message-ID: I got just another jewel to my collection, IBM 1620 Model I (G level). Machine has all internals intact, but table top and the typewriter are missing (probably doorway was too narrow back then, parts removed and forgotten somewhere on the journey... ) That table top can be made again, but I would need that right model typewriter. Anyone have a spare..? Also I have another problem with it, memory is suffering wire corrosion (like these all does). So this can be a looooong shot, but if someone have a functional memory or just core array, I'm interested to buy or swap it to something. Photos can be found my blog, link below. Thaaaaanks! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 06:33:53 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:33:53 +0100 Subject: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006f01d1c6f9$cbf73ff0$63e5bfd0$@gmail.com> Some one had one in the Netherlands about 4 years ago... >Erik W. vier321 at hotmail.com via classiccmp.org >26/06/2012 >to cctalk > > >Hi Folks, > I have an original IBM model B computer controlled typewriter witha lot of spares and maintenance manuals available for sale ortrade. This stuff is > impossible to find. As used on the IBM 1620,DEC PDP-1 and many other computers of the era. Useful if you'remaintaining one of those or want to build a > replica/simulator. > Respond to me directly as I'm not a member of this list. > Thanks, Erik > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johannes > Thelen > Sent: 15 June 2016 12:20 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 > > > > > > I got just another jewel to my collection, IBM 1620 Model I (G level). Machine > has all internals intact, but table top and the typewriter are missing (probably > doorway was too narrow back then, parts removed and forgotten somewhere > on the journey... ) That table top can be made again, but I would need that right > model typewriter. Anyone have a spare..? > Also I have another problem with it, memory is suffering wire corrosion (like > these all does). So this can be a looooong shot, but if someone have a functional > memory or just core array, I'm interested to buy or swap it to something. > Photos can be found my blog, link below. > Thaaaaanks! > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 08:13:58 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:13:58 +0000 Subject: Adapting digital RGBI monitor to accept analog RGB In-Reply-To: <20160614230955.GA79821@gmail.com> References: , <20160614230955.GA79821@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Is the 15kHz RGB signal fundamentally the same as the VGA signal, except > at a lower horizontal frequency? If not, how do they differ? Basically, yes. 3 separate analogue video signals, one for each primary colour. The drifference might be the sync signals. VGA has two, basically think of them as one to start a new scan line (horizontal sync), the other to start a new field (vertical sync). Often analogue RGB as a combined (or composite) sync, which is normally the logical XOR of the 2 separate sync signals. Since they are of very different frequencies, they can be separated again in the monitor. There is also 'sync on green'. In this one the sync signals are combined with the green video signal to make something similar to a monchrome composite video signal. With separate red and blue signals. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 09:51:43 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:51:43 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 14 June 2016 at 01:56, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> > System 9.x and before are >> > "something different" for me, a break from my mostly hardcore CLI >> > existence. >> >> Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness. >> I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and >> the style, even if it was binary-incompatible. > > What do you feel is still missing from OS-X today? About the only thing I > can think of is the unique file system, where each file had a data and a > resource fork. This is an interesting question, not directly but as a sort of meta-question. Often, in non-retrocomputing circles, when I express nostalgia for dead platforms, people ask "what is missing?" It's not that anything is _missing_. It's that there are things present that I wish were not present. Note, this doesn't mean that it's theoretically possible to strip down a complex system to make a more simple one. What did I like about classic MacOS? * Simplicity -- the Finder integration with the OS, the desktop database, etc. Move items around, aliases still point to them. Even to other drives, even to other machines on the same network! * Clean conceptual model -- not merely the spatial thing, but the way that you can never see 1 particular icon in more than one place. Open another window to view something already being viewed, the old window closes. * The clean, totally CLI-less nature of it. Atari ST GEM imitated this, but it had the DOS-like legacy baggage of drive letters etc. * The simplicity of the self-arranging magic System folder. Drop in a file, it automatically goes into the right folder, whatever it is -- INITs, CDEVs, etc. Move them _out_ of that folder into, say, the "Disabled Control Panels" folder and bing, it's disabled. Clean, visual, obvious, simple. * Pop-up folders, drawers, etc. -- UI features never recreated on OS X. It was a clean, simple, *elegant* system. Not perfect, no. Snags? Poor interprocess protection, poor VM, poor multitasking, poor stability. >> I wish the Star Trek project had come to some kind of fruition. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project > > Reading that, it sounds like it would have been much like early > Windows---an application that would run on top of MS-DOS (or in this case, > DR-DOS). My impression is that DR-DOS would have been a bootloader, little more. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 10:08:15 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:08:15 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 June 2016 at 18:31, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: >> Might have got it like that & never noticed...? > > He claimed to be the original owner, and he was a teacher. He probably got > it as part of some educational program, maybe it was used then. I dunno. > Maybe it was at a school that had a lot of macs and they robbed a case > cover from a dead one. It's weird, but I'm okay with weird. :-) >> That's very true. I've never used a live A/UX system and badly want a >> play. > > I still haven't either. I've got it, and I'm dorking around trying to get > my hardware straight (still waiting on AAUI 10BT dongles and a few other > bits of kit). Fortunately, it's easy to get a hold on from places like Mac > Garden, et al. They have ISOs for NextSTEP and OpenSTEP, too. I'd like to > try those on my Quadra 700. I just ordered an extra SCSI2SD for that guy. > > PS: I like the word "kit" to describe "gear". I hope I'm using it right. I > also prefer "grey" over "gray". I hope you British folks don't mind an > American bootlegging those terms. Oh, and I'm drinking some Earl Grey. :-) In Ireland, "gear" means hard drugs, so maybe it's safer! >> Tempted to try Shoebill... [...] but emulators aren't the same. > > I like emulators for "helping" with real hardware. Ie.. making disks or > disk images, transferring files, etc.. However, I'm with you, emulators > aren't as fun. They are awesome tools, and they are *some* fun, just not > as much as the real thing for me. This is why I spent money on getting my ZX Spectrums restored. :-) >> I guess so -- I don't know all the models that well. There are also >> US-model Macs that always remained very scarce in Europe. The G3 >> All-in-One is an example -- I've never seen one in the flesh. > > Well, you guys had Acorn and I never got to play with those, much. Shame > that there wasn't more import/export of such things, since more is better. > :-) Indeed! >> It's a nice OS, I like and appreciate the NeXTstep heritage, but it's >> not a _proper_ Mac. > > I can't really back up that position, but I totally agree. Not that I have > anything "against" OSX. It at least doesn't have an identity-complex that > Linux does. It's just it's own thing. They have SUS and UNIX 03 standards > conformance, but they don't pretend like they are focused on being a UNIX > variant. Apple just goes it's own way and everyone hopes for the best. > It's GUI is just it's own unique creation with some very loose visual (and > strong code-based) connections back to NeXTSTEP, and has a quality and > value all it's own. Agreed. > Linux+systemd desperately wants to be Windows nowadays I think that's an overstatement, almost an actionable one. TBH I'm happy to see _more_ differentiation between, for example, Linux and the other FOSS Unices. There wasn't that much to choose between them before. > but adherents still get offended when UNIX purists frown at their > "unification" efforts (ala systemd and others) which de-emphasize KISS, > small-is-beautiful, make everything a filter, etc... Kinda. But only kinda. The original goals of simplicity, consistency etc. were lost -- no, thrown away -- *decades* ago. Unix is almost the definitions of big, complex, arcane, and scary these days. >From what I've seen, systemd makes things like enabling/disabling services _simpler_ for your average Joe. > Linux wants to cop > that cool, without any binding respect towards the UNIX philosophy. No, I disagree. It's moving on. It's abandoning some of the legacy stuff, but there are loads of other OSes that are keeping it. > Linux seems the most engaged in the "re-invent it poorly" activity that is > so emblematic of why a lot of folks are leaving. I am seeing a lot of flouncing off in a huff. I'm /not/ seeing drops in adoption, use, any of that. > Most technologists I know > who were long time Linux users are now fleeing to BSD or elsewhere. People are _saying_ it. Are they _doing_ it? > I read > someone say recently of OSX, BSD, and Linux: "Where does Linux belong? OSX > makes a far superior workstation ... but is proprietary, closed-source, runs only on expensive (but good) proprietary hardware... > and BSD is better on servers. *Ridiculously* contentious. I'm seeing and hearing of little _real_ adoption. Some posturing, yes, but Linux's breadth of driver support, apps, functionality, automation, pretty much everything, means it's the dominant server platform of the WWW. And Android is still selling a *billion devices a year!* http://www.androidheadlines.com/2016/04/q1-2016-smartphone-sales-samsung-crushed-apple.html So it's pretty dominant on the client side, too. BSD is _nowhere_ by comparison. A rounding error. > Why do I > need Linux again?" I very much agree with the spirit of those questions. I am very happy if systemd /et al/ mean a boost in BSD adoption, takeup, development, etc. I'm not sure I'm seeing it though. > That's one thing I liked about IRIX. It's still a true UNIX variant, not > "based on UNIX". The GUI is old-looking and primitive by today's > standards, but still I think they struck a nice balance or at least one > that appeals to me, personally. It's dead, though, isn't it? > When it comes to GUI operating systems, I want them to drink the whole > bottle of GUI kool-aid. Classic MacOS did that, IMHO. It was totally a > desktop OS and didn't try to bifurcate to also make a good server. Hence, > Apple turning to A/UX and AIX back in those days for servers. Agreed. Although it's not alone. AIUI things like AROS and Haiku are just as GUI-centric, it's just that they have shells _as well_. >> But I spent real money -- very very rare for me > > Do you normally just find free stuff or grab folks cast-off items ? Yep! > The > stuff I find cool is too rare and too many other geeks liked. I paid about > $150 for the Quadra 700 recently. Most were selling well above that level, > but mine didn't have a HDD included (no big deal with SCSI2SD, baby). > >> -- on upgrading an old 7600 or 7700 I got for free to run OS X 10.0, to >> get to know the new OS. More RAM, G3 upgrade, EIDE controller, etc. Then >> I got a free Blue'n'White and it was my main machine for a while. > > I see B&W Macs on Craigslist a lot and for cheap. I want a machine of that > generation, too. However, I haven't decided which one, yet. The only PPC > box that ever caught my eye was the G4 cube. I see a lot of those on Ebay, > but I'm kind of waiting to catch one locally. They were nice. I'm almost tempted but I think I'll stick with mainly portables from now on. >> Then I switched to Linux full-time and never looked back. > > I too used Linux from 1993 to about 1997. Then, the more I learned about > BSD, the more I liked it. Hordes were flooding in to use Linux by then, so > I bailed out. I haven't really run Linux as a workstation since then. I'm > a current RHCE and I still interact with Linux a ton at my job, but there > is little joy in it. I find myself pursing my lips and shaking my head a > lot while fixing systemd problems or working on some dirty PoS of a JBOSS > server. It was a nice well when it was first dug, but now it's fouled by > too many people and too much toxic admixture. I've been using Unix since 1989 or so. I would not call myself an expert, but I'm competent at a basic level. I've installed quite a few machines, including in production environments. I have so far not learned enough to get a bare CLI FreeBSD install online with a GUI. It seems to me to make things unnecessarily obstructive. >> Me too, although I'd not call my s/w collection massive. > > There is so much "free stuff" online these days for M68k Macs. You can get > just about _anything_ you ever remembered or wanted and it's all > considered "abandonware". For me, these "productivity" programs don't > change much. A word processor from 1993 is just as good for my purposes as > one from 2016. Photoshop still has layers and channels in 5.5, etc.. Oh, yes, true. Although keep a virus scanner running: those downloads are often infected IME. >> But the snag is that 68K means SCSI, and SCSI is a pain when it doesn't work. > > It sure can be. It's made worse by the stupid stupid fact that Apple's > disk utilities don't recognize non-Apple devices without a patch. There > are a lot of chicken & egg problems to solve until you can get that FTP > client installed. Then it's smooth sailing. :-) I used to keep a few disks around with SilverLining, a D3 driver and a few other things. Still a PITA though. >> It also means AAUI, ADB, weird monitors, etc. > > AAUI == Pita. Yet another ugly dongle, too, ugh. I got a Farallon Nubus > ethernet card for the Quadra because of this. Unless I'm dealing with > fiber, I hate AUIs, MAUs, etc... So glad they eventually wised up and adopted standard connectors. > ADB == Not too big of a deal since KB & mice are still plentiful. However, > it's disappointing that there aren't easily accessible converters for PS/2 > and USB. > > RGB == Another PITA, but at least VGA HD15 converters are cheap and work > well. My experience is different re availability of both. :-( >> The G3 era meant more standard bits, but the beige machines are still a >> classic Mac. They'll take a cheap PCI USB card, you can use vanilla USB >> mice, with a graphics card a standard monitor, etc. -- but they're still >> _Macs_. They boot to a happy (or sad) Mac, and they run Classic. > > Those sound a lot easier to cope with. If it wasn't for my love for the > 68k, I'd have probably gone that direction, too. Like I said before, I'll > probably still get one just to use as a "bridge" for the older gear. Maybe > I can get a cheap G4 laptop and avoid sucking up too much more space in my > retrolab. You do need quite a chain to span from SD/DD disks for a Mac+ or something up to DVDs for late-era PowerPC machines. :-( >> Nice boxes, but they don't feel all that Mac-like to me. > > Yep. I agree. Perhaps getting too used to the older interface and dynamics > pre-biased me. > >> Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness. >> I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and >> the style, even if it was binary-incompatible. > > That would be great. Did you hear about Apple making the marketing change > from "OSX" to "MacOS" ? That makes me sad. Some completely irrational part > of my brain still dreamed that Apple would license the classic MacOS to a > hobbyist shop to continue with new releases etc.. The new monicker is macOS [sic]. Fits with iOS, watchOS, tvOS, etc. So, macOS Sierra. Sounds daft to me. :-/ >> I wish the Star Trek project had come to some kind of fruition. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project > > That would have made things a lot more interesting in the 1990s. Windows > seems pretty unassailable, but the public can be fickle. I've always > wondered why companies don't make operating systems for free, then sell > licensing rights, partner deals, driver development, etc... Either you > can't make enough $$$ that way, or the draw of charging for the OS is just > too lucrative. I'm not sure which it is. It's changing. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Jun 15 10:23:20 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:23:20 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160615152320.GA31351@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 04:51:43PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: [...] > * Simplicity -- the Finder integration with the OS, the desktop database, > etc. Move items around, aliases still point to them. Even to other drives, > even to other machines on the same network! Not that I'm any fan of Windows, but don't NTFS junctions do this? They're a kind of cross-volume hard link. From christopher1400 at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 11:17:01 2016 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 09:17:01 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> Message-ID: Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any wear on the legends. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 10:35:56 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:35:56 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 Message-ID: OK. I must be missing something here Does anyone have a M7800 (DL11) set for 9600 b N71 or N81 jumper'd with the default address for use as a serial terminal interface? I understand the other jumpers on the card, but the address and vector jumpers confuse me. I can't seem to find a table or a "here is the default for console" or I don't get it. I have the manual, I want I believe 777560, but I cannot find "table 5-2" referred to in my copy of the manual. Can someone give me a couple of examples "if you have Ax Ay Az connected then that represents address ------- . I am looking at the manual and web sites on the subject and I think for use as a simple serial terminal interface I need to jumper "in" *A9, A7, A5, A4, A3* ... correct? Vector jumpers *V6, V7 "*in" . Just curious if anyone can help me specifically not indirectly what I need, super thanks in advance. Thanks Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 15 11:42:39 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 09:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a > lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any > wear on the legends. I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 15 12:01:05 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 M7800 Message-ID: <20160615170105.2A83918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > Does anyone have a M7800 (DL11) set for 9600 b N71 or N81 jumper'd with > the default address for use as a serial terminal interface? Yup. (And BTW the baud's not jumpers, it's the dials.) > I understand the other jumpers on the card, but the address and vector > jumpers confuse me. Join the crew... :-) The simple rule on the DL11 is that vector jumpers are the inverse of address jumpers: for the vector, jumpers are 'in' for '1', and for the address, they are 'in' for '0'. > I think for use as a simple serial terminal interface I need to jumper > "in" *A9, A7, A5, A4, A3* ... correct? Vector jumpers *V6, V7 "*in" . You mean for the console, right? (All DL11's are 'simple serial terminal interfaces' ;-). The jumpers you give are for DL11 #1, address 776500, vector 300. For 777560/60 (standard for the console), you want A7/A3 and V4/V5 'in'. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 12:05:51 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:05:51 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: <20160615170105.2A83918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160615170105.2A83918C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > Does anyone have a M7800 (DL11) set for 9600 b N71 or N81 jumper'd > with > > the default address for use as a serial terminal interface? > > Yup. (And BTW the baud's not jumpers, it's the dials.) > You are correct, dials are in the 9600 b position for my crystal. > > > I understand the other jumpers on the card, but the address and > vector > > jumpers confuse me. > > Join the crew... :-) > > The simple rule on the DL11 is that vector jumpers are the inverse of > address > jumpers: for the vector, jumpers are 'in' for '1', and for the address, > they > are 'in' for '0'. > OMG > > > I think for use as a simple serial terminal interface I need to > jumper > > "in" *A9, A7, A5, A4, A3* ... correct? Vector jumpers *V6, V7 "*in" . > > You mean for the console, right? (All DL11's are 'simple serial terminal > interfaces' ;-). > > Yes, so I can use a terminal with the machine, I need a working terminal. > The jumpers you give are for DL11 #1, address 776500, vector 300. For > 777560/60 (standard for the console), you want A7/A3 and V4/V5 'in'. > > I think you mean 60/64, right? > Noel > thanks b From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 12:06:42 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:06:42 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available Message-ID: I have a PDP-11/23 with two RL02 drives, in a third party rack, that I need to rehome. The PDP does not have any cards installed! Nothing has been tested. Available! Cheap! Always open to trades. The rack is a shorty, and I could deliver it within reason. I still have those MINC-11 cards, too. -- Will, in IBM land NY From mark.darvill at mac.com Wed Jun 15 12:35:54 2016 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:35:54 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Will, Where are you located? Thanks, Mark Sent from my iPhone > On 15 Jun 2016, at 18:06, William Donzelli wrote: > > I have a PDP-11/23 with two RL02 drives, in a third party rack, that I > need to rehome. The PDP does not have any cards installed! Nothing has > been tested. > > Available! Cheap! Always open to trades. The rack is a shorty, and I > could deliver it within reason. > > I still have those MINC-11 cards, too. > > -- > Will, in IB From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 15 12:51:25 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 M7800 Message-ID: <20160615175125.91E8F18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > OMG Yeah, but look at it this way: their being inverted can be a memory jogger - 'Oh, the DL11, that effed-up interface where the jumper sense is inverted between address and vector!' Then you only have to look up one of the two.. :-) > Yes, so I can use a terminal with the machine, I need a working > terminal. "Terminal" != "console". (Or, rather, the latter is a unitary subset of the former.) The 'system console' is, by definition, on all PDP-11's, a DL11-type serial interface at 777560. However, it may have many 'terminals'! :-) >> For 777560/60 (standard for the console), you want A7/A3 and V4/V5 'in'. > I think you mean 60/64, right? Sort of (unless you mean 'instead of 777560/60, you meant 60/64, right?'). 777560 is the base address, 60 is the base vector. The receiver registers are 777560-2, and the transmitter are 777564-6, but on the DL11, one can only set the base of the entire group of 4 registers, one can't move the transmit and receive around independently. Similarly for the vector, one can only set the base; the receive (B) and transmit (B+4) are paired in the hardware. Hence, "777560/60". Noel From azd30 at telus.net Wed Jun 15 12:51:45 2016 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:51:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479950734.18226929.1466013105547.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Darvill" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:35:54 AM > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 system available > > Hi Will, > > Where are you located? > > Thanks, Mark > Looking at his signature, I'd guess he's in Yorktown Heights, NY or maybe Rochester NY. Unless there's other IBM lands in NY ?!? > > -- > > Will, in IBM land in NY > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 15 12:55:35 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 10:55:35 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D9B4A45-04EC-4020-B64A-1B6D4A6A26D6@nf6x.net> > On Jun 15, 2016, at 10:06 , William Donzelli wrote: > > I have a PDP-11/23 with two RL02 drives, in a third party rack, that I > need to rehome. The PDP does not have any cards installed! Nothing has > been tested. It's a shame that it wasn't in the back of your van back at MRCG last month. ;) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From mark.darvill at mac.com Wed Jun 15 12:58:06 2016 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:58:06 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: <479950734.18226929.1466013105547.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> References: <479950734.18226929.1466013105547.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Message-ID: <7D16F9CA-F48D-4F2B-8901-4537C1B471DB@mac.com> Odd all I saw on the email that came to me was: Will, in IB Mark Sent from my iPhone > On 15 Jun 2016, at 18:51, azd30 wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mark Darvill" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:35:54 AM >> Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 system available >> >> Hi Will, >> >> Where are you located? >> >> Thanks, Mark > > Looking at his signature, I'd guess he's in Yorktown Heights, NY or maybe Rochester NY. Unless there's other IBM lands in NY ?!? > >>> -- >>> Will, in IBM land in NY >>> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:06:25 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:06:25 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: <479950734.18226929.1466013105547.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> References: <479950734.18226929.1466013105547.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Message-ID: > Looking at his signature, I'd guess he's in Yorktown Heights, NY or maybe Rochester NY. Unless there's other IBM lands in NY ?!? IBM Rochester generally refers to the Minnesota Rochester, although there is an IBM presence in New York Rochester. Anyway, IBM Land NY generally means the lower tier and the Hudson Valley. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:08:36 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:08:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: <1D9B4A45-04EC-4020-B64A-1B6D4A6A26D6@nf6x.net> References: <1D9B4A45-04EC-4020-B64A-1B6D4A6A26D6@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > It's a shame that it wasn't in the back of your van back at MRCG last month. ;) No room! Although by the time you saw me at MRCG, I had shed almost all my cargo. I really want this rack to go away, so I really can not hold this for you for a year or two, sorry. But, if it goes unclaimed (unlikely), I could, I suppose. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:08:55 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:08:55 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: <7D16F9CA-F48D-4F2B-8901-4537C1B471DB@mac.com> References: <479950734.18226929.1466013105547.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> <7D16F9CA-F48D-4F2B-8901-4537C1B471DB@mac.com> Message-ID: Can't explain that... -- Will On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Mark Darvill wrote: > Odd all I saw on the email that came to me was: > > Will, in IB > > Mark > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 15 Jun 2016, at 18:51, azd30 wrote: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mark Darvill" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:35:54 AM >>> Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 system available >>> >>> Hi Will, >>> >>> Where are you located? >>> >>> Thanks, Mark >> >> Looking at his signature, I'd guess he's in Yorktown Heights, NY or maybe Rochester NY. Unless there's other IBM lands in NY ?!? >> >>>> -- >>>> Will, in IBM land in NY >>>> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:11:47 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:11:47 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suppose I should say that since I have a shipping dock here, I can load it onto a skid and ship it - but YOU would have to set up ALL the shipping. Basically, I would put it on a skid and give the truck driver a cup of coffee - that's it. -- Will On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 1:06 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I have a PDP-11/23 with two RL02 drives, in a third party rack, that I > need to rehome. The PDP does not have any cards installed! Nothing has > been tested. > > Available! Cheap! Always open to trades. The rack is a shorty, and I > could deliver it within reason. > > I still have those MINC-11 cards, too. > > -- > Will, in IBM land NY From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 15 13:18:06 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:18:06 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/23 system available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 15, 2016, at 11:11 , William Donzelli wrote: > > I suppose I should say that since I have a shipping dock here, I can > load it onto a skid and ship it - but YOU would have to set up ALL the > shipping. Basically, I would put it on a skid and give the truck > driver a cup of coffee - that's it. I'll let somebody else adopt this particular system (and I'm sure it won't take long). I was just commenting on my general lack of self control when a cool toy is sitting right in front of me. :) But if I hadn't already shipped a pallet of RL02 drives from New York a couple of years ago, then I'd probably be buying your rack now! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:23:54 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:23:54 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: <20160615175125.91E8F18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160615175125.91E8F18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: OK. > For 777560/60 (standard for the console), you want A7/A3 and V4/V5 'in'. I intend to use a serial terminal to access the console via M912 CONSOLE ROM. I believe you're saying to connect A7/A3 and V4/V5, but I still don't understand the pattern. What would A4, A5, A6 and V7, V6, V3 represent (what the card has now)? Is there a table with the jumpers and values somewhere? Specifically something that lists all jumper combos and their corresponding addresses? Thanks Bill From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:39:05 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:39:05 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > In Ireland, "gear" means hard drugs, so maybe it's safer! Whoa. I didn't know that. You are right. I'll have to convert to using "kit" exclusively next time I'm in the UK. I'm usually just in Heathrow or Gatwick waiting to fly out to Oslo. I still have some friends in Norway I visit every 5-10 years. They speak British English, too. So, for all I know they might think the same in Oslo. However, I don't remember hearing that particular term there when I lived in Norway about 15 years ago. However, I lived in a little town called Moss, and there wasn't much in the way of hard drugs to talk about, hehe. :-) > This is why I spent money on getting my ZX Spectrums restored. :-) Rock on. That sounds fun. Those are some cute little micros. > > Linux+systemd desperately wants to be Windows nowadays > I think that's an overstatement, almost an actionable one. I cite the similarities between 'svchost' and 'systemd'. Despite the desperate hand-waving that they are "nothing alike" or "have completely different functions" by systemd apologists, my opinion is that they are *extremely* similar in both form and function and those people just don't like that the truth hurts and wears and ugly M$ mask, to add further insult. They want to duck, obfuscate, or deny the fact that Linux just made the exact same *mistake*. In fact, systemd probably has even more functionality centralized and rolled into one set of tools than 'svchost' does. I don't mean to attack you or your opinions, Liam. I'm just explaining my basis for the statement about Linux wanting to be Windows, nowadays. While that's probably an exaggeration, it's still got some nasty and uncomfortable similarities. > TBH I'm happy to see _more_ differentiation between, for example, Linux > and the other FOSS Unices. There wasn't that much to choose between them > before. That's a good and healthy perspective. I think the core problem with the systemd drama is that it's created a schism in an area that some naive folks like me thought there could/would never be one. Politicians, business weasels, mafiosos, and lawyers are the ones who are supposed to have these kinds of ugly disagreements, not geeks. That was my mindset, I think. It's shocked me quite a bit to see the whole thing go down and to understand that there was a "new breed" of folks who saw discarding the UNIX philosophy as a natural progression, not a denigration or regression of first principles. > Kinda. But only kinda. The original goals of simplicity, consistency > etc. were lost -- no, thrown away -- *decades* ago. Unix is almost the > definitions of big, complex, arcane, and scary these days. Hmm, that's hard to argue with as I think of the commercial variants. However, I think the BSDs have stayed out of this trap and devised some fairly clever strategies (like ports/pkgsrc) to keep them above the fray and true to their values. However, there are three projects (net/free/open) and if one goes off the rails, it's easy to turn to the others. However, if we are talking about Solaris 11 or AIX 7.2, okay yah, having to ship your OS on a DVD is pulling your RV into Stupidtown and staying parked. Right there with you. My last NetBSD -current install a week or two ago was @280M (full install, uncompressed). So, there are still very lightweight choices available. > From what I've seen, systemd makes things like enabling/disabling > services _simpler_ for your average Joe. Well, I work with both consulting gigs and direct client support for other Linux admins. So, I directly work with systemd and with users who struggle with it. I've written some in depth documentation for systemd. It's about the same from the user point of view. I mean, "service mysqld start" isn't much different from "systemctl start mysqld". If you mean that it'd be easier for a user to setup a unit file than a script; probably so. However, most packages/software come with a script or unit file anyway (or both in some cases). I don't think systemd is significantly easier or harder for users, honestly. It's just different at that level. It's what's under the hood and the way it was done that's more controversial. > > Linux wants to cop that cool, without any binding respect towards the > > UNIX philosophy. > No, I disagree. It's moving on. It's abandoning some of the legacy > stuff, but there are loads of other OSes that are keeping it. Well, I respect your opinion, but I think you might be missing my particular point. They might see what they are doing as "moving on", but folks who revere and respect UNIX as a set of ideas see that as a betrayal of those ideas. Ie.. like saying you are "moving on" from your wife to your mistress. It's definitely a change, but it's also breaking faith with someone who trusted you. Right or wrong, justified or not, that's how a lot of people felt. Also, the underlying point that I was really trying to make is that I get a sense from newly minted Linux zealots that they don't feel they've done anything "against" the UNIX way, they see their actions as coherent with it. I would disagree if I could catch my breath and stop laughing at them. I think they are deluding themselves for the sake of trying to hold on to some cache' associated with UNIX. That's an association that Linux deserves less than it did pre-systemd (again, my opinion, not trying to state it as a fact). Heck at this point, Linux is probably more well known than UNIX is, so why do folks get so butthurt & riled when some old "greybeards" like myself or Brian Kernighan look askance at their latest dramas and threaten to take away their UNIX card (speaking figuratively of course) ? My answer on offer is "Because UNIX has some street cred that Linux users want to (at this point falsely) lay claim to." That's my real point. > I am seeing a lot of flouncing off in a huff. I'm /not/ seeing drops in > adoption, use, any of that. Well, neither am I, really. It's just super-uber-geek stuff and probably a tempest in a teacup to everyone else. Linux has incredible momentum right now. So, does Windows. TBH, most of the folks who made a big show of flouncing off were already gone. I walked away from Linux a long time before systemd exited the collective Linux colon. I'd imagine most people making noise about systemd probably did the same. So, you are right, it probably didn't polarize anyone who wasn't already there. However, it's like watching an ex-girlfriend start dating a drug dealer. You don't really care *that* much, but you still shake your head and wonder what happened. > > who were long time Linux users are now fleeing to BSD or elsewhere. > People are _saying_ it. Are they _doing_ it? Hmm, it's pretty hard to say for sure. I did see a noticeable (not huge) influx of pretty hardcore Linux users show up on the FreeBSD forums and mailing lists during the hottest parts of the systemd drama. However, I'd hesitate to call that anything but anecdotal. Then again, for me it's always been quality over quantity. So, if only a handful did jump ship and move to BSD, well... it's probably the handful we wanted. The rest of them not only can stay with Linux, they really really should stay there. It goes back to the pristine-beach example where if you find a pristine beach, you might think twice about building an easy road to get there and trying to tell everyone about it. Otherwise, it's not going to be pristine for long, and will eventually morph into something you hate, with a McDonalds and a Disney gift shop out there. It won't just be other nature lovers visiting for long. > ... but is proprietary, closed-source, runs only on expensive (but good) > proprietary hardware... That's a fair point. Also, I was repeating/quoting something I'm seeing on forums and Reddit, I'm not sure I'd agree that OSX + BSD encompass the ultimate solution to all problems either. There are definitely some people who feel more comfortable with those values. Plus, Linux is free and that has a ton of value that OSX can't compete with also. Schoolkids in 3rd world countries are much better served by Linux than OSX, as far as I can tell. The Apple hardware and licensing is just too expensive for some uses. > > and BSD is better on servers. > *Ridiculously* contentious. I'm seeing and hearing of little _real_ > adoption. I should have been more specific and said "some feel like it's better for servers." In reality, I'll be realistic here, it's not "better" it's just different. I regularly work with Linux servers with many years of uptime on them. I see it run very stable and securely in the majority of jobs people put it to. FreeBSD also lacks a lot of features vis-a-vis Linux. The LVM2 feature list is longer than GEOM's, DRBD is more functional than HAST. The majority of the LVM code in NetBSD is ported over from Linux and they shaved a few features there, too. Linux supports many more graphics cards and weird server hardware. So, there is *definitely* going to be places that, in practical terms, Linux might be a great choice and even "better" than FreeBSD. I don't think for a minute that my horror at systemd changes any of the latter facts. It's a value-system thing for me, personally. I don't have the hubris to believe it's bigger than that. > Some posturing, yes, but Linux's breadth of driver support, apps, > functionality, automation, pretty much everything, means it's the > dominant server platform of the WWW. I won't argue that one bit. I agree. However, I don't think any of the points I'm trying to make are either validated nor repudiated by the sheer volume that Linux gets used. It's a value-system argument by a specialist to other specialists. To an Android or set-top-box user, all this is laughable. They could care less and I get that. > And Android is still selling a *billion devices a year!* So it's pretty > dominant on the client side, too. Sure, but as a desktop or server OS, Android, oh man, I don't even know where to start. I'll just say that you won't find me buying any Android desktops or servers in the near future, no matter how many lemmings run off that particular cliff. I like my illusion of *some* privacy, too, but I digress. > BSD is _nowhere_ by comparison. A rounding error. I wholeheartedly agree and quietly hope that it stays that way. Hordes of humans don't tend to improve things. There is a sweet spot that BSD hits nicely for me. Remember all the talk by Linux users about "world domination" ? I say "Be careful what you wish for." They basically have achieved world-renown and, as you point out, MASSIVE popularity beyond most peoples expectations. However, large-scale-adoption doesn't buy you street cred with everybody. I'm not a Beyonce' fan, either, and she's hella popular. Some people have a more specific value scale. The world might not care, but that's cool, we don't care about the world, either. :-) > I am very happy if systemd /et al/ mean a boost in BSD adoption, takeup, > development, etc. I'm not sure I'm seeing it though. Well, you have very reasonable attitude. I'm guessing to most people, you sound much more enlightened on the topic. I'm sure I probably come across as "raving" or like some kind of inflexible purist. Again, this all comes down to first principles, not a contest about what gets the most use and adoption. The value associated wide adoption isn't something germane to my assessment of worth in this case. > It's dead, though, isn't it? Yes. IRIX is dead as a doornail. Also, with the way it died, I'd give about 1000:1 odds of any legal form of IRIX ever re-surfacing. However, I noticed that the source is floating around several places. Maybe some illegal/hobbyist/illicit stuff might eventually see the light, but I doubt it. It seems to me even the forums on Nekochan are slowing down. I still use it and love it, and I have no problems securing it for "real world" stuff. However, it's nothing but a hobby, nowadays. > Agreed. Although it's not alone. AIUI things like AROS and Haiku are > just as GUI-centric, it's just that they have shells _as well_. Yes, and I wish both of those projects well. I've actually donated money to both projects. Like you, I like lots of OS's floating around. My world would be terribly boring with just one or two. > >> But I spent real money -- very very rare for me > > Do you normally just find free stuff or grab folks cast-off items ? > Yep! Cool; you're a true scrounger, then! I might have been tempted to try that, but my nostalgia always seems to come a day late and a dollar short. They gear is always rare and priced-up by the time I care. SGIs were the only thing I was smart enough to horde up at the time they were cheap and current. Macs, Amigas, etc.. I have to revisit on Ebay. :-/ > They were nice. I'm almost tempted but I think I'll stick with mainly > portables from now on. That definitely saves on space. However, I tend to keep laptops in bags with all the other kit that comes with them. So, nowadays I have to consider the size of the bag not just the laptop. When I do that, sometimes a small desktop can still make sense. However, not in this case. I've had to purge some other stuff to make room. I got rid of some junk PCs and monitors. The RGB monitors for the 68k Macs take serious space. I only have one right now. It's the AppleVision 14" that came with this 660AV. I thought it was junk, but it's really just beat up. The real problem was the PRAM battery. Once I replaced that, the machine booted up fine and the monitor powers on once it sees the video signal. It's a bit out of focus, but I took the cover off and adjusted the pots on the CRT logic board to my liking. It looks very nice, now. > I've been using Unix since 1989 or so. I would not call myself an > expert, but I'm competent at a basic level. I've installed quite a few > machines, including in production environments. Cool. That's longer than me. I started in 1992 with HPUX, then 1993 with Linux, then @1997 or so with BSD and went nuts with tons of other variants, too. That was my "UNIX World Tour" time (the mid-1990s). I wanted to learn them ALL (and I'm still trying). I've been pretty obsessed with UNIX since day-one. It was definitely love at first sight. > I have so far not learned enough to get a bare CLI FreeBSD install > online with a GUI. It seems to me to make things unnecessarily > obstructive. Hmm. I think you'd fly right through it, Liam. You are a smart guy, I doubt you'd have any significant problems these days. Still, it's a console-based install. FreeBSD guys know that it's really damn hard do a graphical install on a machine that's setup on a serial mux. I think OS vendors radically underestimate how many machines are in that configuration. Since I work with customers who have fairly large data centers, I see that all the time. However, I know that the character based installation puts a lot of people off. I do, nonetheless revel in the fact that it's still that way. Also, if you haven't seen the new 'pkg' (package management tool ala 'apt-get') that's come out for FreeBSD in the last few years, I think you'd be impressed. It's extremely solid. Still, it's definitely not for everyone. > Oh, yes, true. Although keep a virus scanner running: those downloads > are often infected IME. I got that impression a bit from some forum posts about Mac Garden and others. I have already found one (virus) on a compilation CDROM. So, I'm definitely going to heed that advice. Still, I've never seen such a large and attractive "endowment" of software waiting in the wings. There are still *far* more games on the M68k macs, for example, than I can get for Linux (just volume-wise). Though there have been some great games for Linux that have come out recently (Age of Wonders III comes to mind). SteamOS is struggling with adoption, but there are some great games around as part of the effort. > I used to keep a few disks around with SilverLining, a D3 driver and a > few other things. Still a PITA though. Man, I wish I had done that. I had to go burn a bunch of shareware CDs to get Stuffit, BinHex, patched HD tools, etc... Until you have that stuff you are well and truly stuck. > You do need quite a chain to span from SD/DD disks for a Mac+ or > something up to DVDs for late-era PowerPC machines. :-( Yeah, I'm not quite intrepid enough to want to collect any 68000-based macs. They didn't start to interest me until the Mac IIfx/IIci days and the 040' came around. You can all get a belly laugh from the fact that the main reason I got a Quadra 700 is that it looks so damn cool in Jurassic Park (and it runs A/UX). :-P > The new monicker is macOS [sic]. Fits with iOS, watchOS, tvOS, etc. So, > macOS Sierra. Sounds daft to me. :-/ Ugh. When I saw that on OSnews or Slashdot or wherever, I let out a big sigh, because it's *hard enough* to find 68k-related stuff. Market-droids these days can only act on previous programming. That's why we have so many Marvel movies and "reboots" / "re-imagined" versions of older movies. Real creativity must be approved by the corporate board (and doesn't get approved). -Swift From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jun 15 13:40:08 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:40:08 -0500 Subject: [OT] Beta Max and other OLD still and motion cameras Message-ID: <0d8401d1c735$57d620a0$078261e0$@com> There is a pallet of these in St. Louis, MO, going for scrap prices. Some are more recent. If anyone is interested, I can get you contact info. He will sell the pallet, but not by the piece. Units are dirty, untested, may be incomplete, etc. I am not affiliated with the seller in any way. https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21182.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21196.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21205.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21215.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21225.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21235.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21296.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21245.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21306.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21316.JPG https://s3.amazonaws.com/listingattachments.tradeloop.com/000_21827.JPG Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 500 Pershing Ave. Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:47:23 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:47:23 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM ? Message-ID: On older Apple 68k machines, having an Apple-branded CDROM means you can be assured it'll boot (though it's rumored that many generic SCSI CDROMs work for booting) and also that it'll "just work" on most of the OSs. I'm guessing it's a simple check to see if the vendor in the firmware is "APPLE". Has anyone ever managed to hack the firmware of something like a Yamaha, Pioneer, or Plextor drive so that it lies and says it's "APPLE" thus being fully enabled by the OS & hardware ? Does anyone know anything about flashing CDROM firmware and the dynamics of such things? I wonder if it'd just be a matter of a simple hexedit/byte-patch on the firmware image then load it up... Is this a bogus idea? The reason for this is that if it's possible, I could buy a Pioneer slot loading SCSI CDROM drive, stuff it into my Quadra 660AV, and then hack it to "just work" instead of needing drivers et al. The slot cover isn't big enough for a normal tray-drive CDROM to work. Thus I can only use a CD300i caddy-based drive (or theoretically - a slot drive). My 300i is a bit of PoS and even after I cleaned it, the thing still has a lot of read problems. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:48:06 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:48:06 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <2F7945C5-C1C3-480F-B006-9A0503C2F5E1@eschatologist.net> <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote: > I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses. I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO. -Swift From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 15 14:16:49 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 M7800 Message-ID: <20160615191649.81FE418C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan >> For 777560/60 (standard for the console), you want A7/A3 and V4/V5 >> 'in'. > I intend to use a serial terminal to access the console via M912 > CONSOLE ROM. Got it; that would mean you're wanting the standard console. > I believe you're saying to connect A7/A3 and V4/V5 Right, insert jumpers A7 and A3, and also V5 and V4. > I still don't understand the pattern. They specify the device address and vector in binary. A7 is the 7th bit of the address, i.e. the 0200 bit. And since the DL11 is 'address jumper in for 0', that bit in the device's address is going to be _0_ when the jumper is in. That would turn 777770 (remember, the device is a block of 8 bytes, from xxxxx0 to xxxxx7, so you can't set the low 3 bits in the base address, they must be 0) into 777570. Similarly, A3 is 010, and turns 777770 to 777760. Put them together, you get 777560. V5 = 040, V4 = 020, so they become a vector of 060. > What would A4, A5, A6 and V7, V6, V3 represent A4 = 020, A5 = 040, A6 = 0100. V7 = 0200, V6 = 100, V3 = 010. > Is there a table with the jumpers and values somewhere? No, but I'll whip one up and stick it on the Computer History wiki. > Specifically something that lists all jumper combos and their > corresponding addresses? Well, _all_ the combinations would be 2^8 combinations (there are 8 address jumpers), which is pretty sizeable, and I don't feel like listing them all, but I can list a couple of the most common ones (e.g. console, second line, etc). Noel From other at oryx.us Wed Jun 15 14:29:28 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:29:28 -0500 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5761AC98.4060403@oryx.us> On 06/15/16 10:08 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 14 June 2016 at 18:31, Swift Griggs wrote: > In Ireland, "gear" means hard drugs, so maybe it's safer! > >>> Tempted to try Shoebill... [...] but emulators aren't the same. >> >> I like emulators for "helping" with real hardware. Ie.. making disks or >> disk images, transferring files, etc.. However, I'm with you, emulators >> aren't as fun. They are awesome tools, and they are *some* fun, just not >> as much as the real thing for me. > I'm not arguing your stance. Real hardware is the best. That said, after you have ran out of room due to too many other systems, I would rather have the opportunity to experience A/UX, or Rhapsody or even AIX 1.3x via virtualization or emulation, than to have totally missed the experience. > >>> It's a nice OS, I like and appreciate the NeXTstep heritage, but it's >>> not a _proper_ Mac. At this point, ver 10.11 and/or 10.12 beta, do you really see much, if any of that NeXT heritage? It was very obvious in earlier versions of OS X with netinfo and other goodies, then thing slowly began to slip away after 10.4. I see it as an OS with a Mach/XNU kernel, BSD userland and Apple's GUI slapped on top. Used to be called Aqua, not sure what the current term is. >> >> I can't really back up that position, but I totally agree. Not that I have >> anything "against" OSX. It at least doesn't have an identity-complex that >> Linux does. identity-complex is an interesting term for linux. As I watched linux move up and grow, and these comments are reflective of my observations from probably 10+ years back, my primary though is that they aren't doing anything new, they aren't bringing anything new to the table. They are just re-inventing the wheel (standard Unix software) under the GNU umbrella. > >> Linux+systemd desperately wants to be Windows nowadays > Its obvious that the systemd thing is a very controversial one, but I see the move as just one of the "trying to keep up with the other players in the field, i.e. launchd in OS X or svc services in Solaris/Solaris distro's. I find it funny people are fighting for the Sys V rc scripts. I remember how much they were hated when Sun rolled out Solaris 2.x and everyone wanted the BSD rc/rc.local/rc.xxxxx scripts back, because the Sys V system was too complicated. > >> but adherents still get offended when UNIX purists frown at their >> "unification" efforts (ala systemd and others) which de-emphasize KISS, >> small-is-beautiful, make everything a filter, etc... With the exception of stuff like systemd, many times the old utilities are still there, or are easily acquired. Its just that many, especially new system admins are only aware of new ways, and either don't know, don't have anyone to show them or just don't care about the options available to them. > > Kinda. But only kinda. The original goals of simplicity, consistency > etc. were lost -- no, thrown away -- *decades* ago. Unix is almost the > definitions of big, complex, arcane, and scary these days. Especially for a system admin, at any level, getting started up is a scary proposition with a steep learning curve. I'm certain that many here have frequently seen this tagline in the past. "unix is user friendly, its just picky on who its friends are" OTOH, it finally took Apple to come along with their GUI, which resulted in this popular tag line. "It was easier to make Unix user friendly, then it was to fix ms windows" > > >> Linux wants to cop >> that cool, without any binding respect towards the UNIX philosophy. > > No, I disagree. It's moving on. It's abandoning some of the legacy > stuff, but there are loads of other OSes that are keeping it. One of the things that keeps me a big fan of Solaris and different Solaris distro's, is that from a command line, depending how you set up your path, you have Sys V commands, BSD commands, linux/GNU commands, POSIX commands, etc. From the command line, you can pretty much set the OS up to behave however you choose, based on your shell and PATH env variables. If you are running strictly on linux, for the most part, GNU userland is pretty much all you got. I know the fine people at SCO open sourced the vi license, and there are some other things also out there where you can grab source code and compile Sys V binaries for linux. > >> and BSD is better on servers. > > *Ridiculously* contentious. I'm seeing and hearing of little _real_ > adoption. Some posturing, yes, but Linux's breadth of driver support, > apps, functionality, automation, pretty much everything, means it's > the dominant server platform of the WWW. This is always a difficult topic to discuss and keep a level head. The best OS for your server is the one that is stable, does a great job of running your mission critical applications and that there are people on staff trained to support it. A lack of any of those 3 items can be disastrous. > >> That's one thing I liked about IRIX. It's still a true UNIX variant, not >> "based on UNIX". The GUI is old-looking and primitive by today's >> standards, but still I think they struck a nice balance or at least one >> that appeals to me, personally. > > It's dead, though, isn't it? I did a few years of system admin work supporting IRIX. Initially, these boxes were in house because of graphics apps that ran on them and also oil & gas apps that ran on them. In 2010, I transitioned jobs to a LARGE telco, and I worked as a system admin on the email team. Millions of email customers. At the time, they loved, but were transitioning off of IRIX systems, as the SGI that we knew and sometimes loved, was for all practical purposes gone. From there, they moved to linux based x86 systems which didn't scale well, then finally to Solaris on SPARC. IRIX, in and of itself, was a good, but pretty generic Sys V Unix. It had great hardware and also a lot of great apps written for it, in its day. One of the other great things about it was the XFS file system. I guest I just never thought that much about it, at least at the time, but XFS was ported to linux. If you are on, or care to head over to the Dovecot (IMAP server mailing list), there are many great discussions and debates on the benefits of XFS on linux for high traffic Dovecot IMAP servers. That said, responding to your GUI comment, the GUI isn't the operating system. If you have the hardware and the 'hankering, you can download, compile and run CDE, OpenLook, Gnome, XCFE or any X11 window manager you care to take the time to run. >> >> I too used Linux from 1993 to about 1997. Then, the more I learned about >> BSD, the more I liked it. Hordes were flooding in to use Linux by then, so >> I bailed out. I haven't really run Linux as a workstation since then. I'm >> a current RHCE and I still interact with Linux a ton at my job, but there >> is little joy in it. I find myself pursing my lips and shaking my head a >> lot while fixing systemd problems or working on some dirty PoS of a JBOSS >> server. It was a nice well when it was first dug, but now it's fouled by >> too many people and too much toxic admixture. I'm a big *BSD fan myself. There is a lot of great work that get accomplished under the *BSD umbrella, that never seems to get proper attention. From ethan at 757.org Wed Jun 15 14:42:29 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On older Apple 68k machines, having an Apple-branded CDROM means you can > be assured it'll boot (though it's rumored that many generic SCSI CDROMs > work for booting) and also that it'll "just work" on most of the OSs. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with it, but over on the early SGI and Sun and NeXT stuff you had to change the block size on the CD-ROM to get them to work. The early Toshiba drives had solder pads that could be split open or re-closed to change block sizes and such to get them to work on all of the different hardware types. -- Ethan O'Toole From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 14:48:04 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:48:04 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: <20160615191649.81FE418C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160615191649.81FE418C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > >> For 777560/60 (standard for the console), you want A7/A3 and V4/V5 > >> 'in'. > > > I intend to use a serial terminal to access the console via M912 > > CONSOLE ROM. > > Got it; that would mean you're wanting the standard console. > > > I believe you're saying to connect A7/A3 and V4/V5 > > Right, insert jumpers A7 and A3, and also V5 and V4. > Thanks, done. Just about to try it out. > > > > I still don't understand the pattern. > > They specify the device address and vector in binary. > > A7 is the 7th bit of the address, i.e. the 0200 bit. And since the DL11 is > 'address jumper in for 0', that bit in the device's address is going to be > _0_ when the jumper is in. That would turn 777770 (remember, the device is > a > block of 8 bytes, from xxxxx0 to xxxxx7, so you can't set the low 3 bits in > the base address, they must be 0) into 777570. Similarly, A3 is 010, and > turns 777770 to 777760. Put them together, you get 777560. > > V5 = 040, V4 = 020, so they become a vector of 060. > > > What would A4, A5, A6 and V7, V6, V3 represent > > A4 = 020, A5 = 040, A6 = 0100. V7 = 0200, V6 = 100, V3 = 010. > > > OK, this makes sense, thanks. > > Is there a table with the jumpers and values somewhere? > > No, but I'll whip one up and stick it on the Computer History wiki. > > Many would appreciate this I bet. > > Specifically something that lists all jumper combos and their > > corresponding addresses? > > Well, _all_ the combinations would be 2^8 combinations (there are 8 address > jumpers), which is pretty sizeable, and I don't feel like listing them all, > but I can list a couple of the most common ones (e.g. console, second line, > etc). > > Maybe just keep it to the useful combos :-) Thanks again. b From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 15 12:12:55 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:12:55 +0200 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: william degnan Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 5:35 PM To: cctech Subject: DL11 M7800 OK. I must be missing something here Does anyone have a M7800 (DL11) set for 9600 b N71 or N81 jumper'd with the default address for use as a serial terminal interface? I understand the other jumpers on the card, but the address and vector jumpers confuse me. I can't seem to find a table or a "here is the default for console" or I don't get it. I have the manual, I want I believe 777560, but I cannot find "table 5-2" referred to in my copy of the manual. Can someone give me a couple of examples "if you have Ax Ay Az connected then that represents address ------- . I am looking at the manual and web sites on the subject and I think for use as a simple serial terminal interface I need to jumper "in" *A9, A7, A5, A4, A3* ... correct? Vector jumpers *V6, V7 "*in" . Just curious if anyone can help me specifically not indirectly what I need, super thanks in advance. Thanks Bill --------- Doing this from memory ... I actually configured an M7800 for console a week ago! But I left my notes in the "museum", 9 km away. I could get it on Saturday ... Anyway, I did it using the doc from bitsavers, so it is not too hard: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-DL11-TM-003_DL11_Asynchronous_Line_Interface_Manual_Sep75.pdf The gotcha: for address jumpers a jumper installed makes it a "0", whereas a jumper installed for the vector makes it a "1". I found it pretty confusing, seeing how many scribbled remarks I made on paper :-/ Console address is 777560. The last "0" is A0-A1-A2, and these do not have jumpers. So A5-A4-A3 sets the "6", A8-A7-A6 sets the "5", and A10-A9 sets the low two bits of the "7". (there is no A11). Console vector is 060. Same story. V2-V1-V0 is not available, so you only have to set the "6" (V5-V4 jumpered). To get 9600 Bd, check the crystal. It has to be the frequency listed in the 4th column in the documentation, else 9600 is not selectable. Note that there are two tiny rotary switches on the board. One to set the transmit baudrate, the other the receive baudrate. Testing is easy too. Just LOAD ADDR 777564, then EXAM. If all is correct you will see 0200 (transmit buffer emtpy flag set). Press EXAM again. The "address" is now set to 777566 (transmit buffer). Toggle 073, then DEP. If all is right, you will get a "3" in the terminal. - Henk From azd30 at telus.net Wed Jun 15 13:06:43 2016 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:06:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: References: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> <1D6AE4E5-15A6-45EE-A08B-5B2C679A8110@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <1081861774.18248512.1466014003444.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Thanks for the patches / images Seth... I can verify that SunOS 4.1.4 image from winworld, works - I have it installed on my SparcStation20. The only thing that failed to extract/install properly was OpenWindows. Now, there were two images on the site, and I haven't tried the second image. cheers -- alex From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 13:40:28 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:40:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: SunOS 4 In-Reply-To: <1081861774.18248512.1466014003444.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> References: <20160609025140.GA12530@loomcom.com> <51282CAF-971E-4834-B67B-85B16878A10B@me.com> <1D6AE4E5-15A6-45EE-A08B-5B2C679A8110@eschatologist.net> <1081861774.18248512.1466014003444.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, azd30 wrote: > Thanks for the patches / images Seth... I can verify that SunOS 4.1.4 > image from winworld, works - I have it installed on my SparcStation20. > The only thing that failed to extract/install properly was OpenWindows. > Now, there were two images on the site, and I haven't tried the second > image. Thanks for reporting back! Now we know. -Swift From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 15:32:31 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:32:31 -0700 Subject: Cross post - Help repairing badly dented / warped sheet metal casing (Seattle) Message-ID: I recently received something very special to me, a Symbolics XL1200 LISP machine, with framethrower and the works. Despite being shipped in the original SMBX designed carton, UPS dealt a great deal of damage to the system. It looks like it was hit by a truck. This, predictably, makes me very sad. Is there anyone, preferably local, with the skill and tools to make this thing look a little better who can lend a hand? How do I get started undoing the dents and extremely bent base? thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 15:40:36 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:40:36 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <5761AC98.4060403@oryx.us> References: <5761AC98.4060403@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > I'm not arguing your stance. Real hardware is the best. That said, > after you have ran out of room due to too many other systems, I would > rather have the opportunity to experience A/UX, or Rhapsody or even AIX > 1.3x via virtualization or emulation, than to have totally missed the > experience. I completely agree with you. I have had a Shoebill setup for a while, now. It just kinda whet my whistle, so to speak. > At this point, ver 10.11 and/or 10.12 beta, do you really see much, if > any of that NeXT heritage? I do. Two things are strong reminders that have stuck with OSX. The first is Objective-C and the other is the zillion library calls that *still* start with "ns" (next step). However, that's a sign of heritage, not a tribute to [NeXT|Open]STEP or a return to it's UI. > It was very obvious in earlier versions of OS X with netinfo and other > goodies, then thing slowly began to slip away after 10.4. TBH, I haven't messed with it much since about 10.6. Now that they've embraced this "app store" concept, I'm _done_ with them. I don't believe that's going to lead to anything that I'm going to like. > I see it as an OS with a Mach/XNU kernel, BSD userland and Apple's GUI > slapped on top. Used to be called Aqua, not sure what the current term > is. Great concise description, actually. > identity-complex is an interesting term for linux. As I watched linux > move up and grow, and these comments are reflective of my observations > from probably 10+ years back, my primary though is that they aren't > doing anything new, they aren't bringing anything new to the table. Hmm, I dunno about that. There are lots of new things besides just drivers and what-not. New network protocols, better fine-grained locking, storage features galore like LVM2 caching and asynchronous DRBD solve some long-itching business problems. It's come a long way. I just don't like where it's *going*. > They are just re-inventing the wheel (standard Unix software) under the > GNU umbrella. Well, the GNU guys are at least. Talk to Linus and he seems to bridle at the assertion that the GNU guys have written a larger volume of high quality code than him and his LKM cohorts. I've seen him speak and scoff at the "GNU/Linux" moniker. > Its obvious that the systemd thing is a very controversial one, but I > see the move as just one of the "trying to keep up with the other > players in the field, i.e. launchd in OS X or svc services in > Solaris/Solaris distro's. AIX has SRC, Solaris has SMF, OSX has launchd, so I guess they wanted to jump on the bandwagon. Only those megacorp OSs had nobody to ask or be beholden to when they decided to invent a new init system. Linux's leadership is just as, if not more independent, but also I'd argue they had a bit more responsibility to the "community" than what they showed. Linux was built by volunteers. They didn't do much asking before they went down a road a LOT of those same volunteers hated (and I'm talking programmers, not some whiny user). > I find it funny people are fighting for the Sys V rc scripts. I > remember how much they were hated when Sun rolled out Solaris 2.x and > everyone wanted the BSD rc/rc.local/rc.xxxxx scripts back, because the > Sys V system was too complicated. I'm still irritated by that, honestly. It never "worked out" any better than us "greybeards" though it would. However, it was only a minor "let's overcompliate this a bit" compared to the complete head-transplant done by systemd. However, Solaris has SMF which actually does use binary opaque data (SQLlite database files) in lieu of standard text files. That was unforgivable blasphemy in my eyes. However, since they waited until Solaris 10 to really go ape with it, I don't care. ZFS got ported elsewhere and that was the main attractive feature in SunOS 5.10, IMHO. My two least favorite Solaris "features" are SMF and SDS/SVM. > With the exception of stuff like systemd, many times the old utilities > are still there, or are easily acquired. True. However, systemd replaces an awful lot of the "legacy" systems. I'd refer you to the sock puppet. http://giphy.com/gifs/hungry-systemd-5xtDarAgrjoOrBxSVYk > Its just that many, especially new system admins are only aware of new > ways, and either don't know, don't have anyone to show them or just > don't care about the options available to them. Oh, I'm sure that will become more and more of an issue as systemd becomes "the way we've always done it." to younger Linux admins and users. > Especially for a system admin, at any level, getting started up is a > scary proposition with a steep learning curve. I'm certain that many > here have frequently seen this tagline in the past. Maybe it's my bias, but I think UNIX is dead-easy to learn, but it does take *some* effort in the learning. I teach various UNIX classes on a regular basis (commercially not at a school). I'd bring up another old addage (Harley Hahn, I think said it): "Unix is easy to use but harder to learn. Windows is hard to use but easy to learn." The truth of that slowly sinks in the more you think about it. People can usually "click around" until they get whatever they need done on Windows. However, doing the same thing in Unix can often be one quick command that you can "just type". However, "just" doing it does require a bit of learning. Fast food is quick and easy to get, but not that good for you. Cooking your own meal is a lot harder and requires patience and learning, but will result in better health, more choice, and greater control (unless you cook like me in which case a better life insurance policy is in order). > One of the things that keeps me a big fan of Solaris and different > Solaris distro's, is that from a command line, depending how you set up > your path, you have Sys V commands, BSD commands, linux/GNU commands, > POSIX commands, etc. That's a good point. You've got your BSD stuff in /usr/ucb, your GNU stuff on the hook from SunFreeware (well, mirrors nowadays, Sunfreeware went commercial) and you've got POSIX & SysV stuff right there also. I didn't mean to be *that* hard on Sun & Solaris. You'll have to forgive me. I'm still smarting from SunOS -> Solaris. I guess that counts as holding a grudge. :-) > From the command line, you can pretty much set the OS up to behave > however you choose, based on your shell and PATH env variables. Solaris is very flexible. It's also hopeful to me that there are still open-source projects predicating what are essentially new operating systems using the OpenSolaris codebase. > If you are running strictly on linux, for the most part, GNU userland is > pretty much all you got. However most of the critical stuff actually accepts both types of syntax or there are two subsystems available. I'm thinking of things like 'df' or 'ps'. You can do 'ps aux' (BSD style) or 'ps -ef' (SysV style) with GNU 'ps', for example. > I know the fine people at SCO open sourced the vi license, and there are > some other things also out there where you can grab source code and > compile Sys V binaries for linux. Yep. Thank goodness SCO did some good before Zombie-SCO came in and and and... ugh. I can't even talk about it. > This is always a difficult topic to discuss and keep a level head. The > best OS for your server is the one that is stable, does a great job of > running your mission critical applications and that there are people on > staff trained to support it. A lack of any of those 3 items can be > disastrous. Very well said. > At the time, they loved, but were transitioning off of IRIX systems, as > the SGI that we knew and sometimes loved, was for all practical purposes > gone. Post-Rick Belluzo SGI was a train wreck. It was so so sad. He was a M$ executive and it *showed*. The guy was a complete idiot who made a dog's dinner out of everything he touched. He was a useless failure even for a business weasel. > From there, they moved to linux based x86 systems which didn't scale > well, then finally to Solaris on SPARC. You weren't the only ones. > IRIX, in and of itself, was a good, but pretty generic Sys V Unix. It > had great hardware and also a lot of great apps written for it, in its > day. It has/had a lot of commercial apps that you won't find on any other UNIX variant. Many of them went to Windows after SGI tanked. Some went to Linux. > One of the other great things about it was the XFS file system. I guest > I just never thought that much about it, at least at the time, but XFS > was ported to linux. It rocks very hard. I think there were a lot of folks in the FreeBSD camp who really wanted to adopt it directly, but then the GPL got in the way. XFS is truly great, though. I did some file system testing for a private lab about 5 years ago. XFS was head and shoulders better than any other exant Linux file systems in my tests. It didn't have quite the performance of ext4 in some performance tests (it's slower on most metadata operations). However, it was still plenty fast for things that matter to database applications and that's the bulk of what I end up seeing in server farms. Ext4 was categorically terrible in some of my reliability tests. In one power-pull test I remember it ate the entire file system and I had like 300,000 files in lost+found with inode numbers. "See, I recovered for you." Thaaaaankss ext4, I can see a lot changed from ext2... not. > That said, responding to your GUI comment, the GUI isn't the operating > system. Not in UNIX at least, but it's definitely part of MacOS which is what I was thinking about at the time. > If you have the hardware and the 'hankering, you can download, compile > and run CDE, OpenLook, Gnome, XCFE or any X11 window manager you care to > take the time to run. ... and all of those are okay, but don't really compare to Aqua/OSX. The level of polish and integration just isn't there. Plus, you have all kinds of hard-to-understand turf wars when it comes to GNOME and a much lesser extent on KDE. I'm a fluxbox user most of the time, because most desktop environments I find to be lame and in-the-way. > I'm a big *BSD fan myself. There is a lot of great work that get > accomplished under the *BSD umbrella, that never seems to get proper > attention. I think most of the BSD folks are okay with that. We work in the shadows for the good of mankind (or at least the men who man-up to BSD). :-) -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 15:45:15 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:45:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > I'm not sure if it has anything to do with it, but over on the early SGI > and Sun and NeXT stuff you had to change the block size on the CD-ROM to > get them to work. Yeah, I think you mean the 2048 vs 512 byte block size. SGI's use a 512 byte size, IIRC. Folks were just talking about that a few weeks back, in fact. > The early Toshiba drives had solder pads that could be split open or > re-closed to change block sizes and such to get them to work on all of > the different hardware types. Most SCSI-based Yamaha and Pioneer drives have a jumper you can set for it. However, I tried this with my Pioneer SCSI CDROM and it still didn't work. I guess if nobody knows I can figure out how to run a debugger/syscall-profiler of some kind on MacOS 8.1 and fire up Disk Setup and see what it's actually looking for. My guess is it's just checking to make sure the SCSI vendor ID is "Apple" and then happily goes on with it's job. However, I just don't know for sure yet. I also don't know if altering a ROM image like that would have disastrous effects if, for example, the ROM image is appended with a CRC32 checksum that will fail once I flash it with a hacked image. I also am not sure if I can find the right spot in the firmware image to do the byte-patch. Lots of unknowns, so that's why I'm seeking the advice. -Swift From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 15 15:47:39 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:47:39 -0700 Subject: Cross post - Help repairing badly dented / warped sheet metal casing (Seattle) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5761BEEB.7050002@sydex.com> On 06/15/2016 01:32 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I recently received something very special to me, a Symbolics XL1200 > LISP machine, with framethrower and the works. > > Despite being shipped in the original SMBX designed carton, UPS dealt > a great deal of damage to the system. It looks like it was hit by a > truck. > > This, predictably, makes me very sad. > > Is there anyone, preferably local, with the skill and tools to make > this thing look a little better who can lend a hand? > > How do I get started undoing the dents and extremely bent base? Find an auto restorer with an English wheel and a set of planishing tools and dollies. I use mine routinely on dented and wrinkled equipment. Other than marring the paint job, a decent repairman should be able to bring the shape to like new. However, this is not a job for a neophyte. It takes some experience to get things right. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 15 15:48:28 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:48:28 -0500 Subject: Cross post - Help repairing badly dented / warped sheet metal casing (Seattle) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006001d1c747$458514d0$d08f3e70$@classiccmp.org> Ian wrote.... ===== Is there anyone, preferably local, with the skill and tools to make this thing look a little better who can lend a hand? How do I get started undoing the dents and extremely bent base? ===== Bummer Ian.... nice machine. I had posted a while back about how I straightened the chassis of an HP7970E tape drive that was mashed in. It involved some angle iron and long bolts. A link describing what I did is here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-January/002838.html But I don't think the picture is available any longer. If the device in question doesn't have vents as mine did to run the bolts through... drilling a hole or two and then patching may be better solution than leaving bent... J From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 15:55:31 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:55:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Cross post - Help repairing badly dented / warped sheet metal casing (Seattle) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > Despite being shipped in the original SMBX designed carton, UPS dealt a > great deal of damage to the system. It looks like it was hit by a truck. Dangit! I knew I shoulda been going faster when I hit that UPS truck. *ducks* !!!JOKING!!! :-) > Is there anyone, preferably local, with the skill and tools to make this > thing look a little better who can lend a hand? Auto body shops with open minded folks can help. They will have a zillion weird shaped hammers to work out the major dents, anvils and shaping tools to bend and smooth it, and power hammers, metal shears, bending tools, bending machines, etc.. Sometimes you'll find that skillset in weird places. I knew a lamp repair guy who had a lot of metalworking skill, too. Even if it's torn, they can weld the tear up and then grind it back down smooth. > How do I get started undoing the dents and extremely bent base? I'd recommend you get a set of body hammers and a dolly benders. They are cheap these days. That'll get you 80% there if you don't want everything liquid smooth. Along with a zillion other things I don't do very well, I've been interested in auto body work and done a tad bit myself in the past. What I'd be tempted to do is go to a locally owned body shop and ask them if they'd be willing to fix it cheaply as overflow work. Ie.. you don't need a tight timeline. Remember you can get two of these things: fast, cheap, and good. If you are willing to compromise on fast, some shops will help you just because it sounds different and fun. Others will act like you are insane and tell you to shove off. However, they are the ones who you really would want help from. -Swift From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jun 15 16:13:47 2016 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:13:47 -0400 Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM =?UTF-8?Q?=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31c209e0f0f0892ac5528de365b2ff85@localhost> Didn't hacked or 3rd party cd-rom drivers exist. That won't handle the boot problem, but the boot checks might not be as thorough as Disk Setup ??? Plextor CD-ROM SCSI drives used to have a 512 byte block jumper as well. I don't know about the DVD drives. On 2016-06-15 16:45, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> I'm not sure if it has anything to do with it, but over on the early >> SGI >> and Sun and NeXT stuff you had to change the block size on the >> CD-ROM to >> get them to work. > > Yeah, I think you mean the 2048 vs 512 byte block size. SGI's use a > 512 > byte size, IIRC. Folks were just talking about that a few weeks back, > in > fact. > >> The early Toshiba drives had solder pads that could be split open or >> re-closed to change block sizes and such to get them to work on all >> of >> the different hardware types. > > Most SCSI-based Yamaha and Pioneer drives have a jumper you can set > for > it. However, I tried this with my Pioneer SCSI CDROM and it still > didn't > work. I guess if nobody knows I can figure out how to run a > debugger/syscall-profiler of some kind on MacOS 8.1 and fire up Disk > Setup > and see what it's actually looking for. My guess is it's just > checking to > make sure the SCSI vendor ID is "Apple" and then happily goes on with > it's > job. However, I just don't know for sure yet. > > I also don't know if altering a ROM image like that would have > disastrous > effects if, for example, the ROM image is appended with a CRC32 > checksum > that will fail once I flash it with a hacked image. I also am not > sure if > I can find the right spot in the firmware image to do the byte-patch. > Lots > of unknowns, so that's why I'm seeking the advice. > > -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 16:24:52 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:24:52 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM ? In-Reply-To: <31c209e0f0f0892ac5528de365b2ff85@localhost> References: <31c209e0f0f0892ac5528de365b2ff85@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, rescue wrote: > Didn't hacked or 3rd party cd-rom drivers exist? I have some vague memory, but I was thinking that could just be wishful / convenient memory on my part. > That won't handle the boot problem, but the boot checks might not be as > thorough as Disk Setup ??? Well, my 660AV will boot from a Yamaha drive I have. However, MacOS refuses to show the drive after it's installed. So, I'm thinking that a hack such as the one we are discussing might be a full fledged solution. > Plextor CD-ROM SCSI drives used to have a 512 byte block jumper as well. > I don't know about the DVD drives. Plextor makes some great gear. However, I've also had good luck with Yamaha. I have had trouble with Pioneer, but they make the only slot-CDROM (and DVD) drives I know of. Their metal USB drives are also nicely built, pretty, and have a cool design. However, they've been less robust than some others I own (I have an LG drive with much fewer read errors and it's actually slot-driven, too). -Swift From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jun 15 16:56:37 2016 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:56:37 -0400 Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM =?UTF-8?Q?=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <31c209e0f0f0892ac5528de365b2ff85@localhost> Message-ID: <2afcf949dbcfba6674c1fe9a9bca88ee@localhost> Don't have time to fully check it out, but check out: http://chrislawson.net/writing/macdaniel/2k1130cl.shtml On 2016-06-15 17:24, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, rescue wrote: >> Didn't hacked or 3rd party cd-rom drivers exist? > > I have some vague memory, but I was thinking that could just be > wishful / > convenient memory on my part. > >> That won't handle the boot problem, but the boot checks might not be >> as >> thorough as Disk Setup ??? > > Well, my 660AV will boot from a Yamaha drive I have. However, MacOS > refuses to show the drive after it's installed. So, I'm thinking that > a > hack such as the one we are discussing might be a full fledged > solution. > >> Plextor CD-ROM SCSI drives used to have a 512 byte block jumper as >> well. >> I don't know about the DVD drives. > > Plextor makes some great gear. However, I've also had good luck with > Yamaha. I have had trouble with Pioneer, but they make the only > slot-CDROM > (and DVD) drives I know of. Their metal USB drives are also nicely > built, > pretty, and have a cool design. However, they've been less robust > than > some others I own (I have an LG drive with much fewer read errors and > it's > actually slot-driven, too). > > -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 17:02:30 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:02:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM ? In-Reply-To: <2afcf949dbcfba6674c1fe9a9bca88ee@localhost> References: <31c209e0f0f0892ac5528de365b2ff85@localhost> <2afcf949dbcfba6674c1fe9a9bca88ee@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, rescue wrote: > Don't have time to fully check it out, but check out: > http://chrislawson.net/writing/macdaniel/2k1130cl.shtml Thanks. That doc mirrors my current understanding, but it doesn't address the ROM hack I'm contemplating. -Swift From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jun 15 18:47:42 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <5761AC98.4060403@oryx.us> References: <5761AC98.4060403@oryx.us> Message-ID: <201606152347.TAA14469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Its obvious that the systemd thing is a very controversial one, but I > see the move as just one of the "trying to keep up with the other > players in the field, i.e. launchd in OS X or svc services in > Solaris/Solaris distro's. Just because other people make a mistake is no excuse for another person making it. (The argument, of course, is over whether systemd _is_ a mistake. My current opinion is that it is; while this is based on second-hand information only, unless the second-hand information turns out to be outright lies I am unlikely to change my mind.) As for everyone who disliked systemd already having bailed, see Devuan. > I find it funny people are fighting for the Sys V rc scripts. I > remember how much they were hated when Sun rolled out Solaris 2.x and > everyone wanted the BSD rc/rc.local/rc.xxxxx scripts back, because > the Sys V system was too complicated. Just because X is better than Y doesn't mean that Z isn't worse yet. (Here, X is BSD /etc/rc, Y is SysV-style rc scripts, and Z is systemd. All in suitable people's opinions, of course.) >>> and BSD is better on servers. >> *Ridiculously* contentious. [...] Linux [is] the dominant server >> platform of the WWW. "servers" != "the WWW". Not by a long shot. >>> That's one thing I liked about IRIX. It's still a true UNIX >>> variant, not "based on UNIX". So are Linux and BSD, right up until you start caring about the _legal_ definition of UNIX, which is why they call themselves as "based on UNIX" or "UNIX-like" or the like. But (IMO, of course) the legal sense is the only one in which they aren't UNIX. > I'm a big *BSD fan myself. There is a lot of great work that get > accomplished under the *BSD umbrella, that never seems to get proper > attention. The BSDs just sit there and work, for the most part. The major thing I see them lacking is a PR department. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Jun 15 18:49:38 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:49:38 -0700 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <201606152347.TAA14469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5761AC98.4060403@oryx.us> <201606152347.TAA14469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > On Jun 15, 2016, at 4:47 PM, Mouse wrote: > > The BSDs just sit there and work, for the most part. The major thing I > see them lacking is a PR department. And thank $GOD for that. It was P.R. that created (and perpetuates) Linux. From Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com Wed Jun 15 20:04:42 2016 From: Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com (Smith, Wayne) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 01:04:42 +0000 Subject: VCFed auction updates References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:20:11 -0400 From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: > I think that VCFed (was MARCH) had that one > signed at the same workshop that mine was > signed at. A couple of others were signed > at the same time. Picture of Herb getting > his signed (right after mine) here: > > http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/sol_1.html Woz was at VCF 8.0 (2005) and I quickly bought a Macintosh Portable for $50 from one of the vendors just so I could have him sign something - got a picture of him doing so as well: http://tinyurl.com/jkxcv89 From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 21:49:20 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:49:20 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board Message-ID: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late ALU booster upgrade? Marc From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 15 22:00:46 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 22:00:46 -0500 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I replied a week ago :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late ALU booster upgrade? Marc From ethan at 757.org Wed Jun 15 22:23:30 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM ? In-Reply-To: References: <31c209e0f0f0892ac5528de365b2ff85@localhost> <2afcf949dbcfba6674c1fe9a9bca88ee@localhost> Message-ID: > Thanks. That doc mirrors my current understanding, but it doesn't address > the ROM hack I'm contemplating. > > -Swift Microcontroller board to rewrite the scsi cdb block with the vendor over to Apple! > -- Ethan O'Toole From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 16:29:07 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 17:29:07 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: william degnan Sent: Wednesday, > June 15, 2016 5:35 PM To: cctech Subject: DL11 M7800 > OK. I must be missing something here > > Does anyone have a M7800 (DL11) set for 9600 b N71 or N81 jumper'd with the > default address for use as a serial terminal interface? I understand the > other jumpers on the card, but the address and vector jumpers confuse me. > I can't seem to find a table or a "here is the default for console" or I > don't get it. I have the manual, I want I believe 777560, but I cannot find > "table 5-2" referred to in my copy of the manual. Can someone give me a > couple of examples "if you have Ax Ay Az connected then that represents > address ------- . > > I am looking at the manual and web sites on the subject and I think for use > as a simple serial terminal interface I need to jumper "in" *A9, A7, A5, > A4, A3* ... correct? Vector jumpers *V6, V7 "*in" . Just curious if > anyone can help me specifically not indirectly what I need, super thanks in > advance. > > Thanks > Bill > > --------- > Doing this from memory ... I actually configured an M7800 for console > a week ago! But I left my notes in the "museum", 9 km away. I could get > it on Saturday ... > Anyway, I did it using the doc from bitsavers, so it is not too hard: > > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-DL11-TM-003_DL11_Asynchronous_Line_Interface_Manual_Sep75.pdf > > The gotcha: for address jumpers a jumper installed makes it a "0", > whereas a jumper installed for the vector makes it a "1". I found it > pretty confusing, seeing how many scribbled remarks I made on paper :-/ > Console address is 777560. The last "0" is A0-A1-A2, and these do not > have jumpers. So A5-A4-A3 sets the "6", A8-A7-A6 sets the "5", and > A10-A9 sets the low two bits of the "7". (there is no A11). > Console vector is 060. Same story. V2-V1-V0 is not available, so you > only have to set the "6" (V5-V4 jumpered). > > To get 9600 Bd, check the crystal. It has to be the frequency listed > in the 4th column in the documentation, else 9600 is not selectable. > Note that there are two tiny rotary switches on the board. One to set > the transmit baudrate, the other the receive baudrate. > > Testing is easy too. Just LOAD ADDR 777564, then EXAM. If all is correct > you will see 0200 (transmit buffer emtpy flag set). Press EXAM again. > The "address" is now set to 777566 (transmit buffer). Toggle 073, then > DEP. If all is right, you will get a "3" in the terminal. > > - Henk > This further helps my understanding. Problem is, the card is bad. Knowing it's probably jumpered correctly (assuming I have everything right, which is a big assumption) I will check the 1488/89 drivers, etc. to see what's wrong with the card. I have a working M7856 serial card so I know the terminal is ok, CPU is not farting out, etc. I have a pdp 11/40 with 16K core and M9312 ROM/Terminator that I am working on. Making some progress lately. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jun 15 17:05:48 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:05:48 -0700 Subject: Possible to Re-flash a Yamaha SCSI CDROM to fake an Apple CDROM ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your going to need a CDROM that can be set for 512 byte sectors. We use to use Plextor drives and if money was a factor, Pioneer. In the early days Plextor drives were quite a bit more expensive the all the others, and where usually faster. BTW 512 bytes came from the sector size of a hard drive On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On older Apple 68k machines, having an Apple-branded CDROM means you can > be assured it'll boot (though it's rumored that many generic SCSI CDROMs > work for booting) and also that it'll "just work" on most of the OSs. > > I'm guessing it's a simple check to see if the vendor in the firmware is > "APPLE". Has anyone ever managed to hack the firmware of something like a > Yamaha, Pioneer, or Plextor drive so that it lies and says it's "APPLE" > thus being fully enabled by the OS & hardware ? Does anyone know anything > about flashing CDROM firmware and the dynamics of such things? I wonder if > it'd just be a matter of a simple hexedit/byte-patch on the firmware image > then load it up... Is this a bogus idea? > > The reason for this is that if it's possible, I could buy a Pioneer slot > loading SCSI CDROM drive, stuff it into my Quadra 660AV, and then hack it > to "just work" instead of needing drivers et al. The slot cover isn't big > enough for a normal tray-drive CDROM to work. Thus I can only use a CD300i > caddy-based drive (or theoretically - a slot drive). My 300i is a bit of > PoS and even after I cleaned it, the thing still has a lot of read > problems. > > -Swift > > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Jun 15 22:50:07 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:50:07 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Well there are 20 bits of ALU .... And this guy has one and some other boards http://nevadabarry.com/electron.html#HP%20Test%20Equipment NO Connection with the site/person/etc .. just passing it on On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I replied a > week ago :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board > > Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? > > https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA > > It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to the > firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 > bitslice > SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late ALU booster > upgrade? > > > > Marc > > > > > > From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 22:56:27 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 22:56:27 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest is Live! Message-ID: Hello vintage computing fans - we are finally ready to officially re-announce the 11th annual Vintage Computer Festival Midwest! Here are the essentials: What: A weekend of friends, fellowship and frivolity centered around the hobby of vintage computing. Buy, browse, show or sell or any combination thereof. When: September 10-11, 2016 Where: The Holiday Inn of Elk Grove Village, Illinois, minutes from O'Hare International Airport (with a free shuttle) How Much: Zero, 0, null, %0, nil, @0, aught, ought, naught, 0x00, nada, zip, or goose-egg. It's free, too. (BIG ASTERISK BELOW) Last year's move to our new, larger event hall was a resounding and popular success. This year, processes have been streamlined, layouts optimized, synergies leveraged and core competencies enhanced so that 2016 will see us there again with a little bit more space (all that we can get this time) and the same great food, hours and convenience that worked so well last time. Some OK T-Shirts, too, if I finish them on time. Reservations for tables and potential speaking slots will be taken via web form here: http://vcfmw.org/signup.html. We'll contact you soon to follow-up on space requirements or presentations. There is no need to register to attend the show. Table spots may fill up quickly - late registrants may end up with sub-optimal locations. Special convention rate hotel reservations for the Holiday Inn are now open. Follow the link on our site to the reservation page with pre-filled code. If you are making your reservation with your own discount code or without one, please still mention our show (code "VCF") as that is one way we track attendance figures (and more reservations = friendlier hotel.) Please visit our website and FAQ at http://vcfmw.org for all the latest relevant information and don't hesitate to contact me with questions not covered there. (BIG ASTERISK) VCFMW is a community-supported event and does not charge admission - therefore we depend on your donations to cover the costs of the facility rental and other necessaries. Please visit our web page to find two methods of donation (PayPal and GoFundMe) and give what you can. If you'd like to donate directly at the show or by some other method, please let me know privately. Thank you to all that helped make our show great last year and we hope to see you again in September! -j From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 00:02:13 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 22:02:13 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004301d1c78c$3f208620$bd619260$@gmail.com> Yes, yes, I remember! [furiously searches email archive] Jay said: "The large board on the left. I am fairly sure that I have one. I am trying to remember what it was. I know that it made the E series into specific test instrument. I do remember that you can remove it and it's a normal E. I'll go see if I can find any notes I made on it. I seem to recall it made the E cpu into a dedicated fourier analysis machine or something.." At the time I didn't even have the card info or number. But nothing came out of my google-ing. Is that the board you were thinking of? Did you ever find any more documentation on it? Do you know which software/hardware this works with? Anyone else knows? Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:01 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I replied a week ago :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late ALU booster upgrade? Marc From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 00:16:01 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 22:16:01 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> You beat me! You got one hit. How did you search for that? I come up dry... Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery HP 1000 board Well there are 20 bits of ALU .... And this guy has one and some other boards http://nevadabarry.com/electron.html#HP%20Test%20Equipment NO Connection with the site/person/etc .. just passing it on On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I > replied a week ago :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board > > Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? > > https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA > > It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to > the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 > bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late > ALU booster upgrade? > > > > Marc > > > > > > From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 00:44:17 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 01:44:17 -0400 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> See: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1977-10.pdf Figure 4 Shows some of those other parts as well in the block diagram. Uses a "HP 21MX K-Series Computer". Model 5420A Digital Signal Analyzer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:16 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board You beat me! You got one hit. How did you search for that? I come up dry... Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery HP 1000 board Well there are 20 bits of ALU .... And this guy has one and some other boards http://nevadabarry.com/electron.html#HP%20Test%20Equipment HP 5443 05443-60047 05443-60042 05443-60031 MIOB Interface 05443-60050 Booster Microcode 05443-60057 C (13803F?) 05443-60071 A (22803F) NO Connection with the site/person/etc .. just passing it on On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I > replied a week ago :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board > > Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? > > https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA > > It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to > the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 > bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late > ALU booster upgrade? > > > > Marc > > > > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 01:07:21 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:07:21 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004701d1c795$58f857e0$0ae907a0$@gmail.com> Ah, thanks, this is getting awfully close, and jives well with Jay's recollection. Low frequency spectrum analysis using FFT seems to be the application indeed. Mentions an "arithmetic booster board" bolted to the bottom of an HP 21MX K (whatever a K-model is, never heard of it, but seems to be made of an HP 2105 model, I'll look that up) to improve FFT performance. They call the combo a "5443A" processor. That's dangerously similar to my 54427 board numbering and "booster" naming and fits right in with the 74S181 bit slice 20-bit ALU. I haven't found the particular system that would use an E-series computer, but I'll keep looking in this direction. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:44 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board See: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1977-10.pdf Figure 4 Shows some of those other parts as well in the block diagram. Uses a "HP 21MX K-Series Computer". Model 5420A Digital Signal Analyzer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:16 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board You beat me! You got one hit. How did you search for that? I come up dry... Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery HP 1000 board Well there are 20 bits of ALU .... And this guy has one and some other boards http://nevadabarry.com/electron.html#HP%20Test%20Equipment HP 5443 05443-60047 05443-60042 05443-60031 MIOB Interface 05443-60050 Booster Microcode 05443-60057 C (13803F?) 05443-60071 A (22803F) NO Connection with the site/person/etc .. just passing it on On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I > replied a week ago :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board > > Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? > > https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA > > It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to > the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 > bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late > ALU booster upgrade? > > > > Marc > > > > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 01:53:55 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:53:55 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> Suspicion confirmed, inspecting other cards of the machine, the cage is full of many mystery interface cards 05451-20025. I'm not sure yet of what the many cards do, but The HP 5451 was a 1972 Fourrier Analysis system that was implemented with an even earlier, core memory version HP 2100 processor. I recommend the picture of the system below, that's one of the best pictures of an 2100 system I have ever seen ;-) http://spherik.tumblr.com/post/98803997123/hewlett-packard-hp-5451a-fourier-analyzer-1972 Wait. They even made an earlier 1970 model based on a HP 2116 (HP's first computer!) documented here, www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1970-06.pdf Also used for low frequency spectrum analysis, here for sound and vibration. I suspect my machine is a descendent of these early systems, haven't quite put my finger exactly on it, but getting really close. Marc -----Original Message----- From: CuriousMarc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 11:07 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'Marc Verdiell' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board Ah, thanks, this is getting awfully close, and jives well with Jay's recollection. Low frequency spectrum analysis using FFT seems to be the application indeed. Mentions an "arithmetic booster board" bolted to the bottom of an HP 21MX K (whatever a K-model is, never heard of it, but seems to be made of an HP 2105 model, I'll look that up) to improve FFT performance. They call the combo a "5443A" processor. That's dangerously similar to my 54427 board numbering and "booster" naming and fits right in with the 74S181 bit slice 20-bit ALU. I haven't found the particular system that would use an E-series computer, but I'll keep looking in this direction. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:44 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board See: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1977-10.pdf Figure 4 Shows some of those other parts as well in the block diagram. Uses a "HP 21MX K-Series Computer". Model 5420A Digital Signal Analyzer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:16 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board You beat me! You got one hit. How did you search for that? I come up dry... Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery HP 1000 board Well there are 20 bits of ALU .... And this guy has one and some other boards http://nevadabarry.com/electron.html#HP%20Test%20Equipment HP 5443 05443-60047 05443-60042 05443-60031 MIOB Interface 05443-60050 Booster Microcode 05443-60057 C (13803F?) 05443-60071 A (22803F) NO Connection with the site/person/etc .. just passing it on On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I > replied a week ago :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board > > Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? > > https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA > > It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to > the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 > bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late > ALU booster upgrade? > > > > Marc > > > > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 02:01:16 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:01:16 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> Well what the heck, found it, we have one right here in the CHM collection!!! It's part of an HP 5451C Fourier Analysis system, and there are quite a few other bits needed besides the HP-1000 and its many weird cards! I think I saw them from the guy that I bought the HP 1000 from. I might go back. http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102692715 A later revision of the 5451A system I had found below with the nice lady picture. Marc -----Original Message----- From: CuriousMarc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 11:54 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'Marc Verdiell' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board Suspicion confirmed, inspecting other cards of the machine, the cage is full of many mystery interface cards 05451-20025. I'm not sure yet of what the many cards do, but The HP 5451 was a 1972 Fourrier Analysis system that was implemented with an even earlier, core memory version HP 2100 processor. I recommend the picture of the system below, that's one of the best pictures of an 2100 system I have ever seen ;-) http://spherik.tumblr.com/post/98803997123/hewlett-packard-hp-5451a-fourier-analyzer-1972 Wait. They even made an earlier 1970 model based on a HP 2116 (HP's first computer!) documented here, www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1970-06.pdf Also used for low frequency spectrum analysis, here for sound and vibration. I suspect my machine is a descendent of these early systems, haven't quite put my finger exactly on it, but getting really close. Marc -----Original Message----- From: CuriousMarc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 11:07 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'Marc Verdiell' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board Ah, thanks, this is getting awfully close, and jives well with Jay's recollection. Low frequency spectrum analysis using FFT seems to be the application indeed. Mentions an "arithmetic booster board" bolted to the bottom of an HP 21MX K (whatever a K-model is, never heard of it, but seems to be made of an HP 2105 model, I'll look that up) to improve FFT performance. They call the combo a "5443A" processor. That's dangerously similar to my 54427 board numbering and "booster" naming and fits right in with the 74S181 bit slice 20-bit ALU. I haven't found the particular system that would use an E-series computer, but I'll keep looking in this direction. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:44 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board See: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1977-10.pdf Figure 4 Shows some of those other parts as well in the block diagram. Uses a "HP 21MX K-Series Computer". Model 5420A Digital Signal Analyzer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:16 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board You beat me! You got one hit. How did you search for that? I come up dry... Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery HP 1000 board Well there are 20 bits of ALU .... And this guy has one and some other boards http://nevadabarry.com/electron.html#HP%20Test%20Equipment HP 5443 05443-60047 05443-60042 05443-60031 MIOB Interface 05443-60050 Booster Microcode 05443-60057 C (13803F?) 05443-60071 A (22803F) NO Connection with the site/person/etc .. just passing it on On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I > replied a week ago :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board > > Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? > > https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA > > It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to > the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 > bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late > ALU booster upgrade? > > > > Marc > > > > > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 16 03:53:44 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:53:44 +0200 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001e01d1c7ac$9747ea30$c5d7be90$@xs4all.nl> > Well what the heck, found it, we have one right here in the CHM collection!!! It's > part of an HP 5451C Fourier Analysis system, and there are quite a few other bits > needed besides the HP-1000 and its many weird cards! I think I saw them from > the guy that I bought the HP 1000 from. I might go back. > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102692715 > A later revision of the 5451A system I had found below with the nice lady > picture. > Marc > > > http://nevadabarry.com/electron.html#HP%20Test%20Equipment > > HP 5443 > 05443-60047 > 05443-60042 > 05443-60031 MIOB Interface > 05443-60050 Booster Microcode > 05443-60057 C (13803F?) > 05443-60071 A (22803F) > > NO Connection with the site/person/etc .. just passing it on > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > > > I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I > > replied a week ago :) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > CuriousMarc > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board > > > > Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? > > > > https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA > > > > It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to > > the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 > > bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late > > ALU booster upgrade? The boards are also used in the HP 5420A/B Dynamic Signal Analysers and the HP 5423A Structural Dynamics Analyser. The boards belong to the 5443 control unit which is actually a M-series processor with some add-ons like the booster board and a custom front panel/keyboard. The analysers consists of three 19"boxes containing the 5441 Display unit, 5443 Control unit ant the 5441 AD-coverter and Digtal filter. The boxes are connected through the MIOB (Multiple Input Output Bus) a 16 bits bus used to communicate and control the various parts. FYI the HP 5420 and 5423 were used to test parts of the space shuttle program. Some other info of the units are on: http://www.oneillassociates.com.au/~5420/HP5420.shtml Some picture and a short video loading the operation software on: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/albums/72157651930423960 -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 16 03:59:19 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:59:19 +0200 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <001e01d1c7ac$9747ea30$c5d7be90$@xs4all.nl> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> <001e01d1c7ac$9747ea30$c5d7be90$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001f01d1c7ad$5ed63020$1c829060$@xs4all.nl> > > The boards are also used in the HP 5420A/B Dynamic Signal Analysers and the HP > 5423A Structural Dynamics Analyser. > The boards belong to the 5443 control unit which is actually a M-series > processor with some add-ons like the booster board and a custom front > panel/keyboard. > The analysers consists of three 19"boxes containing the 5441 Display unit, 5443 > Control unit ant the 5441 AD-coverter and Digtal filter. > The boxes are connected through the MIOB (Multiple Input Output Bus) a 16 > bits bus used to communicate and control the various parts. > FYI the HP 5420 and 5423 were used to test parts of the space shuttle program. > Some other info of the units are on: > http://www.oneillassociates.com.au/~5420/HP5420.shtml > Some picture and a short video loading the operation software on: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/albums/72157651930423960 > > -Rik What I forgot, if anyone has tapes or info of these systems I would be very interested. Tapes are dc100 type of tape cartridges, typically starting with HP 05423-##### or HP 05420-###### And have titles like HP 5420A/B, HP 5423, Control- Test- or HPIB-tape etc.. I've one working set of software and love to find more. -Rik From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Jun 16 06:25:00 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:25:00 +0200 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20160616112500.GA20799@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 09:17:01AM -0700, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a lot > of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any wear > on the legends. My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice, having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked. Apart from the obvious reason that I just can't be arsed, the main stumbling block on the repair is the recessed bolts holding it together and me not having a suitable thin-walled driver to turn them. It's probably a simple job once I'm actually in. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 16 06:45:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 M7800 Message-ID: <20160616114543.C49CC18C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan >>> Is there a table with the jumpers and values somewhere? >> No, but I'll whip one up and stick it on the Computer History wiki. > Many would appreciate this I bet. I'm sure I would have - I, like a lot of others, struggled with the address/vector jumpers (which are poorly covered in the DEC documentation). Anyway, try this on for size: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DL11_asynchronous_serial_line If there's anything else I could usefully add there, please let me know. I have provided jumper configs for the console, and the first serial line after that - are there any more that would be useful to list? Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 07:57:23 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:57:23 -0500 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <004701d1c795$58f857e0$0ae907a0$@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004701d1c795$58f857e0$0ae907a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01d1c7ce$a09a4430$e1cecc90$@classiccmp.org> Marc wrote... ----- 21MX K (whatever a K-model is, never heard of it, but seems to be made of an HP 2105 model, I'll look that up ----- I have not been HP-focused for a year or so, I've had my head in DG stuff instead and I am finding that I'm forgetting (and remembering wrong) many HP things lol But.... Foggy Memory - The main difference between the 2105 and 2112 (and separately the 2109 and 2113) was mechanical. I seem to recall that the elusive "K" series (which I have a sales brochure for somewhere, but I have never seen in the wild, nor do I know of anyone who has one) was a "pick and choose" at order time - "Roll Your Own 21MX". It was apparently some form of "modular" so you could get bits and pieces of the different models in one model (right down to the number of slots you wanted). J From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 08:06:45 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:06:45 -0500 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001d1c7cf$ef812130$ce836390$@classiccmp.org> Marc wrote... ----- It's part of an HP 5451C Fourier Analysis system ----- So my foggy memory of it being a card to make the system a fourier analysis instrument was "not too far off" *grin*. Now if I could just remember when wife asks me to bring home bread from the store.... Marc gave me new knowledge the other day, I'll share in case no one knew this....I sure didn't. >From my manuals and travels, I was under the impression that while the M series was 3 machines (2105, 2108, and 2112) and the E series was 2 machines (2109 and 2113).... that there was only one machine in the F series - the 2117F, and it had the FP box underneath. Marc showed me a machine that was badged "1000F", but had no FP box under it. I of course (incorrectly) told him - it ain't an F unless you go back and get the FP box that goes with. He found that in the rear above the I/O cage, there was a wide (width of the chassis) card cage of about 3 slots, that was apparently for an FP. My reply (wrong) was that it must be a custom job. Turns out - there was a model of F designated 2111F which has the FP boards inside the main chassis above the I/O cage, and the 2117F which has the boards in a separate box under the cpu. Either I never knew about this 2111F, or my brain blocked it out or forgot it. I'm going with the former ;) J From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jun 16 08:23:50 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:23:50 -0500 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <20160616112500.GA20799@mooli.org.uk> References: <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> <20160616112500.GA20799@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <005b01d1c7d2$5260a4e0$f721eea0$@com> A 7/32" or 5.5mm socket or nutdriver will do the job nicely. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Corlett Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 6:25 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 09:17:01AM -0700, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still > takes a lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a > board with any wear on the legends. My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice, having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked. Apart from the obvious reason that I just can't be arsed, the main stumbling block on the repair is the recessed bolts holding it together and me not having a suitable thin-walled driver to turn them. It's probably a simple job once I'm actually in. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 08:45:22 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:45:22 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: <20160616114543.C49CC18C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160616114543.C49CC18C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > >>> Is there a table with the jumpers and values somewhere? > > >> No, but I'll whip one up and stick it on the Computer History wiki. > > > Many would appreciate this I bet. > > I'm sure I would have - I, like a lot of others, struggled with the > address/vector jumpers (which are poorly covered in the DEC documentation). > > Anyway, try this on for size: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/DL11_asynchronous_serial_line > > If there's anything else I could usefully add there, please let me know. > I have provided jumper configs for the console, and the first serial line > after that - are there any more that would be useful to list? > > Noel > Thanks Noel. If I understand correctly, the first DL might be for example a TU58 or other serial device. The console = 0, the "first" is actually "1" (second) serial card. right? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 09:05:41 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:05:41 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <20160615152320.GA31351@mooli.org.uk> References: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> <20160615152320.GA31351@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 15 June 2016 at 17:23, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 04:51:43PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > [...] >> * Simplicity -- the Finder integration with the OS, the desktop database, >> etc. Move items around, aliases still point to them. Even to other drives, >> even to other machines on the same network! > > Not that I'm any fan of Windows, but don't NTFS junctions do this? They're a > kind of cross-volume hard link. Honestly, I'm not sure. But if they do, Explorer doesn't know about it, and Windows shortcuts don't do any of it. Even plain old symlinks are more capable than shortcuts; only Explorer really understands them and not always then. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 16 09:13:54 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 M7800 Message-ID: <20160616141354.49D3D18C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > If I understand correctly, the first DL might be for example a TU58 or > other serial device. Well, DL11's long predate TU58's, and the 'first' DL11 would almost certainly have been connected to a terminal, but yes, basically. > The console = 0, the "first" is actually "1" (second) serial card. > right? Right. I'll add a sentence or two the the article about how DL11's #1-#16 are to be found at 776500-676. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 09:19:11 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:19:11 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: <20160616141354.49D3D18C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160616141354.49D3D18C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > If I understand correctly, the first DL might be for example a TU58 > or > > other serial device. > > Well, DL11's long predate TU58's, and the 'first' DL11 would almost > certainly > have been connected to a terminal, but yes, basically. > > > The console = 0, the "first" is actually "1" (second) serial card. > > right? > > Right. I'll add a sentence or two the the article about how DL11's #1-#16 > are > to be found at 776500-676. > > Noel > I added a link to this page from my site. From all those in the future who will now configure their systems a little more quickly, thanks! -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From erik at baigar.de Thu Jun 16 03:23:05 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:23:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Who recognizes this (UK) architecture (from 1970-1985)? Message-ID: Hi There, I am working on restoration, documentation of a some vintage navigation systems from the late 1970ties, which have been designed in the UK. They contain an archaic bit-serial computer and I'd be interested if someone on this list recognizes the architecture and/or can confirm my assumptions: The bitserial computer consists of around 300 TTL chips (54xx); it has 8 bits instructions and operates on 16 bit memory. The 3 LOWER bits of the opcode define the instruction and the HIGHER bits the location (0-31, i.e. address) - most other architectures I know have the instruction coded in the MSBs! Here is a list of the basic instructions: 1 : Load Ac from memory 2 : Store Ac to memory 3 : Add to Ac 4 : Sub from Ac 5 : IO-Instructions (32 Channels, there are some special channels as 0 loads AC with "0" whereas channel 31 loads -1 into Ac). 6 : Shift instructions - depending on the address field, Ac is shifted arithmetically (preserving MSB, the sign) or cyclic. 7 : Bit test instructions - 0-15 test bits of the Ac register, 16-31 test external digital inputs and are used for communication with the hardware. And finally, put last for didactic reasons: 0 : Here we have a bunch of special instructions depending on the address field, like selection of memory page, conditional jump, loading of data from ROM into the Accumulator (Ac), multiply, divide, conditional JUMP,... What makes the architecture very unique to me is, that it has 32 bit capability, i.e. there is a "double length" flag and if this is set, most commands operate on 32 bit (1-6, MUL, DIV). Additionally there is a "logic flag" which causes e.g. the instuctions ADD and SUB to switch to change their operation from ADD/SUB to logic AND/NXOR. Apart from this, ROM and RAM are separated (the CPU cann not exe- cute code in RAM) and the RAM is segmented in 4 pages of 31 words. The machine does not have got a stack, there is no subroutine call and only just one flag used for conditional JUMPs. Via the test in- structions (e.g. test Accu bit 3, test Ac<0) this flag is modified and a following "Jump if Flag Set" acutally causes the conditional JUMP. As the navigation system is made by Ferranti I, already had a look at the varouos computers made by them (Mark1, Pegasus, Atlas, and Argus). I think given the timeline, and the word widths the Argus 600 or 700 architectures may be closely related, but the 600's command set is quite different... http://www.wylie.org.uk/technology/computer/Argus/PeteFarr.htm Can anyone out there confirm this? Is a instruction set listing of the Argus 700 available somewhere? A video on the system can be found fon YouTube although this is not focused on the digital computer it may be of interest as it gives a overview on the application, the projected map cockpit display (one of the devices controlled by the system) and it shows my homebrew logger developed durig analysis of the box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8 Interesting in this system is also the delicate mechanics and the mix of digital computing, analog computing (platform stabilization, compensation of cross talk errors and anisoelasticity, platform erection, first integration from acceleration to speed) and mechanical computing (the ingetration of turn rate happens me- chanically within the gyrsocopes).For this reasons, these systems are the most extraordinary masterpiece of engineering I know... Best regards, Erik, Germany, Munich... From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Thu Jun 16 03:53:51 2016 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:53:51 +0300 Subject: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: <006f01d1c6f9$cbf73ff0$63e5bfd0$@gmail.com> References: , <006f01d1c6f9$cbf73ff0$63e5bfd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I sent mail to Erik and guess what? The typewriter is still available! Thanks for the tip! :D - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:33:53 +0100 > > Some one had one in the Netherlands about 4 years ago... > > >Erik W. vier321 at hotmail.com via classiccmp.org > >26/06/2012 > >to cctalk > > > > > >Hi Folks, > > I have an original IBM model B computer controlled typewriter witha lot > of spares and maintenance manuals available for sale ortrade. This stuff is > > impossible to find. As used on the IBM 1620,DEC PDP-1 and many other > computers of the era. Useful if you'remaintaining one of those or want to > build a > > replica/simulator. > > Respond to me directly as I'm not a member of this list. > > Thanks, Erik > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johannes > > Thelen > > Sent: 15 June 2016 12:20 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 > > > > > > > > > > > > I got just another jewel to my collection, IBM 1620 Model I (G level). > Machine > > has all internals intact, but table top and the typewriter are missing > (probably > > doorway was too narrow back then, parts removed and forgotten somewhere > > on the journey... ) That table top can be made again, but I would need > that right > > model typewriter. Anyone have a spare..? > > Also I have another problem with it, memory is suffering wire corrosion > (like > > these all does). So this can be a looooong shot, but if someone have a > functional > > memory or just core array, I'm interested to buy or swap it to something. > > Photos can be found my blog, link below. > > Thaaaaanks! > > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 05:00:48 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:00:48 +0100 Subject: Who recognizes this (UK) architecture (from 1970-1985)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <035801d1c7b5$f5665f30$e0331d90$@gmail.com> Eric, I have forwarded this to some ex-Ferranti folks who may be able to help. The Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester has many of the old Ferranti papers and there may be some information in their archives, but much of the technical info went to other buyers. Dave. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik Baigar > Sent: 16 June 2016 09:23 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Who recognizes this (UK) architecture (from 1970-1985)? > > > Hi There, > > I am working on restoration, documentation of a some vintage navigation > systems from the late 1970ties, which have been designed in the UK. They > contain an archaic bit-serial computer and I'd be interested if someone on this > list recognizes the architecture and/or can confirm my assumptions: > > The bitserial computer consists of around 300 TTL chips (54xx); it has 8 bits > instructions and operates on 16 bit memory. The 3 LOWER bits of the opcode > define the instruction and the HIGHER bits the location (0-31, i.e. address) - > most other architectures I know have the instruction coded in the MSBs! Here is > a list of the basic instructions: > > 1 : Load Ac from memory > 2 : Store Ac to memory > 3 : Add to Ac > 4 : Sub from Ac > 5 : IO-Instructions (32 Channels, there are some special > channels as 0 loads AC with "0" whereas channel 31 loads > -1 into Ac). > 6 : Shift instructions - depending on the address field, > Ac is shifted arithmetically (preserving MSB, the sign) or > cyclic. > 7 : Bit test instructions - 0-15 test bits of the Ac register, > 16-31 test external digital inputs and are used for > communication with the hardware. > > And finally, put last for didactic reasons: > > 0 : Here we have a bunch of special instructions depending > on the address field, like selection of memory page, > conditional jump, loading of data from ROM into the > Accumulator (Ac), multiply, divide, conditional JUMP,... > > What makes the architecture very unique to me is, that it has > 32 bit capability, i.e. there is a "double length" flag and if this is set, most > commands operate on 32 bit (1-6, MUL, DIV). > > Additionally there is a "logic flag" which causes e.g. the instuctions ADD and > SUB to switch to change their operation from ADD/SUB to logic AND/NXOR. > > Apart from this, ROM and RAM are separated (the CPU cann not exe- cute > code in RAM) and the RAM is segmented in 4 pages of 31 words. > > The machine does not have got a stack, there is no subroutine call and only just > one flag used for conditional JUMPs. Via the test in- structions (e.g. test Accu > bit 3, test Ac<0) this flag is modified and a following "Jump if Flag Set" acutally > causes the conditional JUMP. > > As the navigation system is made by Ferranti I, already had a look at the > varouos computers made by them (Mark1, Pegasus, Atlas, and Argus). I think > given the timeline, and the word widths the Argus 600 or 700 architectures > may be closely related, but the 600's command set is quite different... > > http://www.wylie.org.uk/technology/computer/Argus/PeteFarr.htm > > Can anyone out there confirm this? Is a instruction set listing of the Argus 700 > available somewhere? > > A video on the system can be found fon YouTube although this is not focused on > the digital computer it may be of interest as it gives a overview on the > application, the projected map cockpit display (one of the devices controlled by > the system) and it shows my homebrew logger developed durig analysis of the > box: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8 > > Interesting in this system is also the delicate mechanics and the mix of digital > computing, analog computing (platform stabilization, compensation of cross > talk errors and anisoelasticity, platform erection, first integration from > acceleration to speed) and mechanical computing (the ingetration of turn rate > happens me- chanically within the gyrsocopes).For this reasons, these systems > are the most extraordinary masterpiece of engineering I know... > > Best regards, > > Erik, Germany, Munich... > > From erik at baigar.de Thu Jun 16 05:36:36 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:36:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Who recognizes this (UK) architecture (from 1970-1985)? In-Reply-To: <035801d1c7b5$f5665f30$e0331d90$@gmail.com> References: <035801d1c7b5$f5665f30$e0331d90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, thanks for your answer and for the hint. I had been in touch with the Museum in Manchester at the very beginning of the investigation on this unit and they had been able to supply some marketing brochures on Ferranti in general and the navigation business in special, but there have not been many technical details. > I have forwarded this to some ex-Ferranti folks who may be able to help. That is really great. I have a quite detailed understanding on how the unit works now, but there are many questions still open - especially regarding assembly and alignment in the factory. It would be really great to get in touch with some of the old hands of the log gone era of these systems... The system was alost surely designed and built in Scotland (Edinburgh) as many of the type plates indicate so. In the meantime I fixed 4 of them and together with some avionics enthusiasts over here we try to keep them up and running. We even had one of these installed in a car for a 1h trip around Munich ;-) Many thanks again, Erik. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik > Baigar >> Sent: 16 June 2016 09:23 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Who recognizes this (UK) architecture (from 1970-1985)? >> >> >> Hi There, >> >> I am working on restoration, documentation of a some vintage navigation >> systems from the late 1970ties, which have been designed in the UK. They >> contain an archaic bit-serial computer and I'd be interested if someone on > this >> list recognizes the architecture and/or can confirm my assumptions: >> >> The bitserial computer consists of around 300 TTL chips (54xx); it has 8 > bits >> instructions and operates on 16 bit memory. The 3 LOWER bits of the opcode >> define the instruction and the HIGHER bits the location (0-31, i.e. > address) - >> most other architectures I know have the instruction coded in the MSBs! > Here is >> a list of the basic instructions: >> >> 1 : Load Ac from memory >> 2 : Store Ac to memory >> 3 : Add to Ac >> 4 : Sub from Ac >> 5 : IO-Instructions (32 Channels, there are some special >> channels as 0 loads AC with "0" whereas channel 31 loads >> -1 into Ac). >> 6 : Shift instructions - depending on the address field, >> Ac is shifted arithmetically (preserving MSB, the sign) or >> cyclic. >> 7 : Bit test instructions - 0-15 test bits of the Ac register, >> 16-31 test external digital inputs and are used for >> communication with the hardware. >> >> And finally, put last for didactic reasons: >> >> 0 : Here we have a bunch of special instructions depending >> on the address field, like selection of memory page, >> conditional jump, loading of data from ROM into the >> Accumulator (Ac), multiply, divide, conditional JUMP,... >> >> What makes the architecture very unique to me is, that it has >> 32 bit capability, i.e. there is a "double length" flag and if this is > set, most >> commands operate on 32 bit (1-6, MUL, DIV). >> >> Additionally there is a "logic flag" which causes e.g. the instuctions ADD > and >> SUB to switch to change their operation from ADD/SUB to logic AND/NXOR. >> >> Apart from this, ROM and RAM are separated (the CPU cann not exe- cute >> code in RAM) and the RAM is segmented in 4 pages of 31 words. >> >> The machine does not have got a stack, there is no subroutine call and > only just >> one flag used for conditional JUMPs. Via the test in- structions (e.g. > test Accu >> bit 3, test Ac<0) this flag is modified and a following "Jump if Flag Set" > acutally >> causes the conditional JUMP. >> >> As the navigation system is made by Ferranti I, already had a look at the >> varouos computers made by them (Mark1, Pegasus, Atlas, and Argus). I think >> given the timeline, and the word widths the Argus 600 or 700 architectures >> may be closely related, but the 600's command set is quite different... >> >> http://www.wylie.org.uk/technology/computer/Argus/PeteFarr.htm >> >> Can anyone out there confirm this? Is a instruction set listing of the > Argus 700 >> available somewhere? >> >> A video on the system can be found fon YouTube although this is not > focused on >> the digital computer it may be of interest as it gives a overview on the >> application, the projected map cockpit display (one of the devices > controlled by >> the system) and it shows my homebrew logger developed durig analysis of > the >> box: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8 >> >> Interesting in this system is also the delicate mechanics and the mix of > digital >> computing, analog computing (platform stabilization, compensation of cross >> talk errors and anisoelasticity, platform erection, first integration from >> acceleration to speed) and mechanical computing (the ingetration of turn > rate >> happens me- chanically within the gyrsocopes).For this reasons, these > systems >> are the most extraordinary masterpiece of engineering I know... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Erik, Germany, Munich... >> >> > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 09:17:59 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:17:59 +0000 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > This further helps my understanding. Problem is, the card is bad. Knowing > it's probably jumpered correctly (assuming I have everything right, which > is a big assumption) I will check the 1488/89 drivers, etc. to see what's > wrong with the card. What I would do is : Check that there are transmit and receive clocks at the UART pins (pin 40 and pin 17 IIRC). If missing, check the clock circuitry, crystal, etc. Check that there is a character strobe (I think the UART pin is called 'TRL' -- Transmit Register Load) at the UART when you try to write to the appropriate address. Make sure you don't get a bus timeout error when you do that too. If that's not right, check the address decoder, bus slave logic, etc Check if there is any data coming out the UART on the Transmit register output pin. If not (and if everything else is OK), suspect the UART chip. But check it's not being held reset, it's getting power, etc. Check the transmit driver (1488) Check the cable, if it's not the one you used with the other serial port card. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 09:45:18 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:45:18 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15 June 2016 at 20:39, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: >> In Ireland, "gear" means hard drugs, so maybe it's safer! > > Whoa. I didn't know that. You are right. I'll have to convert to using > "kit" exclusively next time I'm in the UK. I'm usually just in Heathrow or > Gatwick waiting to fly out to Oslo. I still have some friends in Norway I > visit every 5-10 years. They speak British English, too. So, for all I > know they might think the same in Oslo. However, I don't remember hearing > that particular term there when I lived in Norway about 15 years ago. > However, I lived in a little town called Moss, and there wasn't much in > the way of hard drugs to talk about, hehe. :-) There wasn't a lot in Oslo either, as of about 15y ago, either. > Rock on. That sounds fun. Those are some cute little micros. TBH I never use 'em. :-( > I cite the similarities between 'svchost' and 'systemd'. [...] No, I don't buy it. I think fairer comparisons are Apple's launchd and Oracle's SMF. It's a modern init. Most of panic is just headless running around. No, it's not an old-fashioned simplistic Unix utility. Hey, newsflash, neither is GNOME, neither is KDE. Neither is much of modern Unix. If people wanted to keep to the simplicity of Unix and bring it into a more modern world, they had Plan 9. Plan 9 brought networking & the GUI into the Unix everything-is-a-file model. But everyone ignored it, pretty much. Some wrinkles got copied later. And Plan 9 went one better, and (mostly) eliminated that nasty old unsafe mess, C, and it eliminated native binaries and brought platform-neutral binaries to the game. Everyone ignored it, too. Unix-heads, you *had* your chance. Your own godlike leader, Dennis Richie, gave you something better. You didn't want it. So he gave you something better still, something more focused than his acolyte James Gosling's effort, Java. You all ignored that, too. Everything isn't a file. It isn't all ASCII. It hasn't been since System III or something, about 35y ago. Life goes on. Unix had grown into a bloated mess long before I came to it. Even FreeBSD, which is why NetBSD exists, and I suspect that by the standards of Unix v 7, NetBSD is pretty bloaty too. No, I don't accept the wailing about non-text logging and monolithic services. Andy Tanenbaum was right. Linux was obsolete in 1991. A new monolithic Unix back then? You're kidding. No. It's a rewrite of the same old 1960s design, with the same 3 decades' worth of crap on top. Today, it's mainly an x86 OS for servers and an ARM OS for smartphones, with a few weirdos using it for workstations. So stop it with the crocodile tears about "it's all text" and so on. Move on. It's over. It was over before I left Uni and I'm an olde pharte now. > That's a good and healthy perspective. I think the core problem with the > systemd drama is that it's created a schism in an area that some naive > folks like me thought there could/would never be one. It's fostered a divide between those who want to modernise the OS and those who favour the old-fashioned ways. :-) > My last NetBSD -current install a > week or two ago was @280M (full install, uncompressed). So, there are > still very lightweight choices available. Eben Upton of the Raspberry Pi project got a private showing of an early alpha of RISC OS Open on the Pi 1. (I saw the same test code. It was driven by a netbook's keyboard and mouse as they hadn't got the USB stack working yet.) It had the Desktop, the WIMP, the Icon Bar, it had an apps folder with the core apps -- !Edit, !Paint, !Maestro etc. in it. It had a file manager, a clock, etc. He was blown away. "How big is it?" he asked "Six meg," they told him. "No, I don't mean the kernel. I mean the whole thing." "Yes, so do we. Six meg. 6MB. We, er, we haven't got the SD card support working yet. This is running out of an image of the boot ROMs, copied into RAM by the GPU." He was stunned. "If I had known this still existed and was maintained, I'd have bundled it with every Pi as the firmware!" he said. This is from memory, but I know a couple of the ROOL team. 280MB isn't bad, but it is _not_ a small OS. Ever seen the QNX demo floppy? _That_ is a small OS. >> From what I've seen, systemd makes things like enabling/disabling >> services _simpler_ for your average Joe. > > Well, I work with both consulting gigs and direct client support for other > Linux admins. So, I directly work with systemd and with users who struggle > with it. I've written some in depth documentation for systemd. It's about > the same from the user point of view. I mean, "service mysqld start" isn't > much different from "systemctl start mysqld". If you mean that it'd be > easier for a user to setup a unit file than a script; probably so. > However, most packages/software come with a script or unit file anyway (or > both in some cases). I don't think systemd is significantly easier or > harder for users, honestly. It's just different at that level. It's what's > under the hood and the way it was done that's more controversial. That's your knowledge speaking. As I said, I've been using Unix for about 27y now. I'm not a noob. I never fathomed the SysV init. And compared to many of the 20something sysadmins I meet today, I am a god. The Six Stages of systemd [linux.conf.au 2014]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-97qqUHwzGM No. If you don't know what you're doing, systemd is easier, I think. And most people don't know, and that is OK, and it is how the world is trending. Look at iPads. Look at Android phones. You think those billion+ people know what an APK file is, or what the difference is between Java and Dalvik? Don't be silly. Of course not. It has to be safe, reliable, easy. Yes it's big and complex and monolithic. So is Linux. You want simple, small, clean, functional isolation? Go help the Minix 3 team. That's what they are doing. Linux is all about sticking it in one big lump for performance. > They might see what they are doing as "moving on", but > folks who revere and respect UNIX as a set of ideas see that as a betrayal > of those ideas. Ie.. like saying you are "moving on" from your wife to > your mistress. It's definitely a change, but it's also breaking faith with > someone who trusted you. Right or wrong, justified or not, that's how a > lot of people felt. Fine. If they want continuity, they can use *BSD. If they want real improvements, they can go help Minix 3 get there. Andrew Tanenbaum - MINIX 3: A Reliable and Secure Operating System - Codemotion Rome 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiGjp7JHiYs > Well, neither am I, really. It's just super-uber-geek stuff and probably a > tempest in a teacup to everyone else. Linux has incredible momentum right > now. Exactly. As was Unity vs GNOME 3. They're smaller than rounding errors given the main user bases of, well, anything any non-geek has heard of. > That's a fair point. Also, I was repeating/quoting something I'm seeing on > forums and Reddit, I'm not sure I'd agree that OSX + BSD encompass the > ultimate solution to all problems either. There are definitely some > people who feel more comfortable with those values. Plus, Linux is free > and that has a ton of value that OSX can't compete with also. Schoolkids > in 3rd world countries are much better served by Linux than OSX, as far as > I can tell. Exactly. > The Apple hardware and licensing is just too expensive for > some uses. True. Me, mostly. All but the one I'm typing on were freebies. This one, I paid about $200. > Sure, but as a desktop or server OS, Android, oh man, I don't even know > where to start. I'll just say that you won't find me buying any Android > desktops or servers in the near future, no matter how many lemmings run > off that particular cliff. I like my illusion of *some* privacy, too, but > I digress. Well, OK, true, but you know what, I used a better OS. I bought a Blackberry Passport. Lovely device. But it bombed, and the OS is dead in the water now. > Yes. IRIX is dead as a doornail. Also, with the way it died, I'd give > about 1000:1 odds of any legal form of IRIX ever re-surfacing. However, I > noticed that the source is floating around several places. Maybe some > illegal/hobbyist/illicit stuff might eventually see the light, but I doubt > it. It seems to me even the forums on Nekochan are slowing down. I still > use it and love it, and I have no problems securing it for "real world" > stuff. However, it's nothing but a hobby, nowadays. Was it really different enough? What did it do other Unices don't? I wonder if it's a bit like reading the Unix Haters' Handbook now. Much of the stuff they rage about is long long gone, just went away as the tech improved. But dear gods, they'd be appalled at the size and performance of Linux in 2016. > Yes, and I wish both of those projects well. I've actually donated money > to both projects. Oh wow! Good for you! > Cool; you're a true scrounger, then! Well, I was, but mainly because I was very poor. :-( > The real > problem was the PRAM battery. Once I replaced that, the machine booted up > fine and the monitor powers on once it sees the video signal. It's a bit > out of focus, but I took the cover off and adjusted the pots on the CRT > logic board to my liking. It looks very nice, now. :-) Yeah, those PRAM batteries were a PITA. *That* was bad design. > Cool. That's longer than me. I started in 1992 with HPUX, then 1993 with > Linux, then @1997 or so with BSD and went nuts with tons of other > variants, too. That was my "UNIX World Tour" time (the mid-1990s). I > wanted to learn them ALL (and I'm still trying). I've been pretty > obsessed with UNIX since day-one. It was definitely love at first sight. You've learned a /lot/ more than me, though, that's obvious. Most of my career, Windows has paid the bills. :-( > Hmm. I think you'd fly right through it, Liam. You are a smart guy, I > doubt you'd have any significant problems these days. Nah. Last time was FreeBSD 9. It'd not improved much by then and I don't think it has now. PC-BSD I like, but there's nothing in it to drag me over from Linux. I also failed to get an OpenSolaris install online. > Yeah, I'm not quite intrepid enough to want to collect any 68000-based > macs. They didn't start to interest me until the Mac IIfx/IIci days and > the 040' came around. You can all get a belly laugh from the fact that the > main reason I got a Quadra 700 is that it looks so damn cool in Jurassic > Park (and it runs A/UX). :-P I wanted one compact Mac, one high-end '040, one transition-period, last-gen G3. Not sure I have the space or ever will again. I'm close to selling /everything/, getting on my bike and becoming nomadic. If I can't carry it, it goes. It's a dream for now but I don't know for how long... > Ugh. When I saw that on OSnews or Slashdot or wherever, I let out a big > sigh, because it's *hard enough* to find 68k-related stuff. Market-droids > these days can only act on previous programming. That's why we have so > many Marvel movies and "reboots" / "re-imagined" versions of older movies. > Real creativity must be approved by the corporate board (and doesn't get > approved). True that! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 09:46:41 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:46:41 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <201606152347.TAA14469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5761AC98.4060403@oryx.us> <201606152347.TAA14469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 16 June 2016 at 01:47, Mouse wrote: > So are Linux and BSD, right up until you start caring about the _legal_ > definition of UNIX, which is why they call themselves as "based on > UNIX" or "UNIX-like" or the like. But (IMO, of course) the legal sense > is the only one in which they aren't UNIX. I think RHEL has passed certification now, FWIW. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 09:48:20 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:48:20 +0200 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <20160616112500.GA20799@mooli.org.uk> References: <01Q0U6A8AP8O00DHUP@beyondthepale.ie> <20160531231415.GA32459@brevard.conman.org> <574E2801.4030206@sydex.com> <799E29BF-463E-4702-8187-62FE099CEC27@orthanc.ca> <575EF082.1040804@sydex.com> <20160616112500.GA20799@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 16 June 2016 at 13:25, Peter Corlett wrote: > My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC > includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn > away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice, > having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked. That'd be Mr Techpractical, then? :-D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 10:42:22 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:42:22 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <001001d1c7cf$ef812130$ce836390$@classiccmp.org> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> <001001d1c7cf$ef812130$ce836390$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Jay West wrote: > > Marc showed me a machine that was badged "1000F", but had no FP box under it. I of course (incorrectly) told him - it ain't an F unless you go back and get the FP box that goes with. He found that in the rear above the I/O cage, there was a wide (width of the chassis) card cage of about 3 slots, that was apparently for an FP. My reply (wrong) was that it must be a custom job. > > Turns out - there was a model of F designated 2111F which has the FP boards inside the main chassis above the I/O cage, and the 2117F which has the boards in a separate box under the cpu. Either I never knew about this 2111F, or my brain blocked it out or forgot it. I'm going with the former ;) > > J I don't know if the "HP 1000 F-Series Computer Installation and Service Manual", part number 02111-90002 is available on Bitsavers. You can find it here: http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2388 Figures 1-2 and 1-3 show the difference between the 2111F and 2117F and how the two FPP Arithmetic and Control PCAs fit into the top of the 2111F instead of into a separate box below the 2117F. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 11:25:17 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:25:17 -0500 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> <001001d1c7cf$ef812130$ce836390$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000201d1c7eb$ab40d5d0$01c28170$@classiccmp.org> Glen wrote ---- Figures 1-2 and 1-3 show the difference between the 2111F and 2117F and how the two FPP Arithmetic and Control PCAs fit into the top of the 2111F instead of into a separate box below the 2117F. ---- Yeah, I checked my M/E/F red handbook that I keep next to the system console and have read thoroughly for years, and sure enough it mentions the 2111F as well. Which means it's not that I never knew it... unfortunately - it means I forgot it. What's going to go next.... oh no. lol J From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 16 12:08:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:08:15 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <001001d1c7cf$ef812130$ce836390$@classiccmp.org> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> <001001d1c7cf$ef812130$ce836390$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9bda96a0-9c4d-c70e-bef7-7adef6fc91f7@bitsavers.org> On 6/16/16 6:06 AM, Jay West wrote: > Marc wrote... > ----- > It's part of an HP 5451C Fourier Analysis system > I've got a 5451C service manual, it's in the queue to scan. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 12:53:43 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:53:43 -0400 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? References: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> <20160615152320.GA31351@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <52A7F779A0CC43EE9CBA11C39914CDAC@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 10:05 AM Subject: Re: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? On 15 June 2016 at 17:23, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 04:51:43PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > [...] >> * Simplicity -- the Finder integration with the OS, the desktop database, >> etc. Move items around, aliases still point to them. Even to other drives, >> even to other machines on the same network! > > Not that I'm any fan of Windows, but don't NTFS junctions do this? They're a > kind of cross-volume hard link. Honestly, I'm not sure. But if they do, Explorer doesn't know about it, and Windows shortcuts don't do any of it. Even plain old symlinks are more capable than shortcuts; only Explorer really understands them and not always then. ================== Shortcuts, Junctions, Hard links and Symbolic links, all different. Symbolic links are the only ones that can span different volumes AFAIK. m From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 13:27:38 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:27:38 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <9bda96a0-9c4d-c70e-bef7-7adef6fc91f7@bitsavers.org> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> <001001d1c7cf$ef812130$ce836390$@classiccmp.org> <9bda96a0-9c4d-c70e-bef7-7adef6fc91f7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1F33D20D-12A6-4DFF-B6C6-AA00E59383B4@gmail.com> Al, Yes please! I was looking all over for that so I can try to pick up the right pieces from the seller. Hurry (or maybe I can come around and take a peek?). Marc > On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> On 6/16/16 6:06 AM, Jay West wrote: >> Marc wrote... >> ----- >> It's part of an HP 5451C Fourier Analysis system > > I've got a 5451C service manual, it's in the queue to scan. > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 13:32:24 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:32:24 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <000f01d1c7ce$a09a4430$e1cecc90$@classiccmp.org> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004701d1c795$58f857e0$0ae907a0$@gmail.com> <000f01d1c7ce$a09a4430$e1cecc90$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8D8DA4A7-3C86-4B4A-B99C-A18C122A43E0@gmail.com> Apparently the 21MX-K is an HP 2105 sold as board kit without a chassis and power supply. Motherboard, firmware board, short risers, and front panel. So you can stick your own embedded computer in your project, add your own specialized boards (and keyboard!).The Arduino controller of the time (but 16 bits!). Marc Sent from my iPad > On Jun 16, 2016, at 5:57 AM, Jay West wrote: > > Marc wrote... > ----- > 21MX K (whatever a K-model is, never heard of it, but seems to be made of an HP 2105 model, I'll look that up > ----- > I have not been HP-focused for a year or so, I've had my head in DG stuff instead and I am finding that I'm forgetting (and remembering wrong) many HP things lol But.... > > Foggy Memory - The main difference between the 2105 and 2112 (and separately the 2109 and 2113) was mechanical. I seem to recall that the elusive "K" series (which I have a sales brochure for somewhere, but I have never seen in the wild, nor do I know of anyone who has one) was a "pick and choose" at order time - "Roll Your Own 21MX". It was apparently some form of "modular" so you could get bits and pieces of the different models in one model (right down to the number of slots you wanted). > > J > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 13:37:05 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:37:05 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <001e01d1c7ac$9747ea30$c5d7be90$@xs4all.nl> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> <001e01d1c7ac$9747ea30$c5d7be90$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <950B6248-03B0-43AA-BDF5-CD55D6FABBFB@gmail.com> Very nice! Did you do that? Where you able to revive it? Do you have a picture if the MIOB interface boards, I have some unidentified boards in my system, that might be it! Marc Sent from my iPad > On Jun 16, 2016, at 1:53 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > Some picture and a short video loading the operation software on: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/albums/72157651930423960 > > -Rik From spc at conman.org Thu Jun 16 14:35:24 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:35:24 -0400 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160616193524.GA11382@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > On 14 June 2016 at 01:56, Sean Conner wrote: > > What do you feel is still missing from OS-X today? About the only thing I > > can think of is the unique file system, where each file had a data and a > > resource fork. > > * The clean, totally CLI-less nature of it. Atari ST GEM imitated this, > but it had the DOS-like legacy baggage of drive letters etc. So did the Amiga and it didn't have the baggage of drive letters. Okay, so it had drive names. Instead of A:\path\to\file it had: DF0:path/to/file But you also had logical drive names. Give the drive the name "Fred" and you could reference a file as: Fred:path/to/file A nice side effect is that if there was no disk with the name of "Fred" installed, AmigaOS would pop up a dialog box asking for the user to insert the disk named "Fred". It wouldn't matter what physical drive you popped the disk into, AmigaOS would find it. And, if you copied the files off the disk Fred to the harddrive, say: DH1:applications/local/fred you could do assign Fred=DH1:applications/local/fred and there you go. I find that nicer than environment variables in that it's invisible to applications---the OS handles it for you. And while on Unix, the shell will expand environment variables, individual applications (say, an editor) vary on support for such expansions. Personally, I like CLIs, but I'm used to them from the start. And for some work flows, I find its faster and easier than a graphical system. > >> I wish the Star Trek project had come to some kind of fruition. > >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project > > > > Reading that, it sounds like it would have been much like early > > Windows---an application that would run on top of MS-DOS (or in this case, > > DR-DOS). > > My impression is that DR-DOS would have been a bootloader, little more. Then why even bother with DR-DOS then? -spc From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 16 14:47:14 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:47:14 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <1F33D20D-12A6-4DFF-B6C6-AA00E59383B4@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> <004901d1c79b$da3b1b20$8eb15160$@gmail.com> <004b01d1c79c$e0cecd50$a26c67f0$@gmail.com> <001001d1c7cf$ef812130$ce836390$@classiccmp.org> <9bda96a0-9c4d-c70e-bef7-7adef6fc91f7@bitsavers.org> <1F33D20D-12A6-4DFF-B6C6-AA00E59383B4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/16/16 11:27 AM, Curious Marc wrote: > Hurry ain't gonna happen, i'm in the middle of another fscking move From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jun 16 14:59:25 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:59:25 +0200 Subject: DLI/Dolch C-100D Manuals? Message-ID: <20160616195925.GD26731@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, I've shoot an DLI / Dolch Logic Instrumnets Logic Analyzer Type C-100D on ebay today. It seems that I get some pos too, unfortunately no Z80 personality ..but a lot standard Pods. Since there are no Manuals for it included in the auction I'm asking nicely here if someone has the paperwork for this LA preferable in machine readable form ..? Has someone a z80 Personality to sell? TIA, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From spc at conman.org Thu Jun 16 15:09:02 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:09:02 -0400 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > It's a modern init. Most of panic is just headless running around. No, > it's not an old-fashioned simplistic Unix utility. Hey, newsflash, > neither is GNOME, neither is KDE. Neither is much of modern Unix. I'm not a fan of systemd, but it's not because SysV init is better, but because of the increasing scope of systemd. Okay, fine, it's a init that tracks daemons and will restart them automatically if they stop (or crash, or whatever). That's nice. I don't have a problem with that. It can parallelize the startup daemons. Okay ... I never had an issue with how long a system takes to come up as I don't really shut any of the computers off (even my desktop boxes). But hey, okay. But no more syslog (okay, I know that's not technically true, but syslog becomes a 2nd class citizen here). No, Lennart decided to use a binary-only logging system that's mostly undocumented (or rather, it's documented in code that is subject to change from version to version) and there's no need to forward the logs to another system---use that 2nd class syslog for that crap if you need it. But that's it. systemd only requires journald to run. Oh, let's use dbus for IPC because ... well ... I have no idea what, exactly, dbus brings to the game that any of the other IPC mechanisms that currently exist in Unix fail to have, other than being a usermode program and yet another dependency from what I understand was mostly used as an IPC mechanism for the desktop, but now required for servers as well. Linus is *still* fighting the systemd guys because they want to force dbus into the kernel. Oh, and because of the say systemd works, it takes over cgroup management. The Linux kernel provides mechanism, not policy, but now, we have systemd forcing a cgroup policy on everything. Okay, perhaps systemd is the first program to actually *use* cgroups but if at some point in the future you want to play around with it, well ... sorry. systemd is in control there. Login management is now the domain of systemd. Oh, and don't forget the little dustup over the "debug" kernel command line: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=mty1mza Over time, syslogd is taking over more and more of the system. And that would be fine if it were just RedHat (and RedHat derived) distributions. But no, Lennart is, by sheer force of will, forcing *all* Linux distributions to use systemd. Hell, it's now trying to force systemd specific behavior in applications: https://github.com/tmux/tmux/issues/428 Never mind that said application can run on other Unix systems. Oh, and forget running GNome on any other system than Linux with systemd. THAT is my problem with systemd. It's mandating a $#!?load of policy and dependencies with largly undocumented APIs. > If people wanted to keep to the simplicity of Unix and bring it into a > more modern world, they had Plan 9. Plan 9 brought networking & the > GUI into the Unix everything-is-a-file model. > > But everyone ignored it, pretty much. Some wrinkles got copied later. > > And Plan 9 went one better, and (mostly) eliminated that nasty old > unsafe mess, C, and it eliminated native binaries and brought > platform-neutral binaries to the game. Um ... what? Plan 9 is written in C. And they still use binaries, just fat binaries (that is, the binary contains multiple code and data segments for each supported architecture0). This isn't just limited to Plan 9---Mac did this as well. > Andy Tanenbaum was right. Linux was obsolete in 1991. A new monolithic > Unix back then? You're kidding. No. It's a rewrite of the same old > 1960s design, with the same 3 decades' worth of crap on top. > > Today, it's mainly an x86 OS for servers and an ARM OS for > smartphones, with a few weirdos using it for workstations. So stop it ^^^^^^^^^^^ Wow! Nice insult there. Care to add more? And for the record, I still use Linux as (one) of my desktops machines. > with the crocodile tears about "it's all text" and so on. Move on. > It's over. It was over before I left Uni and I'm an olde pharte now. And you want an older Mac ... why? System 9 is dead. Gone on. Pining for the fjords! Move on, man! Move on! > > Yes. IRIX is dead as a doornail. Also, with the way it died, I'd give > > about 1000:1 odds of any legal form of IRIX ever re-surfacing. However, I > > noticed that the source is floating around several places. Maybe some > > illegal/hobbyist/illicit stuff might eventually see the light, but I doubt > > it. It seems to me even the forums on Nekochan are slowing down. I still > > use it and love it, and I have no problems securing it for "real world" > > stuff. However, it's nothing but a hobby, nowadays. > > Was it really different enough? What did it do other Unices don't? It was SysV with kickass graphics hardware. Suns were BSD (at the time, prior to Solaris) with not-so-great graphics hardware. That's pretty much the difference. -spc (Never did like Suns, but then again, I was spoiled by using SGIs) From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 16 15:25:52 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:25:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? References: <902563183.28987.1466108752030.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <902563183.28987.1466108752030.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 6/16/16, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > > And Plan 9 went one better, and (mostly) eliminated that nasty old > > unsafe mess, C, and it eliminated native binaries and brought > > platform-neutral binaries to the game. > >? Um ... what?? Plan 9 is written in C.? And they still use binaries, just > fat binaries (that is, the binary contains multiple code and data segments > for each supported architecture0). I suspect he was referring to Inferno when talking about the byte code executables. But Plan 9 doesn't use fat binaries. It keeps each architecture's binaries in a directory named for the architecture. Then one uses the union mounts to build a /bin that has the appropriate mix of binaries and shell scripts for the machine hosting that process. BLS From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jun 16 17:10:34 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201606162210.SAA17268@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> No, it's not an old-fashioned simplistic Unix utility. Hey, >> newsflash, neither is GNOME, neither is KDE. And if either of those were being made as central to the system as systemd is, there would be a similar outcry against them. The problem is not that systemd is bloated, or buggy, or badly designed. The problem is that it's bloated, buggy, badly designed - _and_ is being made very, very central to even rudimentary operation of the OS. Well, that, and that a whole lot of users perceive it as being rammed down their metaphorical throats, something that raises hackles at the best of times. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 17:32:25 2016 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:32:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Hazeltine 2000 Manuals References: <1649873126.4871684.1466116345782.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1649873126.4871684.1466116345782.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, These Hazeltine 2000 were just on Ebay and were quickly snatched up.=C2=A0 = Did anybody here happen to snag them? http://www.ebay.com/itm/272275536298 http://www.ebay.com/itm/282069468875 I've been looking for these manuals for some time.=C2=A0 If someone won the= m (or has a set), I wonder if you'd be willing to create some nice high-qua= lity scans.=C2=A0 I'd be willing to pitch in to cover the costs of scanning= large pages, etc. with high resolution.=C2=A0 Alternatively, if anyone has= similar manuals and would be willing to sell them, I'd be interested. Thanks for any info! Dave From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 18:34:11 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:34:11 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 2000 Manuals In-Reply-To: <1649873126.4871684.1466116345782.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1649873126.4871684.1466116345782.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1649873126.4871684.1466116345782.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Dave wrote: > Hi all, > These Hazeltine 2000 were just on Ebay and were quickly snatched up.=C2=A0 = > Did anybody here happen to snag them? > http://www.ebay.com/itm/272275536298 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/282069468875 Funny I was just following links from my saved searches and found those same two auctions and wondered who got them. Hope it's someone with a scanner and copious free time! -j From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 09:58:05 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:58:05 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Check the cable, if it's not the one you used with the other > serial port card. > > -tony > Tony, Thanks for the tips. The card may have bad component(s) but at least it had not yet been previously repaired when the unit was in production. I find "vintage" repairs from back in their day are often sloppy and caused damage. I'd rather have a bad card "as-was" so there is a better chance to restore today. It seems as if the 1488's go bad on these more often than 1489's. The original cable, p/n is a 1700004-1 flat cable with Berg connectors on either end so I had to find something compatible with a terminal instead. I switched in the same BC03L-10 that I have been using to connect to a 25-pin terminal (with null modem adapter) using a newer DL11-W. (M7856). b From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 10:15:47 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:15:47 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 10:58 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> >> Check the cable, if it's not the one you used with the other >> serial port card. >> > > The original cable, p/n is a 1700004-1 flat cable with Berg connectors on > either end so I had to find something compatible with a terminal instead. > I switched in the same BC03L-10 that I have been using to connect to a > 25-pin terminal (with null modem adapter) using a newer DL11-W. (M7856). Does your cable connect E to M? http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2015-November/012531.html -ethan From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jun 16 11:54:21 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:54:21 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I the HP -> Agilent -> Keysight world when you see part numbers start with a 0 (zero) in many cases the instrument they were for or in this case part of, is the digits that follow. Not in all cases, this falls apart for things that were common between instruments or the item was already had been used. Card extenders are a good example, there are common extenders that fall under the tools area, and follow a p/n that is just sequential. But it a good initial strings to go look for. If Google does not come up with anything try Keysight. If someone is serious about restoring the whole FFT rack, let me know I ended up with about 75% of one. I acquired it for the CRT which is used in other instruments, one of which I own. -pete On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > See: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1977-10.pdf Figure 4 > > Shows some of those other parts as well in the block diagram. Uses a "HP > 21MX K-Series Computer". > > Model 5420A Digital Signal Analyzer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > CuriousMarc > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:16 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Mystery HP 1000 board > > You beat me! You got one hit. How did you search for that? I come up dry... > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete > Lancashire > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:50 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Mystery HP 1000 board > > Well there are 20 bits of ALU .... > > And this guy has one and some other boards > > http://nevadabarry.com/electron.html#HP%20Test%20Equipment > > HP 5443 > 05443-60047 > 05443-60042 > 05443-60031 MIOB Interface > 05443-60050 Booster Microcode > 05443-60057 C (13803F?) > 05443-60071 A (22803F) > > NO Connection with the site/person/etc .. just passing it on > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Jay West wrote: > > > I have one of those boards. You sent me an email about it and I > > replied a week ago :) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > CuriousMarc > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:49 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board > > > > Can anyone identify this HP board (see link to pictures)? > > > > https://goo.gl/photos/BBuAV1oozWNSqeUTA > > > > It was at under the main board of a newly acquired HP 1000-E, next to > > the firmware board. It says HP 54427-60050 Booster Microcode. It has 5 > > bitslice SN 74S181 chips at the back. So I surmise maybe it's a late > > ALU booster upgrade? > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From earl at baugh.org Thu Jun 16 12:32:23 2016 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:32:23 -0400 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) Message-ID: From: Swift Griggs On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote: > I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses. I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO. I'm puzzled, what do you mean two part? Cap and key? That's all I've gotten from Unicomp... That's how I got all of the "blank" caps from... EarltheSquirrel From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Jun 16 12:50:26 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:50:26 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413B75FD-5607-407A-8240-DB6D04069B96@nf6x.net> > On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:32 , Earl Baugh wrote: > > I'm puzzled, what do you mean two part? Cap and key? > That's all I've gotten from Unicomp... That's how I got all of the "blank" > caps from... Yes, I think that most of the keys on the Unicomp keyboard I bought a year or so ago were two-part. If I recall correctly, some keys like Caps Lock (which I swapped with Ctrl, naturally) were one-part keys, but all of the 1x1 keys were 2-part. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 13:41:58 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2016, Earl Baugh wrote: > From: Swift Griggs > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote: >> I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses. > I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO. > > > I'm puzzled, what do you mean two part? Cap and key? > That's all I've gotten from Unicomp... That's how I got all of the "blank" > caps from... I stand corrected! I just pulled a key stem off my PC-102 (has 24 function keys) and it IS a two-part key. I'd looked at the Model M I got from Unicomp years ago and I could've sworn it didn't have the two part key. Maybe I thought that because the cap is much more firmly attached on their keyboard than it is the original IBM Model M. Does anyone other than Unicomp make different key caps? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bear at typewritten.org Thu Jun 16 14:00:03 2016 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:00:03 -0700 Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CDA811E-3A5B-445A-98C4-A2FAF1DFA65B@typewritten.org> Hooleon does/did. For other keyboards as well. ok bear. -- Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 16, 2016, at 11:41, geneb wrote: > > > Does anyone other than Unicomp make different key caps? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 14:16:44 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) In-Reply-To: <7CDA811E-3A5B-445A-98C4-A2FAF1DFA65B@typewritten.org> References: <7CDA811E-3A5B-445A-98C4-A2FAF1DFA65B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2016, r.stricklin wrote: > Hooleon does/did. For other keyboards as well. > "For availability and pricing contact Hooleon Sales" Translation: "We don't stock this stuff so don't bother us." g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 19:37:16 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:37:16 -0700 Subject: Want to trade: Complete MacIvory 2 system for standalone Symbolics XL machine Message-ID: If anyone has standalone Symbolics hardware, and wants to trade for something more managable that can do an LCD display and uses more standard parts, I have the following system for trade for any Merlin / XL machine. I'm going all-in on wacky hardware, because I have multiple machines and already require lots of unweildly consoles. In particular, with one running XL, I want to double down for spare parts. Going by the last few eBay auctions, the value is identical, or even slightly skewed in favor of the MacIvory. Here's what it's kitted out with: > Mac IIfx host > Original Symbolics Keyboard / Mouse adapter > MacIvory II CPU with Floating Point Accellerator > NS 8/16 NuBus Memory > CF card for booting the Mac side > 36gb internal SCA drive for the FEP filesystems > NuVista color card (this can be used directly by S-PAINT, and S-GRAPHICS as a color render head) > Radius ThunderGX accellerated NuBus main graphics > Asante 10 megabit ethernet > Compatible CD-ROM drive > Genera 8.3 & Animation systems loaded Anyone interested in a smaller, friendlier Symbolics experience? Will also consider funding any cross-shipping myself. Cheers, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From thebri at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 20:28:15 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:28:15 -0400 Subject: Eckert - Faster, Faster; books in general Message-ID: Is there an electronic copy of this floating around? My (ex-library) copy is missing all of chapter 11, "What is there to calculate?. (And the last page of the previous chapter). The pages weren't ripped out, they were missing when it was bound. Very annoying, I enjoyed the book right up until it crashed, so to speak. Two, also ex-library, copies are listed on Amazon, and I hesitate to get another copy with the same problem. There are others, of course, at outrageous prices. Or maybe I don't realize the significance of '1st edition, not ex-library'. Just to make any discussion a bit more interesting, what would you suggest along similar lines? The two giant books on IBM (detailing "pre-360", and "360") were quite fun too. bri From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jun 16 20:53:57 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:53:57 -0400 Subject: Eckert - Faster, Faster; books in general In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a102f51-665b-fd8b-3fd6-7a8726fd0ff4@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-16 9:28 PM, Brian Walenz wrote: > ... > > Just to make any discussion a bit more interesting, what would you suggest > along similar lines? The two giant books on IBM (detailing "pre-360", and > "360") were quite fun too. "A Few Good Men From Univac", Lundstrom, MIT Press, is enjoyable but less technical than the IBM books you mentioned. It's a different take on the same period, in a way. --Toby > > bri > From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jun 16 21:03:11 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:03:11 -0500 Subject: media and software Message-ID: <030701d1c83c$66b4c150$341e43f0$@com> I am going back to Dallas next week to sort 2 pallets of media and software. The age runs from reels of tape (9 track? Dated 1989 and earlier) to LTO4. Software, there are a LOT of MS Developer CDs from 2011 and much earlier, Xilinx CDs, AIX CDs, Solaris CDs (the earliest I noticed off the bat was version 6) and a lot of Dell server implementation disks. Also some things on cassette tapes. I need to know what is wanted. After next week it goes in the dumpster. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 500 Pershing Ave. Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 00:08:51 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:08:51 +0000 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com>, Message-ID: > I the HP -> Agilent -> Keysight world when you see part numbers start > with a 0 (zero) in many cases the instrument they were for or in this > case part of, is the digits that follow. As I understand the HP numbering scheme.... Components have part numbers with 2 groups of 4 digits. The first group is the type of component, for example 1820 is digital ICs, 1818 is memory, 1826 is linear ICs, 1853 is PNP (silicon?) transistors, 1854 NPN (silicon?) transistors, 9100 is transformers, etc. There was a list given either in one of the service manuals I read or in Bench Briefs, but I can't find it. Subassemblies (like PCBs) have part numbers with 2 groups of 5 digits. The first group is the model number of the instrument that first used that subassembly, padded with leading zeros. So for example the CPU data path (ALU and registers) board in an HP9830 is an 09810-66514, as it was first used in the HP9810. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 00:10:16 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:10:16 +0000 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > > > The original cable, p/n is a 1700004-1 flat cable with Berg connectors on > > either end so I had to find something compatible with a terminal instead. > > I switched in the same BC03L-10 that I have been using to connect to a > > 25-pin terminal (with null modem adapter) using a newer DL11-W. (M7856). > > Does your cable connect E to M? > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2015-November/012531.html That jumper links the output of the RS232 receiver to the input of the UART, effectively. It shouldn't matter for transmitting. If the card won't send characters to the terminal you need to look for other problems. -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Jun 17 01:13:31 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:13:31 +0200 Subject: Eckert - Faster, Faster; books in general In-Reply-To: <1a102f51-665b-fd8b-3fd6-7a8726fd0ff4@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1a102f51-665b-fd8b-3fd6-7a8726fd0ff4@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20160617061330.GA8531@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 09:53:57PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-06-16 9:28 PM, Brian Walenz wrote: > >... > > > >Just to make any discussion a bit more interesting, what would you suggest > >along similar lines? The two giant books on IBM (detailing "pre-360", and > >"360") were quite fun too. > > "A Few Good Men From Univac", Lundstrom, MIT Press, is enjoyable but less > technical than the IBM books you mentioned. It's a different take on the > same period, in a way. > What are the titles of the IBM books that of which you speak? I suppose you have already read "Soul of a new machine" and perhaps "hackers: heroes of a computer revolution". Not very technical though. /P From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 22:35:46 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:35:46 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 10:58 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > > >> > >> Check the cable, if it's not the one you used with the other > >> serial port card. > >> > > > > The original cable, p/n is a 1700004-1 flat cable with Berg connectors on > > either end so I had to find something compatible with a terminal instead. > > I switched in the same BC03L-10 that I have been using to connect to a > > 25-pin terminal (with null modem adapter) using a newer DL11-W. (M7856). > > Does your cable connect E to M? > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2015-November/012531.html > > -ethan > Ethan, Good question. Yes I believe so. Thanks for the link with useful conversation. A year or two ago I made a cable back before I found this nice DEC branded version so I went through the pin assignment fun then. Update: I now have both a working DL11-W (M7856) and an DL11 (M7800) who connect to my terminal through the DEC cable with part number BC03L-10. I have loaded PDPGUI program so I can test things, etc. Next - Get RT-11 running. That's a whole other thread though. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 17 04:50:52 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Eckert - Faster, Faster; books in general Message-ID: <20160617095052.686BB18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brian Walenz > My (ex-library) copy is missing all of chapter 11, "What is there to > calculate?. (And the last page of the previous chapter). The pages > weren't ripped out, they were missing when it was bound. Very odd. My copy is complete, so if you can't otherwise locate the missing content, I could scan those page for you. They cover: i) multiple simultanous linear equations with unknowns (the problem the ABC was created for), ii) ordinary differential equations such as ballistics calculations (ditto, the ENIAC), iii) partial differential equations, such as fluid dynamics, although the example he uses is from quantum mechanics. > Two, also ex-library, copies are listed on Amazon, and I hesitate to > get another copy with the same problem. You could contact the seller and ask them to check, specifically. > There are others, of course, at outrageous prices. Or maybe I don't > realize the significance of '1st edition, not ex-library'. Well, it say what it means: it's a first edition - some collectors prefer them; and it doesn't have all the stickers, glued-in paperwork, internal markings etc that one finds in a library copy. Collectors often find that annoying - I tend to stay away from ex-library copies unless there's a huge price difference. > Just to make any discussion a bit more interesting, what would you > suggest along similar lines? Oh, goodness, there's a long list. I'll put up an annotated bibliography on the Computer History wiki. > From: Pontus Pihlgren > What are the titles of the IBM books that of which you speak? They are: Charles J. Bashe, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, Emerson W. Pugh, "IBM's Early Computers", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1986 Emerson W. Pugh, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1991 Both are excellent, as are: Emerson W. Pugh, "Memories That Shaped an Industry: Decisions Leading to IBM System/360", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1984 Maurice V. Wilkes, "Memoirs of a Computer Pioneer", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1985 from the same series (the former covers the development of core memory from the perspectiv of IBM). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 17 04:57:06 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 M7800 Message-ID: <20160617095706.458EE18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > William Degnan > Update: I now have .. a working .. DL11 (M7800) What did the problem turn out to be (or is this a different one)? If the latter, do you have any use for a 5-instruction 'scope loop program which sends characters continuously, which you can toggle in, to help debug the broken one? If so, let me know, and I'll verify that it works (I hand- assembled it in my head :-), and send it along. And Ethan, thanks for the tip about that old message! (I'd forgotten about that one!) I will upload the content to the CHW (and add the DB9 pinouts, too). Noel From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 05:36:53 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:36:53 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <52A7F779A0CC43EE9CBA11C39914CDAC@310e2> References: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> <20160615152320.GA31351@mooli.org.uk> <52A7F779A0CC43EE9CBA11C39914CDAC@310e2> Message-ID: On 16 June 2016 at 19:53, Mike Stein wrote: > Shortcuts, Junctions, Hard links and Symbolic links, all different. Yes they are. > Symbolic links are the only ones that can span different volumes AFAIK. No, shortcuts can too, and I have JOINed a folder in one partition to a folder in another partition -- but on the same physical drive. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 08:15:53 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:15:53 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: <20160617095706.458EE18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160617095706.458EE18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <020601d1c89a$6089afd0$219d0f70$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 5:57 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: DL11 M7800 > William Degnan > Update: I now have .. a working .. DL11 (M7800) What did the problem turn out to be (or is this a different one)? If the latter, do you have any use for a 5-instruction 'scope loop program which sends characters continuously, which you can toggle in, to help debug the broken one? If so, let me know, and I'll verify that it works (I hand- assembled it in my head :-), and send it along. And Ethan, thanks for the tip about that old message! (I'd forgotten about that one!) I will upload the content to the CHW (and add the DB9 pinouts, too). Noel ----- Yes, please. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 08:45:45 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:45:45 -0400 Subject: DL11 M7800 In-Reply-To: <20160617095706.458EE18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160617095706.458EE18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > William Degnan > > > Update: I now have .. a working .. DL11 (M7800) > > What did the problem turn out to be (or is this a different one)? > > Different one, using same jumpers. > If the latter, do you have any use for a 5-instruction 'scope loop program > which sends characters continuously, which you can toggle in, to help debug > the broken one? If so, let me know, and I'll verify that it works (I hand- > assembled it in my head :-), and send it along. > > no thanks, not need at the moment. Next, get the system to boot RT11 with RL02. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 08:57:17 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:57:17 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <20160616193524.GA11382@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160613235635.GI3740@brevard.conman.org> <20160616193524.GA11382@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 16 June 2016 at 21:35, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> On 14 June 2016 at 01:56, Sean Conner wrote: > >> > What do you feel is still missing from OS-X today? About the only thing I >> > can think of is the unique file system, where each file had a data and a >> > resource fork. >> >> * The clean, totally CLI-less nature of it. Atari ST GEM imitated this, >> but it had the DOS-like legacy baggage of drive letters etc. > > So did the Amiga and it didn't have the baggage of drive letters. > > Okay, so it had drive names. Instead of > > A:\path\to\file > > it had: > > DF0:path/to/file > > But you also had logical drive names. Give the drive the name "Fred" and > you could reference a file as: > > Fred:path/to/file > > A nice side effect is that if there was no disk with the name of "Fred" > installed, AmigaOS would pop up a dialog box asking for the user to insert > the disk named "Fred". It wouldn't matter what physical drive you popped > the disk into, AmigaOS would find it. And, if you copied the files off the > disk Fred to the harddrive, say: > > DH1:applications/local/fred > > you could do > > assign Fred=DH1:applications/local/fred > > and there you go. I find that nicer than environment variables in that it's > invisible to applications---the OS handles it for you. Thanks for the explanation. That's more detail than I've ever read before. I never used my A1200 much. I put a 68030 in it, mainly as it was the cheapest way to add more Fast RAM -- but the biggest SIMM I could physically fit was an 8MB one. I have 16MB FP-mode DRAM SIMMs in various 680x0 Macs, but they're double-sided and won't fit. I fitted a 400MB IDE hard disk -- the drive cost less than the special cable -- and managed somehow to bodge and fumble my way through installing AmigaOS 3.1 on it. And there I left it. I hope it still works when I remove it from storage! I cherish some hope that AROS makes headway and becomes a usable OS. It strikes me that it'd be a good fit for the many low-end cheap ARM devices appearing now, such as the Raspberry Pi. > Personally, I like CLIs, but I'm used to them from the start. And for > some work flows, I find its faster and easier than a graphical system. Yes, me too. I am happy at a shell prompt and in a GUI. Most OSes that have the latter also have the former, and many have only a CLI, of course. It was just interesting to use machines that had a rich GUI and not even vestiges of a CLI, such as are visible in ST GEM. >> >> I wish the Star Trek project had come to some kind of fruition. >> >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project >> > >> > Reading that, it sounds like it would have been much like early >> > Windows---an application that would run on top of MS-DOS (or in this case, >> > DR-DOS). >> >> My impression is that DR-DOS would have been a bootloader, little more. > > Then why even bother with DR-DOS then? I don't know. I think few people outside Apple have ever even seen the code. Perhaps, like A/UX, it had terminal windows which could run console-mode DOS apps? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 09:09:38 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:09:38 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 16 June 2016 at 22:09, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> It's a modern init. Most of panic is just headless running around. No, >> it's not an old-fashioned simplistic Unix utility. Hey, newsflash, >> neither is GNOME, neither is KDE. Neither is much of modern Unix. > > I'm not a fan of systemd, but it's not because SysV init is better, but > because of the increasing scope of systemd. > > Okay, fine, it's a init that tracks daemons and will restart them > automatically if they stop (or crash, or whatever). That's nice. I don't > have a problem with that. It can parallelize the startup daemons. Okay ... > I never had an issue with how long a system takes to come up as I don't > really shut any of the computers off (even my desktop boxes). But hey, > okay. Really? Wow. I spend real money on getting my machines to start faster. I am delighted when new OS releases include faster booting; it was a major benefit of Windows XP over Windows 2000, and several Ubuntu releases have done similar. It's also immensely important to scalability of modern web apps that the many VMs in their server farms start as quickly as possible. It's a really big deal to me, and to many people. > But no more syslog (okay, I know that's not technically true, but syslog > becomes a 2nd class citizen here). No, Lennart decided to use a binary-only > logging system that's mostly undocumented (or rather, it's documented in > code that is subject to change from version to version) and there's no need > to forward the logs to another system---use that 2nd class syslog for that > crap if you need it. > > But that's it. systemd only requires journald to run. Oh, let's use dbus > for IPC because ... well ... I have no idea what, exactly, dbus brings to > the game that any of the other IPC mechanisms that currently exist in Unix > fail to have, other than being a usermode program and yet another dependency > from what I understand was mostly used as an IPC mechanism for the desktop, > but now required for servers as well. > > Linus is *still* fighting the systemd guys because they want to force dbus > into the kernel. > > Oh, and because of the say systemd works, it takes over cgroup management. > The Linux kernel provides mechanism, not policy, but now, we have systemd > forcing a cgroup policy on everything. Okay, perhaps systemd is the first > program to actually *use* cgroups but if at some point in the future you > want to play around with it, well ... sorry. systemd is in control there. > > Login management is now the domain of systemd. > > Oh, and don't forget the little dustup over the "debug" kernel command > line: > > https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=mty1mza Very interesting -- thanks for that. I was previously unaware of this one. > > Over time, syslogd is taking over more and more of the system. And that > would be fine if it were just RedHat (and RedHat derived) distributions. > But no, Lennart is, by sheer force of will, forcing *all* Linux > distributions to use systemd. Hell, it's now trying to force systemd > specific behavior in applications: > > https://github.com/tmux/tmux/issues/428 > > Never mind that said application can run on other Unix systems. Yes, I'm aware of that spat. > Oh, and forget running GNome on any other system than Linux with systemd. I'm OK with that, and I suspect most FreeBSD etc. users are too. :-) I wrote a piece a few years back pointing out that after GNOME 3, the GNOME community had exploded and shattered: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/03/thank_microsoft_for_linux_desktop_fail/ I ascribe this to hostile action from Microsoft. Few agree. :-) There are a whole host of cross-platform Unix desktops. For a while, GNOME totally dominated, as I wrote in that piece, but it fell apart. Or rather exploded. Now there is an opportunity for other desktops to promote their cross-platform compatibility as a (so to speak) selling point. > THAT is my problem with systemd. It's mandating a $#!?load of policy and > dependencies with largly undocumented APIs. It is an odd move, I entirely agree. I am somewhat mystified that it is thriving so much when it's relatively immature code, wildly controversial and widely hated. Most mainstream distros have adopted it. I don't get it. I also hear that it's not well-documented, that they're adding a lot of functionality of questionable relevance to its core function, that there's little democratic decision making, etc. etc. I am aware of the problems, or at least of some of them. And yet... the sky is not falling. Most big distros have moved to it. They still work. The apps still work. Some people are saying "OK, I didn't like it, but I learned to use it and actually it's pretty good." And there are still choices. There are other distros; there are other Unixes. This /increases/ the choice, it promotes adoption (or creation) of minority distros, it is helping the cause of FreeBSD. Meanwhile, for all that it violates tradition, it brings benefits to Linux. Overall, I think it's a win. >> Today, it's mainly an x86 OS for servers and an ARM OS for >> smartphones, with a few weirdos using it for workstations. So stop it > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Wow! Nice insult there. Care to add more? :-) I am one of those weirdoes, you know, and I also used to work for Red Hat. My laptops and one of my Raspberry Pis run Ubuntu. > And for the record, I still use Linux as (one) of my desktops machines. Used to. Then I bought a cheap used Mac mini. > And you want an older Mac ... why? System 9 is dead. Gone on. Pining > for the fjords! Move on, man! Move on! Good question. I have no /need/ and little /use/ for one. But hey, I'm on a classic computing list for a reason. I like them. It's a hobby. But overall, I'm glad Apple bought NeXT and got NeXTstep as well as Steve Jobs back. I'm happy that the company is strong today. It makes good products, some of which I like and use, some I don't but they've influenced other products that I like and use. Much as I loved BeOS, if Apple had bought Be, it'd be long dead. > It was SysV with kickass graphics hardware. Suns were BSD (at the time, > prior to Solaris) with not-so-great graphics hardware. That's pretty much > the difference. Hmmm. OK, thanks for the clarification. I am enough of a lightweight Unix type that I can't generally tell BSD from SysV, so I think I would not have cared. > -spc (Never did like Suns, but then again, I was spoiled by using SGIs) :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 09:09:56 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:09:56 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <902563183.28987.1466108752030.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <902563183.28987.1466108752030.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <902563183.28987.1466108752030.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 16 June 2016 at 22:25, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > I suspect he was referring to Inferno when talking about the > byte code executables. Correct. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 09:14:50 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:14:50 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <201606162210.SAA17268@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> <201606162210.SAA17268@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 17 June 2016 at 00:10, Mouse wrote: >>> No, it's not an old-fashioned simplistic Unix utility. Hey, >>> newsflash, neither is GNOME, neither is KDE. > > And if either of those were being made as central to the system as > systemd is, there would be a similar outcry against them. > > The problem is not that systemd is bloated, or buggy, or badly > designed. The problem is that it's bloated, buggy, badly designed - > _and_ is being made very, very central to even rudimentary operation of > the OS. > > Well, that, and that a whole lot of users perceive it as being rammed > down their metaphorical throats, something that raises hackles at the > best of times. That's a fair point, and I totally accept it. OTOH, arguably, so is Linux itself. In contrast: Many favour the BSDs because they apparently "feel cohesive", "like one piece of software written by one team", as opposed to... Huh. Googled for the quote, found, er, myself. Weird. ? Friends of mine who are the sort of Unix beardie who lives at the command line and sneers at graphical desktops tell me that BSD feels more like an integrated whole than Linux: apparently, they say, you can tell that everything came from a single team and one source, rather than Linux's "three thousand unrelated bits of code flying in close formation". Me, I wouldn't know; all I care about is that commands like /dmesg/ and /top/ and /fdisk/ do what I expect, which is more than they do on Solaris, say. ? And yet, now that significant chunks of the Linux underpinnings are being combined into one purpose-written close-knit chunk, designed by a single team, the same sort of people that praise *BSD for its conceptual unity are harshly damning the thing bringing comparable unity to Linux. Odd, that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 17 10:12:08 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: media and software In-Reply-To: <030701d1c83c$66b4c150$341e43f0$@com> References: <030701d1c83c$66b4c150$341e43f0$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2016, Electronics Plus wrote: > Software, there are a LOT of MS Developer CDs from 2011 and much earlier, I'd be interested in the MSDN CDs. tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 10:15:43 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:15:43 -0400 Subject: media and software In-Reply-To: References: <030701d1c83c$66b4c150$341e43f0$@com> Message-ID: I'd be interested in Solaris/Sun CDs Todd Killingsworth On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:12 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2016, Electronics Plus wrote: > > Software, there are a LOT of MS Developer CDs from 2011 and much earlier, >> > > I'd be interested in the MSDN CDs. > > tnx. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 17 10:36:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Monitor refresh rate query Message-ID: <20160617153614.7077518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I'm using an old (very old! :-) laptop for a console for some of my computers. The built-in screen on it is this miserable 800x600 thing (I said it was _old_ :-), so I'm trying to hook up an old 15" display (of which I have tons) and run it at 1024x768 at least (the highest resolution the old display hardware in the laptop will support). However... The first couple of LCD's I plugged in, they worked fine, but when I went to change from 800x600 to 1024x768, I got error messages about 'can't handle that display format' (or words to that effect). Nothing about what parameter was out of bounds, alas. Finally I found one that _did_ give me the numbers, and it said the retrace was 35.6 Khz / 44 Hz. OK, looking at some specs, it makes sense those LCD monitors didn't work - 44 Hz vertical retrace (which I gather is the same as the refresh rate, in things like 1024x768/60Hz - sorry about the newbiesh questions, but I want to make sure I'm not making a bad assumption) is _below_ the input specs on them. (Although why the refresh rate on an _LCD_ would have a lower bound that high doesn't make sense to me - so the screen updates less often, what's the problem? It's not like a CRT, where it could cause flicker.) So I finally found an old CRT monitor that worked - but now I have another problem! It reports the video as being 35.6 Khz / 87 Hz! Which makes me worry, because I'm not sure that particular monitor can handle an 87 Hz refresh. (Parenthetically, what exactly is the mechanism that causes damage if you run an old CRT monitor at too high a refresh rate? I assume the excessive speed generates too much heat somewhere, and causes transistors to fail, or something like that?) Anyway, back to the monitor - I'm wondering if that monitor is reporting a bad number on the vertical retrace, and in fact it actually is 44 Hz? Because I found this equation to calulate the vertical retrace frequency from i) the horizontal retrace frequency, and ii) the number of lines. So I plug 35.6 Khz (which agrees with the other monitor, note) and 768 into that formula, and get... 44 Hz! So is there some bizarre interlace mode, or something, that could legitimately cause confusion over the vertical retrace? Or is the second monitor just confused? I tried to look up the video controller chip (a Cirrus CL-GD 7543 'Viking'), to see if it could even _do_ 88 Hz, but I was unable to find any documentation about it online. Also, if it really is 44 Hz, can anyone point me at an old LCD display that will handle that? (The CRT I'm currently using - another one that supposedly handles up to 100 Hz vertical retrace - takes up too much room! And there's no point getting something new - and larger - since the machine won't do anything past 1024x768 anyway.) Noel From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jun 17 10:38:31 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:38:31 -0700 Subject: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d1c6f9$cbf73ff0$63e5bfd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: This demands pictures !!! -pete On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > > I sent mail to Erik and guess what? The typewriter is still available! > Thanks for the tip! :D > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 > > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:33:53 +0100 > > > > Some one had one in the Netherlands about 4 years ago... > > > > >Erik W. vier321 at hotmail.com via classiccmp.org > > >26/06/2012 > > >to cctalk > > > > > > > > >Hi Folks, > > > I have an original IBM model B computer controlled typewriter witha > lot > > of spares and maintenance manuals available for sale ortrade. This > stuff is > > > impossible to find. As used on the IBM 1620,DEC PDP-1 and many other > > computers of the era. Useful if you'remaintaining one of those or want > to > > build a > > > replica/simulator. > > > Respond to me directly as I'm not a member of this list. > > > Thanks, Erik > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Johannes > > > Thelen > > > Sent: 15 June 2016 12:20 > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Searching an IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got just another jewel to my collection, IBM 1620 Model I (G level). > > Machine > > > has all internals intact, but table top and the typewriter are missing > > (probably > > > doorway was too narrow back then, parts removed and forgotten somewhere > > > on the journey... ) That table top can be made again, but I would need > > that right > > > model typewriter. Anyone have a spare..? > > > Also I have another problem with it, memory is suffering wire corrosion > > (like > > > these all does). So this can be a looooong shot, but if someone have a > > functional > > > memory or just core array, I'm interested to buy or swap it to > something. > > > Photos can be found my blog, link below. > > > Thaaaaanks! > > > > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > > > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > > > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jun 17 13:49:15 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:49:15 +0200 Subject: Monitor refresh rate query In-Reply-To: <20160617153614.7077518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160617153614.7077518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160617184915.GA19014@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:36:14AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: [...] > (Parenthetically, what exactly is the mechanism that causes damage if you run > an old CRT monitor at too high a refresh rate? I assume the excessive speed > generates too much heat somewhere, and causes transistors to fail, or > something like that?) To generate high voltage DC such as that necessary to emit an electron beam, one typically feeds an AC signal into a voltage multiplier circuit. Textbooks will show some nice clean circuits which multiply by a fixed integer, but real-world components don't read textbooks and the output voltage also varies by frequency. If one is building a fixed-frequency display (e.g. a TV), one can cut corners and save a few bob by recycling the line output frequency (~15kHz for both PAL and NTSC) to generate this AC. So if the line output frequency goes up, so can the beam voltage, possibly to dangerous levels. [...] > So is there some bizarre interlace mode, or something, that could > legitimately cause confusion over the vertical retrace? Or is the second > monitor just confused? Both are correct. There are 44 (rounded) frames per second, and 87 (rounded) fields per second. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jun 17 14:27:32 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:27:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Monitor refresh rate query Message-ID: <20160617192732.A732718C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Corlett Hi, thanks for helping me out here! > Both are correct. There are 44 (rounded) frames per second, and 87 > (rounded) fields per second. "fields per second" refers to interlaced displays, right? So the vertical retrace frequence there is the 87 Hz number (since you get a vertical retrace after only 768/2 lines are displayed). Or am I confused? Although if I'm right so far, I'm puzzled as to how one could drive both interlaced and non-interlaced monitors off the same video signal - wouldn't the interlaced one need a video signal which has 'odd lines, then a vertical retrace, then even lines, then a vertical retrace'? Anyway, so which one is the one which is the number to look at when considering if the refresh rate is so high it might be dangerous to an old CRT monitor? I would assume it's the 'fields per second', since that's the frequency of the vertical retrace? E.g. my HP M50 manual says "Setting the screen resolution/refresh rate combination higher than 1024x768 at 60 Hz can damage the display." Even though the same document lists the vertical frequency range as "50-100 Hz"! Noel From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 17 14:31:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:31:12 -0700 Subject: Monitor refresh rate query In-Reply-To: <20160617153614.7077518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160617153614.7077518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57645000.7010904@sydex.com> On 06/17/2016 08:36 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > (Parenthetically, what exactly is the mechanism that causes damage if > you run an old CRT monitor at too high a refresh rate? I assume the > excessive speed generates too much heat somewhere, and causes > transistors to fail, or something like that?) It's not the refresh rate that will kill things, but the horizontal frequency. The high voltage in most CRT monitors (and TVs) is developed from the scanning signal via a high-voltage "flyboack" transformer that serves dual purposes--it matches the the horizontal deflection coils to the output transistor (or tube), may develop some intermediate voltages for driving the various CRT elements and also develops the high voltage the CRT anode requires (after rectification). FBTs are customarily designed for a specific range of scanning frequencies, give or take. So it's usually safe to operate a FBT circuit that's been designed for 15.575 KHz (standard NTSC frequency) at 18 KHz or so (difference between IBM CGA and MDA frequencies), though it may take some tweaking of components. One gets into trouble with monitors where design shortcuts have been taken. For example, the IBM 5151 monochrome monitor for use with the MDA has no horizontal oscillator--it uses the pulse train generated by the 6845 CRTC to develop its horizontal scan. While this eliminates the need for a "synchroguide" type of setup, where an oscillator "locks onto" a sync signal, it's also dangerous. Normally, a too-high sync rate would simply cause the monitor's horizontal oscillator to fall out of sync (that's when you see the diagonal bars forming across the screen). But the 5151 monochrome display has no oscillator and simply follows what's given. Ultimately, if taken too far, the voltage in the FBT secondary exceeds the ratings of the winding insulation; an arc develops between windings and the FBT self-destructs, sometimes taking the horizontal output transistor with it. I smoked one or two FBTs while developing SIMCGA a long time ago. I think I may even still have a nice 14" monitor with a defunct FBT kicking around from those days. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 16:19:43 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:19:43 -0700 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6FA37089-9B1E-4FAD-99F5-02CBF15ECB49@gmail.com> > Subassemblies (like PCBs) have part numbers with 2 groups of 5 > digits. The first group is the model number of the instrument that > first used that subassembly, padded with leading zeros. So for > example the CPU data path (ALU and registers) board in an > HP9830 is an 09810-66514, as it was first used in the HP9810. > > -tony Many thanks Tony, I didn't know about the "model number of the first instrument that used the assembly minus the zeroes", this explains a lot of things! Marc From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Fri Jun 17 18:22:00 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 09:22:00 +1000 Subject: media and software In-Reply-To: <030701d1c83c$66b4c150$341e43f0$@com> References: <030701d1c83c$66b4c150$341e43f0$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > The age runs from reels of tape (9 track? Dated 1989 and earlier) to LTO4. Have you had interest in the 9-track tapes as yet? I would coordinate (contribute to postage) with someone so they can be saved and inspected. From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Jun 17 19:36:26 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 01:36:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > Oh, man, that brings back memories. Trying to bang Linux onto a 386SX-16 with > 4 Meg RAM and some puny little hard drive ... My first NAT box! It was pretty > excruciating to use, LOL. I bet the throughput could be figured in kpps... ;) I had an experimental early Linux Ethernet bridge installation on a 386SX-16 PC with 2MB of RAM IIRC and 5 NE2000 clones (as many as there were ISA slots left after filling in an HGC adapter for the console and a multi-I/O adapter for the hard disk), driving a network of some 200 PCs. The (non-mainline-Linux yet) bridge module was a bit too experimental back then in that it didn't do MAC address ageing/purging, which drove people angry as they sometimes moved their PCs between network segments and lost connectivity to other segments. The advantage however was the bridge didn't lock up, unlike DOS `kbridge' software previously used, which did it frequently, driving even more people angry. Somewhat unexpectedly bridging performed very smoothly, however the load from frame passing between the primitive NE2000 interfaces was so high that there was a multiple-second console echo latency observed when typing characters! Maciej From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jun 17 19:53:56 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 19:53:56 -0500 Subject: media and software In-Reply-To: References: <030701d1c83c$66b4c150$341e43f0$@com> Message-ID: <059001d1c8fb$e4d50fd0$ae7f2f70$@com> No one has asked for them yet. Some were in very poor shape, broken reels with tape falling off, so I discarded those. On others the reels are intact and the tape has not been exposed. Any info on these is supposed to be scrubbed, since the backups contain proprietary info. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nigel Williams Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 6:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: media and software On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > The age runs from reels of tape (9 track? Dated 1989 and earlier) to LTO4. Have you had interest in the 9-track tapes as yet? I would coordinate (contribute to postage) with someone so they can be saved and inspected. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 21:57:07 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:57:07 -0600 Subject: Mystery HP 1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <002401d1c779$af352140$0d9f63c0$@gmail.com> <000301d1c77b$479f6bb0$d6de4310$@classiccmp.org> <004501d1c78e$2cba5ef0$862f1cd0$@gmail.com> <03ab01d1c792$1f8a1230$5e9e3690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 11:08 PM, tony duell wrote: > Subassemblies (like PCBs) have part numbers with 2 groups of 5 > digits. The first group is the model number of the instrument that > first used that subassembly, padded with leading zeros. So for > example the CPU data path (ALU and registers) board in an > HP9830 is an 09810-66514, as it was first used in the HP9810. On some early HP gear (1960s), the subassemblies and model-specific parts have a 4x5 or 4x4 part number, with the base model number as the first part, rather than the later 5x5. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sat Jun 18 00:32:55 2016 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 05:32:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? In-Reply-To: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1018924927.8746959.1466227975609.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, >I recently got a bunch of boards from somebody who was either not able to tell me where they were from. >The boards seem to be unibus-based with numbers starting with X. I neither came across these before, nor could find any information in the web about it: > >Type, P/N , Description >X029, 5013132B, AUC interconnect >X022, 5012197C, unibuswindow >X021, 5012181C, CD ROM control (did that ever exist for unibus?) >X020, 5012180B, data path > >Two 16K mos memory modules M7847 came with the set. > Thanks to everybody who tried to help figuring out from what installation these DEC boards with Unibus-type connecction are. I'm somehow amazed that there seem to be some board types from DEC around that seem pretty much unknown. I also didn't find any information in the DEC part number catalogs on bitsavers. I confirm that the X-type numbers (x020, X029 etc) are found on the metal etches of the boards. Anyway, I will keep the photos of the boards at the below link. Maybe somebody who steps over it someday can tell us what these boards are from :) http://www.digitalheritage.de/other/dec_mystery_boards/ Thanks again to the list for your help so far on this, Pierre From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sat Jun 18 01:23:48 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 06:23:48 +0000 Subject: media and software In-Reply-To: <059001d1c8fb$e4d50fd0$ae7f2f70$@com> References: <030701d1c83c$66b4c150$341e43f0$@com> , <059001d1c8fb$e4d50fd0$ae7f2f70$@com> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF7CDD6@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi there! I would be interested in the AIX media, and any AIX-related discs. I am also keenly interested in the 9-tracks, and potentially newer tape cartridges if it's IBM stuff. Thank you! ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Electronics Plus [sales at elecplus.com] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 5:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: media and software No one has asked for them yet. Some were in very poor shape, broken reels with tape falling off, so I discarded those. On others the reels are intact and the tape has not been exposed. Any info on these is supposed to be scrubbed, since the backups contain proprietary info. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nigel Williams Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 6:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: media and software On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > The age runs from reels of tape (9 track? Dated 1989 and earlier) to LTO4. Have you had interest in the 9-track tapes as yet? I would coordinate (contribute to postage) with someone so they can be saved and inspected. From spc at conman.org Sat Jun 18 02:17:54 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 03:17:54 -0400 Subject: thinking of the "ultimate" retro x86 PCs - what bits to seek/keep ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160618071754.GB25988@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Maciej W. Rozycki once stated: > On Thu, 2 Jun 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > > > Oh, man, that brings back memories. Trying to bang Linux onto a 386SX-16 with > > 4 Meg RAM and some puny little hard drive ... My first NAT box! It was pretty > > excruciating to use, LOL. I bet the throughput could be figured in kpps... ;) > > I had an experimental early Linux Ethernet bridge installation on a > 386SX-16 PC with 2MB of RAM IIRC and 5 NE2000 clones (as many as there > were ISA slots left after filling in an HGC adapter for the console and a > multi-I/O adapter for the hard disk), driving a network of some 200 PCs. I managed to install Linux on a 486 based Laptop with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive. It was ... interesting. Some of my notes at the time: http://boston.conman.org/1999/12/13.4 http://boston.conman.org/1999/12/15.1 http://boston.conman.org/2000/01/06.2 I don't recall if I had networking (of any kind) installed or not. But I suspect I still have that laptop in storage ... -spc From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 18 04:03:18 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:03:18 +0100 Subject: Set of mystery DEC boards: who can help me identifying these? In-Reply-To: <1018924927.8746959.1466227975609.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <350934368.1185349.1464432689597.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1018924927.8746959.1466227975609.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6653564a-929f-2df3-df4b-f6d4bb5cc073@btinternet.com> On 18/06/2016 06:32, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hello all, > >> I recently got a bunch of boards from somebody who was either not able to tell me where they were from. >> The boards seem to be unibus-based with numbers starting with X. I neither came across these before, nor could find any information in the web about it: >> >> Type, P/N , Description >> X029, 5013132B, AUC interconnect >> X022, 5012197C, unibuswindow >> X021, 5012181C, CD ROM control (did that ever exist for unibus?) >> X020, 5012180B, data path >> >> Two 16K mos memory modules M7847 came with the set. >> > > Thanks to everybody who tried to help figuring out from what installation these DEC boards with Unibus-type connecction are. I'm somehow amazed that there seem to be some board types from DEC around that seem pretty much unknown. I also didn't find any information in the DEC part number catalogs on bitsavers. I confirm that the X-type numbers (x020, X029 etc) are found on the metal etches of the boards. > > Anyway, I will keep the photos of the boards at the below link. Maybe somebody who steps over it someday can tell us what these boards are from :) > > > http://www.digitalheritage.de/other/dec_mystery_boards/ > > Thanks again to the list for your help so far on this, > Pierre * Here's a ref to a unibus window But they are quad modules Digital-pdp11 Peripherals Handbook (1975*) ... *Digital* to Analog Subsystem, ... *UNIBUS* Link, DA11-B. *UNIBUS Window*, DA11-F. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 18 05:22:19 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 11:22:19 +0100 Subject: The Great TK revival Message-ID: <513fa71d-706b-1695-7f55-4e66874af340@btinternet.com> Hi The great TK revival continues apace. There's a TK50 in my VAX 4000 running really well. Purrs like a cat I have TK70 in the RT-11 (11/83 QED) Machine that also runs. TK70 should read the TK50 tapes. It tries but complains about cant read the directory. So whats a common format I can write on a TK50 tape in a TK50 Drive (VMS) then take it over to the RT-11 box and have it read it.? Where is all this going? Well I need to end up with RSTS on an 11/83. So a bootable TK50 with RSTS install files on it is the goal. Meanwhile transfer by tape is useful. Rod From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sat Jun 18 06:19:54 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:19:54 +0300 Subject: AIX from Motorola Message-ID: Hello, Anyone have Motorola based AIX installation cds at least 4.1.4r4 or newer? Regards, Plamen From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Jun 18 11:46:14 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (cctalk at snarc.net) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:46:14 -0600 Subject: VCFed auction update Message-ID: <38fbdcd8f1b659d9b36db4c3b6395e8f.squirrel@box873.bluehost.com> Apple II (Rev. 4) sold for $4,056. Sol-20 sold for $2,878. Both were clean, autographed, and working. It is likely that bidders reached a little deeper because we are a non-profit. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jun 18 12:35:44 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:35:44 -0700 Subject: VCFed auction update In-Reply-To: <38fbdcd8f1b659d9b36db4c3b6395e8f.squirrel@box873.bluehost.com> References: <38fbdcd8f1b659d9b36db4c3b6395e8f.squirrel@box873.bluehost.com> Message-ID: <5365DE2B-F360-4352-A447-42A3D72FA708@nf6x.net> > On Jun 18, 2016, at 09:46, cctalk at snarc.net wrote: > > Apple II (Rev. 4) sold for $4,056. Sol-20 sold for $2,878. Both were > clean, autographed, and working. It is likely that bidders reached a > little deeper because we are a non-profit. > Awesome! I hope you folks can do some really cool stuff with the funds, and the buyers of those two machines should be really excited, too. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From lists at sk2.org Sat Jun 18 14:11:24 2016 From: lists at sk2.org (Stephen Kitt) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:11:24 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: <5761AC98.4060403@oryx.us> <201606152347.TAA14469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160618211124.7bf05d6c@heffalump.sk2.org> On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:46:41 +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > On 16 June 2016 at 01:47, Mouse wrote: > > So are Linux and BSD, right up until you start caring about the _legal_ > > definition of UNIX, which is why they call themselves as "based on > > UNIX" or "UNIX-like" or the like. But (IMO, of course) the legal sense > > is the only one in which they aren't UNIX. > > I think RHEL has passed certification now, FWIW. Not as far as I'm aware; the full list of certified UNIX operating systems is on http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ (OS X, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, K-UX). Regards, Stephen From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sat Jun 18 15:43:13 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:43:13 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <1466282593.4068.29.camel@agj.net> fre 2016-06-17 klockan 16:09 +0200 skrev Liam Proven: > On 16 June 2016 at 22:09, Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > >> It's a modern init. Most of panic is just headless running around. No, > >> it's not an old-fashioned simplistic Unix utility. Hey, newsflash, > >> neither is GNOME, neither is KDE. Neither is much of modern Unix. > > > > I'm not a fan of systemd, but it's not because SysV init is better, but > > because of the increasing scope of systemd. > > What i don't like about systemd is: the fud about how easy it is to write systemd unit files vs old shell script init.d/ditos . RH started in earnest to fix NFS for el7 but things still occasionally go tits up (i have done a fair amount of work with centos7.) NFS started to work well in Fedora 20/21. Writing correct unit files for something as complicated as NFS and especially if running in an split NFS3/NFS4 environment with Kerberos-authenticated id mapping between server and client is NOT simple. Systemd doesn't ease the complexity of describing dependencies, and i also have a suspicion that the systemd design wasn't enough well defined for something else to happen (good and consistent design results in better documentation) - so the users got to have to do a bit of frustrating trial-and-error while writing their own unit files. > > > Oh, and because of the say systemd works, it takes over cgroup management. > > The Linux kernel provides mechanism, not policy, but now, we have systemd > > forcing a cgroup policy on everything. Okay, perhaps systemd is the first > > program to actually *use* cgroups but if at some point in the future you > > want to play around with it, well ... sorry. systemd is in control there. > > Which also affects something which i'm working with now namely cfengine, cgroup's requires cfengine's performer cf-agent if it wan't to rerun cf-serverd (the policy file server in cfengine, but cf-serverd has other usage too) to start cf-serverd via systemctl enable/start. > > THAT is my problem with systemd. It's mandating a $#!?load of policy and > > dependencies with largly undocumented APIs. > > It is an odd move, I entirely agree. I am somewhat mystified that it > is thriving so much when it's relatively immature code, wildly > controversial and widely hated. Most mainstream distros have adopted > it. I don't get it. GNOME's adoption of systemd helps a bit. > I also hear that it's not well-documented, that they're adding a lot > of functionality of questionable relevance to its core function, that > there's little democratic decision making, etc. etc. > > I am aware of the problems, or at least of some of them. systemd-timesyncd is an example especially the assertion from the systemd developers that SNTP is good enough for almost everyone except (S)NTP servers. It isn't good enough if the host is an virtual machine on esv4, that really requires something which can handle clock drift in a sane way ie ntpd. Yes i'm aware of the CVEs regarding authentication keys in ntpd. One functionality of questionable (or not so much) functionality is the hails and whistles socket activation. IN the cause of NFS it would require a new network protocol. The CFengine developers has discussed using socket activation for cf-serverd but it is really infeasible. It would basically force them to maintain two completely different cf-serverd implementations one for UNIX,systemd-less Linux and Windows and one for systemd-ified Linux. Systemd-style socket activation in new applications/servers is an possibility if a hard dependency on systemd is ok. From chd at chdickman.com Sat Jun 18 21:50:44 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:50:44 -0400 Subject: DEC's first use of PROMs Message-ID: Well maybe not, but the first in the 23-001A1 sequence of part numbers was used in the PDP-8/e EAE. I was troubleshooting a problem with an EAE in which the step counter wouldn't load. There are 2 fusible PROMs in the circuit and I noticed they are 23-001A1 and 23-002A1. Maybe there is a 23-000A1. From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 22:44:52 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:44:52 -0700 Subject: ISO: Terak 8510/a Keyboard and Monitor Message-ID: <57661534.2060501@gmail.com> Hi all -- At long last my Terak 8510/a is working again! I'd repaired the power supply a couple of years back but the system simply would not behave properly. I traced it down to some very unreliable IC sockets (they were not high-quality when they were new, and the damp environment this particular machine spent several years in before I got it did nothing to help). I finally replaced about 40 sockets with some nice turned-pin ones last week, and now the system is up and running and passing the System Acceptance Tests with flying colors. I do not have a keyboard or monitor for this system, and while it's pretty easy to fabricate replacements (the video's just standard composite, and the keyboard is an 8-bit parallel ASCII keyboard with a few extra special keys) I'd love to find a set of originals. If anyone has any spares in any condition, please drop me a line. (I'm also interested in tracking down an original single-density floppy controller just on the off chance...) Thanks! - Josh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 19 09:51:07 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 10:51:07 -0400 Subject: The Great TK revival In-Reply-To: <513fa71d-706b-1695-7f55-4e66874af340@btinternet.com> References: <513fa71d-706b-1695-7f55-4e66874af340@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5766B15B.1020307@compsys.to> >On Saturday, June 18th, 2016 at 11:22:19 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > The great TK revival continues apace. > > There's a TK50 in my VAX 4000 running really well. Purrs like a cat > > I have TK70 in the RT-11 (11/83 QED) Machine that also runs. > > TK70 should read the TK50 tapes. It tries but complains about cant > read the directory. > > So whats a common format I can write on a TK50 tape in a TK50 Drive > (VMS) > > then take it over to the RT-11 box and have it read it.? > > Where is all this going? Well I need to end up with RSTS on an 11/83. > > So a bootable TK50 with RSTS install files on it is the goal. > > Meanwhile transfer by tape is useful. Another method of checking any data on any physical device is to use the RT-11 program, DUMP.SAV, which will display the individual blocks in the case of a disk drive and the individual records in the case of a tape. Unfortunately, my PDP-11 hardware is not available right now. But I was able to use Ersatz-11 to perform the same operations. Under RT-11: INIT MU0:/NOQU DUMP/TERM MU0: Three 80 byte records and 4 tape marks are displayed as in: First 80 byte record Second 80 byte record TAPE MARK TAPE MARK Third 80 byte record TAPE MARK TAPE MARK If you can display the above data when you INIT the TK70 media on the PDP-11/83 under RT-11, but can't read a TK50 media produced under VMS, then perhaps there may be a hardware problem. Let us know what you are able to see. Then we can help some more. Jerome Fine From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 19 11:11:50 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:11:50 +0100 Subject: The Great TK revival In-Reply-To: <5766B15B.1020307@compsys.to> References: <513fa71d-706b-1695-7f55-4e66874af340@btinternet.com> <5766B15B.1020307@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4d3c7cee-29c1-e24a-b7f6-c4fe76ad182f@btinternet.com> On 19/06/2016 15:51, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >On Saturday, June 18th, 2016 at 11:22:19 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Hi >> >> The great TK revival continues apace. >> >> There's a TK50 in my VAX 4000 running really well. Purrs like a cat >> >> I have TK70 in the RT-11 (11/83 QED) Machine that also runs. >> >> TK70 should read the TK50 tapes. It tries but complains about cant >> read the directory. >> >> So whats a common format I can write on a TK50 tape in a TK50 Drive >> (VMS) >> >> then take it over to the RT-11 box and have it read it.? >> >> Where is all this going? Well I need to end up with RSTS on an 11/83. >> >> So a bootable TK50 with RSTS install files on it is the goal. >> >> Meanwhile transfer by tape is useful. > > Another method of checking any data on any physical device > is to use the RT-11 program, DUMP.SAV, which will display > the individual blocks in the case of a disk drive and the individual > records in the case of a tape. > > Unfortunately, my PDP-11 hardware is not available right now. > But I was able to use Ersatz-11 to perform the same operations. > > Under RT-11: > INIT MU0:/NOQU > DUMP/TERM MU0: > > Three 80 byte records and 4 tape marks are displayed as in: > > First 80 byte record > Second 80 byte record > TAPE MARK > TAPE MARK > Third 80 byte record > TAPE MARK > TAPE MARK > > If you can display the above data when you INIT the TK70 > media on the PDP-11/83 under RT-11, but can't read a TK50 > media produced under VMS, then perhaps there may be a hardware > problem. > > Let us know what you are able to see. Then we can help some more. > > Jerome Fine Messages getting out of order. I'm now at a TK70 drive (and controller) both ends It looks like both drives and controllers work on both systems. The VAX end reads TK50 tapes and directories. The 11/83 (QED) system end does not. I'm off to look at VMS exchange with a view to producing something the RT-11 end can read,. I'm sure there's an RT-11 TCP/IP around I have enough parts to extend the network from three PC's plus four vaxes and an alpha by adding: 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 (QED) , 11/84 and 11/94 By using Decmates and Rainbows as terminals they all get a console. Rod From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 11:40:25 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:40:25 -0400 Subject: The Great TK revival In-Reply-To: <4d3c7cee-29c1-e24a-b7f6-c4fe76ad182f@btinternet.com> References: <513fa71d-706b-1695-7f55-4e66874af340@btinternet.com> <5766B15B.1020307@compsys.to> <4d3c7cee-29c1-e24a-b7f6-c4fe76ad182f@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 19 June 2016 at 12:11, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I'm sure there's an RT-11 TCP/IP around I have enough parts to extend the If you were unaware of it, here is an (the?) RT-11 TCP/IP package: Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 19 12:21:57 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:21:57 +0100 Subject: The Great TK revival In-Reply-To: References: <513fa71d-706b-1695-7f55-4e66874af340@btinternet.com> <5766B15B.1020307@compsys.to> <4d3c7cee-29c1-e24a-b7f6-c4fe76ad182f@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 19/06/2016 17:40, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 19 June 2016 at 12:11, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> I'm sure there's an RT-11 TCP/IP around I have enough parts to extend the > If you were unaware of it, here is an (the?) RT-11 TCP/IP package: > > > > Cheers, > Christian Thank you ... Rod From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jun 20 02:18:49 2016 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:18:49 +0200 Subject: Monitor refresh rate query In-Reply-To: <20160617153614.7077518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160617153614.7077518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9d7db26d-3907-ea88-aa95-efc8d47ddc12@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 17.06.16 um 17:36 schrieb Noel Chiappa: > The first couple of LCD's I plugged in, [...] > Finally I found one that _did_ give me the numbers, > and it said the retrace was 35.6 Khz / 44 Hz. [...] > So I finally found an old CRT monitor that worked - but now I have another > problem! It reports the video as being 35.6 Khz / 87 Hz! Sounds like an interlaced video mode. No surprise that the LCD can't do this. Interlaceing was common for 1024x768 XGA back in the days. -- tsch??, Jochen From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 04:35:03 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 04:35:03 -0500 Subject: Any extra DEC monitors in Europe? Message-ID: I have a friend looking for 2 DEC VRC21-KA monitors in Europe. I have one here, but will pack it only as a last resort. If you have one of two you want to sell or trade, please let me know off list. Also where you are located. Thanks, Paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jun 20 06:12:35 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Monitor refresh rate query Message-ID: <20160620111235.87F4F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'm puzzled as to how one could drive both interlaced and > non-interlaced monitors off the same video signal - wouldn't the > interlaced one need a video signal which has 'odd lines, then a > vertical retrace, then even lines, then a vertical retrace'? So to sort of answer my own question, interlaced and non-interlaced video signals are indeed different. It turn out that 1024x768 was defined by IBM as XGA, and it was originally an interlaced format - although a non- interlaced version was done later. So my laptop quite possibly really is producing interlaced video... Although how a monitor is supposed to tell whether a signal is interlaced, or non-interlaced, is not clear - there's certainly no pin on the VGA connector which says so! :-) > Anyway, so which one is the one which is the number to look at when > considering if the refresh rate is so high it might be dangerous to an > old CRT monitor? > E.g. my HP M50 manual says "Setting the screen resolution/refresh rate > combination higher than 1024x768 at 60 Hz can damage the display." Since the monitor I'm using is called an "Ultra VGA 1024", I'm going to assume it can handle 1042x768, and just stop worrying about it... If it melts down the monitor, it melts down the monitor! :-) > From: Jochen Kunz > Sounds like an interlaced video mode. No surprise that the LCD can't do > this. Yes, as soon as I realized it probably really was interlaced video, it became obvious why none of my LCD monitors would display it. Noel From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Jun 20 06:43:34 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:43:34 +0200 Subject: Monitor refresh rate query In-Reply-To: <20160620111235.87F4F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160620111235.87F4F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160620114334.GA3025@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 07:12:35AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: [...] > Although how a monitor is supposed to tell whether a signal is interlaced, or > non-interlaced, is not clear - there's certainly no pin on the VGA connector > which says so! :-) It's encoded in the sync signal. The timings are tweaked such that the beam of a dumb CRT will be pushed down a half-line on alternate fields. From grumpyx at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 07:15:00 2016 From: grumpyx at gmail.com (Grumpyx) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:15:00 -0400 Subject: Eckert - Faster, Faster; books in general In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can read it online: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000476266 On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Brian Walenz wrote: > Is there an electronic copy of this floating around? My (ex-library) copy > is missing all of chapter 11, "What is there to calculate?. (And the last > page of the previous chapter). The pages weren't ripped out, they were > missing when it was bound. Very annoying, I enjoyed the book right up > until it crashed, so to speak. > > Two, also ex-library, copies are listed on Amazon, and I hesitate to get > another copy with the same problem. There are others, of course, at > outrageous prices. Or maybe I don't realize the significance of '1st > edition, not ex-library'. > > Just to make any discussion a bit more interesting, what would you suggest > along similar lines? The two giant books on IBM (detailing "pre-360", and > "360") were quite fun too. > > bri > From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Mon Jun 20 08:20:35 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:20:35 +0000 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Hi, I own PRM-85 boards for my HP-85 and 86 machines. While they are very useful extension modules for these computers, they lack a proper case. I hate to destroy a working interface or memory module just for the case. I read in this list that there are more people interested in such a case. So I designed a replica case for 3D printing, but did not yet try it out. I do not own a 3D printer and the commercial services calculate between $20 to $100 for one shell (upper/lower). This is a bit expensive for some trials, as I expect that the 3D design would need some iterative refinement to obtain a "perfect" case. So: if someone owning a 3D printer and a PRM-85 board is interested in helping me to refine the design by making a test print I could supply the STL files for upper and lower shells. As a "thank-you" I would expect feedback to improve the design. Regards, Martin Martin {.} Hepperle {at} mh-aerotools {dot} de From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 10:15:48 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:15:48 -0300 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: Marlin, why not try to find a hackerspace in your area, they usually have 3D printers and willing to help. --- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 10:20 AM Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! Hi, I own PRM-85 boards for my HP-85 and 86 machines. While they are very useful extension modules for these computers, they lack a proper case. I hate to destroy a working interface or memory module just for the case. I read in this list that there are more people interested in such a case. So I designed a replica case for 3D printing, but did not yet try it out. I do not own a 3D printer and the commercial services calculate between $20 to $100 for one shell (upper/lower). This is a bit expensive for some trials, as I expect that the 3D design would need some iterative refinement to obtain a "perfect" case. So: if someone owning a 3D printer and a PRM-85 board is interested in helping me to refine the design by making a test print I could supply the STL files for upper and lower shells. As a "thank-you" I would expect feedback to improve the design. Regards, Martin Martin {.} Hepperle {at} mh-aerotools {dot} de From nekonoko at mac.com Mon Jun 20 10:34:11 2016 From: nekonoko at mac.com (Pete Plank) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:34:11 -0700 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> > On Jun 20, 2016, at 6:20 AM, Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de wrote: > > I read in this list that there are more people interested in such a case. I don?t have a 3D printer either, but I?m on board for one when they?re ready to go - my PRM-85 is still in its anti-static bag. Pete From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 10:41:23 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:41:23 +0200 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines Message-ID: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html Found via: http://www.osnews.com/story/29261/Xerox_Alto_restoring_the_legendary_1970s_GUI_computer There are 2 videos up so far, with disassemblies that may interest CCmpers. Some people from the list are involved, including Al Kossow, but I haven't seen the link posted. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 20 10:51:31 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:51:31 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> I post just went up on Saturday. It's nice that both CHM and LCM folks are helping with this. On 6/20/16 8:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > > Found via: > > http://www.osnews.com/story/29261/Xerox_Alto_restoring_the_legendary_1970s_GUI_computer > > There are 2 videos up so far, with disassemblies that may interest CCmpers. > > Some people from the list are involved, including Al Kossow, but I > haven't seen the link posted. > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 20 10:53:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:53:49 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929396 http://ed-thelen.org/RestoreAlto/index.html On 6/20/16 8:51 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I post just went up on Saturday. It's nice that both CHM and LCM folks > are helping with this. > > > On 6/20/16 8:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html >> >> Found via: >> >> http://www.osnews.com/story/29261/Xerox_Alto_restoring_the_legendary_1970s_GUI_computer >> >> There are 2 videos up so far, with disassemblies that may interest CCmpers. >> >> Some people from the list are involved, including Al Kossow, but I >> haven't seen the link posted. >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jun 20 11:21:30 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 M7800 Message-ID: <20160620162130.0B60618C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel >> I will upload the content to the CHW (and add the DB9 pinouts, too). > Yes, please. OK, done; see: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_asynchronous_serial_line_pinout and it references the new: http://gunkies.org/wiki/EIA_RS-232_serial_line_interface I'd be grateful for any feedback on how I can improve the page(s) - more data to add, thinks to explain better, etc. Note: I added the DB9 pinouts, _but_ I have never made an actual DEC->DB9 cable, and am unlikely to (see below), so these have not been experimentally tested. I'm pretty sure they're right (I checked them against some online tables), but 'the difference between theory and practise', etc, etc. So if someone does make any DB9 cables from this page, and can confirm that they works, I'd be very grateful! :-) I personally don't recommend making DEC->DB9 cables. DB25P<->DB9S adaptors are cheap and easy to find on eBay, and if you make everything DB25, all you'll need are a few DB25P<->DB9S adaptors to connect to PCs, and all your other cabling activity (e.g. connecting one PDP-11 to another) will be simple, since everything will be standardized on DB25s; no having to keep two kinds of every cable. Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 20 12:40:51 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:40:51 -0500 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> Message-ID: <001001d1cb1a$e364d740$aa2e85c0$@classiccmp.org> I'll chime in as a 3rd person wanting a case for my PRM-85, and I know for sure two other listmembers (who are not the two who mentioned it just now) who will definitely want one. So.... probably 5 takers. Anyone with a 3d printer want to make one for us? J From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 12:50:21 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:50:21 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> <201606162210.SAA17268@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > And yet, now that significant chunks of the Linux underpinnings are > being combined into one purpose-written close-knit chunk, designed by a > single team, the same sort of people that praise *BSD for its conceptual > unity are harshly damning the thing bringing comparable unity to Linux. > Odd, that. It's not the same thing, IMO. People aren't slamming Linux+systemd for unifying their team (I've not even seen the harshest systemd critics mention this even in passing). They aren't upset because of the greater "conceptual unity", either. They are upset because it's breaking faith with "the unix way" (creating a giant all-consuming mega-daemon with equally heinous binary opaque supporting-crap ala journald) and going their own way (a hard right toward Bloatville with a couple of stops near Lake Clueless if you ask me), and they are, in the opinion of many, being jerks with the implementation of their planned schism. -Swift From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 13:22:08 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:22:08 -0700 Subject: General *NIX ramble thread - was Re: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? Message-ID: Changing thread title and invoking filter. Thanks, - Ian On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > And yet, now that significant chunks of the Linux underpinnings are > > being combined into one purpose-written close-knit chunk, designed by a > > single team, the same sort of people that praise *BSD for its conceptual > > unity are harshly damning the thing bringing comparable unity to Linux. > > Odd, that. > > It's not the same thing, IMO. People aren't slamming Linux+systemd for > unifying their team (I've not even seen the harshest systemd critics > mention this even in passing). They aren't upset because of the greater > "conceptual unity", either. They are upset because it's breaking faith > with "the unix way" (creating a giant all-consuming mega-daemon with > equally heinous binary opaque supporting-crap ala journald) and going > their own way (a hard right toward Bloatville with a couple of stops near > Lake Clueless if you ask me), and they are, in the opinion of many, being > jerks with the implementation of their planned schism. > > -Swift > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 20 13:31:16 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:31:16 -0500 Subject: General *NIX ramble thread - was Re: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d1cb21$ee9fbba0$cbdf32e0$@classiccmp.org> Ian wrote... ==== Changing thread title and invoking filter. ==== Thanks, duly noted. J From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 13:37:08 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:37:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <1466282593.4068.29.camel@agj.net> References: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> <1466282593.4068.29.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2016, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > What i don't like about systemd is: the fud about how easy it is to > write systemd unit files vs old shell script init.d/ditos . In most simple cases, their argument is that it's easier to write a unit file because you don't need to know shell script. However, as you point out, that all starts to fall apart when the unit files, which ARE basically the same format as Windows INI files (square bracket section header with key-value pairs following). That's because INI files aren't a Turing complete language and what you start seeing is edge cases where, even using unit files, you still need management scripts. So, that leaves you shaking your head asking why did Linux do all this crap in the first place, if most of their "benefits" start to disintegrate as soon as your init-need gets the least bit complicated. > Writing correct unit files for something as complicated as NFS and > especially if running in an split NFS3/NFS4 environment with > Kerberos-authenticated id mapping between server and client is NOT > simple. That's a great example, but only one that someone who digs in and discovers things at a low level will notice. Most of the loud voices on the pro-systemd side are people who don't interact with Linux at that level. They are just overjoyed that it boots 2 seconds quicker. Nevermind that ALL of the other alternative init systems boot faster than init. It's easy to do once you bootgraph everything (and init could easily be extended to do the same, and has been in some experimental cases). > Systemd doesn't ease the complexity of describing dependencies, As you know, you have to trace each unit-file's "wants" back to another unit file and keep going until you hit one without any dependencies. It's about the same turd hunt as looking at LSM tags (nothing lost, nothing gained). That's just my opinion based on working with both. As you say, it doesn't ease the process, nonetheless. > and i also have a suspicion that the systemd design wasn't enough well > defined for something else to happen (good and consistent design results > in better documentation) - so the users got to have to do a bit of > frustrating trial-and-error while writing their own unit files. I've heard that before from RHEL customers who were a bit shocked (and didn't know anything about the systemd controversy). > > > forcing a cgroup policy on everything. Okay, perhaps systemd is the > > > first program to actually *use* cgroups but if at some point in the > > > future you want to play around with it, well ... sorry. systemd is > > > in control there. Also, just for fun, my comment on cgroups is that they were just fine and working great well before systemd. Systemd forces everything to be potentially managed by cgroups (ie.. systemd is process ID 1). So, some would say this is better & easier. Me? I preferred the method of dorking with the cgconfig, cgcreate, cgset, and raw control interfaces where needed in /sys. That works great for /proc and the utilities that use it. I don't need systemd to mitigate this process for me (and I don't like it). Zero of the benefits of cgroups are tied directly to systemd (but boy, don't ask the systemd guys to admit that), nor do they need to be, nor is it impossible to put init under cgroups control (in fact it's quite easy). Putting an abstraction layer around something means that someone who's an "expert" now has to learn the abstraction layer AND the actual tool. Having now done both, I at least feel comfortable stating my position. > Which also affects something which i'm working with now namely cfengine, > cgroup's requires cfengine's performer cf-agent if it wan't to rerun > cf-serverd (the policy file server in cfengine, but cf-serverd has other > usage too) to start cf-serverd via systemctl enable/start. Yep, so you end up having to bifurcate your unit files, write scripts, or some other "ugly" method (ugly in the eyes of systemd folks) that systemd didn't really factor into reality before rolling out. > GNOME's adoption of systemd helps a bit. They've adopted each other. I, for one, always hated GNOME anyway, (as Liam suspected). Birds of a feather sure flocked together in this case. However, that's a good thing. I like when things I dislike clump together. It makes them easier to avoid. > It isn't good enough if the host is an virtual machine on esv4, that > really requires something which can handle clock drift in a sane way ie > ntpd. Well, some of the freakout is over the fact that parts of NTP are some magical stuff and the maintainer is attempting to bow out. However, it doesn't detract from your very valid point. > One functionality of questionable (or not so much) functionality is the > hails and whistles socket activation. IN the cause of NFS it would > require a new network protocol. Well, it wouldn't surprise me if Lennart just plunged ahead and wrote a new protocol (as long as it only works on Linux and has plenty of suck). The guy isn't short on energy. I'll give him that. > The CFengine developers has discussed using socket activation for > cf-serverd but it is really infeasible. As you know, the method for socket activation is completely different from inetd/xinetd and as you point out, requires devs to maintain *both* now, if they want to be relevant outside of Linux. > It would basically force them to maintain two completely different > cf-serverd implementations one for UNIX,systemd-less Linux and Windows > and one for systemd-ified Linux. Great example. So, we end up with a significant portion of the open source software world being forced into a choice they never signed on for. Do they focus on Linux and thus use extra cycles to create unit files and other systemd cruft or do they stick with init scripts and get "left behind" by folks who claim there is no problem whatsoever with using init scripts with systemd (yeah, they work, but it drives the systemd guys crazy). > Systemd-style socket activation in new applications/servers is an > possibility if a hard dependency on systemd is ok. Yep. It just creates more work for folks wanting to write really open software. Now they have to include extra crap for Linux users or face the wrath of the Potteringites and possible exclusion from all the distros who drank the whole bottle of systemd koolaid. Of course, they can always maintain both bits, and waste time they could be putting into their core software, but hey, it's "progress" right? Yah, I'm sure they won't mind. :-< -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 13:45:10 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:45:10 -0600 (MDT) Subject: NetBooting old MacOS 8.x or 7x. Message-ID: Due to the news about the MacOS name change, it's becoming quite hard to Google for older MacOS stuff. Was it ever possible to netboot MacOS 8.1 or earlier? I have A/UX 3 running nicely on a Quadra 700, now, but now I want to dual boot it with MacOS, but I don't have a CDROM. Taking out the drive and putting it on my other 68k Mac (a Centris 660AV) and installing MacOS still gives me some weird issues that I suspect are related to having installed it on different hardware. If I can't do a network based install, I'll probably just steal a longer SCSI cable, use a molex power splitter to add another 5V power cable, and then install from CDROM while the system is half-open. Then I'll just button it up afterwards. The factor SCSI cable in my Quadra 700 has only one connector for a drive. -Swift From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 20 13:54:12 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 20:54:12 +0200 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: <001001d1cb1a$e364d740$aa2e85c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> <001001d1cb1a$e364d740$aa2e85c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006501d1cb25$23b6dc30$6b249490$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West > Verzonden: maandag 20 juni 2016 19:41 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! > > I'll chime in as a 3rd person wanting a case for my PRM-85, and I know for sure > two other listmembers (who are not the two who mentioned it just now) who > will definitely want one. > > So.... probably 5 takers. > > Anyone with a 3d printer want to make one for us? > > J You can count me in too, so it will be 6.. -Rik From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 20 13:54:55 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:54:55 -0500 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> <1466282593.4068.29.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <001201d1cb25$3c49c0f0$b4dd42d0$@classiccmp.org> This has drifted too far off topic..... J From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Mon Jun 20 10:27:53 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:27:53 -0400 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board =?UTF-8?Q?case=3F=20=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?=2E=2E=2E=20maybe!?= In-Reply-To: <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> Message-ID: On 2016-06-20 11:34, Pete Plank wrote: >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 6:20 AM, Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de wrote: >> >> I read in this list that there are more people interested in such a >> case. > > I don?t have a 3D printer either, but I?m on board for one when > they?re ready to go - my PRM-85 is still in its anti-static bag. > > Pete I have a 3d printer, but not any of the boards in question. I don't mind helping if there's anything i can do. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 14:21:08 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:21:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <001201d1cb25$3c49c0f0$b4dd42d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20160616200902.GB11382@brevard.conman.org> <1466282593.4068.29.camel@agj.net> <001201d1cb25$3c49c0f0$b4dd42d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Jay West wrote: > This has drifted too far off topic..... Not to mention that it could go on for freakin' years. It's a "wedge issue" as they'd say in politics. I'm done. FYI. It's my last systemd related post to the list (or probably any list) for me. The PoS has already taken enough of my time. Based on the posts this time, it's just troll bait at this point. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 14:35:46 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:35:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? Message-ID: In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! Why are folks referring to "Verilogging" and "doing a verilog" on older chips. Is there some way you can stuff an IC into a socket or alligator clip a bunch of tiny leads onto it and then "map" it somehow into Verilog? Is that what folks who write emulators do? Ie.. they exhaustively dump Verilog code for all the chips then figure out how to implement that in some computer programming language like C ? What do folks do for ROM chips and PLCs? I'd think they must dump the code and disassemble it. No? I'm just curious and this is a tough question to answer with Google since I'm pretty clueless and don't know the right words to search for. I notice people talk about correcting their Verilog code, so it must be somewhat of a manual process. I'm just wondering how someone even gets started with a process like that. -Swift From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jun 20 15:02:01 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:02:01 -0400 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-20 3:35 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical > purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read > about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically > described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but > with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! > > Why are folks referring to "Verilogging" and "doing a verilog" on older > chips. Is there some way you can stuff an IC into a socket or alligator > clip a bunch of tiny leads onto it and then "map" it somehow into Verilog? > Is that what folks who write emulators do? They firstly go by documentation, and if that fails, reverse engineer, painfully. This is why preserving, archiving, publishing documentation is so incredibly important! > Ie.. they exhaustively dump > Verilog code for all the chips then figure out how to implement that in You can't in general get Verilog *out* of a chip. It goes the other way. You can compile Verilog into gates and netlists etc. > some computer programming language like C ? What do folks do for ROM chips > and PLCs? I'd think they must dump the code and disassemble it. No? Yes, they do that where possible. > > I'm just curious and this is a tough question to answer with Google since > I'm pretty clueless and don't know the right words to search for. I notice You can google "EDA tools". You can also grab toolchains from major vendors like Altera and play with Verilog/VHDL and simulate the results, too. > people talk about correcting their Verilog code, so it must be somewhat of > a manual process. I'm just wondering how someone even gets started with a > process like that. I'd suggest hitting some textbooks, not Google. Niklaus Wirth's book is fantastic, for people more comfortable in software, if you take it step by step: https://www.amazon.ca/Digital-Circuit-Computer-Science-Students/dp/354058577X --Toby > > -Swift > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jun 20 15:03:44 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:03:44 -0700 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84E2260C-F2E9-474E-BE69-33FEB9763F6B@shiresoft.com> What you can do (and I?ve seen it done) is define verilog modules that provide the functions of the IC and use that in their designs. I?ve seen at least two interesting classic computer recreations using this approach (re-implemenation of the CADR lisp machine in verilog and an IBM 360/30 in verilog). ROMs are easy (just instantiate a lookup table). PLCs are just combinatorial equations which are relatively easy with the verilog ?assign? statement. TTFN - Guy > On Jun 20, 2016, at 12:35 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical > purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read > about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically > described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but > with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! > > Why are folks referring to "Verilogging" and "doing a verilog" on older > chips. Is there some way you can stuff an IC into a socket or alligator > clip a bunch of tiny leads onto it and then "map" it somehow into Verilog? > Is that what folks who write emulators do? Ie.. they exhaustively dump > Verilog code for all the chips then figure out how to implement that in > some computer programming language like C ? What do folks do for ROM chips > and PLCs? I'd think they must dump the code and disassemble it. No? > > I'm just curious and this is a tough question to answer with Google since > I'm pretty clueless and don't know the right words to search for. I notice > people talk about correcting their Verilog code, so it must be somewhat of > a manual process. I'm just wondering how someone even gets started with a > process like that. > > -Swift From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:07:28 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:07:28 -0700 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> References: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: The hardest part of the process is distilling the functional specification of the part you are trying to replace. This is the heart of the topic. Some ways this can be done: > If adequate documentation exists, use it. > Observe the part's behavior in-system > Build a test bench to observe behavior of part outside of system > General leetness There is no one approach, it is more art than science. For going from a functional specification to a synthesizable model, this is simply writing HDL. I suggest this book, which covers the basics of this process. https://www.amazon.com/Verilog-Digital-System-Design-Verification/dp/0071445641 If you have no 100-level understanding of digital logic, start here: https://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Logic-Design-Randy-Katz/dp/0201308576 Thanks, - Ian On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-06-20 3:35 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> >> In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical >> purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read >> about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically >> described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but >> with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! >> >> Why are folks referring to "Verilogging" and "doing a verilog" on older >> chips. Is there some way you can stuff an IC into a socket or alligator >> clip a bunch of tiny leads onto it and then "map" it somehow into Verilog? >> Is that what folks who write emulators do? >> > > They firstly go by documentation, and if that fails, reverse engineer, > painfully. This is why preserving, archiving, publishing documentation is > so incredibly important! > > > Ie.. they exhaustively dump > >> Verilog code for all the chips then figure out how to implement that in >> > > You can't in general get Verilog *out* of a chip. It goes the other way. > You can compile Verilog into gates and netlists etc. > > some computer programming language like C ? What do folks do for ROM chips >> and PLCs? I'd think they must dump the code and disassemble it. No? >> > > Yes, they do that where possible. > > >> I'm just curious and this is a tough question to answer with Google since >> I'm pretty clueless and don't know the right words to search for. I notice >> > > You can google "EDA tools". You can also grab toolchains from major > vendors like Altera and play with Verilog/VHDL and simulate the results, > too. > > people talk about correcting their Verilog code, so it must be somewhat of >> a manual process. I'm just wondering how someone even gets started with a >> process like that. >> > > I'd suggest hitting some textbooks, not Google. > > Niklaus Wirth's book is fantastic, for people more comfortable in > software, if you take it step by step: > > > https://www.amazon.ca/Digital-Circuit-Computer-Science-Students/dp/354058577X > > --Toby > > >> -Swift >> >> > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 20 15:17:02 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:17:02 -0400 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> > On Jun 20, 2016, at 3:35 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical > purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read > about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically > described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but > with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! Verilog and VHDL are two "hardware description languages". You can think of them as programming languages to describe hardware behavior. Another way to look at them is as languages designed to let you talk easily about lots of things that happen at the same time -- which is what happens in hardware. VHDL borrows a lot from Ada; if you know Ada then VHDL will look somewhat familiar. It originated in the US DoD. Verilog appears to be originally a commercial product. At this point, there are lots of implementations of both, and both are in wide use. I only know (some) VHDL, so I can't really comment on similarities, differences, and plus/minuses. One key thing in hardware is that you have "signals" which change as a result of some input event, and that change is visible at a later time. But not immediately. This can be confusing if you're a programmer and used to how C or similar languages work. For example, in this C code: a = 1; b = a; a and b will both equal 1 at the end. But in the VHDL code: a <= 1; b <= a; (where a and b are signals, as indicated by the fact that signal assignment operators are used), a will show up as 1 at the end of the current cycle, and b will at that time show up with the value that a had at the start of this cycle. So this is very much NOT the same thing as the C code. But it fits hardware, where signals have to propagate and new things happen as a result of previous actions at previous points in time. VHDL and Verilog can be used to model hardware operation; they can also be used to describe hardware. These are not quite the same. A model can, for example, talk about actual delays. A hardware description does not; such a "synthesizable" model is a subset of the full language. This is a common way to design what goes into an FPGA. A hardware model can be used to replicate what old hardware did; for example, I have a partial CDC 6600 model that shows how it boots, and that model includes propagation delays on some signals (which are critical to correct operation in certain spots). Reverse engineering a design into VHDL or Verilog is just like reverse engineering a program into C. Both can be very hard if you don't have much information. For example, if all you have is a complex IC spec sheet, it is likely to be rather difficult. If you have internals, it becomes more feasible. There are plenty of textbooks on the topic. I would recommend the (large) book by Peter Ashenden on VHDL. He also has a book on Verilog; given how he treated VHDL I expect that one is good too but I don't have it. paul From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:17:35 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:17:35 -0700 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: To expand on my response- Some PALs, PLAs, and GALs will yield the fuse map if you try and read them with a programmer. This makes your job really easy. Take the fuse map and compare to the original data sheet. Cool beans. Some have the security bits set- in this case you would use a home-made test setup to stimulate enough test conditions to build a truth table that would allow you to infer the underlying logic. If the part is registered, then things get tricker. For that, I might take substantial in-system dumps with a logic analyzer (My favorite beginner LA is the Agilent 16700, which comes with DOOM preinstalled, so you know it's good stuff) ROMS are easy- once you read a bit about how HDLs work, you will be able to build one. Many languages offer functions to help with these (see readmemh and readmemb in verilog) Things get more complicated quickly- this is a deep topic and not something that can be covered quickly. I suggest you start with the two books I linked, and if you like them, there are a lot more around. Any edition should be suitable- get or find whatever is cheapest. We have not touched yet on practical things, like how to interface modern 1.8v FPGA I/O lines with 5V TTL logic- that is a topic for another day. Cheers, - Ian On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > The hardest part of the process is distilling the functional specification > of the part you are trying to replace. This is the heart of the topic. Some > ways this can be done: > > If adequate documentation exists, use it. > > Observe the part's behavior in-system > > Build a test bench to observe behavior of part outside of system > > General leetness > > There is no one approach, it is more art than science. > > For going from a functional specification to a synthesizable model, this > is simply writing HDL. > I suggest this book, which covers the basics of this process. > > https://www.amazon.com/Verilog-Digital-System-Design-Verification/dp/0071445641 > > If you have no 100-level understanding of digital logic, start here: > https://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Logic-Design-Randy-Katz/dp/0201308576 > > Thanks, > > - Ian > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >> On 2016-06-20 3:35 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: >> >>> >>> In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical >>> purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read >>> about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically >>> described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but >>> with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! >>> >>> Why are folks referring to "Verilogging" and "doing a verilog" on older >>> chips. Is there some way you can stuff an IC into a socket or alligator >>> clip a bunch of tiny leads onto it and then "map" it somehow into >>> Verilog? >>> Is that what folks who write emulators do? >>> >> >> They firstly go by documentation, and if that fails, reverse engineer, >> painfully. This is why preserving, archiving, publishing documentation is >> so incredibly important! >> >> > Ie.. they exhaustively dump >> >>> Verilog code for all the chips then figure out how to implement that in >>> >> >> You can't in general get Verilog *out* of a chip. It goes the other way. >> You can compile Verilog into gates and netlists etc. >> >> some computer programming language like C ? What do folks do for ROM chips >>> and PLCs? I'd think they must dump the code and disassemble it. No? >>> >> >> Yes, they do that where possible. >> >> >>> I'm just curious and this is a tough question to answer with Google since >>> I'm pretty clueless and don't know the right words to search for. I >>> notice >>> >> >> You can google "EDA tools". You can also grab toolchains from major >> vendors like Altera and play with Verilog/VHDL and simulate the results, >> too. >> >> people talk about correcting their Verilog code, so it must be somewhat of >>> a manual process. I'm just wondering how someone even gets started with a >>> process like that. >>> >> >> I'd suggest hitting some textbooks, not Google. >> >> Niklaus Wirth's book is fantastic, for people more comfortable in >> software, if you take it step by step: >> >> >> https://www.amazon.ca/Digital-Circuit-Computer-Science-Students/dp/354058577X >> >> --Toby >> >> >>> -Swift >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 20 15:19:56 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:19:56 -0400 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 20, 2016, at 4:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 3:35 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: >> >> In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical >> purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read >> about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically >> described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but >> with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! > > Verilog and VHDL are two "hardware description languages". You can think of them as programming languages to describe hardware behavior. Another way to look at them is as languages designed to let you talk easily about lots of things that happen at the same time -- which is what happens in hardware. I forgot to mention: at least for VHDL, there's an open source simulator. In other words, a program that accepts VHDL input and lets you "run" the simulated hardware. You can feed it inputs in various ways, and observe its behavior -- for example as waveform traces on a waveform display, like an oscilloscope. Look for GHDL. It's a GCC front end; it takes your VHDL code and compiles it, then it's linked with a support library to make an executable program. Since it's GCC based you can do neat things, like run it on various hardware platforms. Or link in C functions to do stuff, like simulate external peripherals connected to your hardware model. I haven't looked for open source Verilog simulators. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jun 20 15:22:10 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:22:10 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-20 4:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > ...A hardware model can be used to replicate what old hardware did; for example, I have a partial CDC 6600 model that shows how it boots, and that model includes propagation delays on some signals (which are critical to correct operation in certain spots). > This is probably of great interest to more than just me. Any more details? Going to publish? --Toby From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:24:18 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:24:18 -0700 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: I find most of the open source HDL simulators kind of suck. I think you can still get ModelSim Web edition for free from altera. This will do mixed language designs of Verilog, VHDL and schematic, and works rather nicely. Remember, each module is just a set of input and output signals, so the language really doesn't matter. Mixed language designs are very common. Yes, you can even build FPGA designs in a schematic editor out of library modules. No, I don't suggest you should. On Monday, June 20, 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Jun 20, 2016, at 4:17 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > > > >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 3:35 PM, Swift Griggs > wrote: > >> > >> In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical > >> purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read > >> about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically > >> described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but > >> with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! > > > > Verilog and VHDL are two "hardware description languages". You can > think of them as programming languages to describe hardware behavior. > Another way to look at them is as languages designed to let you talk easily > about lots of things that happen at the same time -- which is what happens > in hardware. > > I forgot to mention: at least for VHDL, there's an open source simulator. > In other words, a program that accepts VHDL input and lets you "run" the > simulated hardware. You can feed it inputs in various ways, and observe > its behavior -- for example as waveform traces on a waveform display, like > an oscilloscope. Look for GHDL. It's a GCC front end; it takes your VHDL > code and compiles it, then it's linked with a support library to make an > executable program. Since it's GCC based you can do neat things, like run > it on various hardware platforms. Or link in C functions to do stuff, like > simulate external peripherals connected to your hardware model. > > I haven't looked for open source Verilog simulators. > > paul > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 20 15:35:00 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:35:00 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> > On Jun 20, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2016-06-20 4:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> ...A hardware model can > be used to replicate what old hardware did; for example, I have a > partial CDC 6600 model that shows how it boots, and that model includes > propagation delays on some signals (which are critical to correct > operation in certain spots). >> > > This is probably of great interest to more than just me. > > Any more details? Going to publish? Sure. You can see it at svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/dtcyber/trunk; most is in the vhdl subdirectory but it uses some pieces from the top level. Very much work in progress. It's derived from the 6600 wire lists on bitsavers. I OCRed them (what a pain), wrote VHDL models (gate level structural models) of each 6000 series module, and a Python script builds a structural model out of those elements interconnected by the wires from the wire lists. "Sufficiently long" wires have their delay explicitly modeled. I currently have chassis 1 (PPUs) working, at least to the point where I can do a deadstart, have that load from the deadstart panel, and execute some instructions. I've used it to grok some magic related to deadstart that's part of the lore but not documented. I also have the 6612 display controller working, so I can see how the text display on the console tubes works. Unfortunately I don't have a good SPICE model for the analog parts, so I don't yet know why the character shapes are changed by the circuitry in the manner that the photos show. The CPU is work in progress. I'm trying to get exchange to work. It's hard; even more than the PPUs, the CPU relies on hairy timing in certain spots. It appears that the wire lists are not all the same rev, and there are also some typos in them. Some day, if things go really well, this may result in a gate level accurate FPGA 6600. I'm thinking I'll stop trying OCR and simply type the wire lists instead; that's likely to be faster in the long run. paul From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:36:27 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:36:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > The hardest part of the process is distilling the functional > specification of the part you are trying to replace. This is the heart > of the topic. Hmm, okay so that's pretty much what I expected. They start with what that particular chip or ROM etc.. _does_ then they re-implement as a process of discovery. Does that sound accurate? > There is no one approach, it is more art than science. That's also what I expected. I guess as I was reading through other material, I got the impression that it might be more deterministic, but my gut feeling was right, I think. Nothing is ever *that* easy. > For going from a functional specification to a synthesizable model, this > is simply writing HDL. I suggest this book, which covers the basics of > this process. > https://www.amazon.com/Verilog-Digital-System-Design-Verification/dp/0071445641 Whoa. That's a pricey sucker. I'm probably not going to be able to make use of Verilog for a little bit yet. I'm still designing all my little "homework assignment" type projects on paper or using a tool I found in pkgsrc called "The Eagle Layout Editor." It's got some nice features (at least for me so far). I'll probably go with the Wirth book since it's a bit cheaper, but I still appreciate your suggestion. > If you have no 100-level understanding of digital logic, start here: > https://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Logic-Design-Randy-Katz/dp/0201308576 I have about a 100-level understanding, now. I took a digital logic class in college and I still have my book. It's "Fundamentals of Digital Design" I believe (or something very close to that). It was a while back, though. I understand boolean logic, changing base for numbering systems, etc.. However, I have a breathtaking lack of experience in applying that stuff to "real" digital logic. I'm just using online tutorials and guides for the moment, but the main one I focus on is this one: http://www.learningelectronics.net/vol_4/index.html So far, it's been great. I'm just finishing up some of the analog stuff on that same site, and I've greedily skipped ahead a bit to digital. However, I'm just now getting to TTLs and gates. I have to actually write out examples or test things physically to really "get it". However, I'm just plodding along. I have a nice little mess happening on my workbench in the garage. I'm about to move on past just using simple capacitors, resistors, and diodes to using some ICs. It's a little intimidating, actually. I thought I could get to the point I'm at now in about two weeks. It actually took about five or six weeks (just for an analog refresher). I'm still a bit shaky on some of that stuff, too. It's hard to test/see everything. So, some things I just read about, shrug, and keep going. -Swift From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jun 20 15:41:12 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:41:12 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2016-06-20 4:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> On 2016-06-20 4:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> ...A hardware model can >> be used to replicate what old hardware did; for example, I have a >> partial CDC 6600 model that shows how it boots, and that model includes >> propagation delays on some signals (which are critical to correct >> operation in certain spots). >>> >> >> This is probably of great interest to more than just me. >> >> Any more details? Going to publish? > > Sure. You can see it at svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/dtcyber/trunk; ... > Some day, if things go really well, this may result in a gate level accurate FPGA 6600. I'm thinking I'll stop trying OCR and simply type the wire lists instead; that's likely to be faster in the long run. > This is frankly amazing. Thankyou for the details. Maybe one day I'll be able to volunteer some help. (Actually if there's anything I can do now, as an electronics noob but beginning student of digital logic & FPGA, let me know offlist.) --Toby > paul > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:43:38 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:43:38 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul wrote: >>> I'm thinking I'll stop trying OCR and simply type the wire lists instead; that's likely to be faster in the long run. If you need someone to help, I'd be happy to transcribe some shit while watching TV if you send me the docs and desired schema. I'm no stranger to this sort of process :) On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Jun 20, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > > > > On 2016-06-20 4:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> ...A hardware model can > > be used to replicate what old hardware did; for example, I have a > > partial CDC 6600 model that shows how it boots, and that model includes > > propagation delays on some signals (which are critical to correct > > operation in certain spots). > >> > > > > This is probably of great interest to more than just me. > > > > Any more details? Going to publish? > > Sure. You can see it at svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/dtcyber/trunk; most is > in the vhdl subdirectory but it uses some pieces from the top level. Very > much work in progress. > > It's derived from the 6600 wire lists on bitsavers. I OCRed them (what a > pain), wrote VHDL models (gate level structural models) of each 6000 series > module, and a Python script builds a structural model out of those elements > interconnected by the wires from the wire lists. "Sufficiently long" wires > have their delay explicitly modeled. > > I currently have chassis 1 (PPUs) working, at least to the point where I > can do a deadstart, have that load from the deadstart panel, and execute > some instructions. I've used it to grok some magic related to deadstart > that's part of the lore but not documented. I also have the 6612 display > controller working, so I can see how the text display on the console tubes > works. Unfortunately I don't have a good SPICE model for the analog parts, > so I don't yet know why the character shapes are changed by the circuitry > in the manner that the photos show. > > The CPU is work in progress. I'm trying to get exchange to work. It's > hard; even more than the PPUs, the CPU relies on hairy timing in certain > spots. It appears that the wire lists are not all the same rev, and there > are also some typos in them. > > Some day, if things go really well, this may result in a gate level > accurate FPGA 6600. I'm thinking I'll stop trying OCR and simply type the > wire lists instead; that's likely to be faster in the long run. > > paul > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:47:47 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:47:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > Some PALs, PLAs, and GALs will yield the fuse map if you try and read them > with a programmer. This makes your job really easy. Take the fuse map and > compare to the original data sheet. Cool beans. That sounds like magic. I'm reading about what "fuse map" is, now. That's a new term for me. > Some have the security bits set- in this case you would use a home-made > test setup to stimulate enough test conditions to build a truth table > that would allow you to infer the underlying logic. Hmm, so there is something akin to "copy protection" even at the chip level. Ugh. I'm not surprised. > If the part is registered, then things get tricker. For that, I might > take substantial in-system dumps with a logic analyzer (My favorite > beginner LA is the Agilent 16700, which comes with DOOM preinstalled, so > you know it's good stuff) Oh, cool. I was just browsing for one a few days ago. I was looking at the ones from Saleae and Tektronix. I'll have to check that out. If they were cool enough to pre-install Doom, I think we have a winner. :-) > ROMS are easy- once you read a bit about how HDLs work, you will be able > to build one. Many languages offer functions to help with these (see > readmemh and readmemb in verilog) I actually did burn some ROM code in college. I remember it being fairly easy. However, I would look like a stunned fish if someone asked me to reverse engineer one. > Things get more complicated quickly- this is a deep topic and not > something that can be covered quickly. I suggest you start with the two > books I linked, and if you like them, there are a lot more around. Any > edition should be suitable- get or find whatever is cheapest. Oh good lord, I'm so out of my depth already. However, it's still interesting and I'm still trying (I'm stubborn that way). I've got to get the simplest basics down before I dive in all the way with a "real" book. I'm going to try to stick with my digital logic self-refresh first, but this Verilog business is awfully cool. I will be sorely tempted to come back to this same point, I'm sure. > We have not touched yet on practical things, like how to interface > modern 1.8v FPGA I/O lines with 5V TTL logic- that is a topic for > another day. Hmm, I never even knew of that problem, but after doing a bunch of analog, I get the impression that would create a lot of hassles, especially if you were just trying to duplicate some already laid-out logic, but it was all at 5V... -Swift From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jun 20 15:53:32 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:53:32 -0700 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Most of the FPGA companies provide (free) tools that allow you to write in verilog/VHDL and then simulate and observe the outputs (you can even ?drill down? and see internal signals as well. It?s fairly easy to write a little bit of code (there are lots of examples on the web) and try it out on the simulator. If you get an FPGA eval board (I have a number of Digilent Xilinx boards) you can take your sample code and download it to the eval board and run it. TTFN - Guy > On Jun 20, 2016, at 1:47 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Ian Finder wrote: >> Some PALs, PLAs, and GALs will yield the fuse map if you try and read them >> with a programmer. This makes your job really easy. Take the fuse map and >> compare to the original data sheet. Cool beans. > > That sounds like magic. I'm reading about what "fuse map" is, now. That's > a new term for me. > >> Some have the security bits set- in this case you would use a home-made >> test setup to stimulate enough test conditions to build a truth table >> that would allow you to infer the underlying logic. > > Hmm, so there is something akin to "copy protection" even at the chip > level. Ugh. I'm not surprised. > >> If the part is registered, then things get tricker. For that, I might >> take substantial in-system dumps with a logic analyzer (My favorite >> beginner LA is the Agilent 16700, which comes with DOOM preinstalled, so >> you know it's good stuff) > > Oh, cool. I was just browsing for one a few days ago. I was looking at the > ones from Saleae and Tektronix. I'll have to check that out. If they were > cool enough to pre-install Doom, I think we have a winner. :-) > >> ROMS are easy- once you read a bit about how HDLs work, you will be able >> to build one. Many languages offer functions to help with these (see >> readmemh and readmemb in verilog) > > I actually did burn some ROM code in college. I remember it being fairly > easy. However, I would look like a stunned fish if someone asked me to > reverse engineer one. > >> Things get more complicated quickly- this is a deep topic and not >> something that can be covered quickly. I suggest you start with the two >> books I linked, and if you like them, there are a lot more around. Any >> edition should be suitable- get or find whatever is cheapest. > > Oh good lord, I'm so out of my depth already. However, it's still > interesting and I'm still trying (I'm stubborn that way). I've got to get > the simplest basics down before I dive in all the way with a "real" book. > I'm going to try to stick with my digital logic self-refresh first, but > this Verilog business is awfully cool. I will be sorely tempted to come > back to this same point, I'm sure. > >> We have not touched yet on practical things, like how to interface >> modern 1.8v FPGA I/O lines with 5V TTL logic- that is a topic for >> another day. > > Hmm, I never even knew of that problem, but after doing a bunch of analog, > I get the impression that would create a lot of hassles, especially if you > were just trying to duplicate some already laid-out logic, but it was all > at 5V... > > -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:56:52 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:56:52 -0600 (MDT) Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > used to how C or similar languages work. For example, in this C code: > a = 1; > b = a; > a and b will both equal 1 at the end. But in the VHDL code: > a <= 1; > b <= a; Whoa. That makes total sense, though. In the real world, I'm guessing the "less than" just reflects that a signal might not have the level you expect. > But it fits hardware, where signals have to propagate and new things > happen as a result of previous actions at previous points in time. It makes me wonder what kind of person had to figure out all those effects and enshrine them in a deterministic language. That sounds very challenging. Hats off to them. > VHDL and Verilog can be used to model hardware operation; they can also > be used to describe hardware. These are not quite the same. I've got a tab in my browser with an article about the differences. I like strongly typed languages, so I'd probably start with VHDL if I can get that far. > A model can, for example, talk about actual delays. A hardware > description does not; such a "synthesizable" model is a subset of the > full language. Ah, okay. I had wondered what that meant when Ian had mentioned it. > This is a common way to design what goes into an FPGA. A hardware model > can be used to replicate what old hardware did; for example, I have a > partial CDC 6600 model that shows how it boots, and that model includes > propagation delays on some signals (which are critical to correct > operation in certain spots). Wow. All I can say is "I wish I could do something like that, too." :-) > For example, if all you have is a complex IC spec sheet, it is likely to > be rather difficult. If you have internals, it becomes more feasible. Hehe, I keep up this page a lot: https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/223 It's concerning how to read spec sheets. ... because reading these sheets is about like reading a man page for non-UNIX users, it's tough at first, but then becomes very valuable! > There are plenty of textbooks on the topic. I would recommend the > (large) book by Peter Ashenden on VHDL. He also has a book on Verilog; > given how he treated VHDL I expect that one is good too but I don't have > it. I'm not there yet, but I've bookmarked a copy at Half-Price Books and I'll come back to it if I make it through my digital logic course with brain cells to spare. -Swift PS: Thanks to you and Ian for the nice explanations and answers. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 20 16:01:46 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:01:46 -0600 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/20/2016 2:24 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I find most of the open source HDL simulators kind of suck. I think you can > still get ModelSim Web edition for free from altera. I think you get 1 month free ... then $$$. > I like the CRASH and BURN testing for FPGA's. What I want is 5 volt I/O FPGA with a flash Boot prom for the FPGA on tiny 64 pin PCB. This way one can emulate a vintage logic board or cpu. > This will do mixed language designs of Verilog, VHDL and schematic, and > works rather nicely. Altera has AHDL as well. Not portable, but less confusing to write logic in. > Remember, each module is just a set of input and output signals, so the > language really doesn't matter. Mixed language designs are very common. > > Yes, you can even build FPGA designs in a schematic editor out of library > modules. No, I don't suggest you should. With Altera, you had a TTL macro library at one time. Not sure if the newest version still supports it. Ben. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jun 20 16:06:26 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:06:26 -0700 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <26CEFA50-58AD-4195-8B35-0533E7F01AD6@shiresoft.com> > On Jun 20, 2016, at 1:56 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> used to how C or similar languages work. For example, in this C code: >> a = 1; >> b = a; >> a and b will both equal 1 at the end. But in the VHDL code: >> a <= 1; >> b <= a; > > Whoa. That makes total sense, though. In the real world, I'm guessing the > "less than" just reflects that a signal might not have the level you > expect. > The best way to think about the two different assignment operators (<= is an assignment *not* less-than-or-equal) is that one happens ?now? and the other is resolved on clock edges. So assuming that a & b are 1 bit wide and that initially both a and b are 0 (or in verilog terms 1b0). In the first example, both a and b will be 1b1. In the second example, at the end of the first clock cycle, a will be 1b1 and b will be 1b0. At the end of the next clock cycle, a will be 1b1 and b will be 1b1 also. TTFN - Guy From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 16:07:01 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:07:01 -0500 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20160620210701.GA35723@gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > The hardest part of the process is distilling the functional specification > of the part you are trying to replace. This is the heart of the topic. Some > ways this can be done: > > If adequate documentation exists, use it. > > Observe the part's behavior in-system > > Build a test bench to observe behavior of part outside of system > > General leetness > > There is no one approach, it is more art than science. > > For going from a functional specification to a synthesizable model, this is > simply writing HDL. > I suggest this book, which covers the basics of this process. > https://www.amazon.com/Verilog-Digital-System-Design-Verification/dp/0071445641 > > If you have no 100-level understanding of digital logic, start here: > https://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Logic-Design-Randy-Katz/dp/0201308576 > > Thanks, > > - Ian For learning, I really recommend this Coursera MOOC: https://www.coursera.org/learn/build-a-computer/home/welcome It has a part 2, which covers writing programs from machine language up; I haven't taken that one yet. Part 1 talks about logic gates, boolean logic, etc. (like in the web book Swift posted the URL of), but it also lets you dip your toes in an HDL/Verilog-like toy language, and has simulators (note: they require Java) to run the circuits you design. > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > > > On 2016-06-20 3:35 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > >> > >> In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical > >> purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read > >> about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically > >> described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but > >> with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! > >> > >> Why are folks referring to "Verilogging" and "doing a verilog" on older > >> chips. Is there some way you can stuff an IC into a socket or alligator > >> clip a bunch of tiny leads onto it and then "map" it somehow into Verilog? > >> Is that what folks who write emulators do? > >> > > > > They firstly go by documentation, and if that fails, reverse engineer, > > painfully. This is why preserving, archiving, publishing documentation is > > so incredibly important! > > > > > Ie.. they exhaustively dump > > > >> Verilog code for all the chips then figure out how to implement that in > >> > > > > You can't in general get Verilog *out* of a chip. It goes the other way. > > You can compile Verilog into gates and netlists etc. > > > > some computer programming language like C ? What do folks do for ROM chips > >> and PLCs? I'd think they must dump the code and disassemble it. No? > >> > > > > Yes, they do that where possible. > > > > > >> I'm just curious and this is a tough question to answer with Google since > >> I'm pretty clueless and don't know the right words to search for. I notice > >> > > > > You can google "EDA tools". You can also grab toolchains from major > > vendors like Altera and play with Verilog/VHDL and simulate the results, > > too. > > > > people talk about correcting their Verilog code, so it must be somewhat of > >> a manual process. I'm just wondering how someone even gets started with a > >> process like that. > >> > > > > I'd suggest hitting some textbooks, not Google. > > > > Niklaus Wirth's book is fantastic, for people more comfortable in > > software, if you take it step by step: > > > > > > https://www.amazon.ca/Digital-Circuit-Computer-Science-Students/dp/354058577X -- Eric Christopherson From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 20 16:08:56 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:08:56 -0600 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <679fc189-bbba-ec4e-8349-d8d91d3b89ca@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/20/2016 2:36 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > So far, it's been great. I'm just finishing up some of the analog stuff on > that same site, and I've greedily skipped ahead a bit to digital. However, > I'm just now getting to TTLs and gates. I have to actually write out > examples or test things physically to really "get it". However, I'm just > plodding along. I have a nice little mess happening on my workbench in the > garage. I'm about to move on past just using simple capacitors, resistors, > and diodes to using some ICs. It's a little intimidating, actually. I > thought I could get to the point I'm at now in about two weeks. It > actually took about five or six weeks (just for an analog refresher). I'm > still a bit shaky on some of that stuff, too. It's hard to test/see > everything. So, some things I just read about, shrug, and keep going. But of course the real stuff is TOP SECRET, unless you PAY. > -Swift A good read on LSI in the late 1970's. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/VLSIText/VLSIText.html Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 20 16:12:50 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:12:50 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/20/2016 2:41 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > This is frankly amazing. Thankyou for the details. Maybe one day I'll be > able to volunteer some help. (Actually if there's anything I can do now, > as an electronics noob but beginning student of digital logic & FPGA, > let me know offlist.) How about a REAL FPGA board that has 5 volt I/O and 36+ bit wide memory would make some big computers a reality. Ben. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 16:40:26 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:40:26 -0600 (MDT) Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <20160620210701.GA35723@gmail.com> References: <0359f56a-e600-b9d8-3e47-bdfe19701363@telegraphics.com.au> <20160620210701.GA35723@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > For learning, I really recommend this Coursera MOOC: > https://www.coursera.org/learn/build-a-computer/home/welcome Hmm, I had to sign up with them, but I did it. I wanted to see this simulator. It's a very "slick" course with lots of way-cool topics. This is definitely awesome. Thanks. -Swift From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 20 16:53:25 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NetBooting old MacOS 8.x or 7x. In-Reply-To: from Swift Griggs at "Jun 20, 16 12:45:10 pm" Message-ID: <201606202153.u5KLrPRT45810098@floodgap.com> > Due to the news about the MacOS name change, it's becoming quite hard to > Google for older MacOS stuff. Was it ever possible to netboot MacOS 8.1 or > earlier? I have A/UX 3 running nicely on a Quadra 700, now, but now I want > to dual boot it with MacOS, but I don't have a CDROM. Taking out the drive > and putting it on my other 68k Mac (a Centris 660AV) and installing MacOS > still gives me some weird issues that I suspect are related to having > installed it on different hardware. > > If I can't do a network based install, I'll probably just steal a longer > SCSI cable, use a molex power splitter to add another 5V power cable, and > then install from CDROM while the system is half-open. Then I'll just > button it up afterwards. The factor SCSI cable in my Quadra 700 has only > one connector for a drive. In short: no. In long: NetBoot requires a G4 or a late G3, and that would imply pretty much only 8.6 and up. You *can* netboot a *IIgs* from an AppleShare server (over LocalTalk), and I have in fact done that myself, but I've never seen this functionality on a 68K Mac or 60x Power Mac and the ROM doesn't know how. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I like being single. I'm always there when I need me. -- Art Leo ----------- From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 16:54:55 2016 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:54:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> Message-ID: <1500899816.6907565.1466459695026.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I'm interested as well. Dave On Monday, June 20, 2016 2:16 PM, "alexmcwhirter at triadic.us" wrote: On 2016-06-20 11:34, Pete Plank wrote: >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 6:20 AM, Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de wrote: >> >> I read in this list that there are more people interested in such a >> case. > > I don?t have a 3D printer either, but I?m on board for one when > they?re ready to go - my PRM-85 is still in its anti-static bag. > > Pete I have a 3d printer, but not any of the boards in question. I don't mind helping if there's anything i can do. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 17:00:26 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:00:26 -0600 (MDT) Subject: NetBooting old MacOS 8.x or 7x. In-Reply-To: <201606202153.u5KLrPRT45810098@floodgap.com> References: <201606202153.u5KLrPRT45810098@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > In short: no. Thanks, Cameron. At least now I know. > In long: NetBoot requires a G4 or a late G3, and that would imply pretty > much only 8.6 and up. Hmm, that's what I'd seen so far and was lead to believe. > You *can* netboot a *IIgs* from an AppleShare server (over LocalTalk), > and I have in fact done that myself, but I've never seen this > functionality on a 68K Mac or 60x Power Mac and the ROM doesn't know > how. Ahh, that explains some things I'd seen. Well, I'll do some jiggery-pokery with some SCSI devices. I have a workaround. I just don't have one little part I need (it's coming) and I was getting impatient. -Swift From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 18:20:55 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 01:20:55 +0200 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15 June 2016 at 20:39, Swift Griggs wrote: > Hmm. I think you'd fly right through it, Liam. You are a smart guy, I > doubt you'd have any significant problems these days. Still, it's a > console-based install. FWIW, I've tried again this evening. Not on bare metal -- on the latest VirtualBox. First I tried the pre-installed VM image, but it came with no network connection enabled. (Between every step I mention, I googled for how to do it...) So I downloaded the DVD ISO, created a default VM (well, enlarging the RAM to 2GB), did a bare install, tried to add XFCE... and it barfed. Disk full. Nuked it, started over with an 8GB disk. This time XFCE installed but wouldn't start. I tried installing XDM. That wouldn't start either. Digging reveals that apparently Xfce doesn't depend on X.11. (!) Installed X.11. Works. Can now start twm or Xfce. XDM now works but won't start Xfce, or indeed, anything at all. Dump Xsession, make a minimal new one. Now XDM lets me log in. Woohoo, a desktop! Install sudo. Install Firefox. Now we have a working Web connection! Install Virtualbox guest additions. Modify config file to start them. And it works, albeit with some errors. So, I take it back. Apparently I can now install FreeBSD. It was a significant amount of work over a few hours, though... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jun 20 20:01:04 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 20:01:04 -0500 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <576891D0.6070403@pico-systems.com> On 06/20/2016 03:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 4:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 20, 2016, at 3:35 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: >>> >>> In my recent studies of electronics (I'm a noob for all practical >>> purposes) I keep seeing folks refer to Verilog almost as a verb. I read >>> about it in Wikipedia and it sounds pretty interesting. It's basically >>> described as a coding scheme for electronics, similar to programming but >>> with extras like signal strength and propagation included. Hey, cool! >> Verilog and VHDL are two "hardware description languages". You can think of them as programming languages to describe hardware behavior. Another way to look at them is as languages designed to let you talk easily about lots of things that happen at the same time -- which is what happens in hardware. > I forgot to mention: at least for VHDL, there's an open source simulator. In other words, a program that accepts VHDL input and lets you "run" the simulated hardware. You can feed it inputs in various ways, and observe its behavior -- for example as waveform traces on a waveform display, like an oscilloscope. Look for GHDL. It's a GCC front end; it takes your VHDL code and compiles it, then it's linked with a support library to make an executable program. Since it's GCC based you can do neat things, like run it on various hardware platforms. Or link in C functions to do stuff, like simulate external peripherals connected to your hardware model. > > I haven't looked for open source Verilog simulators. > > Pretty much any FPGA design package will have a simulator that will take FPGA-synthesizable VHDL or Verilog and build a simulation environment that produces the functions specified in the HDL. Note that there are LOTS of things you can write in VHDL and Verilog that do not synthesize into logic, and thus the simulators won't express what those statements ask for. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 20 20:15:06 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:15:06 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7A4CDB31-2042-4DF2-A3FD-79192FD3F1EB@comcast.net> > On Jun 20, 2016, at 5:12 PM, ben wrote: > > On 6/20/2016 2:41 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> >> This is frankly amazing. Thankyou for the details. Maybe one day I'll be >> able to volunteer some help. (Actually if there's anything I can do now, >> as an electronics noob but beginning student of digital logic & FPGA, >> let me know offlist.) > > How about a REAL FPGA board that has 5 volt I/O and 36+ bit wide memory > would make some big computers a reality. Given the right level of internal detail, a PDP10 emulation should be straightforward. Just to give you a feeling for the currently available scale, I figured that a large but not max size FPGA can hold a complete CDC 6600 -- its 15 chassis worth of modules, including PPU and CPU memory. The only thing that -- probably -- doesn't quite fit is the ECS. But CPU memory, 128k words of 60 bits, is perfectly straightforward inside a modern large FPGA. (Good thing, too; the CM timing is such that trying to hook up external RAM is quite a pain, unless you make it SRAM. ECS is far more lenient.) paul From thebri at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 20:15:33 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:15:33 -0400 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: <1500899816.6907565.1466459695026.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> <1500899816.6907565.1466459695026.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a printer - just finished putting a Rostock V2 together a week or so ago - and an 87xm (and 86b, fwiw) and some modules, but no PRM-85. If fit against a standard module board is sufficient, I can do an iteration or two. I haven't quite finished calibration, but it is printing sufficiently well so far. Is the PRM-85 still available? b On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Dave wrote: > I'm interested as well. > Dave > > > On Monday, June 20, 2016 2:16 PM, "alexmcwhirter at triadic.us" < > alexmcwhirter at triadic.us> wrote: > > > > On 2016-06-20 11:34, Pete Plank wrote: > >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 6:20 AM, Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de wrote: > >> > >> I read in this list that there are more people interested in such a > >> case. > > > > I don?t have a 3D printer either, but I?m on board for one when > > they?re ready to go - my PRM-85 is still in its anti-static bag. > > > > Pete > > I have a 3d printer, but not any of the boards in question. I don't mind > helping if there's anything i can do. > > > > > From lists at loomcom.com Mon Jun 20 16:05:33 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:05:33 -0500 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20160620210533.GA23088@loomcom.com> * On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 04:19:56PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > I haven't looked for open source Verilog simulators. I've used Icarus Verilog ('iverilog') in the past. It's pretty bare bones, but you can feed the output into gnuplot and make reasonable diagrams from it. > paul -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jun 20 22:00:54 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 23:00:54 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 2016-06-20 5:12 PM, ben wrote: > On 6/20/2016 2:41 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> >> This is frankly amazing. Thankyou for the details. Maybe one day I'll be >> able to volunteer some help. (Actually if there's anything I can do now, >> as an electronics noob but beginning student of digital logic & FPGA, >> let me know offlist.) > > How about a REAL FPGA board that has 5 volt I/O and 36+ bit wide memory Altera Cyclone has 9 bit byte lanes, so getting 36 bit memory is no problem. --Toby > would make some big computers a reality. > Ben. > > > From wkt at tuhs.org Mon Jun 20 22:07:35 2016 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:07:35 +1000 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? Message-ID: <20160621030735.GA5102@minnie.tuhs.org> All, I messed around with VHDL last year. I found this a great book to learn VHDL best practices: http://www.gstitt.ece.ufl.edu/courses/eel4712/labs/free_range_vhdl.pdf The book is free but you can also buy a printed copy at http://freerangefactory.org/ I started with GHDL: https://www.fpgarelated.com/showarticle/20.php and then progressed to a Nexys4 FPGA board. Lots of fun. Just a few more resources to add to the mix. Cheers, Warren P.S The CPU I built with it: http://minnie.tuhs.org/Programs/UcodeCPU/index.html From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 22:33:01 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:33:01 -0600 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> a and b will both equal 1 at the end. But in the VHDL code: >> a <= 1; >> b <= a; > > Whoa. That makes total sense, though. In the real world, I'm guessing the > "less than" just reflects that a signal might not have the level you > expect. It's not a "less than". In VHDL, "<=" is a token for a left arrow, for signal assignment, as in the quote above. Also "=>" is a token for a right arrow, used for mappings, e.g., signal foo: std_logic_vector (7 downto 0) := (7 downto 4 => '0', others => '1'); is one way to declare a signal that is an 8-bit vector, with the left four bits initialized to 0, and the right four bits initialized to 1. In this specific case, it probably would be more clear to write: signal foo: std_logic_vector (7 downto 0) := "00001111"; but I didn't do that because I wanted to give an example of "=>". "=>" can also be used to map formal to actual parameters of subprograms, and (conceptually similarly) to map ports of components to signals. (VHDL allows indices to be descending, using "downto", or ascending, using "to", but it's usually best not to try to mix them in a design. I almost exclusively use "downto", as it matches the most commonly used bit numbering of busses, where the most significant bit is conceptually on the left, and has the highest bit number, and the place-value weight of each bit is 2^n.) VHDL is often criticized for being more verbose than Verilog. IMHO, it more than makes up for that by offering strong type checking, whereas Verilog makes it easier to shoot yourself in the foot without any warning. (Much like Ada vs. C.) I personally don't find the verbosity to be an issue, because I can type much faster than I can think about anything complicated. I rarely, if ever, find that the verbosity slows me down in the slightest, but certainly YMMV. Originally VHDL was a more expressive language than Verilog, but more recent Verilog standards have closed much of the gap. Both Verilog and VHDL make it easy to write code that cannot be synthesized to hardware (or to "reasonable" hardware), so one learns to stick to a subset of the language capabilities that is synthesizable. AFAIK, there is no formal spec for a synthesizable subset of either language; different synthesizers have variations in what they accept. To some extent, knowing what features of the language can be used in synthesis is a matter of understanding what hardware (gates and flip-flops) you're trying to represent. While VHDL and Verilog can provide a higher abstraction than individual gates and flip-flops, synthesis has to turn everything into those, and if you're writing HDL code and aren't sure how the synthesizer can turn the specific constructs into hardware, it's entirely likely that it can't. A common misconception about both VHDL and Verilog is that they make it trivial for programmers to become hardware developers. Despite all of the hoopla over "high level synthesis", the reality is that if you don't know how to design hardware using gates and flip-flops, anything you try to build in an HDL, even with high-level synthesis, is likely to either not work, or to be extremely inefficient. The parallelism that Paul described in his example is one of the hardest concepts for programmers new to hardware design to grasp. Verilog has an innate distinction between "wires" and "registers". VHDL just has signals. The idiom for a register in VHDL is: process (clock) begin if rising_edge (clock) then b <= a; end if; end process; This shows a signal assignment (b <= a) as a sequential statement, which occurs only when the condition (rising edge of clock) is met. Outside a process, a signal assignment is a concurrent statement, and happens all of the time. Here's an example of a VHDL process that works perfectly well in simulation, but probably not at all in synthesis: process (clock) begin if clock'event then b <= a; end if; end process; That process models a register that is clocked on both edges of the clock input, e.g., any time the clock signal changes. That's easy to simulate, but difficult to synthesize as generally speaking no flip-flops that clock on both edges are available. Another example of a non-synthesizable VHDL construct is: b <= a after 15 ns; That isn't synthesizable because there isn't any time delay element available in logic synthesis. The only way to do it is to have some clock with a cycle time that is a submultiple of 15 ns, and to use a shift register or counter clocked by that to implement the delay. The synthesizer won't do that for you; you have to specify it explicitly. Historically, it seemed that ASIC designers have preferred Verilog, while FPGA designers have preferred VHDL. I'm not sure that's nearly as true as it once was. It's claimed, and perhaps may even be true, that Verilog is easier to learn than VHDL. I still advise learning VHDL first. If you need to know both, it's my opinion that it's easier to learn Verilog after knowing VHDL than vice versa. My favorite VHDL book is Peter Ashenden's _Designer's Guide to VHDL_. I'm not going to claim that it's a particularly great example to study, but one of my recent VHDL projects was to implement IEEE-488 (aka GPIB or HP-IB) in an FPGA: https://github.com/brouhaha/gpib I coded all of the IEEE-488 function state machines other than the newfangled no-handshake transfers, which almost no equipment supports. So far I have only actually tested the L, T, SH, and AH functions, which are the key interface functions required for data transfer, and the only ones that are fully implemented by normal IEEE-488 interface chips (e.g., TI TMS9914, Intel 8291, Motorola MC68488, NEC uPD7210). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 20 22:34:03 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:34:03 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9053e686-ebdd-8bc0-8633-c123ad146bab@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/20/2016 9:00 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > Altera Cyclone has 9 bit byte lanes, so getting 36 bit memory is no > problem. Internal memory only. My other pet-peave is that every thing is point and click wizard for any useful modules. Need a rom module or adder module, point and click no portable code. Ben. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 22:43:45 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:43:45 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <9053e686-ebdd-8bc0-8633-c123ad146bab@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <9053e686-ebdd-8bc0-8633-c123ad146bab@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:34 PM, ben wrote: > My other pet-peave is that every thing is point and click wizard for any > useful modules. Need a rom module or adder module, point and click no > portable code. I predominantly use Xilinx, and I don't use much point-and-click at all. I do all my HDL editing in emacs, including instantiating any of the Xilinx-provided IP blocks. My main interaction with the Xilinx software (whether ISE or Vivado) is to click the "generate bitstream" button. It's even possible to do that from the command line or a Makefile, but I haven't bothered. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 20 22:53:09 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 20:53:09 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> Are you going for the 6600 CPU with PPU or just the CPU itself? The 6400 CPU, on the other hand was one of the initial proof of concept targets when Neil Lincoln at (then) ADL and later ETA was playing with his "box of Chiclets" IC concept. To the best of my knowledge, a 6600 was not attempted. Even then (in the 1970s) the small footprint was amazing. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 20 23:07:01 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 22:07:01 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <9053e686-ebdd-8bc0-8633-c123ad146bab@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00c51491-2b1f-3ae5-24b3-589c5c62d357@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/20/2016 9:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:34 PM, ben wrote: >> My other pet-peave is that every thing is point and click wizard for any >> useful modules. Need a rom module or adder module, point and click no >> portable code. > > I predominantly use Xilinx, and I don't use much point-and-click at > all. I do all my HDL editing in emacs, including instantiating any of > the Xilinx-provided IP blocks. My main interaction with the Xilinx > software (whether ISE or Vivado) is to click the "generate bitstream" > button. It's even possible to do that from the command line or a > Makefile, but I haven't bothered. > Do you use Static or Dynamic ram with the FPGA's? Ben. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 00:01:40 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 23:01:40 -0600 Subject: FPGA I/O and external memory (was Re: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs?) Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:07 PM, ben wrote: > Do you use Static or Dynamic ram with the FPGA's? I've done both. You indicated that you wanted 5V I/O. AFAIK, there haven't been any new FPGAs made in many years that have even 5V-tolerant I/O, let alone actual 5V I/O. Some really old FPGAs may still be in production, but are not very cost-effective. The latest midrange to high-end FPGAs aren't even 3.3V-tolerant. However, the economy FPGAs such as Spartan 6 and Artix 7 still support 3.3V I/O, and are quite inexpensive for the amount of resources provided. For 5V-tolerance, it is usually adequate to use 3.3V I/O with series resistors to limit the current. Xilinx specifies a maximum rated current for the clamp diodes. This works fine when interfacing actual TTL (or TTL-compatible MOS) parts. It is NOT adequate for driving 5V CMOS, such as CD4000 series, because the FPGA won't drive above 3.3V, and the 5V CMOS inputs typically are specified for Vih min of 90% of Vdd, which is 4.5V. The series resistor does slow down the signal, which usually isn't a problem with TTL since TTL is quite slow by FPGA standards. Where it is a problem, an nFET voltage clamp can be used instead. From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 03:18:05 2016 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 01:18:05 -0700 Subject: DEC KS10 implementation - was CDC 6600 emulation In-Reply-To: <00c51491-2b1f-3ae5-24b3-589c5c62d357@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <9053e686-ebdd-8bc0-8633-c123ad146bab@jetnet.ab.ca> <00c51491-2b1f-3ae5-24b3-589c5c62d357@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9d2922ee-1043-cea7-1058-1ac828971aa5@gmail.com> On 6/20/2016 9:07 PM, ben wrote: > On 6/20/2016 9:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:34 PM, ben >> wrote: >>> My other pet-peave is that every thing is point and click wizard >>> for any useful modules. Need a rom module or adder module, point >>> and click no portable code. >> >> I predominantly use Xilinx, and I don't use much point-and-click >> at all. I do all my HDL editing in emacs, including instantiating >> any of the Xilinx-provided IP blocks. My main interaction with the >> Xilinx software (whether ISE or Vivado) is to click the "generate >> bitstream" button. It's even possible to do that from the command >> line or a Makefile, but I haven't bothered. >> > Do you use Static or Dynamic ram with the FPGA's? Ben. Another example - The KS10 FPGA uses 36-bit wide 166 MHz synchronous static RAM (SSRAM) for main memory. Main memory is as fast as the "Fast ACs". I didn't bother to implement cache (why bother?) and the Cache Diagnostic still whines that things that should not be cached are being cached... Most good tools can infer about everything from a well written HDL description. This includes single port and multi-port memory and includes RAM and ROM. The less tool-specific things that you use, the more portable your design is. The only IP block that I regularly use is a phased-locked-loop block. The DEC KS10 used a lot of asynchronous parts (memory, FIFOs/SILOs, one-shots, delay lines, RC delays, etc) that don't map very well to modern components - especially FPGAs. I've elected to redesign circuitry as necessary to use the FPGA resources. Others have elected to retain the original design as close as possible and accept the consequences. The KS10 FPGA is at: http://www.techtravels.org/?page_id=656 https://github.com/KS10FPGA/KS10FPGA The ALU out of the KS10 FPGA describes a fairly complex circuit containing memory, registers, multiplexers, shifters, adders, including an am2901 4-bit slice processor-based ALU all written using generic Verilog. Also the HDL description has trace tags back to the card, schematic sheet, and reference designators of the original design - if you'd like to compare the two. The KS10 FPGA ALU design can be viewed at: https://github.com/KS10FPGA/KS10FPGA/blob/master/fpga/ks10/cpu/alu.v Regarding simulation - a full Verilog simulation of the DEC RP06 disk diagnostic (DSRPA) requires about two and a half weeks to complete on my fastest computer. That's maybe not suprising because that simulates the entire CPU running the diagnostic program, memory, the unibus adapters, the RH11 disk controller, the console terminal, and eight RP06 disk drives. When run on the target FPGA, the DSRPA diagnostic completes in slightly less than 9 minutes. Rob. doyle (at) cox (dot) net From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Jun 21 04:56:35 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:56:35 +0200 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160621095635.GA25116@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 01:35:46PM -0600, Swift Griggs wrote: [...] > Why are folks referring to "Verilogging" and "doing a verilog" on older > chips. Is there some way you can stuff an IC into a socket or alligator clip > a bunch of tiny leads onto it and then "map" it somehow into Verilog? Only for trivial chips that do not maintain (much) state, such as ROMs and 74xx chips which (almost) always generate the same output for a given set of inputs, so it is possible to exhaustively search all of the possible states. Useful chips use RTL[0] designs which contain registers (aka latches, flip-flops, etc) that hold internal state. The outputs now vary not only on the inputs but also on the registers, and there are far to many states to be able to search them all. An example of a chip that makes heavy use of registers is a CPU itself, and it is not plausible to try and automatically figure out the instruction set of a novel CPU based just on its bus interface. In practice, one would hoover up as much documentation as possible and come up with a prototype in HDL that implements the inferred spec, then compare it against how the real chip works. This will almost certainly not work first time, so one then gets to fix the bugs and iterate until the copy is good enough for the given application. This is the sort of thing that effortlessly soaks up man-years of effort. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register-transfer_level From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 08:46:17 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:46:17 +0200 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa Message-ID: >From the discussions around Y Combinator's Alto restoration... (Some may not know that the founder of Y Combinator is Paul Graham, using some of the money Yahoo! paid him for Viaweb, which became Yahoo Stores. PG is a Lisp champion and evangelist.) The Alto restoration is being discussed on Hacker News, Y Combinator's very successful forums: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929396 This comment struck me: ? Animats 2 days ago I just looked in some boxes I haven't opened in decades. I have "Mesa Language Manual, Version 5.0, April 1979". If the people with the Alto need this, let me know. If the world had used Mesa instead of C, computing would have been far less buggy. Mesa was a hard-compiled language, but it had concurrency, monitors, co-routines ("ports", similar to Go channels), strong type safety, and a sane way to pass arrays around. In the 1970s. (I should donate this stuff to the Computer Museum. I just found the original DEC Small Computer Manual, many 1960s UNIVAC mainframe manuals, and a reel of UNIVAC I steel magnetic tape.) ? I knew that the original Smalltalk boxes weren't Smalltalk all the way down to the metal, and that there was an OS and language, Mesa, underneath... but I didn't know it was used for anything much *else* or that some considered it important. Anyone here know or remember Mesa? I'd like to hear more about it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From alan at alanlee.org Tue Jun 21 09:12:56 2016 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:12:56 -0400 Subject: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <20160620210533.GA23088@loomcom.com> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <20160620210533.GA23088@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <1024f36c70664750eaada06d4eb57186@alanlee.org> Verilator is another good tool for doing functional/behavioral simulation of Verilog with a C/C++ test frame-work. -Alan On 2016-06-20 17:05, Seth Morabito wrote: > * On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 04:19:56PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I haven't looked for open source Verilog simulators. > > I've used Icarus Verilog ('iverilog') in the past. It's pretty bare > bones, but you can feed the output into gnuplot and make reasonable > diagrams from it. > >> paul > > -Seth From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jun 21 09:17:18 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:17:18 -0400 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-06-21 9:46 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>From the discussions around Y Combinator's Alto restoration... > > (Some may not know that the founder of Y Combinator is Paul Graham, > using some of the money Yahoo! paid him for Viaweb, which became Yahoo > Stores. PG is a Lisp champion and evangelist.) > > The Alto restoration is being discussed on Hacker News, Y Combinator's > very successful forums: > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929396 > > This comment struck me: > > ? > Animats 2 days ago > > I just looked in some boxes I haven't opened in decades. I have "Mesa > Language Manual, Version 5.0, April 1979". If the people with the Alto > need this, let me know. > > If the world had used Mesa instead of C, computing would have been far > less buggy. That's for certain. It's one of several systems programming languages with safety: the Solo operating system in Concurrent Pascal is another example. > Mesa was a hard-compiled language, but it had concurrency, > monitors, co-routines ("ports", similar to Go channels), strong type > safety, and a sane way to pass arrays around. In the 1970s. > > (I should donate this stuff to the Computer Museum. I just found the Scan & publish the documents first, if that can be done without guillotining -- because they won't. [Actually if anyone knows who accepts paper documents, please comment; currently I know Jason Scott / Internet Archive does? I plan to scan a lot of what I have then divest the paper.] > original DEC Small Computer Manual, many 1960s UNIVAC mainframe > manuals, and a reel of UNIVAC I steel magnetic tape.) > ? > > I knew that the original Smalltalk boxes weren't Smalltalk all the way > down to the metal, and that there was an OS and language, Mesa, > underneath... but I didn't know it was used for anything much *else* > or that some considered it important. > > Anyone here know or remember Mesa? I'd like to hear more about it. > The operating system "Pilot" was written in Mesa. A relevant paper is reprinted in Brinch Hansen's "Classic Operating Systems": "Pilot: An Operating System for a Personal Computer" (1980). Another paper cited in the book is "Early experience with Mesa," Geschke, C.M., J.H. Morris Jr., and E.H. Satterthwaite, Comm. ACM 20, 8 (Aug 1977). (later, Geschke was a cofounder of Adobe Systems). --Toby From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 21 09:25:47 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:25:47 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 20, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Are you going for the 6600 CPU with PPU or just the CPU itself? The whole thing. The intent is to be able to run code, and you need PPUs for that. Besides, part of the motivation was to understand esoteric details of how PPUs work. The PPUs are actually straightforward; I have those running. The CPU is trickier, and of course much larger. paul From aswood at t-online.de Tue Jun 21 09:36:28 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:36:28 +0200 (MEST) Subject: Sun4 370 PSU Maintenance/Schematics Message-ID: <1466519788618.4343299.de7b04aa4dc080090d1a82fd51dc56a9cda51909@spica.telekom.de> Hello all, I do have an Symbolics UX1200 plugged into a Sun4 370 host. Before powering the host, just to be secure, I'd like to check the psu - or if the psu will be broken, I'd like to try to fix it. Yesterday I'd a look into the psu - very complicated layout! Is there any known documentation, servicing and maintenance documentation or schematics for psus used in Sun server/workstation available, of course esp. for psus used in Sun4 370 systems? -- Andreas ? From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 10:09:23 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:09:23 -0700 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <576958A3.2050806@gmail.com> On 6/21/16 6:46 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >From the discussions around Y Combinator's Alto restoration... > > (Some may not know that the founder of Y Combinator is Paul Graham, > using some of the money Yahoo! paid him for Viaweb, which became Yahoo > Stores. PG is a Lisp champion and evangelist.) > > The Alto restoration is being discussed on Hacker News, Y Combinator's > very successful forums: > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929396 > > This comment struck me: > > ? > Animats 2 days ago > > I just looked in some boxes I haven't opened in decades. I have "Mesa > Language Manual, Version 5.0, April 1979". If the people with the Alto > need this, let me know. > > If the world had used Mesa instead of C, computing would have been far > less buggy. Mesa was a hard-compiled language, but it had concurrency, > monitors, co-routines ("ports", similar to Go channels), strong type > safety, and a sane way to pass arrays around. In the 1970s. > > (I should donate this stuff to the Computer Museum. I just found the > original DEC Small Computer Manual, many 1960s UNIVAC mainframe > manuals, and a reel of UNIVAC I steel magnetic tape.) > ? > > I knew that the original Smalltalk boxes weren't Smalltalk all the way > down to the metal, and that there was an OS and language, Mesa, > underneath... but I didn't know it was used for anything much *else* > or that some considered it important. The "original" Smalltalk box(*), the Alto, wasn't Mesa-based. (Mesa was originally developed on the Alto, sort of in parallel with Smalltalk). Smalltalk was originally written in Alto assembly language (which was basically Data General Nova assembly) and was later implemented in Alto microcode and became self-hosting/bootstrapping (it was written in itself). Smalltalk was never written in Mesa, though on the later D-machines it ran inside a Mesa-based environment. (*) The original Smalltalk prototype was written in BASIC on a Data General Nova. It wasn't very fast. > > Anyone here know or remember Mesa? I'd like to hear more about it. > Mesa became the basis for much of the software on Xerox's later D-machines (the Star and its successors). It was compiled into a byte-coded stack-based machine code (the bytecode interpreter was implemented in microcode on the Alto and later machines) and apparently the code density was pretty remarkable (from what I've read). The Viewpoint GUI and applications were written in it. It was a strongly-typed high-level language with exceptions. I don't (yet) have any direct experience in using the language, but it's something I want to get around to one of these days. - Josh From isking at uw.edu Tue Jun 21 10:14:53 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:14:53 -0700 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: <576958A3.2050806@gmail.com> References: <576958A3.2050806@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Mesa became the basis for much of the software on Xerox's later > D-machines (the Star and its successors). It was compiled into a > byte-coded stack-based machine code (the bytecode interpreter was > implemented in microcode on the Alto and later machines) and apparently the > code density was pretty remarkable (from what I've read). The Viewpoint > GUI and applications were written in it. It was a strongly-typed > high-level language with exceptions. I don't (yet) have any direct > experience in using the language, but it's something I want to get around > to one of these days. > > - Josh > ISTR that BravoX was written in Mesa. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From leec2124 at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 10:15:38 2016 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:15:38 -0700 Subject: DEC KS10 implementation - was CDC 6600 emulation In-Reply-To: <9d2922ee-1043-cea7-1058-1ac828971aa5@gmail.com> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <9053e686-ebdd-8bc0-8633-c123ad146bab@jetnet.ab.ca> <00c51491-2b1f-3ae5-24b3-589c5c62d357@jetnet.ab.ca> <9d2922ee-1043-cea7-1058-1ac828971aa5@gmail.com> Message-ID: "When run on the target FPGA, the DSRPA diagnostic completes in slightly less than 9 minutes." Any idea what the run-time would be a on a real KS10? Lee C. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:18 AM, Rob Doyle wrote: > On 6/20/2016 9:07 PM, ben wrote: > >> On 6/20/2016 9:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:34 PM, ben >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My other pet-peave is that every thing is point and click wizard >>>> for any useful modules. Need a rom module or adder module, point >>>> and click no portable code. >>>> >>> >>> I predominantly use Xilinx, and I don't use much point-and-click >>> at all. I do all my HDL editing in emacs, including instantiating >>> any of the Xilinx-provided IP blocks. My main interaction with the >>> Xilinx software (whether ISE or Vivado) is to click the "generate >>> bitstream" button. It's even possible to do that from the command >>> line or a Makefile, but I haven't bothered. >>> >>> Do you use Static or Dynamic ram with the FPGA's? Ben. >> > > Another example - > > The KS10 FPGA uses 36-bit wide 166 MHz synchronous static RAM (SSRAM) > for main memory. Main memory is as fast as the "Fast ACs". I didn't > bother to implement cache (why bother?) and the Cache Diagnostic still > whines that things that should not be cached are being cached... > > Most good tools can infer about everything from a well written HDL > description. This includes single port and multi-port memory and > includes RAM and ROM. The less tool-specific things that you use, the > more portable your design is. > > The only IP block that I regularly use is a phased-locked-loop block. > > The DEC KS10 used a lot of asynchronous parts (memory, FIFOs/SILOs, > one-shots, delay lines, RC delays, etc) that don't map very well to > modern components - especially FPGAs. I've elected to redesign circuitry > as necessary to use the FPGA resources. Others have elected to retain > the original design as close as possible and accept the consequences. > > The KS10 FPGA is at: > http://www.techtravels.org/?page_id=656 > https://github.com/KS10FPGA/KS10FPGA > > The ALU out of the KS10 FPGA describes a fairly complex circuit > containing memory, registers, multiplexers, shifters, adders, including > an am2901 4-bit slice processor-based ALU all written using generic > Verilog. Also the HDL description has trace tags back to the card, > schematic sheet, and reference designators of the original design - if > you'd like to compare the two. > > The KS10 FPGA ALU design can be viewed at: > https://github.com/KS10FPGA/KS10FPGA/blob/master/fpga/ks10/cpu/alu.v > > Regarding simulation - a full Verilog simulation of the DEC RP06 disk > diagnostic (DSRPA) requires about two and a half weeks to complete on my > fastest computer. That's maybe not suprising because that simulates the > entire CPU running the diagnostic program, memory, the unibus adapters, > the RH11 disk controller, the console terminal, and eight RP06 disk > drives. When run on the target FPGA, the DSRPA diagnostic completes in > slightly less than 9 minutes. > > Rob. > doyle (at) cox (dot) net > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 10:24:44 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:24:44 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> On 06/21/2016 07:25 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Chuck Guzis >> wrote: >> >> Are you going for the 6600 CPU with PPU or just the CPU itself? > > The whole thing. The intent is to be able to run code, and you need > PPUs for that. Besides, part of the motivation was to understand > esoteric details of how PPUs work. The PPUs are actually > straightforward; I have those running. The CPU is trickier, and of > course much larger. I take it that your PPs use the "one ALU, ten memories" model of the 6600 and not the independent PPUs of the 7600 and 180? Will your 6600 have an option for ECS? --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 10:25:07 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:25:07 -0700 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: References: <576958A3.2050806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57695C53.60807@gmail.com> On 6/21/16 8:14 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >>> Mesa became the basis for much of the software on Xerox's later >> D-machines (the Star and its successors). It was compiled into a >> byte-coded stack-based machine code (the bytecode interpreter was >> implemented in microcode on the Alto and later machines) and apparently the >> code density was pretty remarkable (from what I've read). The Viewpoint >> GUI and applications were written in it. It was a strongly-typed >> high-level language with exceptions. I don't (yet) have any direct >> experience in using the language, but it's something I want to get around >> to one of these days. >> >> - Josh >> > ISTR that BravoX was written in Mesa. -- Ian > Yes it was, as was MazeWar and the Laurel mail client (and many other things). - Josh From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 21 10:35:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:35:27 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0E6B4570-0B02-49A3-B70D-0CEEC644A516@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 06/21/2016 07:25 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Jun 20, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Chuck Guzis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Are you going for the 6600 CPU with PPU or just the CPU itself? >> >> The whole thing. The intent is to be able to run code, and you need >> PPUs for that. Besides, part of the motivation was to understand >> esoteric details of how PPUs work. The PPUs are actually >> straightforward; I have those running. The CPU is trickier, and of >> course much larger. > > I take it that your PPs use the "one ALU, ten memories" model of the > 6600 and not the independent PPUs of the 7600 and 180? Correct, because my model is a gate level transcription of the original design. I'm NOT building this model from the system functional specification, but rather from the actual module schematics and wire lists. > Will your 6600 have an option for ECS? That's the intent. This is tricky because I have not seen wire lists for the ECS coupler. I should be able to do without the ECS controller (modeling ECS functionally at that interface point). But the ECS coupler contains details that the CPU hooks into, and also some semi-unrelated details like central/monitor exchange jump processing. There are block diagrams, and those will have to serve if all else fails, but that means reverse engineering the module level detail (or, more precisely, constructing a functionally equivalent set of module level details). I keep hoping that some day the missing details will be found. Similarly, there are some other details that are missing; the PPU wire lists predate the central/monitor exchange jump feature so that too would have to be reconstructed from less detailed information. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 21 10:47:39 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:47:39 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> , <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> Message-ID: One has to realize that all complex chips are done in Verilog or VHDL. Many old designs in processors can be re-implemented from timing and bus diagrams. This is no longer possible with todays processors like Intel or AMD processors. The complexity of possible sequential events are more than is practical to try to analyze from the pins. One can implement an instruction set but you'll never get close to the bus activity of current processors. I would say that the most important part of either language is the ability to describe the time of simultaneous events. This is unlike most programs written in C or such. Of course, one can write a simulation language in C. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 8:24:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? On 06/21/2016 07:25 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Chuck Guzis >> wrote: >> >> Are you going for the 6600 CPU with PPU or just the CPU itself? > > The whole thing. The intent is to be able to run code, and you need > PPUs for that. Besides, part of the motivation was to understand > esoteric details of how PPUs work. The PPUs are actually > straightforward; I have those running. The CPU is trickier, and of > course much larger. I take it that your PPs use the "one ALU, ten memories" model of the 6600 and not the independent PPUs of the 7600 and 180? Will your 6600 have an option for ECS? --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 21 11:06:46 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: <576958A3.2050806@gmail.com> from Josh Dersch at "Jun 21, 16 08:09:23 am" Message-ID: <201606211606.u5LG6kJQ2229720@floodgap.com> > (*) The original Smalltalk prototype was written in BASIC on a Data > General Nova. It wasn't very fast. Wow. Does this code exist anywhere? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Just another Sojourner of the Dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) --------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 11:07:02 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:07:02 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <0E6B4570-0B02-49A3-B70D-0CEEC644A516@comcast.net> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> <0E6B4570-0B02-49A3-B70D-0CEEC644A516@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57696626.7010500@sydex.com> On 06/21/2016 08:35 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > There are block diagrams, and those will have to serve if all else > fails, but that means reverse engineering the module level detail > (or, more precisely, constructing a functionally equivalent set of > module level details). I keep hoping that some day the missing > details will be found. Similarly, there are some other details that > are missing; the PPU wire lists predate the central/monitor exchange > jump feature so that too would have to be reconstructed from less > detailed information. Wasn't CEJ/MEJ a field-installable ECO? Maybe there's paper on that somewhere. ECS to me would be the real bugger, since it isn't just a box of core sitting off to the side. On the Cybers, didn't it also include the ILR? That was too many years ago. I do remember that it made the business of RCH/DCH much simpler in PPRES--no need to go through MTR. Well, when you're done with the 6600, you can work up a STAR 100 :) I'm not aware of even a software emulator being available for that one. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 21 11:12:11 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa Message-ID: <20160621161212.01BEE18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch >> ISTR that BravoX was written in Mesa. -- Ian > Yes it was, as was MazeWar ?? There was a MazeWar on the Alto, early on, and I'm not sure that version was in Mesa. Maybe someone re-implemned it in Mesa for some of the later machines? (Of course, all the Xerox ones were inspired by the much earlier Imlac one.) Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 11:17:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:17:41 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <576968A5.3050005@sydex.com> On 06/21/2016 08:47 AM, dwight wrote: > I would say that the most important part of either language is the > ability to describe the time of simultaneous events. This is unlike > most programs written in C or such. Of course, one can write a > simulation language in C. I tend to think of Verilog/VHDL/SystemC as being first cousins to the much older event simulation languages, Simscript Simula and GPSS. I believe that in the early days of LSI, one or more of them were actually used in the design process. If you've used any of the aforementioned simulation languages, then transitioning to VHDL/Verilog is much easier. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 21 11:24:23 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:24:23 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <57696626.7010500@sydex.com> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> <0E6B4570-0B02-49A3-B70D-0CEEC644A516@comcast.net> <57696626.7010500@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 21, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 06/21/2016 08:35 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> There are block diagrams, and those will have to serve if all else >> fails, but that means reverse engineering the module level detail >> (or, more precisely, constructing a functionally equivalent set of >> module level details). I keep hoping that some day the missing >> details will be found. Similarly, there are some other details that >> are missing; the PPU wire lists predate the central/monitor exchange >> jump feature so that too would have to be reconstructed from less >> detailed information. > > Wasn't CEJ/MEJ a field-installable ECO? Maybe there's paper on that > somewhere. Early on it may have been an ECO; later it became "standard option 10104 C/D". An ECO document would certainly serve, but I haven't seen that either. > ECS to me would be the real bugger, since it isn't just a box of core > sitting off to the side. On the Cybers, didn't it also include the ILR? > That was too many years ago. I do remember that it made the business > of RCH/DCH much simpler in PPRES--no need to go through MTR. I don't recognize "ILR". The control for central exchange (XJ instruction) is is largely in the ECS coupler partly because some of the exchange package state (RAX/FLX/MA) lives there, as does the monitor mode flag. Also partly because XJ and RE/WE are 01 opcodes that use the same address calculation. I think once you get past the coupler into ECS itself and the ECS controller, there aren't any execution-related bits. Not unless you count the Flag Register, which is a set of mutexes operated on by ECS read/write operations. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 21 11:38:09 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:38:09 -0700 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: <20160621161212.01BEE18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160621161212.01BEE18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6cbd5043-c4e8-5b06-24df-e73b4b592198@bitsavers.org> On 6/21/16 9:12 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I'm not sure that version > was in Mesa. I am, since I have the code. From aswood at t-online.de Tue Jun 21 11:40:58 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:40:58 +0200 Subject: Sun4 370 PSU Maintenance/Schematics In-Reply-To: <1466519788618.4343299.de7b04aa4dc080090d1a82fd51dc56a9cda51909@spica.telekom.de> References: <1466519788618.4343299.de7b04aa4dc080090d1a82fd51dc56a9cda51909@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: It's a Zyrtec 925Watts psu. Any Zyrtec schematics, service or repair manuals anywhere? I do like the Astec service manuals, e.g. for the SMBX 36xx series psus. -- Andreas > Am 21.06.2016 um 16:36 schrieb "aswood at t-online.de" : > > Hello all, > > I do have an Symbolics UX1200 plugged into a Sun4 370 host. > > Before powering the host, just to be secure, I'd like to check the psu - or > if the psu will be broken, I'd like to try to fix it. > Yesterday I'd a look into the psu - very complicated layout! > > Is there any known documentation, servicing and maintenance documentation > or schematics for psus used in Sun server/workstation available, of course > esp. for psus used in Sun4 370 systems? > > -- Andreas > ? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 21 11:49:46 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:49:46 -0700 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: <57695C53.60807@gmail.com> References: <576958A3.2050806@gmail.com> <57695C53.60807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39be0214-3bfd-0926-6400-265602a0c70d@bitsavers.org> On 6/21/16 8:25 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Yes it was, as was MazeWar and the Laurel mail client (and many other things). > Alto software evolved throughout the 70's. It started out bare-bones as they bootstrapped themselves up. Mesa was developed in parallel, as was Smalltalk. Mesa is an Algol-like strongly typed language with the notion of modules and with internal and external interface. This is all documented on bitsavers and in the source tree at CHM. Mesa is a bit too big to run comfortably even on the max memory Alto with two disk drives. By the time the language was in wider use they had D-machines to run it on. SDD stayed with Mesa for their product development, PARC CSL evolved Mesa into Cedar, with things like integrated garbage collection. The build system used in XDE and the D-machines is extremely powerful. Builds were completely distributed across many servers with the distributed build system managing the packaging and dependencies. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 12:02:31 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:02:31 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> <0E6B4570-0B02-49A3-B70D-0CEEC644A516@comcast.net> <57696626.7010500@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57697327.5050303@sydex.com> On 06/21/2016 09:24 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't recognize "ILR". The control for central exchange (XJ > instruction) is is largely in the ECS coupler partly because some of > the exchange package state (RAX/FLX/MA) lives there, as does the > monitor mode flag. Also partly because XJ and RE/WE are 01 opcodes > that use the same address calculation. I think once you get past the > coupler into ECS itself and the ECS controller, there aren't any > execution-related bits. Not unless you count the Flag Register, > which is a set of mutexes operated on by ECS read/write operations. ILR = "Interlock Register" It was mutex setup, but on a per-system, rather than as a global ECS thing like the flags register--and accessible only to PPs. Any word in it could be read by any PP. Either 64 or 128 bits located on PP channel 15 (octal). The only mention that I could find of it in the bitsavers collection was for the Cyber 74, but it was on lower Cybers as well. http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/60347400N_Cyber70_Model74_Comp_Sys_Vol1_Jun77.pdf PDF page 48. I don't know if it was a retrofit for older 6000 systems, but it would seem to make sense if it was. It simplified the RCH/DCH PP channel reservation calls enormously. --Chuck From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 12:46:45 2016 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:46:45 -0700 Subject: DEC KS10 implementation - was CDC 6600 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <9053e686-ebdd-8bc0-8633-c123ad146bab@jetnet.ab.ca> <00c51491-2b1f-3ae5-24b3-589c5c62d357@jetnet.ab.ca> <9d2922ee-1043-cea7-1058-1ac828971aa5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/21/2016 8:15 AM, Lee Courtney wrote: > "When run on the target FPGA, the DSRPA diagnostic completes in > slightly less than 9 minutes." > > Any idea what the run-time would be a on a real KS10? > > Lee C. I don't know. I suspect it wouldn't be very different. The KS10 FPGA CPU is about 4x faster than the DEC KS10. http://www.techtravels.org/KS10FPGA/DSKFA.pdf Having said that, the RP06 Disk can be conditionally compiled in one of two modes: "fast and loose" and "slow but accurate". The "slow but accurate" mode is required to pass many of the DSRPA diagnostics. The FPGA simulates head motion (seek times), disk rotation (search times), and data transfer rates. I'm guessing that the physical delays in the disk drive dominate the timing of the DSRPA diagnostic - and those delays should be pretty accurate. The RP06 uses a Secure Digital Card (SDHC) as media. The "fast and loose" mode just uses the SD Card with very little external delays. That seems to be good enough for everything but everything except the diagnostics and is consistent with the SIMH implementation. https://github.com/KS10FPGA/KS10FPGA/issues/8 Rob. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 21 13:15:23 2016 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 20:15:23 +0200 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <17c31b70-37e6-ff63-32e9-379f7517e2fb@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 20.06.16 um 15:20 schrieb Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de: > So: if someone owning a 3D printer and a PRM-85 board is interested > in helping me to refine the design by making a test print I could > supply the STL files for upper and lower shells. I highly recommend to contact your local hackerspace: https://stratum0.org/wiki/Hauptseite They offer 3D printers for use: https://stratum0.org/wiki/3D-Drucker There you will find several people experienced with 3D printing and willing to help you. -- tsch??, Jochen From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 21 13:53:20 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:53:20 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/21/2016 9:47 AM, dwight wrote: > One has to realize that all complex chips are done in Verilog or > VHDL. Many old designs in processors can be re-implemented from > timing and bus diagrams. Where do you get this info? Most of the little stuff I have seen it is still graphic layout and Intel (or IBM ...) is not going to tell you their design style. > This is no longer possible with todays processors like Intel or AMD > processors. The complexity of possible sequential events are more > than is practical to try to analyze from the pins. > > One can implement an instruction set but you'll never get close to > the bus activity of current processors. Who knows what secrets the cache holds? > I would say that the most important part of either language is the > ability to describe the time of simultaneous events. This is unlike > most programs written in C or such. Of course, one can write a > simulation language in C. And a useless feature in my view. Real hardware has real delays and simulation is prone errors translating to the real hardware. Ben. > Dwight > PS: With the speed of modern transistors routing capacitance and large die size; I think Vacuum tube/Drum memory might be better model for modern computing. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jun 21 14:27:58 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:27:58 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse Message-ID: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> An old friend of mine in GA is slimming down his warehouse. I know a long time ago people sent me some pics and lists of things wanted, but that was a long time ago. If you are looking for old servers, big blue IBM things, DEC stuff, etc., please take a few minutes to send the following info to oldthingswantednow at gmail.com The name of the item A short description A link to a pic, or attach a pic What you want to pay for it The expected condition (tested, old and dirty is fine, etc.) His health is not the best, but he wants this stuff to go to people who will appreciate it, rather than by the pound. He will do his best to answer everyone. Inventory ranges from old typewriters to mainframes, and everything in between. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 21 14:35:04 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:35:04 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> Message-ID: <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> Is there any sort of list of what he has or are we just to send out our ?wish list? and see if he has it? TTFN - Guy > On Jun 21, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > An old friend of mine in GA is slimming down his warehouse. I know a long > time ago people sent me some pics and lists of things wanted, but that was a > long time ago. If you are looking for old servers, big blue IBM things, DEC > stuff, etc., please take a few minutes to send the following info to > oldthingswantednow at gmail.com > > > > The name of the item > > A short description > > A link to a pic, or attach a pic > > What you want to pay for it > > The expected condition (tested, old and dirty is fine, etc.) > > His health is not the best, but he wants this stuff to go to people who will > appreciate it, rather than by the pound. > > He will do his best to answer everyone. > > > > Inventory ranges from old typewriters to mainframes, and everything in > between. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jun 21 14:38:21 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:38:21 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> He does not have a list. Warehouse is about 50k sq feet, and was started in the 1970s. Like I said, his health is not good, but he wants to find a good home for these. If sending lists does not work, I can ask him to pick some things out and send me description and pics so I can post here? He does not have pricing in mind, so please be fair when you ask or offer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor Jr Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 2:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: old friend is slimming down the warehouse Is there any sort of list of what he has or are we just to send out our ?wish list? and see if he has it? TTFN - Guy > On Jun 21, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > An old friend of mine in GA is slimming down his warehouse. I know a > long time ago people sent me some pics and lists of things wanted, but > that was a long time ago. If you are looking for old servers, big blue > IBM things, DEC stuff, etc., please take a few minutes to send the > following info to oldthingswantednow at gmail.com > > > > The name of the item > > A short description > > A link to a pic, or attach a pic > > What you want to pay for it > > The expected condition (tested, old and dirty is fine, etc.) > > His health is not the best, but he wants this stuff to go to people > who will appreciate it, rather than by the pound. > > He will do his best to answer everyone. > > > > Inventory ranges from old typewriters to mainframes, and everything in > between. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 14:40:09 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:40:09 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> Message-ID: Cindy, I'm in Atlanta... where in GA is he? Maybe I could go meet him somewhere and take pictures? Todd Killingsworth On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > He does not have a list. Warehouse is about 50k sq feet, and was started > in the 1970s. > Like I said, his health is not good, but he wants to find a good home for > these. > If sending lists does not work, I can ask him to pick some things out and > send me description and pics so I can post here? > He does not have pricing in mind, so please be fair when you ask or offer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor Jr > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 2:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: old friend is slimming down the warehouse > > Is there any sort of list of what he has or are we just to send out our > ?wish list? > and see if he has it? > > TTFN - Guy > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Electronics Plus > wrote: > > > > An old friend of mine in GA is slimming down his warehouse. I know a > > long time ago people sent me some pics and lists of things wanted, but > > that was a long time ago. If you are looking for old servers, big blue > > IBM things, DEC stuff, etc., please take a few minutes to send the > > following info to oldthingswantednow at gmail.com > > > > > > > > The name of the item > > > > A short description > > > > A link to a pic, or attach a pic > > > > What you want to pay for it > > > > The expected condition (tested, old and dirty is fine, etc.) > > > > His health is not the best, but he wants this stuff to go to people > > who will appreciate it, rather than by the pound. > > > > He will do his best to answer everyone. > > > > > > > > Inventory ranges from old typewriters to mainframes, and everything in > > between. > > > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > Electronics Plus > > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 21 14:40:32 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Monitor refresh rate query Message-ID: <20160621194032.2F64D18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > It's not the refresh rate that will kill things, but the horizontal > frequency. The high voltage in most CRT monitors (and TVs) is developed > from the scanning signal via a high-voltage "flyboack" transformer > ... > Ultimately, if taken too far, the voltage in the FBT secondary exceeds > the ratings of the winding insulation; an arc develops between windings > and the FBT self-destructs So, with Chuck's explanation (above) in hand, eventually my brain turned on, and I was able to work out what the deal is, and whether my monitor is safe; it also explains the somewhat contradictory CRT monitor manual: HP M50 manual says "Setting the screen resolution/refresh rate combination higher than 1024x768 at 60 Hz can damage the display." Even though the same document lists the vertical frequency range as "50-100 Hz"! They mention both the resolution and "refresh rate" since those two together control the horizontal flyback frequency, which Chuck pointed out as the key. (Well, the line count - 768 - is involved there, not the line length in pixels - although the latter will influence the maximum video bandwith or "dot rate" that needs to be supported - 65 MHz for this particular monitor.) The horizontal retrace frequency is simply the vertical retrace frequency, times the number of scan lines per vertical retrace plus a small slop factor for the actual retrace duration. So my monitor was running 1024x768 - but interlaced, so only 364 lines per screen scan (alternating odd and even lines in successive scans). I was seeing a refresh frequency of 44 Hz - but for full scan of all lines; the actual vertical retrace is being produced at 87 Hz. So the horizontal retrace frequency is about 87 * 364 = ~32 KHz - well within what the monitor can handle (30-49 Khz for the horizontal retrace, per the spec). So the monitor is safe! Probably by the time this monitor came out, the interlaced XGA format had fallen into disuse, and so they didn't need to clarify that "resolution/refresh rate combination higher than 1024x768 at 60 Hz can damage the display" refers to 'progressive' displays, not interlaced. And of course, as previously pointed out, the interlace explains why no LCD displays will work. So I'll have to carefully hoard my remaining video monitors! ;-) Thanks to everyone who helped me work this out... Noel From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 14:42:39 2016 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:42:39 -0700 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Anyone with a 3d printer want to make one for us? > >J Not only do I also own a PRM-85 but I do have part-time access to a 3D printer. If I can get the prototyped models (and the model itself fits within the limits of the printer bed)I can verify that they fit together in an HP 80 series machine (85 in my case)and that the board itself fits inside the enclosure however due to membership restrictions at our local makerspace I cannot use the printer to fulfill any orders, plus they will eat up a lot of filament. -John From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 21 14:47:15 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:47:15 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> Message-ID: <1DEF5A9D-4046-4D43-A2E3-FF40D79FEBC4@shiresoft.com> Yea, I?m just concerned that without some more specific parameters it?s going to be really hard to come up with lists that don?t inundate him. My other big fear is that we?ll ?self censor? and miss something because we figured no one has it. TTFN - Guy > On Jun 21, 2016, at 12:38 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > He does not have a list. Warehouse is about 50k sq feet, and was started in the 1970s. > Like I said, his health is not good, but he wants to find a good home for these. > If sending lists does not work, I can ask him to pick some things out and send me description and pics so I can post here? > He does not have pricing in mind, so please be fair when you ask or offer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor Jr > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 2:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: old friend is slimming down the warehouse > > Is there any sort of list of what he has or are we just to send out our ?wish list? > and see if he has it? > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Jun 21, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: >> >> An old friend of mine in GA is slimming down his warehouse. I know a >> long time ago people sent me some pics and lists of things wanted, but >> that was a long time ago. If you are looking for old servers, big blue >> IBM things, DEC stuff, etc., please take a few minutes to send the >> following info to oldthingswantednow at gmail.com >> >> >> >> The name of the item >> >> A short description >> >> A link to a pic, or attach a pic >> >> What you want to pay for it >> >> The expected condition (tested, old and dirty is fine, etc.) >> >> His health is not the best, but he wants this stuff to go to people >> who will appreciate it, rather than by the pound. >> >> He will do his best to answer everyone. >> >> >> >> Inventory ranges from old typewriters to mainframes, and everything in >> between. >> >> >> >> Cindy Croxton >> >> Electronics Plus >> > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 14:50:24 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:50:24 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> Message-ID: > Cindy, I'm in Atlanta... where in GA is he? Maybe I could go meet him > somewhere and take pictures? Yes, please. Gold star to you if you go. -- Will From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jun 21 14:59:58 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:59:58 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> Message-ID: <00ee01d1cbf7$7d8edb90$78ac92b0$@com> I have sent Todd his contact info. He is willing to let one person come in and take pics and post to the group. He does NOT want to move one or 2 items of the most value; he wants to move out pallets of stuff. He is not closing shop; he just wants to move out some really old equip that has been there for years. He did tell me one of the goodies he has is a Commodore 64 new in the box with the monitor. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 2:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: old friend is slimming down the warehouse > Cindy, I'm in Atlanta... where in GA is he? Maybe I could go meet > him somewhere and take pictures? Yes, please. Gold star to you if you go. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 15:05:02 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:05:02 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <00ee01d1cbf7$7d8edb90$78ac92b0$@com> References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> <00ee01d1cbf7$7d8edb90$78ac92b0$@com> Message-ID: > I have sent Todd his contact info. He is willing to let one person come in and take pics and post to the group. He does NOT want to move one or 2 items of the most value; he wants to move out pallets of stuff. He is not closing shop; he just wants to move out some really old equip that has been there for years. Be sure to tell your friend that the mainframe collectors can certainly make cubic feet of equipment leave the warehouse quickly! -- Will From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 15:08:26 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:08:26 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> <00ee01d1cbf7$7d8edb90$78ac92b0$@com> Message-ID: Cindy - Thanks! I'll get in touch w/him and set up a meeting. Will - Whoa, easy boy! :) I'll get pics and link them up. Todd Killingsworth On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I have sent Todd his contact info. He is willing to let one person come > in and take pics and post to the group. He does NOT want to move one or 2 > items of the most value; he wants to move out pallets of stuff. He is not > closing shop; he just wants to move out some really old equip that has been > there for years. > > Be sure to tell your friend that the mainframe collectors can > certainly make cubic feet of equipment leave the warehouse quickly! > > -- > Will > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 21 15:12:57 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:12:57 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> <00ee01d1cbf7$7d8edb90$78ac92b0$@com> Message-ID: > On Jun 21, 2016, at 1:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I have sent Todd his contact info. He is willing to let one person come in and take pics and post to the group. He does NOT want to move one or 2 items of the most value; he wants to move out pallets of stuff. He is not closing shop; he just wants to move out some really old equip that has been there for years. > > Be sure to tell your friend that the mainframe collectors can > certainly make cubic feet of equipment leave the warehouse quickly! Cubic yards? ;-) Also, if someone is going to take pictures, especially with the mainframe stuff (since in many cases the cabinets/racks are non-descript) it is important to get model number information. TTFN - Guy From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 15:18:31 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:18:31 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> <00ee01d1cbf7$7d8edb90$78ac92b0$@com> Message-ID: <>? Thanks Guy - I'll keep that in mind. If this is a warehouse dive, things may be stacked on top of one another.. I should be able to get model numbers of machines, but cards, specific part # may be difficult. Any other recommendations from the list at large on information to get? Todd Killingsworth On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 1:05 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > > > >> I have sent Todd his contact info. He is willing to let one person come > in and take pics and post to the group. He does NOT want to move one or 2 > items of the most value; he wants to move out pallets of stuff. He is not > closing shop; he just wants to move out some really old equip that has been > there for years. > > > > Be sure to tell your friend that the mainframe collectors can > > certainly make cubic feet of equipment leave the warehouse quickly! > > Cubic yards? ;-) > > Also, if someone is going to take pictures, especially with the mainframe > stuff > (since in many cases the cabinets/racks are non-descript) it is important > to get > model number information. > > TTFN - Guy > > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 15:36:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:36:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <00b301d1cbf3$05163d10$0f42b730$@com> <5EA80AB9-44A8-4F78-93EB-004E1E00EE5C@shiresoft.com> <00c401d1cbf4$7813d740$683b85c0$@com> <00ee01d1cbf7$7d8edb90$78ac92b0$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Any other recommendations from the list at large on information to get? If it says "SGI" or "Silicon Graphics" speak up.... someone is probably going to be interested. -Swift From paul at mcjones.org Tue Jun 21 14:31:34 2016 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:31:34 -0700 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I just looked in some boxes I haven't opened in decades. I have "Mesa > Language Manual, Version 5.0, April 1979". If the people with the Alto > need this, let me know. It?s been scanned: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/mesa/5.0_1979/documentation/CSL_79-3_Mesa_Language_Manual_Version_5.0_Apr79.pdf > ... Mesa was a hard-compiled language, but it had concurrency, > monitors, co-routines ("ports", similar to Go channels), strong type > safety, and a sane way to pass arrays around. ... The designers of the concurrency mechanisms (Butler Lampson and Dave Redell) wrote an excellent paper, which can be downloaded from Lampson?s web site: http://research-srv.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/blampson/23-ProcessesInMesa/Abstract.html > Anyone here know or remember Mesa? I'd like to hear more about it. Thanks to the foresight of Al Kossow and others, the Computer History Museum has a repository of Alto source code online, including the Mesa system and some applications such as the Laurel electronic mail client and the Grapevine distributed mail transport and name service. (The repository also includes a lot of BCPL and a small amount of Smalltalk.) The repository is here: http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org Probably better to start here: http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/xerox-alto-source-code/ http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/xerox_alto_file_system_archive.html Paul McJones From isking at uw.edu Tue Jun 21 14:42:10 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:42:10 -0700 Subject: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even if you never touch an Alto (and I hope that you someday can do so!), it's interesting to look at BCPL, an ancestor of C. I learned to read it fairly well when I was maintaining LCM's first Alto. -- Ian On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Paul McJones wrote: > > I just looked in some boxes I haven't opened in decades. I have "Mesa > > Language Manual, Version 5.0, April 1979". If the people with the Alto > > need this, let me know. > > It?s been scanned: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/mesa/5.0_1979/documentation/CSL_79-3_Mesa_Language_Manual_Version_5.0_Apr79.pdf > > > ... Mesa was a hard-compiled language, but it had concurrency, > > monitors, co-routines ("ports", similar to Go channels), strong type > > safety, and a sane way to pass arrays around. ... > > The designers of the concurrency mechanisms (Butler Lampson and Dave > Redell) wrote an excellent paper, which can be downloaded from Lampson?s > web site: > > > http://research-srv.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/blampson/23-ProcessesInMesa/Abstract.html > > > Anyone here know or remember Mesa? I'd like to hear more about it. > > Thanks to the foresight of Al Kossow and others, the Computer History > Museum has a repository of Alto source code online, including the Mesa > system and some applications such as the Laurel electronic mail client and > the Grapevine distributed mail transport and name service. (The repository > also includes a lot of BCPL and a small amount of Smalltalk.) The > repository is here: > > http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org > > Probably better to start here: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/xerox-alto-source-code/ > http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/xerox_alto_file_system_archive.html > > > Paul McJones > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 16:06:02 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:06:02 -0600 (MDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? Message-ID: To my sorrow, I'd never heard of the CDC 6600 and I barely knew who Control Data was (whippersnapper, I know). I see a lot of traffic about them on the list and I went out to discover "why so cool?" Wikipedia and other spots talk about the features, but I'm trying to understand from folks who put hands to the metal, why they liked them so much. I'm a total igmo concerning this bit of kit. Is this about right? - It has dual "calligraphic" displays. Geeze! Very freakin' cool - It was RISC nearly before folks could even articulate the concept - It had some wicked cool "demos", to cop a C64 term. (ADC, PAC, EYE) - It wasn't DEC and it wasn't IBM and it was faster than both when it hit the street? - It has a cool OS? Dunno. Not much info on "SCOPE" - Made in the USA baby! Back when we actually made things. - It used odd sized (by todays standards) register, instruction, and bus sizes. 60 bit machine with 15/30 bit instructions. But, didn't it cause a bunch of alignment issues for you ? I dug into the CPU instructions for about 20 minutes and it was actually pretty straightforward. The so-called "COMPASS" ASM code was oh-so-cool. I can't believe they had so many of the features now considered "modern" or "clever" (at least by me) in the 1960s! This code: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMPASS/Sample_Code ... Is super-readable, in fact, probably a bit more than several much-newer dialects on different platforms. There was one instruction "PROTECT" I found pretty interesting, too. Was that similar to noodling with the control registers CR0, CR2, CR3, and CR4 on x86 to mark memory protection from segmentation violations? I remember that being the protection mechanism on my 386 SX/16 (and I remember it being a PITA), however the COMPASS "way" looks much easier/cooler and must have some hardware assistance to do that so easily. -Swift From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 16:27:11 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:27:11 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 2:06 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > - It was RISC nearly before folks could even articulate the concept > > > - It used odd sized (by todays standards) register, instruction, and bus > sizes. 60 bit machine with 15/30 bit instructions. But, didn't it cause > a bunch of alignment issues for you ? > > I dug into the CPU instructions for about 20 minutes and it was actually > pretty straightforward. The so-called "COMPASS" ASM code was oh-so-cool. I > can't believe they had so many of the features now considered "modern" or > "clever" (at least by me) in the 1960s! This code: The odd thing about the instruction set is that it did not have load/store instructions; load/store was a side-effect -- net register An (for n in 0-5), and the data at the memory address the register was set to was loaded into the corresponding Xn register, for n 6 or 7, the value in the Xn register was stored at the address. So the extra credit exercise is to figure out how to write a subroutine that prints out the value of all of the registers; ie. how can you save *all* of the register values to memory? -- Charles From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 21 16:39:16 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? Message-ID: <20160621213916.3D9C718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Swift Griggs > I see a lot of traffic about them on the list and I went out to > discover "why so cool?" One word - 'crunch'. The 6600 especially, but also its successors (7600, etc) were _the_ number-crunching monsters of their day. For everyone who had a scientific/engineering application that needed lots of cycles - especially floating-point - that was _the_ machine to have. IBM tried to outdo them, but spent a fortune, and didn't really get there - the 360/9x was essentially a failure - only 15 /91's and 2 /95's were ever built. (And IBM was later sued for predatory sales practices for announcing them before they knew they could make them.) IBM just couldn't match Seymour Cray. Speaking of whom, the 6600 was the source of the famous Watson memory (and Cray's sarcastic response) - Google it! Noel From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jun 21 16:13:41 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:13:41 -0700 Subject: Found cleaning out stuff from before gray hairs and needing glasses Message-ID: http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7139 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 21 16:45:15 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? Message-ID: <20160621214515.51BC418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > the 6600 was the source of the famous Watson memory Oops, typo; 'memo'. Noel From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Jun 21 17:43:24 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 22:43:24 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3AEC8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Swift Griggs Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 2:06 PM > - It used odd sized (by todays standards) register, instruction, and bus > sizes. 60 bit machine with 15/30 bit instructions. But, didn't it cause > a bunch of alignment issues for you ? ??? Alignment issues? Care to define this? Are you thinking of bytes? The word is the addressable unit of storage. Compilers (well, the FORTRAN compiler, to start) and the assembler inserted 15-bit no-ops as necessary to pad the 60-bit words of a CP program. PP programs fit five 12-bit instructions per word. Character codes are 6- or mixed 6/12-bit, packed into the 60-bit word. Where would you see alignment issues? Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 17:45:19 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:45:19 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5769C37F.2010906@sydex.com> On 06/21/2016 02:27 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > So the extra credit exercise is to figure out how to write a > subroutine that prints out the value of all of the registers; ie. > how can you save *all* of the register values to memory? That one was old even in the 60s. You use the RJ (return jump) instruction and one of the B-register conditionals and basically add a B-register to itself to effect a left-shift. Restoring the registers was more interesting, IMOHO. FWIW, MACE/KRONOS also had a XJ system call to effect the save a bit more directly--you just grab the registers from the exchange package and stash them away. But you needed CEJ for that to work, though I suspect a special MTR function could have done as well in SCOPE. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 18:09:24 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:09:24 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> On 06/21/2016 02:06 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > - It had some wicked cool "demos", to cop a C64 term. (ADC, PAC, EYE) Those were mostly toys to amuse the CEs, like the baseball game BAT. Chess 3.0 was implemented on Northwestern's machine and probably was the first computer chess program of note. This was before kids thought that computer games were *cool*. I never developed a taste for computer gaming. Much of the architectural concept was shared with IBM 7030 STRETCH (another system worth researching). Hand-timing instruction sequences on the 6600 was an art with its own rewards. > - It wasn't DEC and it wasn't IBM and it was faster than both when it hit > the street? With a 10 MHz clock. > - It has a cool OS? Dunno. Not much info on "SCOPE" It had several *cool* OSes, but really only two major ones for general consumption (Special Systems Dvision had several more). SCOPE (later NOS/BE), pretty much initially a PP-resident OS based on the old Chippewa Operating System--and NOS (was KRONOS, originally MACE), started as a "bootleg" project by Greg Mansfield and (Dr.) Dave Callender at Arden Hills. (MACE stood for "(Greg) Mansfield's Answer to Customer Engineering". MACE took the then-mostly PP-resident SCOPE and transfered various non-I/O system management functions to the CPU. Purdue also contributed quite a bit of code. Most batch programs written for SCOPE would run fine on MACE with few, if any, modifications. In retrospect, CDC keeping two operating systems (SCOPE was part of CPD in Sunnyvale, while KRONOS stayed home in Arden Hillls) was probably a strategic blunder, since much duplicate effort was wasted. Eventually, the two were merged into NOS (for Network Operating System). > - It used odd sized (by todays standards) register, instruction, and bus > sizes. 60 bit machine with 15/30 bit instructions. But, didn't it cause > a bunch of alignment issues for you ? There aren't any alignment issues, since the CPU was only word-addressable. This was when a character was 6 bits (think IBM 709x, UNIVAC 1100, etc.) So a word with 10 characters was logical. Given that PP words 12 bits (5 to a CM word) and there were 10 PPUs, each executing at a speed 1/10th the CPU, it had a very pleasant sort of symmetry. > I dug into the CPU instructions for about 20 minutes and it was actually > pretty straightforward. The so-called "COMPASS" ASM code was oh-so-cool. I > can't believe they had so many of the features now considered "modern" or > "clever" (at least by me) in the 1960s! This code: COMPASS was indeed advanced for its time, but then so was OS/360 assembly language. Given that assembly was the lingua franca of system programming, assemblers had to be good. Most of the readability was due to attention to detail by the programmer, not any particular language feature. > ... Is super-readable, in fact, probably a bit more than several > much-newer dialects on different platforms. There was one instruction > "PROTECT" I found pretty interesting, too. Where did you find that? I've never heard of such an instruction. --Chuck From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jun 21 16:25:16 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:25:16 -0700 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? Message-ID: <5769B0BC.5000800@fritzm.org> Are DEC ECO's available online anywhere? I have not seem them in the usual places e.g. bitsavers... I am particularly interested in ECO's related to the KB11-A (11/45). thanks, --FritzM. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 18:11:44 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:11:44 -0700 Subject: Still ISO: Infotek MX-30 Memory boards for Infotek FP-30 (HP 9830 upgrade) Message-ID: Hey all -- Several years ago (well, three years ago, anyway) I stumbled upon a beat-up, incomplete HP 9830 desktop computer/calculator that had been upgraded with an Infotek FP-30 CPU upgrade. Unfortunately, it's missing the special memory boards (the MX-30) the system requires. I asked around back then and had no luck, I figured I'd try again. If anyone has any parts for this rare beast, drop me a line. Alternately, if someone else has a need for the parts I do have, let me know and maybe we can work something out. It would be nice to get a working system (even if it's not mine) out of this stuff. Thanks! Josh From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 21 19:12:17 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 20:12:17 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <20160621213916.3D9C718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160621213916.3D9C718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2386CAC3-A8D3-4BE7-80C1-B8B7151FD2C4@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Swift Griggs > >> I see a lot of traffic about them on the list and I went out to >> discover "why so cool?" > > One word - 'crunch'. The 6600 especially, but also its successors (7600, etc) > were _the_ number-crunching monsters of their day. Yes. The 6600 was an amazing engineering accomplishment. It had extremely fast memory for its day (under a microsecond access time, in 1964). It could run several million instructions per second. Floating point add in half a microsecond, multiply in one microsecond. Lesser known things, like context switching ("exchange jump") in about 4 microseconds (!). And divide was done two bits per clock tick rather than the usual one bit per tick; essentially it was doing long division base 4 rather than base 2 as is common. Also a disk drive (6603) that was WAY faster than its peers because it recorded data in 12 bit words parallel rather than using a serial bit stream. I believe something similar was also done in the Cray 1, but CDC had it a decade earlier. paul From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 20:05:04 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:05:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 Message-ID: The RICM just picked up a PDP-11/40 chassis that was modified to accept a PDP-11/23 board set. It also contains a custom board to interface the PDP-11/23 to the original PDP-11/40 front panel. It is quite an accomplishment to get the Q-Bus board set working in the Unibus chassis. -- Michael Thompson From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 20:07:07 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:07:07 +1200 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The RICM just picked up a PDP-11/40 chassis that was modified to accept a > PDP-11/23 board set. It also contains a custom board to interface the > PDP-11/23 to the original PDP-11/40 front panel. It is quite an > accomplishment to get the Q-Bus board set working in the Unibus chassis. > > -- > Michael Thompson Oh now that's fun. And useful. A blinkenlights Qbus machine! If it's not impractical the mods should be documented so that others may go reproduce this setup. How fancy is the custom board?! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 20:08:49 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:08:49 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The RICM just picked up a PDP-11/40 chassis that was modified to accept a > PDP-11/23 board set. It also contains a custom board to interface the > PDP-11/23 to the original PDP-11/40 front panel. It is quite an > accomplishment to get the Q-Bus board set working in the Unibus chassis. > What boards exactly? Are you sure it's not an M7133 11/24 board instead? From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 21:37:33 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 19:37:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5769F9ED.7070503@gmail.com> On 6/21/16 6:05 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The RICM just picked up a PDP-11/40 chassis that was modified to accept a > PDP-11/23 board set. It also contains a custom board to interface the > PDP-11/23 to the original PDP-11/40 front panel. It is quite an > accomplishment to get the Q-Bus board set working in the Unibus chassis. > Very interesting -- is this a homebrew affair, or does it use something like an Able QNIVERTER to do the job? - Josh From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 23:38:29 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:38:29 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <5769F9ED.7070503@gmail.com> References: <5769F9ED.7070503@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm guessing the Qniverter. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 6/21/16 6:05 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >> The RICM just picked up a PDP-11/40 chassis that was modified to accept a >> PDP-11/23 board set. It also contains a custom board to interface the >> PDP-11/23 to the original PDP-11/40 front panel. It is quite an >> accomplishment to get the Q-Bus board set working in the Unibus chassis. >> >> Very interesting -- is this a homebrew affair, or does it use something > like an Able QNIVERTER to do the job? > > - Josh > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 23:54:58 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:54:58 -0700 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: <001001d1cb1a$e364d740$aa2e85c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> <8EB1AD48-D86D-4404-9542-11B66F9B01C1@mac.com> <001001d1cb1a$e364d740$aa2e85c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002601d1cc42$3a5f3180$af1d9480$@gmail.com> Add me to the list of interested people for sure. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 10:41 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! I'll chime in as a 3rd person wanting a case for my PRM-85, and I know for sure two other listmembers (who are not the two who mentioned it just now) who will definitely want one. So.... probably 5 takers. Anyone with a 3d printer want to make one for us? J From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 00:59:28 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 22:59:28 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002801d1cc4b$3dd381a0$b97a84e0$@gmail.com> The restoration is physically happening at my place. As noted below we have a small and quite knowledgeable group of people contributing, including actual hardware when we are missing a part (thanks Al !). A few of us are chronicling this on our favorite media from our favorite angle. I like to make short videos trying to convey the inside story of the restoration, on my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/curiousmarc It's interspersed with all the other restorations, but two videos so far: https://youtu.be/YupOC_6bfMI https://youtu.be/xPyqQXFC2yw Ed Thelen likes to collect every bit of raw information floating around, including some of the team emails and throw them into equally raw site, as he does for the IBM 1401 restoration effort at CHM: http://ed-thelen.org/RestoreAlto/index.html Carl Claunch methodically recounts everything he does every day (and he does a lot), so when he works on the Alto, you'll know every detail: http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/ Ken Shirriff makes deeply researched, superlative detailed posts on his blog. These are reference pieces, I admire them a lot: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html And it gets discussed on the Y-combinator (the owners of the machine) and hopefully here too. Seeing the interest, I will make an effort to post new links when they become available, unless of course Master Al beats me to it. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 8:54 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929396 http://ed-thelen.org/RestoreAlto/index.html On 6/20/16 8:51 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I post just went up on Saturday. It's nice that both CHM and LCM folks > are helping with this. > > > On 6/20/16 8:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html >> >> Found via: >> >> http://www.osnews.com/story/29261/Xerox_Alto_restoring_the_legendary_ >> 1970s_GUI_computer >> >> There are 2 videos up so far, with disassemblies that may interest CCmpers. >> >> Some people from the list are involved, including Al Kossow, but I >> haven't seen the link posted. >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 01:07:19 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:07:19 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> , Message-ID: Well Ben I'll tell you a secret. I work for one of those two companies. Processors are designed from such code, simulated and then synthesized to silicon gates. I don't think that is too much of a secret. How the architecture is done is very much a secret. I can tell you that it is more complicated than one person can completely understand. It is a team effort with many people working from a general description of what each part does and how it should interact. Some work only on arrays while others work on floating point alu's and so on. Each processor generation shares only a little with previous designs. To try to describe to someone outside how one of todays processor worked inside would require a book for each generation. Some parts are the same while other are vastly different. It is interesting that I just read an article about the Chinese creating a faster supper computer. I suspect that many might think they did it with RISK design while most US made machines were stuck in CISC machines. I don't have the real inside scoop but I can tell you what I think. Processors made today are general purpose. Floating point is a side function and not where the most emphasis is placed. I suspect that the Chinese designed the processors they used specifically to do floating point and were not the reuse of general purpose processors. The RISK/CISC is really not even relevant in todays processors since the main limiting factor is memory access bandwidth and effective use of caches. The instruction set used is only to deal with older software. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ben Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 11:53:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? On 6/21/2016 9:47 AM, dwight wrote: > One has to realize that all complex chips are done in Verilog or > VHDL. Many old designs in processors can be re-implemented from > timing and bus diagrams. Where do you get this info? Most of the little stuff I have seen it is still graphic layout and Intel (or IBM ...) is not going to tell you their design style. > This is no longer possible with todays processors like Intel or AMD > processors. The complexity of possible sequential events are more > than is practical to try to analyze from the pins. > > One can implement an instruction set but you'll never get close to > the bus activity of current processors. Who knows what secrets the cache holds? > I would say that the most important part of either language is the > ability to describe the time of simultaneous events. This is unlike > most programs written in C or such. Of course, one can write a > simulation language in C. And a useless feature in my view. Real hardware has real delays and simulation is prone errors translating to the real hardware. Ben. > Dwight > PS: With the speed of modern transistors routing capacitance and large die size; I think Vacuum tube/Drum memory might be better model for modern computing. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 22 02:42:15 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 00:42:15 -0700 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! Message-ID: <6D46B161-AB58-4569-A750-89B167347339@nf6x.net> The testing that I've been doing so far to get the 6045 hard drive working on my Nova 3 suggests that the interface card receives commands over the IO channel (i.e., I can command seeks and get the expected clunking sounds from the drive). But the interface card does not appear to be responding back to the CPU so far, since attempts to read the three IO registers or the busy/done flags always return zeros. So, I'll need to move on to component-level debugging of the interface card now. I'll need to have access to the interface card, of course. The first step was to swap the positions of my Nova rack and my VAX-11/730 to get the right side of the Nova away from the wall. This wasn't easy in the tiny, cluttered room that they live in. Next, I lowered the Nova 2 rack units, because it was in the top rack position and I couldn't get access to all of the top cover screws to get the top cover off. Damn, that thing is heavy! I pressed my hydraulic lift hand truck into service. There was a 2U filler panel under the Nova that can now live at the top of the rack, so there will be no need to raise the Nova back up later. With the top of the Nova accessible, I removed the quad serial mux in slot 12 to expose the component side of the disk interface card in slot 11. There are 6 empty slots under the interface card, so I have good access to both sides of the interface card, as well as the backplane. Now I should be able to do things such as running a tight loop reading or writing a controller card register while I probe the logic. Should be simple, right? Well, it would be if I had a schematic diagram of the interface card. So, I'm doing this in hard mode. I decided to do a little preliminary trace identification on the card before going to bed tonight, and that's when I discovered that this game is in very hard mode: Most of the ICs on the controller card are marked with a DG logo and an 8000-series number, and I have no documentation about those chips yet. The busy/done flags come out of a DG 8109, but what the heck is that? I hope that they'll end up being rebadged 7400 series chips or something like that so I'll have some chance of finding replacements, but I'll need to figure out how to identify these DG chips before I can make much progress debugging the card. I've been looking through the documentation that I have, as well as looking in documents on Bitsavers for DG gear other than the Nova 3 in hopes of finding anything identifying these 8000-series chips. I haven't found the decoder key so far. If anybody out there in cctalk land knows about DG-marked 8000-series logic chips, I would appreciate any help very much! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 02:47:37 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 02:47:37 -0500 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? In-Reply-To: <5769B0BC.5000800@fritzm.org> References: <5769B0BC.5000800@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Field service used to get them on micro fiche. I might have some here somewhere, but it may take a while to look. Newer print sets could have info on the older ones. Paul On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Are DEC ECO's available online anywhere? I have not seem them in the > usual places e.g. bitsavers... I am particularly interested in ECO's > related to the KB11-A (11/45). > > thanks, > --FritzM. > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 22 08:15:40 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:15:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? Message-ID: <20160622131540.7F3EE18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dwight Kelvey > The RIS[C]/CISC is really not even relevant in todays processors since > the main limiting factor is memory access bandwidth and effective use > of caches. Memory bandwidth has often been the limiting factor over the complete timeline of CPU's/systems. (It would be interesting to draw up a timeline, showing the periods when it was, and was not.) Yes, caches can help a lot, but inevitably they will miss (depending on the application, more or less often). The RISC/CISC thing actually is kind of relevant to this, because RISC focuses on getting the CPU cycles to be as fast as possible, and that kind of implies simpler instructions --> more instructions to get a particular task done. That was part of the motivation for microcoding, back when it was invented; at that point in time, logic was fast, memories were slow, so more complex instructions made better use of memory bandwidth - especially since this was pre-caches. (It also made binary code 'denser', which was important back then, with much smaller memories.) However, more complex instruction sets made the CPU more complicated; microcoding helped deal with that. The 801's breakthrough, at a very high level, was to see the whole system, and try and optimize across the compiler as well as the instruction set, etc, etc. They also realized that people had been going CISCy for so long that people had to some degree forgotten why, and that that assumption needed to be re-examined - especially in light of the then-current logic/memory speed balance, which had shifted towards memory at that particular point in time. Noel From connork at connorsdomain.com Wed Jun 22 09:17:51 2016 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:17:51 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse Message-ID: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> +1 You tell em Will! -Connor K On Jun 21, 2016 4:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I have sent Todd his contact info. He is willing to let one person come in and take pics and post to the group. He does NOT want to move one or 2 items of the most value; he wants to move out pallets of stuff. He is not closing shop; he just wants to move out some really old equip that has been there for years. > > Be sure to tell your friend that the mainframe collectors can > certainly make cubic feet of equipment leave the warehouse quickly! > > -- > Will From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 09:23:54 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:23:54 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> Message-ID: I'm set up to go onsite this afternoon, and I've got new SD cards and two batteries for the camera. Once I've figured out a good place to post them, I'll pass the link along. I think this is more of a corporate/enterprise collection so I'm not expecting SGI - but he's got a lot of stuff. You never know what you'll find on this kind of run..Should be fun! Todd Killingsworth On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > +1 You tell em Will! > > -Connor K > > On Jun 21, 2016 4:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > I have sent Todd his contact info. He is willing to let one person > come in and take pics and post to the group. He does NOT want to move one > or 2 items of the most value; he wants to move out pallets of stuff. He is > not closing shop; he just wants to move out some really old equip that has > been there for years. > > > > Be sure to tell your friend that the mainframe collectors can > > certainly make cubic feet of equipment leave the warehouse quickly! > > > > -- > > Will > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 09:32:28 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:32:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3AEC8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3AEC8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > > - It used odd sized (by todays standards) register, instruction, and bus > > sizes. 60 bit machine with 15/30 bit instructions. But, didn't it cause > > a bunch of alignment issues for you ? > ??? Alignment issues? Care to define this? Are you thinking of bytes? Exactly, yes. I was thinking that 60 bits is not divisble by 8. However, as I said, I'm a total ignoramous about the platform. > The word is [...] ... packed into the 60-bit word. > Where would you see alignment issues? Well, as you so eloquently explain, as long as the units feeding into the registers are factors of the register's total size, it's not a problem. So, it sounds like it wasn't an issue. I didn't know of any actual issue, I was just curious. -Swift From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 09:42:07 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 07:42:07 -0700 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? In-Reply-To: References: <5769B0BC.5000800@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <38496efd-3563-d384-3323-c82e35468b18@bitsavers.org> good a time as any to mention this.. I bought a step and repeat fiche scanner a couple of months ago and am going to start scanning the thousands of sheet backlog I have, once I get all the fiche in one place and dedup it. ECO-LOGs are definitely in there (have several DEC PDP-xx 'blue boxes') On 6/22/16 12:47 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Field service used to get them on micro fiche. I might have some here > somewhere, but it may take a while to look. > > Newer print sets could have info on the older ones. > > Paul > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > >> Are DEC ECO's available online anywhere? I have not seem them in the >> usual places e.g. bitsavers... I am particularly interested in ECO's >> related to the KB11-A (11/45). >> >> thanks, >> --FritzM. >> From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 22 09:44:24 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 07:44:24 -0700 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! In-Reply-To: <6D46B161-AB58-4569-A750-89B167347339@nf6x.net> References: <6D46B161-AB58-4569-A750-89B167347339@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <2E276837-67BD-45DC-BBD3-E785F678F3C4@nf6x.net> Update! An interface card schematic has appeared in my inbox as if by magic. That changes this task from "breaking the enemy cipher" to plain ol' logic debugging. Woohoo! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 22 09:46:44 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 07:46:44 -0700 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? In-Reply-To: <38496efd-3563-d384-3323-c82e35468b18@bitsavers.org> References: <5769B0BC.5000800@fritzm.org> <38496efd-3563-d384-3323-c82e35468b18@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <16141620-2EF8-42CF-8EFC-B683BD0EB196@nf6x.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 07:42, Al Kossow wrote: > > good a time as any to mention this.. > > I bought a step and repeat fiche scanner a couple of months ago > and am going to start scanning the thousands of sheet backlog I > have, once I get all the fiche in one place and dedup it. ECO-LOGs > are definitely in there (have several DEC PDP-xx 'blue boxes') That's great news, Al! Thanks for doing this stuff. It's a great service to collectors and computer historians of the present and the future. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 22 09:55:14 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 07:55:14 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 07:23, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > > I'm set up to go onsite this afternoon, and I've got new SD cards and two > batteries for the camera. Once I've figured out a good place to post them, > I'll pass the link along. I think this is more of a corporate/enterprise > collection so I'm not expecting SGI - but he's got a lot of stuff. > > You never know what you'll find on this kind of run..Should be fun! I'm looking forward to seeing what you find! > On Jun 21, 2016, at 13:05, William Donzelli wrote: > > Be sure to tell your friend that the mainframe collectors can > certainly make cubic feet of equipment leave the warehouse quickly! In case it helps any mainframe collectors, I just checked, and ramen noodle soup costs around $0.41 per meal on Amazon Prime. I'm still working on the problem creating more cubic feet^H^H^H^Hyards of available volume in a small house, though. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 22 10:07:57 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! Message-ID: <20160622150757.A3DD818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark J. Blair > An interface card schematic has appeared in my inbox as if by magic. If that allows you to create a list of what various 8000-series chips do (or if you've since located one), that would be a good thing to have available online. If you have (or create) one, we can stick it on the Computer History wiki... Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 22 10:27:33 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:27:33 -0700 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! In-Reply-To: <20160622150757.A3DD818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160622150757.A3DD818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jun 22, 2016, at 08:07, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Mark J. Blair > >> An interface card schematic has appeared in my inbox as if by magic. > > If that allows you to create a list of what various 8000-series chips do (or > if you've since located one), that would be a good thing to have available > online. If you have (or create) one, we can stick it on the Computer History > wiki... That sounds like a great idea! I should be able to at least identify the functions of the specific chips used on that card. Additional documentation is flowing in behind the schematic courtesy of that little birdie who all of us DG collectors know and love, and it's putting me in a really fantastic mood this morning. I'm feeling so happy that I think I'll buy my dogs a cheeseburger at In-N-Out on the way home tonight to celebrate. Now I'm looking forward to working on this project some more this weekend, rather then dreading the tedium of reverse-engineering a design with black-box chips! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 10:32:23 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:32:23 -0600 (MDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > - It had some wicked cool "demos", to cop a C64 term. (ADC, PAC, EYE) > Those were mostly toys to amuse the CEs, like the baseball game BAT. I was trying to find some video of one of those actually running. I wanted to see how the "calligraphic displays" painted the graphics. Do you happen to know why they went with two displays like that? Did the two have different purposes? > Chess 3.0 was implemented on Northwestern's machine and probably was the > first computer chess program of note. This was before kids thought that > computer games were *cool*. I never developed a taste for computer > gaming. Most folks I know who were in their 20s or 30s in the 60s or 70s didn't, either. However, computer games were the "hook" that got a lot of people like me interested in computing as children. I instantly became more interested in creating the games, not just playing them. I've known a lot of others with the same sort of instincts. > Much of the architectural concept was shared with IBM 7030 STRETCH > (another system worth researching). Hmm, I've never heard of it. I'll check it out. Thanks. > > - It wasn't DEC and it wasn't IBM and it was faster than both when it hit > > the street? > With a 10 MHz clock. Impressive. > It had several *cool* OSes, but really only two major ones for general > consumption (Special Systems Dvision had several more). SCOPE (later > NOS/BE), pretty much initially a PP-resident OS based on the old > Chippewa Operating System--and NOS (was KRONOS, originally MACE), I tried to find some info on SCOPE, but it's very sparse. Did it have an interactive command line? What was your main "interface" to the OS? > started as a "bootleg" project by Greg Mansfield and (Dr.) Dave > Callender at Arden Hills. (MACE stood for "(Greg) Mansfield's Answer to > Customer Engineering". Lots of great and interesting operating systems start as a reaction to the status quo or some idea they find abhorrent. UNIX and many variants certainly have. Ie.. Ken & Dennis working on side-projects while bored and demotivated by Multics, BSD guys reacting to AT&T clamping down, Linus reacting to his profs, Theo forking NetBSD, I could go on and on... UNIX: Born in rebellion. > Most batch programs written for SCOPE would run fine on MACE with few, > if any, modifications. Did Control Data sell both or was one from an alternative vendor? > In retrospect, CDC keeping two operating systems (SCOPE was part of CPD > in Sunnyvale, while KRONOS stayed home in Arden Hillls) was probably a > strategic blunder, since much duplicate effort was wasted. Eventually, > the two were merged into NOS (for Network Operating System). I found this PDF: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/nos/60435400J_NOS_Version_1_Reference_Volume_1_Aug79.pdf It's interesting to me because of how "different" everything is. I'm not well versed in mainframe operating systems. It's interesting. > There aren't any alignment issues, since the CPU was only > word-addressable. This was when a character was 6 bits (think IBM 709x, > UNIVAC 1100, etc.) So a word with 10 characters was logical. I figured it was something like that, but I'm so used to 8-bit bytes and such. It takes a minute to adjust my thinking to a different base, but it's not that hard. > Given that PP words 12 bits (5 to a CM word) and there were 10 PPUs, > each executing at a speed 1/10th the CPU, it had a very pleasant sort of > symmetry. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as things factor out properly: no worries. > COMPASS was indeed advanced for its time, but then so was OS/360 > assembly language. Given that assembly was the lingua franca of system > programming, assemblers had to be good. Most of the readability was due > to attention to detail by the programmer, not any particular language > feature. Well, the sample code I could find was particularly well put together by someone who knew they were doing. I'm a pretty poor ASM programmer, since the only one I ever put much effort into was for the M68k (which is really easy compared to some). I've got a big crush on MIPS ASM but I never was any good with it. C ruined me. :-) > > ... Is super-readable, in fact, probably a bit more than several > > much-newer dialects on different platforms. There was one instruction > > "PROTECT" I found pretty interesting, too. > Where did you find that? I've never heard of such an instruction. I was mistaken, it's only a control statement for COMPASS. It's actually in the PDF manual I was just looking at. It's used to "preserve a user's ECS field length between job steps." -Swift From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 10:55:52 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:55:52 -0400 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! In-Reply-To: References: <20160622150757.A3DD818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > I'm feeling so happy that I think I'll buy my dogs a cheeseburger at In-N-Out on the way home tonight to celebrate. Just one? Or do you want a dog fight? -- Will From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 10:55:53 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:55:53 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <48D52FBF-CAF1-4C90-B654-BD6369411663@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> - It had some wicked cool "demos", to cop a C64 term. (ADC, PAC, EYE) >> Those were mostly toys to amuse the CEs, like the baseball game BAT. > > I was trying to find some video of one of those actually running. I wanted > to see how the "calligraphic displays" painted the graphics. Do you happen > to know why they went with two displays like that? Did the two have > different purposes? The displays could do vector-drawn text ("calligraphic") or arbitrary graphics by drawing dots (basically just periods). No line vectors. Plot speed was about 2.5 microseconds per character. The displays did not have any kind of refresh memory -- instead, the controlling software would just redisplay stuff fast enough. This meant that your status display was always up to date, because it was rebuilding the display from the current state each refresh. This is very handy to get a feel for what a system is doing. For example, if something gets stuck, the corresponding display element would freeze. If things were running, that element might flicker or be a blur. You'd get the same intuitive view of stuff as you do with a classic "lights" console (only more so). Text could be displayed in three sizes; the smallest characters were 64 across, 32 lines, per tube. I suspect one reason for two tubes is the same reason that people today put two displays on their desk: more screen real estate to show more stuff. Given the way the circuitry was done, two displays were only slightly more expensive than one. The controller would send the signals to the tube pairs, and a tube select signal would control which tube would light up for that particular signal. So things like the character waveform generator did not have to be duplicated. I've seen some photos but haven't run into videos. There's an emulation that fairly accurately shows what things looked like; one could do screen capture videos from that. But that wouldn't be quite the real thing. > ... >> It had several *cool* OSes, but really only two major ones for general >> consumption (Special Systems Dvision had several more). SCOPE (later >> NOS/BE), pretty much initially a PP-resident OS based on the old >> Chippewa Operating System--and NOS (was KRONOS, originally MACE), > > I tried to find some info on SCOPE, but it's very sparse. Did it have an > interactive command line? What was your main "interface" to the OS? They all started out as batch (card deck input), unless you count job entry from the console display which was for operator use. Remote Job Entry showed up in some of them, as did timesharing. The early timesharing stuff was amazingly primitive but it worked. Roughly speaking you'd enter the same commands as might appear in a card deck, but each would be executed when entered. > ... >> There aren't any alignment issues, since the CPU was only >> word-addressable. This was when a character was 6 bits (think IBM 709x, >> UNIVAC 1100, etc.) So a word with 10 characters was logical. > > I figured it was something like that, but I'm so used to 8-bit bytes and > such. It takes a minute to adjust my thinking to a different base, but > it's not that hard. Bytes, in the sense of 8 bit clumps that were addressable, showed up in the IBM 360 series. Before then, and for that matter in many other computers for years after, machines tended to be word addressable, and character sizes might vary. 60 bits with 6 bit characters (usually) is one example. 36 bits with 6 or 7 or 8 bits is another. 48 bits with 8 bit characters... the list goes on. If you think these are odd, consider the Electrologica machines, with 27 bit words and 5, 6, 7, or 9 bit characters. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 22 11:01:39 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? Message-ID: <20160622160139.73E2518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Swift Griggs >> Much of the architectural concept was shared with IBM 7030 STRETCH >> (another system worth researching). > Hmm, I've never heard of it. I'll check it out. The first supercomputer, IMO. It's an interesting machine, with a variety of innovations that later became standard: e.g. it has separate instruction and arithmetic units, with the former being in charge of all fetches, both instruction and data, as well as executing things like branch instructions; it also has a primitive form of pipelining ("Interlocks in the look-ahead unit ensure that nothing is altered permanently until all the preceeding instructions have been executed successfully.") Eric has a nice page about it: https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/stretch/ There's a good book about it: Werner Buchholz (editor), "Planning a Computer System: Project Stretch", McGraw-Hill, New York, 1962 Speaking of books, there's also a CDC 6600 book: Jim E. Thornton, "Design of A Computer: The Control Data 6600", Scott, Foresman, Glenview, 1970 Really gotta do that Bibliography! Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 11:01:56 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:01:56 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <20160622131540.7F3EE18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160622131540.7F3EE18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0D3696CC-A1B9-415C-945D-9AD86F9E97E5@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Dwight Kelvey > >> The RIS[C]/CISC is really not even relevant in todays processors since >> the main limiting factor is memory access bandwidth and effective use >> of caches. > > Memory bandwidth has often been the limiting factor over the complete > timeline of CPU's/systems. (It would be interesting to draw up a timeline, > showing the periods when it was, and was not.) Yes, caches can help a lot, > but inevitably they will miss (depending on the application, more or less > often). I can't think of an obvious example where memory speed wasn't a concern. Possibly a reason is that memory would be tailored to the rest of the system (cheaper lower cost core if the CPU didn't need it faster). But, for example, making the memory run well is a large part of why the 6600 looks the way it does. > The RISC/CISC thing actually is kind of relevant to this, because RISC > focuses on getting the CPU cycles to be as fast as possible, and that kind of > implies simpler instructions --> more instructions to get a particular task > done. One consideration is that a RISC CPU requires vastly less silicon. So you can do RISC in very small/cheap chips, or on a larger chip spend far less on the CPU core and leave more room (at constant die cost) for other stuff like caches or auxiliary components. One place you can see this is in the various MIPS or ARM based "system on a chip" products, which have some CPU cores plus memory controllers, cache, UARTs, I/O buses, flash interfaces, crypto cores, RAID coprocessor cores, etc. etc. Or you might find chips with very large core counts, like the Tilera 100-core processors. (For that matter, the DECmpp many-core machine was a RISC machine for the same reason.) paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 22 11:02:27 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? Message-ID: <20160622160227.CA33518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller fritzm at fritzm.org > Are DEC ECO's available online anywhere? ... I am particularly > interested in ECO's related to the KB11-A (11/45). I have a DEC Field Circus handbook arriving today that allegedly contains some ECO information; if there's anything on the KB11-A, I'll see if I can get it scanned. Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 22 11:03:18 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:03:18 -0700 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! In-Reply-To: References: <20160622150757.A3DD818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5BBA515C-8D3E-4682-BAEC-104872FBE663@nf6x.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 08:55, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I'm feeling so happy that I think I'll buy my dogs a cheeseburger at In-N-Out on the way home tonight to celebrate. > > Just one? Or do you want a dog fight? Little dog gets 1/3, and bigger dog gets 2/3. That's the In-N-Out prescribed dosage; for McDonald's, it's 1/2 for little dog, 1 for big dog, and 1/2 for me (plus the Quarter Pounder I already ate) since their cheeseburgers are smaller. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jun 22 11:24:05 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:24:05 -0700 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? In-Reply-To: <20160622160227.CA33518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160622160227.CA33518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <576ABBA5.5010803@fritzm.org> Thanks a lot, folks! And of course, thanks so much Al for bitsavers -- the DEC archives there, for me at least, have made this whole hobby possible! I have an early (serial 152) 11/45 that I've been restoring. Just now to the point in CPU debug where I can reliably toggle in and run simple programs. Next step will be to get some serial I/O going so I can conveniently load some more thorough diagnostics and be sure the CPU and memory are completely shaken out. Then on to working on storage. I have a pretty complete set of CPU spares, but they are of various different revisions, having differing sets of green wires etc. I'd like to have a look at the ECOs at some point so I can properly sort out and record what is what, and/or possibly bring all the boards up to a consistent level. cheers, --Fritzm. From thebri at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 11:38:11 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:38:11 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <20160622160139.73E2518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160622160139.73E2518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: Werner Buchholz (editor), "Planning a Computer System: Project Stretch", > McGraw-Hill, New York, 1962 > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-7030-Planning-McJones.pdf > Speaking of books, there's also a CDC 6600 book: > > Jim E. Thornton, "Design of A Computer: The Control Data 6600", > Scott, Foresman, Glenview, 1970 > http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/cdc/6x00/books/DesignOfAComputer_CDC6600.pdf (apologies for using the non-official link) Really gotta do that Bibliography! > > Noel > Ah, that's why my googling around the other day failed! The current pace of recommended books is already quicker than I can read. Where is this 'computer history wiki', anyway? b From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 22 12:08:01 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:08:01 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> On 06/22/2016 08:32 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > I was trying to find some video of one of those actually running. I wanted > to see how the "calligraphic displays" painted the graphics. Do you happen > to know why they went with two displays like that? Did the two have > different purposes? I think Paul's covered that pretty well. I'll add that the more complex the display, the more flicker was present. Another odd effect was that systems that made extensive use of ECS (extended core storage) could make the display flicker something awful, as ECS transfers tended to be block-oriented, due to the high startup time. (ECS used a wide word that was disassembled into CM words. Once a transfer started, it was at full central memory speed.) ECS transfers could also torpedo certain types of tape I/O (e.g. 1LT, the long tape driver used to transfer records longer than PP memory to CM). >> Much of the architectural concept was shared with IBM 7030 STRETCH >> (another system worth researching). > > Hmm, I've never heard of it. I'll check it out. Thanks. Do check it out--there was some bleeding-edge technology that went into that system that was later used by Cray in his 6600. One of those project that could be said to be a technical success, but a financial fiasco. > I tried to find some info on SCOPE, but it's very sparse. Did it have an > interactive command line? What was your main "interface" to the OS? Well, SCOPE had INTERCOM, an interactive facility, as well as EXPORT/IMPORT which was an RJE facility. But the system was targeted primarily at batch jobs. Its illegitimate relative, KRONOS, made extensive use of ECS for support of the PLATO system. Note that the 6000 series had no hardware memory management to speak of. An active job had a relocation address (RA) and field length (FL), but memory space belonging to a job was contiguous and present in physical memory (no paging or segmentation). So jobs were moved or "rolled out" to mass storage as needs for resources arose. So that was for standard offerings--"special systems" (i.e. spooks) had their own adaptations, probably still classified today. However, there was more than one SCOPE--and when reading the bitsavers stuff, you have to be careful. The CDC 7600 used pretty much the same CPU instruction set as the 6000 series, so user programs were compatible. The PP setup was different however. In the 6000, any PP has unrestricted access to central memory (CM). In the 7600, each PP was assigned a fixed memory frame in CM and could not access anything outside of its hard-wired "buffer" area. The implication is that you couldn't have a PP-resident operating system. So SCOPE 2 was developed for the 7600. In it, PPs are relegated to I/O and (one very special unit) for maintenance. The operating system proper resides in a set of "nested" program units. That is, there would, for example be a Buffer Manager with an RA and FL that encompassed the Record Manager program, which, in turn would encompass the Job Supervisor...and eventually the user program itself. A system of "rings of protection" if you will, long before that was in vogue. Although bulk core (LCM = large core memory; the 7600 term for 6000 ECS) was used as program storage, the whole affair turned out to be more cumbersome than originally envisioned. The SCOPE 2 folks were always a little defensive about this result of necessity. So, SCOPE 2 is not the same as SCOPE 3. SCOPE 3.4 was the last version to be called that before it was renamed NOS/BE (Network Operating System, Batch Environment) and eventually merged into NOS proper (which had been KRONOS, which had been NOS). CDC was sharply split in culture as well as geography--the Minnesota clan was cut from different cloth than the Palo Alto-then-Sunnyvale clan, so discussions from the West coast tend to be more SCOPE-oriented, while the pickled watermelon rind clan talks fondly about KRONOS. > I figured it was something like that, but I'm so used to 8-bit bytes and > such. It takes a minute to adjust my thinking to a different base, but > it's not that hard. Working with full words and shifting and masking can be remarkably efficient. For a time, CDC had one of the fastest COBOLs around, even against IBM's big iron. I recall the "what do we do about more than 64 characters" discussion was raging. One interesting alternative proposed was to fit 7.5 8-bit characters to the word, with the odd 4-bit leftover being called a "snaque" (snaque-byte; get it?). Instead what was done was to reserve some of the lesser used characters of the 64-character set as "escape" codes for what amounts to 12-bit characters. So, in theory, you get the advantage of uppercase compatability, while providing for an extended character set. Very messy. As an aside, take a look at the UNIVAC 1107/1108 instruction set from roughly the same period. It has an instruction to define the byte size (36 bit words). > Well, the sample code I could find was particularly well put together by > someone who knew they were doing. I'm a pretty poor ASM programmer, since > the only one I ever put much effort into was for the M68k (which is really > easy compared to some). I've got a big crush on MIPS ASM but I never was > any good with it. C ruined me. :-) Another cultural difference. CDC had coding standards. When a programmer wrote code that either defined a new product or modified an existing one, it had to pass peer review. Aside from very old code, you quickly learned the system. For example: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/nos/NOS_COMPASS_Coding_Standard_Jun83.pdf You develop a disciplined style and you never forget it. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 12:12:54 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:12:54 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 24, Issue 22 Message-ID: > > Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:08:49 -0700 > From: Glen Slick > Subject: Re: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 > > What boards exactly? Are you sure it's not an M7133 11/24 board instead? > > From front to back in the AB slots: - M8186, KDF11-A, 11/23 CPU, 18-bit addressing only - M8044-DM, MSV11-DD, 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM - M8043, DLVJ1-M, 4-Line Asynchronous Interface - M7940, DLV11, Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) A custom interface to the front panel is in the CD connectors of the first slot. I will post pictures of the boards on the RICM WWW site. -- Michael Thompson From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Jun 22 12:43:03 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:43:03 +0000 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? In-Reply-To: <38496efd-3563-d384-3323-c82e35468b18@bitsavers.org> References: <5769B0BC.5000800@fritzm.org> <38496efd-3563-d384-3323-c82e35468b18@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B443@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Al Kossow Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 7:42 AM > good a time as any to mention this.. > I bought a step and repeat fiche scanner a couple of months ago > and am going to start scanning the thousands of sheet backlog I > have, once I get all the fiche in one place and dedup it. ECO-LOGs > are definitely in there (have several DEC PDP-xx 'blue boxes') Hi, Al, Does the scanner have a setting to do row-major vs. column-major scanning? I ask from experience: When I was putting Tops-10 v6.03A on our 1070, I had to have a fiche listing of VMSER.MAC scanned to PDF. As you know, DEC FS fiche sheets are column-major, but the PDF came back to me row-major. I had to print it out on 11x17 to reorder the pages for typein. Later, when I had the time, I used Acrobat to reorder the pages in the PDF, but that was also a major PITA. Just thinking of you. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 13:52:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:52:52 -0700 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? In-Reply-To: <20160622160227.CA33518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160622160227.CA33518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <48862b6b-5d94-842b-3c69-08353e5847d9@bitsavers.org> On 6/22/16 9:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I have a DEC Field Circus handbook arriving today which one? 1974_Field_Service_Technical_Manual_Dec74.pdf is already on line under handbooks From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 13:58:34 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:58:34 -0700 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B443@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5769B0BC.5000800@fritzm.org> <38496efd-3563-d384-3323-c82e35468b18@bitsavers.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B443@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <8e7b48c4-f3ca-8389-405e-578008e460ca@bitsavers.org> On 6/22/16 10:43 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 7:42 AM > >> good a time as any to mention this.. > >> I bought a step and repeat fiche scanner a couple of months ago >> and am going to start scanning the thousands of sheet backlog I >> have, once I get all the fiche in one place and dedup it. ECO-LOGs >> are definitely in there (have several DEC PDP-xx 'blue boxes') > > Hi, Al, > > Does the scanner have a setting to do row-major vs. column-major > scanning? It is column major, taking about 6 passes length wise, stepping the image sensor down the rows. It's a Wicks & Wilson FS300 like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252408866998 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 09:49:49 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:49:49 -0400 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? Message-ID: I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly corrosive brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately and I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that leaked a corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original box, so I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of it, but I don't know for sure. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 09:57:28 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:57:28 +0200 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22 June 2016 at 16:49, william degnan wrote: > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly corrosive > brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately and > I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that leaked a > corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original box, so > I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of it, but > I don't know for sure. Capacitor electrolyte? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 10:04:49 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:04:49 -0400 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A8AA95E-AD18-46BF-9691-6E09DC520619@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 10:49 AM, william degnan wrote: > > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly corrosive > brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately and > I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that leaked a > corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original box, so > I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of it, but > I don't know for sure. Electrolytic capacitor? That's about the only component I can think of you'd find in a monitor that might contain corrosives. (Batteries also do, but a VR201 is not likely to contain one.) paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 10:10:17 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 15:10:17 +0000 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly corrosive > brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately and Ouch, in more ways than one. If it attacks your skin like that, I wonder what it has done to the insides of the monitor. > I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that leaked a > corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original box, so > I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of it, but > I don't know for sure. If it does come from inside, just about the only thing it can be is electrolyte from one of the capacitors. I'd remove the case [1] and have a look. Possibly wearing gloves... [1] Very easy on the VR201. Extend the 'leg' fully. Put the unit screen-side down. Prise (pry) off the circular cap on the back, over the screw. Undo that screw (#2 phillips). Slide off the case. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 10:41:40 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:41:40 -0400 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 11:10 AM, tony duell wrote: > > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly corrosive > > brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately > and > > Ouch, in more ways than one. If it attacks your skin like that, I wonder > what > it has done to the insides of the monitor. > > > I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that > leaked a > > corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original box, > so > > I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of it, > but > > I don't know for sure. > > If it does come from inside, just about the only thing it can be is > electrolyte > from one of the capacitors. I'd remove the case [1] and have a look. > Possibly > wearing gloves... > > [1] Very easy on the VR201. Extend the 'leg' fully. Put the unit > screen-side > down. Prise (pry) off the circular cap on the back, over the screw. Undo > that > screw (#2 phillips). Slide off the case. > > -tony > The screen rot is so bad, I am not sure I even want to mess with it. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 10:42:32 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:32 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, william degnan wrote: > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly corrosive > brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately > and I had to wash hands thoroughly. PH test it, if you can. If it's caustic, then I'd suspect condensate mixed with electrolytic capacitor gunk. If it's acidic, I'd suspect either an industrial cleaner or again condensate that had mixed with acid from solder flux, then partially evaporated, leaving a concentrated acid ready to burn you. That's my cockamamie theory. If it tests acidic, put on some gloves and eye protection and pull the boards out you can, leaving just the (discharged) tube and the case. Then flush everything with a mix of water and baking soda. If it's caustic, clean it out with vinegar (ie.. 3% diluted acetic acid). Then flush the whole thing with purified water, clean the boards, and reassemble it. It might be a lost cause if that stuff has got down into the flyback transformer or ate all the solder mask off your logic board. -Swift From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 11:14:05 2016 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:14:05 -0400 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. It's the PVA compound leaking out of the picture tube, from between the faceplate and the tube itself. I see this on lots of terminals and monitors. You need to remove the picture tube, heat the faceplate and separate it from the tube, and clean up all the brown goop, and put everything back together. It's corrosive, and it will eat traces (this is a big problem on ADM3A terminals, since the goo leaks onto the circuit board). This is definitely fixable. -Ian On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 10:49 AM, william degnan wrote: > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly corrosive > brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately and > I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that leaked a > corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original box, so > I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of it, but > I don't know for sure. > > Bill > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 11:42:25 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:42:25 -0700 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, screen rot. Why didn't you say so in the first place! The nasty substance that you came into contact with is almost certainly the decomposed RTV silicone leaking out. Gross stuff. On Wednesday, June 22, 2016, william degnan wrote: > On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 11:10 AM, tony duell > > wrote: > > > > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly > corrosive > > > brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately > > and > > > > Ouch, in more ways than one. If it attacks your skin like that, I wonder > > what > > it has done to the insides of the monitor. > > > > > I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that > > leaked a > > > corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original > box, > > so > > > I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of it, > > but > > > I don't know for sure. > > > > If it does come from inside, just about the only thing it can be is > > electrolyte > > from one of the capacitors. I'd remove the case [1] and have a look. > > Possibly > > wearing gloves... > > > > [1] Very easy on the VR201. Extend the 'leg' fully. Put the unit > > screen-side > > down. Prise (pry) off the circular cap on the back, over the screw. Undo > > that > > screw (#2 phillips). Slide off the case. > > > > -tony > > > > > The screen rot is so bad, I am not sure I even want to mess with it. > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 22 12:41:54 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 18:41:54 +0100 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03a701d1ccad$5dd2a730$1977f590$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 22 June 2016 16:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? > > On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 11:10 AM, tony duell > wrote: > > > > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly > > > corrosive brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / > > > immediately > > and > > > > Ouch, in more ways than one. If it attacks your skin like that, I > > wonder what it has done to the insides of the monitor. > > > > > I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that > > leaked a > > > corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original > > > box, > > so > > > I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of > > > it, > > but > > > I don't know for sure. > > > > If it does come from inside, just about the only thing it can be is > > electrolyte from one of the capacitors. I'd remove the case [1] and > > have a look. > > Possibly > > wearing gloves... > > Nasty! I have a couple of working VR201s that I want to check for impending problems, this has prompted me to plan to do that sooner rather than later. Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 12:56:20 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:56:20 -0400 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 10:49 AM, william degnan wrote: > I picked up a DEC VR201 display today, it was leaking a highly corrosive > brown liquid. So corrosive it burned my skin painfully / immediately and > I had to wash hands thoroughly. Anyone come across a display that leaked a > corrosive liquid like that? The display was stored in its original box, so > I don't think the brown liquid was from something stored on top of it, but > I don't know for sure. I've had brown liquid emit from a VT220 - I think it was the goo between the CRT and the implosion shield decomposing. I tore it all apart and cleaned it and put it back in service (it was my first VT220 from 1984...) It's a messy job. I happen to have working guts of a VR201 from when I dropped one and busted the CRT 20 years ago... if you don't want to deal with the cleanup/refurb, I can always use another VR201 (to replace the broken one!). PM me. If you want to do it yourself, it can be done, but it's a multi-night project, I'd say (one tip: I used a silicone-based double-stick gel-like "tape" to remount the implosion protector (with an air gap) because the naked CRT didn't fit the VT220 housing well enough to make me happy - I'd approach the VR201 restoration with the same expectation). -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 14:19:05 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 15:19:05 -0400 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: <03a701d1ccad$5dd2a730$1977f590$@ntlworld.com> References: <03a701d1ccad$5dd2a730$1977f590$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > > > > > > > If it does come from inside, just about the only thing it can be is > > > electrolyte from one of the capacitors. I'd remove the case [1] and > > > have a look. > > > Possibly > > > wearing gloves... > > > > > > Nasty! I have a couple of working VR201s that I want to check for > impending problems, this has prompted me to plan to do that sooner rather > than later. > > Regards > > Rob > > The skin under my index finger is still a little sore. ouch. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 14:24:41 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:24:41 +0000 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > (one tip: I used a silicone-based double-stick gel-like "tape" to > remount the implosion protector (with an air gap) because the naked > CRT didn't fit the VT220 housing well enough to make me happy - I'd > approach the VR201 restoration with the same expectation). As far as I know, the front of an implosion-protected CRT works like a laminated windscreen (windshield). There are 2 (normal) glass layers bonded together by the 'goo'. If you've refitted the outer layer with just fixing tape at the edges, you do not have any implosion protection. And I certainly would not sit in front of a CRT like that! -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 14:29:45 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:29:45 -0500 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! In-Reply-To: References: <20160622150757.A3DD818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <001d01d1ccbc$6ee340c0$4ca9c240$@classiccmp.org> Mark wrote... ===== Additional documentation is flowing in behind the schematic courtesy of that little birdie who all of us DG collectors know and love ===== Heeeeere Birdie Birdie (throwing sunflower seeds on the ground) J From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 14:31:29 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:31:29 +0200 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <576AE791.1080203@gmail.com> Hello Mark, when you are ready with your machine up and running, you could try to use on a real Nova 3 the tool I wrote to raw read/write disks and tapes through the serial port. You just need a PC (linux preferred) and Python installed (plus serial port module). Then you should be able to dump the disk to image for SIMH, and eventually to write back an image to the disk. Thanks Andrea From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 14:47:43 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:47:43 -0500 Subject: library/book carts available Message-ID: <002001d1ccbe$f14fdad0$d3ef9070$@classiccmp.org> Maybe a year ago I got two metal 3 shelf library carts on wheels, to hold the manuals that were related to whatever machine I was working on at the time. Its extremely useful to have all the manuals at hand on a rolling stand when you're moving around working on the beast. I have not seen any for sale since then at a reasonable price (which I'd say is $100 or less). I just stopped at a place here in St. Louis, and I see they have 8 of these "library/book carts" available. They are basically in mint condition, and most of them come with old red binders on 2 of the 3 shelves. The binders are interesting - these are those old ones with sort of cloth surfaces and heavy metal latches inside. All the binders are about 3 or 3.5 inch wide. A typical place I see these type of binders is in machine shops and the like, holding press setup instructions and such. The binders are old, but the carts are basically new looking. The carts are 42.5" tall, 31" wide, and 13" deep. The carts hold books on one side only, and the height of each shelf between the next is 11 & 5/8. If your binders are taller than that they won't fit ;) $75 each. Here is a link to an almost-but-not-quite-identical cart: http://tinyurl.com/huamv7e I'm buying 2 of these for myself, leaving six. I'd be happy to purchase and hold for a while if someone non-local wants some, but it's probably not economical to ship them. I could deliver one or two to VCFMW this year perhaps. J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 22 15:40:18 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? Message-ID: <20160622204018.89B7F18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow aek at bitsavers.org > which one? > 1974_Field_Service_Technical_Manual_Dec74.pdf > is already on line under handbooks Dat be de one. Alas for the OP, it doesn't seem to contain any PDP-11 stuff (well, a bit on the RK11-C, etc, but nothing on any processor, at least that I could see). FWIW, it's available online on an indexed, page-by-page basis at: http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/TechTips.html Worth looking through. Some of them are amusing, like "Disk Destruction Made Simple" and "DECtape Reels Falling Off Drive". Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 22 15:50:34 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:50:34 -0700 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! In-Reply-To: <001d01d1ccbc$6ee340c0$4ca9c240$@classiccmp.org> References: <20160622150757.A3DD818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001d01d1ccbc$6ee340c0$4ca9c240$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <50712CA4-06A4-4567-968F-8932C4C85481@nf6x.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 12:29 , Jay West wrote: > > Mark wrote... > ===== > Additional documentation is flowing in behind the schematic courtesy of that > little birdie who all of us DG collectors know and love > ===== > > Heeeeere Birdie Birdie (throwing sunflower seeds on the ground) LOL! I assume that you already know this birdie, but I'll be happy to hook you up if not. Have you determined whether any of your 6030 floppy drives are "extra"? If not, I think that there's exactly the right amount of open rack units in my DG rack to hold my PDP-8/M and a mil-surplus Chalco high speed paper tape reader I have that could be fun to interface to the PDP-8 and/or the Nova. But if I'll be hosting a 6030 drive in the rack then I'll need to come up with a different plan! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jun 22 15:51:49 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:51:49 -0700 Subject: Data General 8000-series logic in my Nova 3?! In-Reply-To: <576AE791.1080203@gmail.com> References: <576AE791.1080203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <775E1E94-2549-4E54-B92D-56C6C339F0C0@nf6x.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 12:31 , shadoooo wrote: > > Hello Mark, > when you are ready with your machine up and running, > you could try to use on a real Nova 3 the tool I wrote to raw read/write disks and tapes through the serial port. > You just need a PC (linux preferred) and Python installed (plus serial port module). I forgot about your disk dumper tool! I was planning to write my own, but maybe I don't need to now! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 22 15:57:59 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? Message-ID: <20160622205759.BA5C418C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brian Walenz >> Werner Buchholz (editor), "Planning a Computer System: Project >> Stretch", McGraw-Hill, New York, 1962 > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-7030-Planning-McJones.pdf Yeah, I found that _after_ I sent the email, sigh... >> Speaking of books, there's also a CDC 6600 book: >> Jim E. Thornton, "Design of A Computer: The Control Data 6600", >> Scott, Foresman, Glenview, 1970 > http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/cdc/6x00/books/DesignOfAComputer_CDC6600.pdf Didn't know that one was online too - excellent. >> Really gotta do that Bibliography! > Where is this 'computer history wiki', anyway? http://gunkies.org/wiki/Main_Page Note; automatic account creation is disabled to prevent spamming issues. You have to email Tore directly - and he is often busy, so it may take a bit. Noel From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 15:58:25 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:58:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think Paul's covered that pretty well. I'll add that the more complex > the display, the more flicker was present. The descriptions are fascinating. I hope I can see one operating some day. Do you know of any still operational ? > >> Much of the architectural concept was shared with IBM 7030 STRETCH > >> (another system worth researching). > > Hmm, I've never heard of it. I'll check it out. Thanks. > Do check it out--there was some bleeding-edge technology that went into > that system that was later used by Cray in his 6600. So far my only comment on the Stretch is "I also hate project managers." > One of those project that could be said to be a technical success, but a > financial fiasco. I'm always happy to see corporations lose (scads of) money for a good cause. Hmm, now that I think about it, it doesn't even need to be a good cause. :-) > Well, SCOPE had INTERCOM, an interactive facility, as well as > EXPORT/IMPORT which was an RJE facility. But the system was targeted > primarily at batch jobs. Hmm, after reading the responses, I'm guessing most folks just showed up with an armload of punch cards and didn't bother with keying things on the console at the altar of the system. > Its illegitimate relative, KRONOS, made extensive use of ECS for support > of the PLATO system. Note that the 6000 series had no hardware memory > management to speak of. Well, it probably didn't need to do much multi-process multi-tasking, so that probably still worked out fine vis-a-vis the competition. > An active job had a relocation address (RA) and field length (FL), but > memory space belonging to a job was contiguous and present in physical > memory (no paging or segmentation). So jobs were moved or "rolled out" > to mass storage as needs for resources arose. Could you roll them back in by just re-populating memory with the dump and hooking back to whatever the equivalent of PC and EIP were on that system and re-launching the job? > So that was for standard offerings--"special systems" (i.e. spooks) had > their own adaptations, probably still classified today. I'm not fond of them. They waste a ton of money (classified budget!?) on projects that never see the light of day. I contrast their efforts with folks like NASA where a lot of (amazing and super important) tech found it's way to the public domain. I would cheer to see them de-funded, renamed, and irrelevant. > However, there was more than one SCOPE--and when reading the bitsavers > stuff, you have to be careful. Ah, okay, good to know. > So SCOPE 2 was developed for the 7600. In it, PPs are relegated to I/O > and (one very special unit) for maintenance. Awww, darn. I thought that was pretty cool about the 6600, actually. Time marches on, I guess. > The operating system proper resides in a set of "nested" program units. > That is, there would, for example be a Buffer Manager with an RA and FL > that encompassed the Record Manager program, which, in turn would > encompass the Job Supervisor...and eventually the user program itself. Thanks for that description, that helps a lot, actually. I'm an "applied" guy and I'm not very imaginative when it comes to theoreticals. So, knowing the nuts and bolts operational stuff helps me to understand how the abstract parts fit together. > A system of "rings of protection" if you will, long before that was in > vogue. Although bulk core (LCM = large core memory; the 7600 term for > 6000 ECS) was used as program storage, > [...] the whole affair turned out to be more cumbersome than originally > envisioned. The SCOPE 2 folks were always a little defensive about this > result of necessity. Hehe, isn't that always the way it goes. Version 2 is always much harder to get right. > CDC was sharply split in culture as well as geography--the Minnesota > clan was cut from different cloth than the Palo Alto-then-Sunnyvale > clan, so discussions from the West coast tend to be more SCOPE-oriented, > while the pickled watermelon rind clan talks fondly about KRONOS. Interesting! I really like little tidbits like this when I'm piecing together a "system narrative" again, it puts some things in perspective. > Working with full words and shifting and masking can be remarkably > efficient. Sure it can. I've done that on the M68k before, too. It's a mechanism I've used for to create more complex mechanisms. Rotate with carry was something I often found useful, too, since I could use the carry bit for a conditional jump. > I recall the "what do we do about more than 64 characters" discussion > was raging. One interesting alternative proposed was to fit 7.5 8-bit > characters to the word, with the odd 4-bit leftover being called a > "snaque" (snaque-byte; get it?). Hehe, clever. > Instead what was done was to reserve some of the lesser used characters > of the 64-character set as "escape" codes for what amounts to 12-bit > characters. So, in theory, you get the advantage of uppercase > compatability, while providing for an extended character set. Very > messy. I guess that's working with what you have, though. > As an aside, take a look at the UNIVAC 1107/1108 instruction set from > roughly the same period. It has an instruction to define the byte size > (36 bit words). Hmm, interesting. I can't really even wrap my head around the implications. If you can't change the register sizes, why would you want to do that ? Was it just to shorten certain operations by increasing or decreasing their width ? > Another cultural difference. CDC had coding standards. Well, they picked ones that are soothing to mine eyes. > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/nos/NOS_COMPASS_Coding_Standard_Jun83.pdf > You develop a disciplined style and you never forget it. That's a pretty micromanaging standard, though (I skimmed it). I can just see some style-nazi jerkhole in the back with the guide nitpicking everyone's comma placement. "How DARE you put a space before the comma on the destination operand!" *apoplectic choke*. Still, I've had gigs where there was no style guide and it can create stress and friction between coders. So, I guess it's better to have one than to just have the wild west. Otherwise, you'll give people a pass who want to show you how clever than can be in various extremely annoying ways. In C, it's usually someone who thinks it's cool to use one-letter variables for everything, and make all his lines 180 columns long. I've never had to peer review someone's ASM. It'd be pretty painful, I think. -Swift From jkeller at gmx.ch Wed Jun 22 16:00:46 2016 From: jkeller at gmx.ch (=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Keller?=) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 23:00:46 +0200 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: I don't have a 3D printer, however, I'm interested in a replica case, too. Jurgen Am 20.06.2016 um 15:20 schrieb Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de: > Hi, > > I own PRM-85 boards for my HP-85 and 86 machines. While they are very useful extension modules for these computers, they lack a proper case. I hate to destroy a working interface or memory module just for the case. > I read in this list that there are more people interested in such a case. > > So I designed a replica case for 3D printing, but did not yet try it out. > > I do not own a 3D printer and the commercial services calculate between $20 to $100 for one shell (upper/lower). > This is a bit expensive for some trials, as I expect that the 3D design would need some iterative refinement to obtain a "perfect" case. > > So: if someone owning a 3D printer and a PRM-85 board is interested in helping me to refine the design by making a test print I could supply the STL files for upper and lower shells. As a "thank-you" I would expect feedback to improve the design. > > Regards, > Martin > > Martin {.} Hepperle {at} mh-aerotools {dot} de > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 16:39:17 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:39:17 -0400 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> <8A920381-0C7F-41AA-95A0-5547C8335818@neoncluster.com> <3ED43646-EB96-4C4E-990D-BF4E8EB776D4@neoncluster.com> <5E4863C02FA34FA7B3C991E81233F4D7@310e2> Message-ID: Hi Philip, Just going through some old emails; did you find a suitable card? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 12:16 AM Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card Well, maybe I?m too cheap, but some of the ebay prices just seem crazy. Hopefully I can find something at a more reasonable price. If not, then I guess I?ll have to bite the bullet. Those Econoram boards look nice and simple, but those RAM16 and RAM 17 boards look like the real deal. Andrew?s board certainly looks nice, but if it did need modifying to work in the IMSAI, I?m guessing I wouldn?t have the skill to do it. Unfortunately. Also everyone has their own philosophy on retro computing, mine is that I?d actually like to keep the systems as close to ?period" as possible. Putting a modern RAM/ROM board in the IMSAI doesn?t fit my philosophy. Thanks again for all the suggestions. > On Mar 27, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > Maybe you could adapt one of John & Andrew's boards? > > http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PROM%20Board/PROM%20Board.htm > > m > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 6:30 PM > Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card > > > Hi Mike, > Well it?s certainly nice to know the Cromemco is also another good option if I want to try DRAM again, but I am feeling that a good SRAM card maybe a safer option, and possibly easier for me to repair if anything goes wrong. > > Thanks for your thoughts > >> On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:32 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> >> FWIW I've never had any problems with Cromemco 64KZ-II DRAM cards. >> >> m >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" >> To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:19 PM >> Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card >> >> >> Hi Jim, thanks for the info. >> Always good to know what people think are good cards, and what aren?t. >> >> Cheers >> >> >>> On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/26/2015 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this system and have decided to start looking for a SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. >>>> >>>> In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: >>>> >>>> 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to be working. >>>> 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. >>>> >>>> Less cards generating heat, and putting stress on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d be looking for either: >>>> >>>> - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 would be preferred for sake of consistency, but obviously not crucial. >>>> - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) >>>> - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k bank turned off >>>> >>>> I would love to hear from anyone with one of the above cards who would be willing to pass it on. >>>> >>>> Much thanks for your time. >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> >>>> Philip >>> I do not have any to pass on, but in the day, you couldn't do better than IMS 16k's I also had a Tarbell CPU with 256k of Dram, and that was the only dynamic ram I ever had in an S100 system. >>> >>> Also if you can find Compupro, I suspect it is as likely to be perfect as the IMS boards are. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jim >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 16:45:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:45:50 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <288a294e-7d24-bcff-e816-bbfbe4be9c43@bitsavers.org> On 6/22/16 1:58 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > I contrast their efforts with > folks like NASA where a lot of (amazing and super important) tech found > it's way to the public domain. And a lot that didn't, the NASA COSMIC software archive, in particular. Too much money to be made with NASTRAN. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 16:54:57 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:54:57 -0500 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <003301d1ccd0$b7dbe340$2793a9c0$@classiccmp.org> A listmember who is quite adept at 3d printing has agreed to give it a shot. Did someone say they had a parts file to try out? J From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 22 18:15:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:15:11 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <576B1BFF.7020003@sydex.com> On 06/22/2016 01:58 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Hmm, after reading the responses, I'm guessing most folks just showed > up with an armload of punch cards and didn't bother with keying > things on the console at the altar of the system. You don't seem to realize how expensive these systems were to operate. IIRC, the *internal* COMSOURCE price charged for an hour of block time was about $500 (that's 1970s dollars, thank you--when $3K would buy you a nice imported sports car). There *was* a PP program called o26 (after the keypunch) but used mostly by CEs and systems installation people. Using the console of such an expensive machine by ordinary users would have been viewed as something akin to feeding $20 bills into a regular keypunch. Remember, this was in the era of "glass walled rooms", where only selected people were allowed to touch the machine. I once made the mistake of trying to mount my own tape at a military base. I thought that I was going to be tackled and led away by MPs. They have people stationed by each bank of tape drives who do nothing but that all day. They don't take kindly to someone trying to take their job. > Well, it probably didn't need to do much multi-process multi-tasking, > so that probably still worked out fine vis-a-vis the competition. You don't understand. Big iron did multitasking and multiprogramming, but the I/O media was cards, tape and printed output. Going "online" was expensive and slow in terms of equipment. > Could you roll them back in by just re-populating memory with the > dump and hooking back to whatever the equivalent of PC and EIP were > on that system and re-launching the job? The rolled-out job didn't lose its files or place in the running job queue; it just got represented by a placeholder bit of memory (usually the exchange package) and then read back in when its turn came up. > I'm not fond of them. They waste a ton of money (classified budget!?) > on projects that never see the light of day. I contrast their efforts > with folks like NASA where a lot of (amazing and super important) > tech found it's way to the public domain. I would cheer to see them > de-funded, renamed, and irrelevant. Sometimes the non-classified parts were repurposed. For example, TCM/TOOS was used for both USAF Logistics and UBS (Switzerland) projects. Called different things, of course and code shared only up to a point. Remember that SAGE was classified. The military and defense industries were major funders of big iron work. Who do you think Seymour Cray sold to as his initial customers for his boxes? > Hehe, isn't that always the way it goes. Version 2 is always much > harder to get right. There was a lesson to be learned from it--give the I/O to another, cheaper, machine. You'll see that philosophy in the later Cray machines. > Sure it can. I've done that on the M68k before, too. It's a mechanism > I've used for to create more complex mechanisms. Rotate with carry > was something I often found useful, too, since I could use the carry > bit for a conditional jump. The 6000 had no carry bits; for that matter, it had no condition codes at all. If you think about it, that makes instruction scheduling much easier because you don't have to worry about instruction side-effects. On the X (60 bit registers), you can branch on the sign of a register or its zero/nonzero contents. B-registers can be queried by a single compare and branch instruction. It also helps that the 6000 is a three-address architecture, so you needn't clobber a source register when testing contents. And the smallest instruction was only 15 bits wide. > Hmm, interesting. I can't really even wrap my head around the > implications. If you can't change the register sizes, why would you > want to do that ? Was it just to shorten certain operations by > increasing or decreasing their width ? To elaborate a bit, you could divide a word into sixths, halves and thirds (6, 18 and 12 bit) parcels and operate on each of them. So not really a "byte". > That's a pretty micromanaging standard, though (I skimmed it). I can > just see some style-nazi jerkhole in the back with the guide > nitpicking everyone's comma placement. "How DARE you put a space > before the comma on the destination operand!" *apoplectic choke*. > Still, I've had gigs where there was no style guide and it can create > stress and friction between coders. So, I guess it's better to have > one than to just have the wild west. Otherwise, you'll give people a > pass who want to show you how clever than can be in various extremely > annoying ways. In C, it's usually someone who thinks it's cool to use > one-letter variables for everything, and make all his lines 180 > columns long. I've never had to peer review someone's ASM. It'd be > pretty painful, I think. It was a necessary evil with long product lives, many people, etc. "Egoless coding". Try doing something else and you wind up with Linux code eventually. Miles of code without a clear comment on what's happening--or why. Worse, yet, stupid comments. I once knew a young programmer who was quite proud that *every* line of his code had a comment on it--even if he never explained what he was doing. e.g., IX6 X3+X4 ADD X3 AND X4 AND PUT SUM IN X6 He carefully explained what each instruction did but not what he was trying to do. The old rule of writing "Tell people what you're going to say, say it--and then tell them what you've said" also applies to commentary, IMOHO. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 18:18:28 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 23:18:28 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <0D3696CC-A1B9-415C-945D-9AD86F9E97E5@comcast.net> References: <20160622131540.7F3EE18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <0D3696CC-A1B9-415C-945D-9AD86F9E97E5@comcast.net> Message-ID: I guess we are talking apples and oranges. I'm not talking chip that can be implemented in tiny sizes. I'm talking chips of the complexity of current Intel and AMD chips. The instruction decode and its effect are a small part of the overall size. The ARM64 is an example of poorly implemented RISC. They put too much of the legacy stuff into it. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 9:01:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? > On Jun 22, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Dwight Kelvey > >> The RIS[C]/CISC is really not even relevant in todays processors since >> the main limiting factor is memory access bandwidth and effective use >> of caches. > > Memory bandwidth has often been the limiting factor over the complete > timeline of CPU's/systems. (It would be interesting to draw up a timeline, > showing the periods when it was, and was not.) Yes, caches can help a lot, > but inevitably they will miss (depending on the application, more or less > often). I can't think of an obvious example where memory speed wasn't a concern. Possibly a reason is that memory would be tailored to the rest of the system (cheaper lower cost core if the CPU didn't need it faster). But, for example, making the memory run well is a large part of why the 6600 looks the way it does. > The RISC/CISC thing actually is kind of relevant to this, because RISC > focuses on getting the CPU cycles to be as fast as possible, and that kind of > implies simpler instructions --> more instructions to get a particular task > done. One consideration is that a RISC CPU requires vastly less silicon. So you can do RISC in very small/cheap chips, or on a larger chip spend far less on the CPU core and leave more room (at constant die cost) for other stuff like caches or auxiliary components. One place you can see this is in the various MIPS or ARM based "system on a chip" products, which have some CPU cores plus memory controllers, cache, UARTs, I/O buses, flash interfaces, crypto cores, RAID coprocessor cores, etc. etc. Or you might find chips with very large core counts, like the Tilera 100-core processors. (For that matter, the DECmpp many-core machine was a RISC machine for the same reason.) paul From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 18:31:03 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:31:03 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <576B1BFF.7020003@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <576B1BFF.7020003@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You don't understand. Big iron did multitasking and multiprogramming, > but the I/O media was cards, tape and printed output. Going "online" > was expensive and slow in terms of equipment. There were many people who saw timesharing as a huge waste of resources, even though the better timesharing systems were actually quite efficient. (And the timesharing systems often simultaneously ran batch jobs.) From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Jun 22 18:46:38 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 23:46:38 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Swift Griggs Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 1:58 PM On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I think Paul's covered that pretty well. I'll add that the more complex >> the display, the more flicker was present. > The descriptions are fascinating. I hope I can see one operating some day. > Do you know of any still operational ? We have one running at LCM, attached to an instance of dtCyber, the 6000/Cyber simulator, via John Zabolitzky's Xilinx-based display adapter. We're in the process of refurbing the one that came with the 6500, which we may attach to the system at some point. >> Well, SCOPE had INTERCOM, an interactive facility, as well as >> EXPORT/IMPORT which was an RJE facility. But the system was targeted >> primarily at batch jobs. > Hmm, after reading the responses, I'm guessing most folks just showed up > with an armload of punch cards and didn't bother with keying things on the > console at the altar of the system. Not a matter of "didn't bother with", but rather "were never allowed to". You don't get to fuck with the console of a multimillion dollar machine if you're not part of the operations or systems programming staff. And it's rarely an armload. Most programs fit into a deck of a few dozen cards or so. If you can't wrap a rubber band around the deck, you kept it in the box. (Oh, yeah, you bought cards in boxes of 2000. About 16" long, IIRC.) >> As an aside, take a look at the UNIVAC 1107/1108 instruction set from >> roughly the same period. It has an instruction to define the byte size >> (36 bit words). > Hmm, interesting. I can't really even wrap my head around the implications. > If you can't change the register sizes, why would you want to do that? Was > it just to shorten certain operations by increasing or decreasing their width? For the same reason you do it in the PDP-6/PDP-10: Data often comes in the form of text characters, which are much smaller than the word size, so it makes sense to pack them in. On the 6/10, the common method was 7-bit ASCII packed 5 per word. With instructions for operating on byte pointers available, you set your initial pointer up such that an increment will end up pointing at the first byte in a word; Macro-10 had a pseudo-op for doing that (or pointing at any other byte in the word, depending on what you needed to do). In addition to the byte size and location within the word, the indexed and/or indirected address of the word is in the one-word byte pointer. The most commonly used instructions are ILDB (Increment pointer and LoaD Byte into AC) and IDPB (Increment pointer and DePosit Byte); there are also LDB and DPB (good for status-checking operations, for example), IBP (Increment Byte Pointer), and on the KL-10 and later processors, ADJBP (ADJust Byte Pointer, which can back up as well as move forward). If the byte size is such that no room is left in the current word, the first byte in the next word in memory is addressed. The networking code uses a lot of 8- and 16-bit byte pointers, to handle the fields in IP datagrams. Other I/O code uses other byte sizes, to pull out or set the relevant parts of device register values. A quick example, which substitutes a space for a rubout in a text string without having to copy it into a second: txtptr: point 7,string ; sets up to point to the non-existent byte ; before string move 10,txtptr ; initialize pointer in loop top: ildb 11,10 ; increments pointer, copies byte into AC 11 skipn 11 ; non-null value? jrst bottom ; no, end of string, exit loop caie 11,177 ; is it a rubout character jrst top ; no, get next character in string movei 11,40 ; change a rubout to a space dpb 11,10 ; deposit byte into same location it came from jrst top ; and continue bottom: PDP-10 operating systems in general use null-terminated strings. Hope that helps you with capital wrapping. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 22 18:54:04 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:54:04 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <53914B7D-85BE-4F32-BFAD-F93D4484A133@shiresoft.com> > On Jun 21, 2016, at 11:07 PM, dwight wrote: > > Well Ben > > I'll tell you a secret. I work for one of those two companies. > > Processors are designed from such code, simulated and then > > synthesized to silicon gates. I don't think that is too much of a > > secret. > > How the architecture is done is very much a secret. I can tell you that it is more complicated than one person can completely understand. It is a team effort with many people working from a general description of what each part does and how it should interact. Some work only on arrays while others work on floating point alu's and so on. Having worked for both of those companies, I can also state the the number of people doing the high level design/architecture of these chips is measured in the 100?s. Most of the time the architects (I was one) write documentation in excruciating detail as to how something is to work (and why) to be handed off to the design team(s) to actually implement. In many ways it would?ve just been easier/faster to write ?code? but it?s harder for others to really know the why?s and wherefore?s and make sure that everything is worked out properly before hand (on one new chip we literally spent *months* working out all of the details for the various reset and power management flows?and that was just the docs describing how it should be done?no implementation). > > Each processor generation shares only a little with previous designs. To try to describe to someone outside how one of todays processor worked inside would require a book for each generation. Some parts are the same while other are vastly different. If the book were several 1000 pages. ;-) > > It is interesting that I just read an article about the Chinese creating a faster supper computer. I suspect that many might think they did it with RISK design while most US made machines were stuck in CISC machines. > > I don't have the real inside scoop but I can tell you what I think. Processors made today are general purpose. Floating point is a side function and not where the most emphasis is placed. I suspect that the Chinese designed the processors they used specifically to do floating point and were not the reuse of general purpose processors. The RISK/CISC is really not even relevant in todays processors since the main limiting factor is memory access bandwidth and effective use of caches. The instruction set used is only to deal with older software. The issue is that (much like many of the earlier supercomputers) is that they are vector processors. Today?s supercomputers have a (large) number of general purpose cores (ie POWER, x86) but they are there to manage the real work horses which are based on graphics chips. It turns out that modern graphics chips have enormous FP capabilities. For example, NVIDIA?s newest/baddest GPU can do 10.6TFLOPS of single precision FP (using 3584 processors on the die). Now multiply by 100?s of GPUs that are put into modern super computers. Are they general purpose, no?they require specialized programming to perform the computations. But the HPC (high performance computing) guys will do what it takes (and have for decades) to get the most out of the HW. TTFN - Guy From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jun 22 19:12:36 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:12:36 -0700 Subject: HP Series-80 computers - PRM-85 board case? ... maybe! In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF92904373059A0C1@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <566a1894-97d5-395d-46b6-50ab4a4417c1@jwsss.com> I have access to an xyzprint Da Vinci Jr, which can't do very large files, but I'd be able to do PLA material with it. the model my friend has doesn't do ABS. BTW, I don't think because you 3d print it that it is low cost. If I am following the size of the part, the printing will be pretty lengthy unless you use a fast printer. I'm not familiar with material cost quantity without the STL files I can't get any estimates on the time to print it. Or if it will fit on this small printer. I'm willing to borrow it, as both my buddy and I have been too lazy to spend the time to go the last mile to hook it up and make something, and try this if it fits. thanks Jim On 6/20/2016 6:20 AM, Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de wrote: > Hi, > > > > So I designed a replica case for 3D printing, but did not yet try it out. > > > Regards, > Martin > > Martin {.} Hepperle {at} mh-aerotools {dot} de > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 22 19:13:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:13:03 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <576B298F.2020109@sydex.com> On 06/22/2016 04:46 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > And it's rarely an armload. Most programs fit into a deck of a few dozen > cards or so. If you can't wrap a rubber band around the deck, you kept it > in the box. (Oh, yeah, you bought cards in boxes of 2000. About 16" long, > IIRC.) Well, if you were a serious programmer, major segments of code came in the drawer of a card filing cabinet (I don't recall exactly, but I believe one held about two boxes.) However, then the idea was to get them onto tape before something dreadful happened, such as being subjected to a jam or being rejected because of a compare error in the reader. I can recall on more than one occasion where an I/O clerk with a cart loaded down with card trays hit a loose trim strip in a raised floor. Mayhem indeed. If you were smart, you drew a long diagonal across the top of the card deck with a felt-tip pen to at least give you some sort of clue about the order. There were SCCS type of systems even back then. SCOPE had UPDATE, which corresponded to KRONOS MODIFY. Each card was assigned a set identifier and sequence number, used as reference when editing. Updates could be YANKed or PURGEd as necessary. --Chuck From dave at 661.org Wed Jun 22 19:14:03 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 00:14:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: FSOT: 9-slot VME backplane Message-ID: I have a 9-slot VME backplane for sale or trade. It weighs about 3 pounds when packed. Pictures at https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582 at N02/albums/72157670027920776 -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jun 22 19:18:28 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:18:28 -0400 Subject: BCPL, early TCP/IP, etc - was Re: Programming for the Alto's Mesa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <809af981-4fbe-6a07-d9ff-3ca077af6276@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-21 3:42 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > Even if you never touch an Alto (and I hope that you someday can do so!), > it's interesting to look at BCPL, an ancestor of C. I learned to read it > fairly well when I was maintaining LCM's first Alto. -- Ian > BCPL was also the language of the very first implementations of TCP/IP. ref https://www.quora.com/In-what-programming-language-was-TCP-IP-written/answer/Tony-Li-19 --Toby From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 22 19:40:53 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <576B298F.2020109@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <576B298F.2020109@sydex.com> Message-ID: Which was the first machine to have an optical card reader (V brass roller)? For card based data processing, such as what my father did for Office Of Civil Rights, that speed improvement made a big difference. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 20:12:00 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:12:00 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <576B298F.2020109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <83ADA263-A455-429E-BCB2-CE3A3314152E@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 8:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Which was the first machine to have an optical card reader (V brass roller)? > > For card based data processing, such as what my father did for Office Of Civil Rights, that speed improvement made a big difference. I'm not sure why that would make it faster. I've only seen brass roller reading in an IBM card sorter, which ran probably as fast as, if not faster than, than the fastest card reader I've ever seen. paul From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Jun 22 20:14:44 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 01:14:44 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <576B298F.2020109@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <576B298F.2020109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B79B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 5:13 PM > On 06/22/2016 04:46 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> And it's rarely an armload. Most programs fit into a deck of a few dozen >> cards or so. If you can't wrap a rubber band around the deck, you kept it >> in the box. (Oh, yeah, you bought cards in boxes of 2000. About 16" long, >> IIRC.) > Well, if you were a serious programmer, major segments of code came in > the drawer of a card filing cabinet (I don't recall exactly, but I > believe one held about two boxes.) However, then the idea was to get > them onto tape before something dreadful happened, such as being > subjected to a jam or being rejected because of a compare error in the > reader. Well, sure, but I was answering Swift's student-sounding question. A card drawer held slightly more than 2.5 boxes' worth of cards, but you wouldn't carry that around, of course. > I can recall on more than one occasion where an I/O clerk with a cart > loaded down with card trays hit a loose trim strip in a raised floor. > Mayhem indeed. If you were smart, you drew a long diagonal across the > top of the card deck with a felt-tip pen to at least give you some sort > of clue about the order. Different colors, different patterns, anything to help. For that matter, cards were manufactured with different colors along the upper edge (where the printing went in a keypunch) to allow for this kind of separation. That predates electronic computers, I would wager. > There were SCCS type of systems even back then. SCOPE had UPDATE, > which corresponded to KRONOS MODIFY. Each card was assigned a set > identifier and sequence number, used as reference when editing. Updates > could be YANKed or PURGEd as necessary. Oh, yes. We had that kind of thing on big IBM gear as well. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 20:15:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:15:27 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <576B1BFF.7020003@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <576B1BFF.7020003@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7E29C111-97E8-46C6-8668-9A43D277D524@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... >> Could you roll them back in by just re-populating memory with the >> dump and hooking back to whatever the equivalent of PC and EIP were >> on that system and re-launching the job? > > The rolled-out job didn't lose its files or place in the running job > queue; it just got represented by a placeholder bit of memory (usually > the exchange package) and then read back in when its turn came up. Slightly different. A rolled out job was a file, containing the whole job state, including stuff like currently attached files, memory content, exchange package (program registers). Like any other "local file" it would show up in memory as an entry in the file table -- just 2 60-bit words if I remember right. When selected by one of the scheduler components to be run again, it would be assigned a control point, memory, rolled back in, and execution resumed. Jobs could also be moved in memory without being rolled out; this could happen if they or some other job changed memory size, forcing something to move to make room. PPU programs would have to watch out for that to happen and "pause for storage relocation". Getting that wrong was a great way to wedge the OS; I've got that t-shirt... paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 20:18:51 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:18:51 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <40DED36F-204D-4421-A3F4-A8700F04C28C@comcast.net> > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ... >> Its illegitimate relative, KRONOS, made extensive use of ECS for support >> of the PLATO system. Not quite. KRONOS treated ECS (rather clumsily) as a kind of disk. PLATO just bypassed all that and managed ECS directly, as memory the way it was originally designed to be used. After startup, PLATO would own all the ECS and do transfers directly, without any OS involvement. It would also use ECS for inter-job communication, and for communication with PPU programs. For example, PLATO disk I/O uses both request queues and data buffers in ECS, which the PPU program accesses. Ditto for terminal I/O. This is how PLATO could support 600 logged in highly interactive users on a pair of 6500 (low end 6000 series, single issue) machines. paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 20:19:38 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 22:19:38 -0300 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <83ADA263-A455-429E-BCB2-CE3A3314152E@comcast.net> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <576B298F.2020109@sydex.com> <83ADA263-A455-429E-BCB2-CE3A3314152E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <576B392A.7000909@gmail.com> On 2016-06-22 10:12 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jun 22, 2016, at 8:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Which was the first machine to have an optical card reader (V brass roller)? >> >> For card based data processing, such as what my father did for Office Of Civil Rights, that speed improvement made a big difference. > I'm not sure why that would make it faster. I've only seen brass roller reading in an IBM card sorter, which ran probably as fast as, if not faster than, than the fastest card reader I've ever seen. > > paul > The sorter only read one column at a time, IBM also made a very fast punch/ reader the 2540 comes to mind, it could 1000 cards a minute and it still used brushes. It read the card sideways into an 80 bit wide buffer and clocked the card data out the "normal" way on the channel. Paul From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 20:24:15 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:24:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <576B1BFF.7020003@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <576B1BFF.7020003@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You don't seem to realize how expensive these systems were to operate. I'm sure I don't (but hey! give me credit for trying). I'm betting that even "expensive" systems of today (barring ultra-massive HPC SSI rigs) are cheap by comparison in inflation-adjusted dollars. I'm 41. I was born in the mid-70's and it was awfully time consuming afterwards learning pre-requisites to my computing skills, such as they are. Things like talking, correct potty techniques etc.. :-) Time I could have spent mainframin' if I'd only been taller. :-) Plus, I have all kinds of different experiences "coming up", as it were. Somewhere near my moment of conscious singularity, it was the age of the PC and the micro. Sure, mainframes were (and kinda still are) going strong. Even for guys who lived it in the 1960's, they didn't grow up with computers around the house I'm betting. So, it's a bit of a shift in our thinking. > IIRC, the *internal* COMSOURCE price charged for an hour of block time > was about $500 (that's 1970s dollars, thank you--when $3K would buy you > a nice imported sports car). Hmm, and you'd want an imported one if it was the 1970s. Ugh. The drugs might have been good and the women more friendly, but the cars were a drag vis-a-vis the 1960s, OMG... What happened.... The 1980's weren't too much better (but I have soft spot for Fieros at least). > There *was* a PP program called o26 (after the keypunch) but used mostly > by CEs and systems installation people. Using the console of such an > expensive machine by ordinary users would have been viewed as something > akin to feeding $20 bills into a regular keypunch. Hmm, I totally didn't consider that, but certainly seems like the kind of way people would act around something so valuable and expensive. I guess my "altar of the console" phrase wasn't so bad, then (ie.. half true). > Remember, this was in the era of "glass walled rooms", where only > selected people were allowed to touch the machine. Well, I started with computing very early, too. So, nowadays when I see those rooms I'm normally in the priesthood and am _expected_ to go fix some very expensive systems (I've put hands on production Origin 3k's, a couple of UNICOS based Cray systems, lots more). So, I kinda forgot about the outsider perspective, too. With many fewer systems around to work with, I'm sure the glass-walled sort of exclusivity got that much more serious. > I once made the mistake of trying to mount my own tape at a military > base. I thought that I was going to be tackled and led away by MPs. > They have people stationed by each bank of tape drives who do nothing > but that all day. They don't take kindly to someone trying to take > their job. LOL, there's initiative and there's orders. You had initiative. They had orders. > You don't understand. Big iron did multitasking and multiprogramming, > but the I/O media was cards, tape and printed output. Going "online" > was expensive and slow in terms of equipment. Hmm, but wouldn't being able to multitask and multiprocess lead directly to wanting to have multiple terminals, card readers, tape readers, etc..? Then wouldn't someone be responsible for setting process priorities and managing the process scheduling? I told you I was an igmo on this. All I have to go on are sketchy internet archives that don't give me a sense of the real way these systems were used by real people. The only other source about mainframes I had growing up was my grandmother, whom I worshiped as a child and worked on IBM gear. However, who knows what kind of kid-brained-notions I have grown into some personal fiction since then. > The rolled-out job didn't lose its files or place in the running job > queue; it just got represented by a placeholder bit of memory (usually > the exchange package) and then read back in when its turn came up. Ohhh, okay. That makes sense. > Sometimes the non-classified parts were repurposed. Some were, yes, and you cite some great examples. I'm just saying I'm more in favor of dumping bazillions of dollars on projects that more or less default into the public domain rather than default into top secret and someone has to justify having them released or shared. SDI in the 1980s sticks in my craw, I suppose. Unless of course they were secretly very successful and, in that case, I say "awesome"! I am strongly in support of not getting nuked! > Who do you think Seymour Cray sold to as his initial customers for his > boxes? Fair point. I'm not anti-military, but the NSA I'd like to see behave more responsibly. > There was a lesson to be learned from it--give the I/O to another, > cheaper, machine. You'll see that philosophy in the later Cray > machines. I've noticed with really large systems they have some very interesting points of cleavage (just like their sales force, hehe). They split things up in ways that micros just aren't scaled for. It's one of the things I find so interesting about them (same goes for the sales force *grin*). > The 6000 had no carry bits; for that matter, it had no condition codes > at all. If you think about it, that makes instruction scheduling much > easier because you don't have to worry about instruction side-effects. Carry bits aren't a hack I'm particularly married to anyway, just something to use when needed, 'cause the hardware wants it that way. That sort of thing can be done in lots of ways, as this CDC box illustrates. > B-registers can be queried by a single compare and branch instruction. That saves some code. I think I've seen other platforms that have similar features, but I'm only a hack at ASM in general. There are so many clever things I've seen people do with 68k ASM (the only one I can really get anywhere with) that sort of blew my mind insomuch that I have no idea how they ever got the idea for some of these algorithms or "tricks" in the first place. Perhaps at the foot of a Zen master somewhere? There was a guy I knew who went by "Sauron" in the 1990s... He was like Master Po. > It also helps that the 6000 is a three-address architecture, so you > needn't clobber a source register when testing contents. .... and another 2-3 lines saved ! It does add up, though. > To elaborate a bit, you could divide a word into sixths, halves and > thirds (6, 18 and 12 bit) parcels and operate on each of them. So not > really a "byte". Ah, okay. They had specific factors, then. > It was a necessary evil with long product lives, many people, etc. > "Egoless coding". Try doing something else and you wind up with Linux > code eventually. Agreed (sadly). > Miles of code without a clear comment on what's happening--or why. No comments doesn't bother me as much as one-letter variables and over-compressing the name of everything to the point I can't figure out what they were even getting at. People often laugh when they see my code because of how long and descriptive the actual code is. Sometimes they complain that it makes it slower to slog through typing everything. I will trade code-clarity for (almost) everything else. > Worse, yet, stupid comments. I once knew a young programmer who was > quite proud that *every* line of his code had a comment on it--even if > he never explained what he was doing. That would be entertaining for the first few minutes, though! -Swift From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 20:38:41 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:38:41 -0600 Subject: where to find DEC ECO's for KB11-A? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B443@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5769B0BC.5000800@fritzm.org> <38496efd-3563-d384-3323-c82e35468b18@bitsavers.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B443@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Does the scanner have a setting to do row-major vs. column-major > scanning? I ask from experience: When I was putting Tops-10 v6.03A > on our 1070, I had to have a fiche listing of VMSER.MAC scanned to > PDF. As you know, DEC FS fiche sheets are column-major, but the PDF > came back to me row-major. I had to print it out on 11x17 to reorder > the pages for typein. > > Later, when I had the time, I used Acrobat to reorder the pages in > the PDF, but that was also a major PITA. If need be, I'll write a program for Al to automatically transpose the page ordering of the PDF. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 20:45:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:45:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > We have one running at LCM, attached to an instance of dtCyber, the > 6000/Cyber simulator, via John Zabolitzky's Xilinx-based display > adapter. We're in the process of refurbing the one that came with the > 6500, which we may attach to the system at some point. Is that "Living Computer Museum" ? You are in Seattle, right? I'll stop by for sure if I'm in the area. I'm in Denver. > Not a matter of "didn't bother with", but rather "were never allowed > to". You don't get to fuck with the console of a multimillion dollar > machine if you're not part of the operations or systems programming > staff. Like I was saying with Chuck, I just wasn't thinking about that, but it makes total sense when you put the $$$ into perspective. > For the same reason you do it in the PDP-6/PDP-10: Data often comes in > the form of text characters, which are much smaller than the word size, > so it makes sense to pack them in. I get it. I just wondered about the mechanics of it. > On the 6/10, the common method was 7-bit ASCII packed 5 per word. [...] Everyone had some whack-a-doodle way to encode character sets back then (and now it's just as bad or worse with things like UTF-8). People who complain about twos-compliment being a weird hack should focus more on all the ways folks encoded their charset. That's a veritable cornucopia of the arbitrary. > ADJBP (ADJust Byte Pointer, which can back up as well as move forward). I find that weird, but possibly useful once I figured out how to implement it. Did that morph into something else as the platform matured or newer microcode hit the deck? > The networking code uses a lot of 8- and 16-bit byte pointers, to handle > the fields in IP datagrams. Convenient in this case, for sure. Hehe, not as convenient as me calling bind(), connect(), and send(), but hey apples to oranges, I know. :-) > Other I/O code uses other byte sizes, to pull out or set the relevant > parts of device register values. Well, I'd think it'd be helpful with I/O related code to deal with the real-world constellation of block devices from different devices. You could ratchet up when you needed throughput, and back down when you needed lower latency and finesse. > A quick example, which substitutes a space for a rubout in a text string > without having to copy it into a second: > > txtptr: point 7,string ; sets up to point to the non-existent byte > ; before string > > move 10,txtptr ; initialize pointer in loop > top: ildb 11,10 ; increments pointer, copies byte into AC 11 > skipn 11 ; non-null value? > jrst bottom ; no, end of string, exit loop > caie 11,177 ; is it a rubout character > jrst top ; no, get next character in string > movei 11,40 ; change a rubout to a space > dpb 11,10 ; deposit byte into same location it came from > jrst top ; and continue > bottom: Ah. labels are grand, and yes no extra register or buffer needed! > PDP-10 operating systems in general use null-terminated strings. You mean the way $DIETY intended? :-) > Hope that helps you with capital wrapping. Har! These days folks let the MS Paper Clip do that! -Swift From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jun 22 21:13:41 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 22:13:41 -0400 Subject: Now OT - Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-22 9:45 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > ... > Everyone had some whack-a-doodle way to encode character sets back then > (and now it's just as bad or worse with things like UTF-8). Do you have a counterproposal? What problem do you think UTF-8 is trying to solve? > People who > complain about twos-compliment being a weird hack ... I haven't heard that particular complaint. Got a cite? --Toby > > -Swift > > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 21:26:10 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:26:10 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > People who > complain about twos-compliment being a weird hack Encode negative integers using this one weird trick! By the way, it's two's complement. A twos compliment would be something like, "Hey, nice twos!". #overlypedantic :-) >> ADJBP (ADJust Byte Pointer, which can back up as well as move forward). > I find that weird, but possibly useful once I figured out how to implement > it. It's just pointer arithmetic to add a signed integer to a character pointer, to move the pointer forward or backward some number of character positions. Of course, it can be used on anything represented in a PDP-10 byte, which can be any number of bits up to 36; it doesn't have to be a character per se, but character handling is possibly the most common use of the PDP-10 byte instructions. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 22:05:13 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:05:13 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Now OT - Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, Toby Thain wrote: > Do you have a counterproposal? What problem do you think UTF-8 is trying > to solve? Oh, heck no! I don't have any wish to wade into that particular swamp full of alligators. I have no counterproposal and as far as "what problem is UTF-8 trying to solve?" my repsonse is "too many at once." > > People who > > complain about twos-compliment being a weird hack ... > I haven't heard that particular complaint. Got a cite? Just some internet bungholes on reddit. Brother, just remember, *you* asked, and you can never get the time back: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/d92jj/why_computers_use_twos_complement_to_represent/ -Swift From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 23:17:12 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:17:12 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? In-Reply-To: <53914B7D-85BE-4F32-BFAD-F93D4484A133@shiresoft.com> References: <5273E854-603A-46F2-9D74-6799ADA99CDB@comcast.net> <191e0109-0e0b-12d6-2619-467197a8739b@telegraphics.com.au> <69F73DCE-D767-4945-9FF3-4376648A483C@comcast.net> <507f9370-b80e-bcf1-6757-12ff88d34974@jetnet.ab.ca> <5768BA25.4020305@sydex.com> <57695C3C.9040408@sydex.com> , <53914B7D-85BE-4F32-BFAD-F93D4484A133@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Are they general purpose, no?they require specialized > programming to perform the computations. But the HPC > (high performance > computing) guys will do what it takes (and have for > decades) to get the most out of the HW. I have a friend that works for NSA that does just that. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Guy Sotomayor Jr Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 4:54:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: CDC 6600 emulation - was Re: How do they make Verilog code for unknown ICs? > On Jun 21, 2016, at 11:07 PM, dwight wrote: > > Well Ben > > I'll tell you a secret. I work for one of those two companies. > > Processors are designed from such code, simulated and then > > synthesized to silicon gates. I don't think that is too much of a > > secret. > > How the architecture is done is very much a secret. I can tell you that it is more complicated than one person can completely understand. It is a team effort with many people working from a general description of what each part does and how it should interact. Some work only on arrays while others work on floating point alu's and so on. Having worked for both of those companies, I can also state the the number of people doing the high level design/architecture of these chips is measured in the 100?s. Most of the time the architects (I was one) write documentation in excruciating detail as to how something is to work (and why) to be handed off to the design team(s) to actually implement. In many ways it would?ve just been easier/faster to write ?code? but it?s harder for others to really know the why?s and wherefore?s and make sure that everything is worked out properly before hand (on one new chip we literally spent *months* working out all of the details for the various reset and power management flows?and that was just the docs describing how it should be done?no implementation). > > Each processor generation shares only a little with previous designs. To try to describe to someone outside how one of todays processor worked inside would require a book for each generation. Some parts are the same while other are vastly different. If the book were several 1000 pages. ;-) > > It is interesting that I just read an article about the Chinese creating a faster supper computer. I suspect that many might think they did it with RISK design while most US made machines were stuck in CISC machines. > > I don't have the real inside scoop but I can tell you what I think. Processors made today are general purpose. Floating point is a side function and not where the most emphasis is placed. I suspect that the Chinese designed the processors they used specifically to do floating point and were not the reuse of general purpose processors. The RISK/CISC is really not even relevant in todays processors since the main limiting factor is memory access bandwidth and effective use of caches. The instruction set used is only to deal with older software. The issue is that (much like many of the earlier supercomputers) is that they are vector processors. Today?s supercomputers have a (large) number of general purpose cores (ie POWER, x86) but they are there to manage the real work horses which are based on graphics chips. It turns out that modern graphics chips have enormous FP capabilities. For example, NVIDIA?s newest/baddest GPU can do 10.6TFLOPS of single precision FP (using 3584 processors on the die). Now multiply by 100?s of GPUs that are put into modern super computers. Are they general purpose, no?they require specialized programming to perform the computations. But the HPC (high performance computing) guys will do what it takes (and have for decades) to get the most out of the HW. TTFN - Guy From lists at loomcom.com Wed Jun 22 17:34:51 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:34:51 -0500 Subject: Leaking DEC VR201 monochrome monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160622223451.GA28213@loomcom.com> * On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 09:42:25AM -0700, Ian Finder wrote: > Well, screen rot. Why didn't you say so in the first place! > > The nasty substance that you came into contact with is almost certainly the > decomposed RTV silicone leaking out. > > Gross stuff. Seconded and thirded. This is exactly what the problem is. One of my ADM-3a terminals had an identical issue with the broken down adhesive between the CRT and the implosion protection screen. It leaked down onto the motherboard and it was only cured by fixing the screen rot. If I remember correctly, I used both isopropyl alcohol and Goo Gone (citrus adhesive remover) to clean up the spilled gunk. -Seth From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 19:28:20 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:28:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > The RICM just picked up a PDP-11/40 chassis that was modified to accept a > PDP-11/23 board set. It also contains a custom board to interface the > PDP-11/23 to the original PDP-11/40 front panel. It is quite an > accomplishment to get the Q-Bus board set working in the Unibus chassis. > I looked at the backplane pictures that I took after the rescue. I assumed that the hex-wide 8-slot backplane in the front of the card cage was the original 11/40 processor backplane. On the back it says "LSI 11 BACKPLANE", so the operation is not so mysterious. I had never seen a hex-wide Q-bus backplane before this. There are some pictures of the system and the Q-Bus to 11/40 front panel interface here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1140 -- Michael Thompson From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 19:35:54 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:35:54 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 8:28 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > I looked at the backplane pictures that I took after the rescue. I assumed > that the hex-wide 8-slot backplane in the front of the card cage was the > original 11/40 processor backplane. On the back it says "LSI 11 BACKPLANE", > so the operation is not so mysterious. I had never seen a hex-wide Q-bus > backplane before this. I have one... it came to me in an 11/34 with a lone IVB11 mounted in it (Qbus IEEE-488) from a Physics Lab, and might have been marked on the paper label DDV11CK. It was all DEC, no Abel Qniverter, but I can't recall what DEC module was on the Unibus to drive the Qbus (the Qbus input paddle card was one of the ordinary ones used in a BA11N or similar). I never got the history, but presumably, some time in the late 1970s, Ohio State ordered a PDP-11/34 with IEEE-488 and for whatever reason (no IB11 available? IB11 EOLed?), it came with an IBV11 and a bus converter. I'd like to dig that one out someday and try a Qbus SCSI card on a Unibus machine. It'll probably work if I can get a bootstrap on the box. > There are some pictures of the system and the Q-Bus to 11/40 front panel > interface here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1140 Neat! I've dug into the 11/70 front panel schematics, so I'm pretty sure it's "easy" to get the Qbus to drive the LEDs, at least the address and data LEDs, but I'm wondering about the switches and how many of them work. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 19:50:56 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:50:56 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > I looked at the backplane pictures that I took after the rescue. I assumed > that the hex-wide 8-slot backplane in the front of the card cage was the > original 11/40 processor backplane. On the back it says "LSI 11 BACKPLANE", > so the operation is not so mysterious. I had never seen a hex-wide Q-bus > backplane before this. > > There are some pictures of the system and the Q-Bus to 11/40 front panel > interface here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1140 > Maybe a DDV11-B? See pages 205-210 of the PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1983-84: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EB-23144-18_QbusIntrfs_1983.pdf The screws on the connector blocks in groups of 1 on the first and last rows and 3 in the center rows looks similar to those shown in Figure 2 DDV11-B Module Installation and Slot Assignments on page 207. From bryan at bceassociates.com Wed Jun 22 19:21:33 2016 From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:21:33 -0400 Subject: CYBER-171 Message-ID: Wondering if anyone out there has such a machine running. It was literally the first computer system I used (at Indiana State University back in the 70's). I had some real fun doing FORTRAN and Pascal programming on that thing. Thanks, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 23 00:31:33 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 22:31:33 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <40DED36F-204D-4421-A3F4-A8700F04C28C@comcast.net> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <40DED36F-204D-4421-A3F4-A8700F04C28C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <576B7435.6010100@sydex.com> On 06/22/2016 06:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: ... >>> Its illegitimate relative, KRONOS, made extensive use of ECS for >>> support of the PLATO system. > > Not quite. KRONOS treated ECS (rather clumsily) as a kind of disk. > PLATO just bypassed all that and managed ECS directly, as memory the > way it was originally designed to be used. After startup, PLATO > would own all the ECS and do transfers directly, without any OS > involvement. It would also use ECS for inter-job communication, and > for communication with PPU programs. For example, PLATO disk I/O > uses both request queues and data buffers in ECS, which the PPU > program accesses. Ditto for terminal I/O. That's where SCOPE differed. A program could request a specific amount of ECS, just like CM field lenght. At least that was the situation in say SCOPE 3.1.6. ECS wasn't terribly useful in the early days. Of course, under Zodiac (and TOOS), we kept whole program chains in ECS shared among up to 4 systems. A chain could run in any machine and have any of its modules accessed from any other machine or ECS directly. We were very ECS hungry at a time when CDC wondered if anyone would be willing to buy the stuff. We may have had the first 4MW ECS setup sold to a customer. None of our PPUs accessed ECS directly, however. Our database system didn't use files either--completely random access across, IIRC, up to 144 844s online. Neither SCOPE or KRONOS was up to that job. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 23 01:04:53 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 23:04:53 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <7E29C111-97E8-46C6-8668-9A43D277D524@comcast.net> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <576B1BFF.7020003@sydex.com> <7E29C111-97E8-46C6-8668-9A43D277D524@comcast.net> Message-ID: <576B7C05.3080706@sydex.com> On 06/22/2016 06:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Slightly different. A rolled out job was a file, containing the > whole job state, including stuff like currently attached files, > memory content, exchange package (program registers). Like any other > "local file" it would show up in memory as an entry in the file table > -- just 2 60-bit words if I remember right. When selected by one of > the scheduler components to be run again, it would be assigned a > control point, memory, rolled back in, and execution resumed. Yes, it was a file, but it still occupied a control point--at least it did under SCOPE. On CYBER 200 SOS, each controlee maintained a "drop file", which held modified pages, the "invisible package" and file information, so that a job could be stopped and restarted any time later by the user. Of course, we also had memory-mapped files. > Jobs could also be moved in memory without being rolled out; this > could happen if they or some other job changed memory size, forcing > something to move to make room. PPU programs would have to watch out > for that to happen and "pause for storage relocation". Getting that > wrong was a great way to wedge the OS; I've got that t-shirt... Basic memory management that I referred to. Initially, under SCOPE, this was pretty much the only OS task that the CPU took part in--"storage move", as moving memory was much faster if done by the CPU than PPUs. If you had a 6600, you could do it with a simple in-stack loop that moved two words per iteration with no wasted cycles. If you had a 6400/Cyber 73, you could use the CMU (Cyber) or ECS if available. That was the only way to keep memory busy on the lower Cybers. Performance was always an issue. When SCOPE 3.4 came out, a new CIO request was introduced for the benefit of the the loader. You presented CIO with a request "Read List String", which was nothing more than a linked list of disk addresses (well, RBT numbers) which were passed to 1SP, and 1SP would do its best to keep the program's read buffer full. It made for very fast loader operation. Unfortunately, some wiseacre decided that he could keep adding to the list of addresses and keep 1SP busy forever--which meant that any disk-resident PP code, such as 1EJ couldn't be loaded either. Fortunately, a fix was easy--simply have 1SP drop any too-long requests back into the queue. That business with a PP not being able to do I/O on a job with a storage move pending was one reason that we had to write our own 844 servicing program for Zodiac--DBD. All buffers were permanently allocated in CM and data moved in an out of those. I think that 1SP--the SCOPE "stack processor" was one area where SCOPE and KRONOS differed significantly. On SCOPE, pending requests were sorted according to priority based on nearness to the current disk position and the number of times it had been passed over for a more favorable request. From my discussions with Greg, I seem to recall that KRONOS processed disk requests on a first-come, first-served basis. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Jun 23 02:22:08 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:22:08 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 Message-ID: <8edb5e.44f68fe6.449ce820@aol.com> now, there is a 11/23 I could love! ---Ed# In a message dated 6/22/2016 9:44:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, glen.slick at gmail.com writes: BACKPLANE", > so the operation is not so mysterious. I had never seen a hex-wide Q-bus > backplane before this. > > There are some pictures of the system and the Q-Bus to 11/40 front panel > interface here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1140 > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Jun 23 02:22:08 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:22:08 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/40 modified to be a PDP-11/23 Message-ID: <8edb5e.44f68fe6.449ce820@aol.com> now, there is a 11/23 I could love! ---Ed# In a message dated 6/22/2016 9:44:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, glen.slick at gmail.com writes: BACKPLANE", > so the operation is not so mysterious. I had never seen a hex-wide Q-bus > backplane before this. > > There are some pictures of the system and the Q-Bus to 11/40 front panel > interface here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1140 > From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Thu Jun 23 02:20:52 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 17:20:52 +1000 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <20160622160139.73E2518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2f40c8f1-3df9-fa0c-9256-ff115153258b@labyrinth.net.au> On 23/06/2016 2:38 AM, Brian Walenz wrote: > On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > Werner Buchholz (editor), "Planning a Computer System: Project Stretch", >> McGraw-Hill, New York, 1962 >> > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-7030-Planning-McJones.pdf > > >> Speaking of books, there's also a CDC 6600 book: >> >> Jim E. Thornton, "Design of A Computer: The Control Data 6600", >> Scott, Foresman, Glenview, 1970 >> > http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/cdc/6x00/books/DesignOfAComputer_CDC6600.pdf > > (apologies for using the non-official link) > > Really gotta do that Bibliography! >> Noel Here's a Dr Dobbs article with a couple of pics. Takes me back. http://www.drdobbs.com/control-data-6600-the-supercomputer-arri/184404102 I joined CDC in Melbourne, Aust in 1972, worked mostly on 3200 machines - Didn't like the Cybers, but admired the horsepower. I could fix a 3200, every time, that was the best training I ever had, alone with my machine in Hobart, I loved it. When that ended, got into PDP 3rd party maint. Thus was a career made. Lionel. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 23 09:31:16 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:31:16 -0400 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:05 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > ... > Just some internet bungholes on reddit. Brother, just remember, *you* > asked, and you can never get the time back: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/d92jj/why_computers_use_twos_complement_to_represent/ Nice. I have a copy of 1948 (!) lecture notes on computer design. It discusses one's complement and two's complement. It points out the advantage of two's complement (no two zeroes) but also the disadvantage that negating is harder (requiring two steps). In early computers that was significant, which explains why you see one's complement there. Another consideration which may have played a role is that with one's complement you need fewer instructions: bitwise complement serves both for Boolean logic and for negate, for example. The "two zeroes" problem is handled best by using the CDC 6000 technique: it doesn't use an adder, but rather a subtractor (so adding is done by subtracting the complement). If you do that -- an exercise for the student to demonstrate why -- the result will never be negative zero unless there were negative zeroes in the inputs. In particular, adding x and -x will produce +0 for all x. I just added a few more machines to the table in the Wikipedia article referenced by the comments you mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_(computer_architecture) Another interesting aspect where people may not be aware of how much variety existed is in the encoding of floating point numbers. IEEE is now the standard, but PDP-11 users will remember the DEC format which is a bit different. CDC and IBM were different still. The Dutch machine Electrologica X8 had a particularly interesting approach (parts of which were adopted, many years later, by the IEEE standard). paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jun 23 07:54:32 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 08:54:32 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <2f40c8f1-3df9-fa0c-9256-ff115153258b@labyrinth.net.au> References: <20160622160139.73E2518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2f40c8f1-3df9-fa0c-9256-ff115153258b@labyrinth.net.au> Message-ID: <50cec2d0-3ce2-b1a9-a173-c52b0afbd9b8@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-06-23 3:20 AM, Lionel Johnson wrote: > ... > I joined CDC in Melbourne, Aust in 1972, worked mostly on 3200 machines > - Didn't like the Cybers, but admired the horsepower. I could fix a > 3200, every time, that was the best training I ever had, alone with my > machine in Hobart, I loved it. When that ended, got into PDP 3rd party > maint. Thus was a career made. > Lionel. > > Hi Lionel I heard that the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology had a 6600? Presumably you worked on it? --Toby From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 09:50:35 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:50:35 +0200 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Another interesting aspect where people may not be aware of how much > variety existed is in the encoding of floating point numbers. IEEE > is now the standard, but PDP-11 users will remember the DEC format > which is a bit different. CDC and IBM were different still. The > Dutch machine Electrologica X8 had a particularly interesting > approach (parts of which were adopted, many years later, by the IEEE > standard). DEC floating point is still very much around, as VAX floating point. Alpha had both IEEE and VAX floating point, and compilers on VMS defaults to VAX floating point. On Itanium CPU's, the chip only has IEEE floating point, but VAX floating point formats are provided by the OS, and many customers still compile their code to use VAX floating point formats. There are many, many varieties of floating point formats. This page gives a nice overview: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/cp0201.htm Camiel. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 23 10:17:05 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 08:17:05 -0700 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> On 06/23/2016 07:31 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I have a copy of 1948 (!) lecture notes on computer design. It > discusses one's complement and two's complement. It points out the > advantage of two's complement (no two zeroes) but also the > disadvantage that negating is harder (requiring two steps). In early > computers that was significant, which explains why you see one's > complement there. There are also a few obscure bit-twiddling tricks that work in ones complement, but not in two's. > Another interesting aspect where people may not be aware of how much > variety existed is in the encoding of floating point numbers. IEEE > is now the standard, but PDP-11 users will remember the DEC format > which is a bit different. And by the time you got to the VAX, the issue became *which* floating point format? (D,E,F or G). > CDC and IBM were different still. The Dutch machine Electrologica X8 > had a particularly interesting approach (parts of which were adopted, > many years later, by the IEEE standard). IBM's S/360 FP format was a big weakness of that machine. Single-precision 32-bit word with an exponent that indicated the power of 16 (not 2) to be applied to the mantissa (i.e., normalizing the mantissa only shifted to the nearest 4 bits, not 1). CDC, on the other hand, dedicated 48 bits to the mantissa of single-precision numbers, In other words, CDC's single-precision was roughly the equivalent of IBM's double-precision. To the scientific community, this was a big selling point. Of course, there were also machines that used the floating point facility for all arithmetic. Integer computations is performed as a subset of floating-point. This has the ramification that an integer does not occupy an entire word, but only part of it. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 23 11:05:55 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 12:05:55 -0400 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 23, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > ... > There are many, many varieties of floating point formats. This page > gives a nice overview: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/cp0201.htm Nice. The CDC 6000 description isn't quite right (or not clear) because a negative float is formed by complementing the entire word, not just the mantissa part. I'll feed the Electrologica details to the author of that page; they are different from everything shown there and have some interesting/useful properties. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 23 11:07:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 09:07:40 -0700 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <03540eed-9531-4ae5-c915-2a805344d78f@bitsavers.org> On 6/23/16 8:17 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 06/23/2016 07:31 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I have a copy of 1948 (!) lecture notes on computer design. It >> discusses one's complement and two's complement. It points out the >> advantage of two's complement (no two zeroes) but also the >> disadvantage that negating is harder (requiring two steps). In early >> computers that was significant, which explains why you see one's >> complement there. > > There are also a few obscure bit-twiddling tricks that work in ones > complement, but not in two's. > I have also heard that 2s compliment was popular in shorter word length machines because 1s compliment multiple precision arithmetic is a PITA to implement. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 23 11:09:37 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 12:09:37 -0400 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5D83C086-AA15-47E3-BF53-74F3885B9987@comcast.net> > On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:17 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > Of course, there were also machines that used the floating point > facility for all arithmetic. Integer computations is performed as a > subset of floating-point. This has the ramification that an integer > does not occupy an entire word, but only part of it. The CDC 6000 did that in part. It has full 60 bit integer add/subtract, but multiply and divide are done using the floating point operations so they work only for numbers up to 47 bits. The Electrologica X8 is yet another take on this. There, the mantissa is viewed as an integer, and the normalization rule is to make the exponent as close to zero as possible without losing bits. The consequence is that all integral values under 2**40 are represented as exponent zero and the mantissa equal to the number, which amounts to simply the integer representation of that number. This makes conversion from float to integer rather easy (and of course, conversion in the other direction takes no code at all). paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 23 11:11:41 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 12:11:41 -0400 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: <03540eed-9531-4ae5-c915-2a805344d78f@bitsavers.org> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> <03540eed-9531-4ae5-c915-2a805344d78f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <05FD4C7C-F494-4E7A-BC6F-433D99028542@comcast.net> > On Jun 23, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > ... > I have also heard that 2s compliment was popular in shorter word length > machines because 1s compliment multiple precision arithmetic is a PITA > to implement. That's true. It certainly can be done and has been. But since one's complement arithmetic uses end around carry, when you have multiple word you have to defeat the word carry and instead do the carry around the whole number. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 23 12:08:29 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:08:29 -0400 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: <05FD4C7C-F494-4E7A-BC6F-433D99028542@comcast.net> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> <03540eed-9531-4ae5-c915-2a805344d78f@bitsavers.org> <05FD4C7C-F494-4E7A-BC6F-433D99028542@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 23, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Jun 23, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> ... >> I have also heard that 2s compliment was popular in shorter word length >> machines because 1s compliment multiple precision arithmetic is a PITA >> to implement. > > That's true. It certainly can be done and has been. But since one's complement arithmetic uses end around carry, when you have multiple word you have to defeat the word carry and instead do the carry around the whole number. Something to look into.... in the Electrologica machines (Dutch computers from the late 1950s to mid 1960s), double-length values are encoded with the sign bit replicated in each word. I wonder if that makes this problem go away (entirely or mostly). paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 23 12:13:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:13:12 -0700 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: <5D83C086-AA15-47E3-BF53-74F3885B9987@comcast.net> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> <5D83C086-AA15-47E3-BF53-74F3885B9987@comcast.net> Message-ID: <576C18A8.6050607@sydex.com> On 06/23/2016 09:09 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > The CDC 6000 did that in part. It has full 60 bit integer > add/subtract, but multiply and divide are done using the floating > point operations so they work only for numbers up to 47 bits. The CYBER 200/STAR 100 limited integers to 48 (of 64) or 24 (of 32) bits. The same held for addresses (this was a bit-addressable machine). The upper 16 bits of a 64 bit word is reserved for exponents and lengths. Integer instructions were available for adding and subtracting the lower 48 bits without affecting the upper 16. Boolean operations, of course, worked on all bits of a word. If the user needed extended-precision binary (or decimal) arithmetic, he could turn to the string instructions which provided 4-banger math on integers up to 65KB in length. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 12:20:13 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:20:13 +0200 Subject: LINC-8 and PDP-8 manuals Message-ID: I have been going through our library of documentation and found some items that are duplicates. There are a LINC-8 programming manual, PDP-8 DecTape programming manual, PDP-8/L maintenance manual, PDP-8/e maintenance manual volume I and volume III. http://i.imgur.com/YEAdnZV.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/pvsypvY.jpg?1 Trade for something interesting! Other things that is also for trade: http://www.datormuseum.se/available /Mattis From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jun 23 12:37:58 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:37:58 +0200 Subject: two's complement, was Re: Now OT In-Reply-To: (Paul Koning's message of "Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:08:29 -0400") References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8ac59580-604f-3fc0-d912-ad70a5b8ee87@telegraphics.com.au> <3BD93605-2B9A-44DC-94B6-4C75ADC88D7B@comcast.net> <576BFD71.2010806@sydex.com> <03540eed-9531-4ae5-c915-2a805344d78f@bitsavers.org> <05FD4C7C-F494-4E7A-BC6F-433D99028542@comcast.net> Message-ID: <86fus3x0uh.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Paul Koning writes: > in the Electrologica machines (Dutch computers from the late 1950s to > mid 1960s), double-length values are encoded with the sign bit > replicated in each word. The PDP-10 double integer format also duplicates the sign bit, but is two's complement. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 23 12:47:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:47:09 -0400 Subject: Forth for RSTS In-Reply-To: <7ED90663-A2A5-4C01-8744-0531BEC22E36@comcast.net> References: <56896C20.3090901@gmail.com> <56897475.6000901@softjar.se> <7ED90663-A2A5-4C01-8744-0531BEC22E36@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9CFAB3B2-53E4-4805-8D29-148D1A93A244@comcast.net> > On Jan 3, 2016, at 4:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > ... > This Forth implementation is a port of Fig-FORTH by John S. James, with some RSTS-specific magic added. I just realized the file header says that it is in the public domain, so I suppose I should post the source... Done. Thanks to Al Kossow, it now lives on Bitsavers, in bits/DEC/pdp11/forth/forth.mac This is the RSTS run-time system, from V9.6 and later. I haven't tried building it on older versions; the comments say it works back to V7.2. I don't remember why that version is mentioned. Run time systems existed before then, though a few details did change over time. The original version was for RSX and RT-11. I did the RSTS port, and Kevin Herbert added some more stuff to it later on. The biggest change is to make the vocabulary machinery match the ANSI Forth 83 standard, which allows for lots of separate vocabularies and arranging their search order. This was needed to allow SDA to define a set of 32 bit replacements for the standard (16 bit) arithmetic operators of native Forth, without getting itself all confused. Build instructions are in the comments near the top of the file. There's very little to it. Enjoy. paul From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Jun 23 13:13:30 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:13:30 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <576AC5F1.6030904@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3B6B3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED3BCB1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Swift Griggs Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 6:46 PM >On Wed, 22 Jun 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: >> We have [a DD60] running at LCM, attached to an instance of dtCyber, the >> 6000/Cyber simulator, via John Zabolitzky's Xilinx-based display adapter. >> We're in the process of refurbing the one that came with the 6500, which >> we may attach to the system at some point. > Is that "Living Computer Museum" ? You are in Seattle, right? I'll stop by > for sure if I'm in the area. I'm in Denver. That's correct. We're building out the first floor of the building right now (open during construction), for a grand reopening in early November. The new exhibit space will take us beyond vintage systems to the important work being done by their descendants. A pointer to the web site is in my .sig, of course. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Jun 23 15:32:39 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:32:39 +0200 Subject: LINC-8 and PDP-8 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160623203238.GE7239@Update.UU.SE> Hmm, I'm thinking hard of what I should bring on saturday that might interrest you. This is right up my alley. You already have one of each of what I own :D /P On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 07:20:13PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > I have been going through our library of documentation and found some items > that are duplicates. > > There are a LINC-8 programming manual, PDP-8 DecTape programming manual, > PDP-8/L maintenance manual, PDP-8/e maintenance manual volume I and volume > III. > > http://i.imgur.com/YEAdnZV.jpg?1 > http://i.imgur.com/pvsypvY.jpg?1 > > Trade for something interesting! > > Other things that is also for trade: > > http://www.datormuseum.se/available > > /Mattis From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 22:28:39 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:28:39 -0500 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hey guys, I was looking and found that the Tektronix 4010 is a calligraphic display, for which I found a video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IztxeoHhoyM Let me know if it bares a resemblance to the display on the 6600 On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > - It had some wicked cool "demos", to cop a C64 term. (ADC, PAC, EYE) > > Those were mostly toys to amuse the CEs, like the baseball game BAT. > > I was trying to find some video of one of those actually running. I wanted > to see how the "calligraphic displays" painted the graphics. Do you happen > to know why they went with two displays like that? Did the two have > different purposes? > > > Chess 3.0 was implemented on Northwestern's machine and probably was the > > first computer chess program of note. This was before kids thought that > > computer games were *cool*. I never developed a taste for computer > > gaming. > > Most folks I know who were in their 20s or 30s in the 60s or 70s didn't, > either. However, computer games were the "hook" that got a lot of people > like me interested in computing as children. I instantly became more > interested in creating the games, not just playing them. I've known a lot > of others with the same sort of instincts. > > > Much of the architectural concept was shared with IBM 7030 STRETCH > > (another system worth researching). > > Hmm, I've never heard of it. I'll check it out. Thanks. > > > > - It wasn't DEC and it wasn't IBM and it was faster than both when it > hit > > > the street? > > With a 10 MHz clock. > > Impressive. > > > It had several *cool* OSes, but really only two major ones for general > > consumption (Special Systems Dvision had several more). SCOPE (later > > NOS/BE), pretty much initially a PP-resident OS based on the old > > Chippewa Operating System--and NOS (was KRONOS, originally MACE), > > I tried to find some info on SCOPE, but it's very sparse. Did it have an > interactive command line? What was your main "interface" to the OS? > > > started as a "bootleg" project by Greg Mansfield and (Dr.) Dave > > Callender at Arden Hills. (MACE stood for "(Greg) Mansfield's Answer to > > Customer Engineering". > > Lots of great and interesting operating systems start as a reaction to the > status quo or some idea they find abhorrent. UNIX and many variants > certainly have. Ie.. Ken & Dennis working on side-projects while bored and > demotivated by Multics, BSD guys reacting to AT&T clamping down, Linus > reacting to his profs, Theo forking NetBSD, I could go on and on... > > UNIX: Born in rebellion. > > > Most batch programs written for SCOPE would run fine on MACE with few, > > if any, modifications. > > Did Control Data sell both or was one from an alternative vendor? > > > In retrospect, CDC keeping two operating systems (SCOPE was part of CPD > > in Sunnyvale, while KRONOS stayed home in Arden Hillls) was probably a > > strategic blunder, since much duplicate effort was wasted. Eventually, > > the two were merged into NOS (for Network Operating System). > > I found this PDF: > > > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/nos/60435400J_NOS_Version_1_Reference_Volume_1_Aug79.pdf > > It's interesting to me because of how "different" everything is. I'm not > well versed in mainframe operating systems. It's interesting. > > > There aren't any alignment issues, since the CPU was only > > word-addressable. This was when a character was 6 bits (think IBM 709x, > > UNIVAC 1100, etc.) So a word with 10 characters was logical. > > I figured it was something like that, but I'm so used to 8-bit bytes and > such. It takes a minute to adjust my thinking to a different base, but > it's not that hard. > > > Given that PP words 12 bits (5 to a CM word) and there were 10 PPUs, > > each executing at a speed 1/10th the CPU, it had a very pleasant sort of > > symmetry. > > I suppose it doesn't matter as long as things factor out properly: no > worries. > > > COMPASS was indeed advanced for its time, but then so was OS/360 > > assembly language. Given that assembly was the lingua franca of system > > programming, assemblers had to be good. Most of the readability was due > > to attention to detail by the programmer, not any particular language > > feature. > > Well, the sample code I could find was particularly well put together by > someone who knew they were doing. I'm a pretty poor ASM programmer, since > the only one I ever put much effort into was for the M68k (which is really > easy compared to some). I've got a big crush on MIPS ASM but I never was > any good with it. C ruined me. :-) > > > > ... Is super-readable, in fact, probably a bit more than several > > > much-newer dialects on different platforms. There was one instruction > > > "PROTECT" I found pretty interesting, too. > > Where did you find that? I've never heard of such an instruction. > > I was mistaken, it's only a control statement for COMPASS. It's actually > in the PDF manual I was just looking at. It's used to "preserve a user's > ECS field length between job steps." > > -Swift > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jun 23 23:25:58 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:25:58 -0500 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <576CB656.3010101@pico-systems.com> On 06/23/2016 10:28 PM, James Vess wrote: > Hey guys, > > I was looking and found that the Tektronix 4010 is a calligraphic display, > for which I found a video! > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IztxeoHhoyM > > Let me know if it bares a resemblance to the display on the 6600 > > It wasn't normally used in that manner, except for graphing. It had a 5 x 7 dot matrix generator and would display essentially a similar way to a glass TTY terminal. But, if you had graphs, 3D drawings or fancy lettering, you could draw it stroke by stroke. That was a lot slower, of course. Jon From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jun 23 12:17:00 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:17:00 -0700 Subject: Other then being original is there any reason to get a RX02 ? Message-ID: Someday I want to have a PDP11 even if it is a QBUS version I can get a clean RX02 for about $150. When my life involved PDP11's starting with 34A and ending with 44's I never used one. -pete From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 00:27:24 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 01:27:24 -0400 Subject: Other then being original is there any reason to get a RX02 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Someday I want to have a PDP11 even if it is a QBUS version > > I can get a clean RX02 for about $150. When my life involved PDP11's > starting with 34A and ending with 44's I never used one. They are useful on low-end systems, like an RT-11 machine when you don't have some form of hard drive (RQDXn + RD5x or RL(V)11 + RL01 or RL02, etc...) If you have a PDP-11 with a hard drive, they can be handy for trading files with another machine with an RX02, but if you don't need 8" floppies, and you have another option, they aren't essential. As you have already experienced, there are plenty of machines that don't/didn't have them. At one point, they were an obvious choice for a small machine. Unless you are dead set on a 100% DEC box, I think there are plenty of options that don't involve floppies. One inexpensive one is TU58 emulation (via PC-based or microcontroller-based tape emulator + one spare serial port on your PDP-11, easy in the Qbus world because the DLV11J is cheap and plentiful) If you want a 100% authentic machine, there are lots of configurations that would include an RX02. Oh... and if you want to also dabble with the PDP-8, the same RX02 would be useful on an RX8E, and that was a very ordinary PDP-8 configuration (and much easier to put together than a hard-disk-based machine, because there are fewer options there). -ethan From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 03:05:02 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 01:05:02 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: And here is Ken's new post in the series http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html Marc > On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:59 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > > The restoration is physically happening at my place. As noted below we have > a small and quite knowledgeable group of people contributing, including > actual hardware when we are missing a part (thanks Al !). A few of us are > chronicling this on our favorite media from our favorite angle. > I like to make short videos trying to convey the inside story of the > restoration, on my YouTube channel: > https://www.youtube.com/curiousmarc > It's interspersed with all the other restorations, but two videos so far: > https://youtu.be/YupOC_6bfMI > https://youtu.be/xPyqQXFC2yw > Ed Thelen likes to collect every bit of raw information floating around, > including some of the team emails and throw them into equally raw site, as > he does for the IBM 1401 restoration effort at CHM: > http://ed-thelen.org/RestoreAlto/index.html > Carl Claunch methodically recounts everything he does every day (and he does > a lot), so when he works on the Alto, you'll know every detail: > http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/ > Ken Shirriff makes deeply researched, superlative detailed posts on his > blog. These are reference pieces, I admire them a lot: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > And it gets discussed on the Y-combinator (the owners of the machine) and > hopefully here too. > Seeing the interest, I will make an effort to post new links when they > become available, unless of course Master Al beats me to it. > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 8:54 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11929396 > http://ed-thelen.org/RestoreAlto/index.html > >> On 6/20/16 8:51 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I post just went up on Saturday. It's nice that both CHM and LCM folks >> are helping with this. >> >> >>> On 6/20/16 8:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html >>> >>> Found via: >>> >>> http://www.osnews.com/story/29261/Xerox_Alto_restoring_the_legendary_ >>> 1970s_GUI_computer >>> >>> There are 2 videos up so far, with disassemblies that may interest >>> CCmpers. >>> >>> Some people from the list are involved, including Al Kossow, but I >>> haven't seen the link posted. >>> >> > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 06:28:05 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:28:05 +0200 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 24 June 2016 at 10:05, wrote: > And here is Ken's new post in the series > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html I can't see any dates on the post, but I am not seeing a new one there... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ben at bensinclair.com Fri Jun 24 08:47:46 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:47:46 -0500 Subject: Other then being original is there any reason to get a RX02 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Someday I want to have a PDP11 even if it is a QBUS version > > I can get a clean RX02 for about $150. When my life involved PDP11's > starting with 34A and ending with 44's I never used one. > If you don't need it, I could certainly use a clean RX02 for $150! :) -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From ben at bensinclair.com Fri Jun 24 08:49:17 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:49:17 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 22, 2016, at 07:23, Todd Killingsworth < killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > I'm set up to go onsite this afternoon, and I've got new SD cards and two I assume Todd is lost in the warehouse, or just kept all of the new-in-box Lisp machines, SGIs, and System 360s for himself! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 09:23:30 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:23:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Tektronix terminals and terminals in general (Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome?) In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Jun 2016, James Vess wrote: > I was looking and found that the Tektronix 4010 is a calligraphic > display, for which I found a video! > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IztxeoHhoyM Let me know if it bares a > resemblance to the display on the 6600 I was just looking at those things, too! I've always liked Tektronix and these are wonderful. I found some picture of people doing what appeared to be CAD on them. There are descriptions of all kinds of creative things being done with them. About 15 years ago I did some work for a lumberyard company. They had the most consistent IT setup I've ever seen. They had very few actual computers anywhere. 95% of the company used terminals fed off serial MUXes tied over 56k or 128k leased lines back to their corporate headquarters. They used portable battery-powered hand scanners that plugged into the terminals' keyboard interface, IIRC. Those were for scanning their inventory. I noticed: * They had almost no IT staff, yet things ran pretty smooth. * They never had viruses. * Replacing "workstations" (terminals with more access to their business apps) took about 10 minutes. * They had some weird office automation package (word processor, time management, spreadsheet, etc..) I'd never seen before that reminded me a bit of that one office product from DEC for VMS (I can't remember the name, but I think it was written in DCL). I don't know enough about VMS. The bosses and admin assistants ran that and they absolutely loved it. It was very fast and the kind of thing were once you memorized the keystrokes you could just fly through it. * They had a coder who wrote some really cool blackberry-like features for the Palm Pilot. They could sync all kinds of business related stuff from their Unix boxes (mail, order information, inventory, etc). The bosses all had those. It's the only place I ever saw, besides the (extremely well funded and very nice) Don Harrington Library consortium that was able to really get some mileage from a hub-and-spoke, terminal based, WAN distributed, highly integrated, centralized system. From a sysadmin perspective, it seems like it makes a lot of sense. Just cluster a few robust systems and tie everything you can into them once you've got your confidence up! However, I think most folks these days would faint if they were forced to work on a terminal. 1. They couldn't play minesweeper when they got bored. 2. They couldn't refresh Twitter & Facebook every 5 seconds. 3. They couldn't run an IM client. 4. They'd have to actually read the screen. No icons. 5. How would they do their jobs as users and infect the thing with crapware and viruses? I often setup terminals on my desktop as "extra heads" to display logs or monitoring information, or sometimes use them for debug output for coding projects etc... When I'm working at a big corporation it absolutely freaks just about everyone out and their reactions are mostly quite annoying. It pains me to hear people use the words "text" like it's a curseword. Plus, they also just stand there stunned and say "but.... but.... that's OLD!" as if I were violating some local ordnance not to poop on my desk. I smile when I go to the auto parts store and they are still using terminals. Never say die! I think terminals were, and actually still *are* cool. Computers might be cheap now, but that doesn't mean that having centralized control with users on terminals isn't still useful in many instances/situations. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 09:25:23 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:25:23 -0600 (MDT) Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote: > killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm set up to go onsite this afternoon, and I've got new SD cards and two > I assume Todd is lost in the warehouse, or just kept all of the > new-in-box Lisp machines, SGIs, and System 360s for himself! He's probably still waiting for some of them to boot up. *ducks* :-P -Swift From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 24 09:35:16 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:35:16 -0700 Subject: Other then being original is there any reason to get a RX02 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39f312ca-5616-6439-fada-10907d8d9a17@bitsavers.org> On 6/23/16 10:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: your PDP-11, easy in the Qbus world because the > Oh... and if you want to also dabble with the PDP-8, the same RX02 > would be useful on an RX8E You'd be better off looking for a DSD, which also had PDP-8, Q/Unibus interfaces. They use Shugart drives, and can format disks. From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 09:39:58 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:39:58 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Heh. No, guys - I've not bought the whole building! I've got the 100+ pictures loaded up for editing, but I still have to resize them to jpg. No SGI, a few IBM big peripherals, some DEC VAX and Alpha boxes (no PDP anything), a Sun E3K, and $DEITY's own collection of terminals and keyboards. Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. I'll get pics up somewhere this weekend and share the link Todd Killingsworth On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I'm set up to go onsite this afternoon, and I've got new SD cards and > two > > > I assume Todd is lost in the warehouse, or just kept all of the > > new-in-box Lisp machines, SGIs, and System 360s for himself! > > He's probably still waiting for some of them to boot up. *ducks* :-P > > -Swift > From jason at smbfc.net Fri Jun 24 09:45:49 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:45:49 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <576D479D.7030207@smbfc.net> Can't wait to see! A real VT-100 would be a prized possession. Not sure how to get it to Seattle though. I see too many horror stories about shipping terminals. --Jason On 06/24/2016 07:39 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Heh. No, guys - I've not bought the whole building! > > I've got the 100+ pictures loaded up for editing, but I still have to > resize them to jpg. No SGI, a few IBM big peripherals, some DEC VAX and > Alpha boxes (no PDP anything), a Sun E3K, and $DEITY's own collection of > terminals and keyboards. > Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP > terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also > oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. > > I'll get pics up somewhere this weekend and share the link > > Todd Killingsworth > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Swift Griggs > wrote: > >> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I'm set up to go onsite this afternoon, and I've got new SD cards and >> two >> >>> I assume Todd is lost in the warehouse, or just kept all of the >>> new-in-box Lisp machines, SGIs, and System 360s for himself! >> He's probably still waiting for some of them to boot up. *ducks* :-P >> >> -Swift >> From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jun 24 09:50:28 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:50:28 -0600 Subject: Tektronix terminals and terminals in general (Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome?) In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2016-06-24 08:23, Swift Griggs wrote: > However, I think most folks these days would faint if they were forced to > work on a terminal. Just don't tell them, that they do ;-) If you really think about it, the terminals just got faster and got more colors. (and you call them smartphone, thin clinet, tablet, win PC, ...) Otherwise: a.) most data is somewhere in the cloud (before it was called mainframe) b.) a lot of applications are running in the cloud (before, mainframe) c.) you connect now via wireless internet (before: modem) d.) ... So, just Emperor's new clothes ;-) From ben at bensinclair.com Fri Jun 24 09:55:48 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:55:48 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Todd Killingsworth < killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > > Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP > terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also > oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. > That still sounds great! I'd also love a DEC terminal of some kind... I got rid of a VT-100 years ago and regret it. Some of the AT&T machines were interesting too! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 24 10:01:28 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:01:28 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:28 PM, James Vess wrote: > > Hey guys, > > I was looking and found that the Tektronix 4010 is a calligraphic display, > for which I found a video! > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IztxeoHhoyM > > Let me know if it bares a resemblance to the display on the 6600 None, unless you count the fact that both are green and both use electrons. The Tek 401x series displays are terminals (connected by a serial port). They use storage CRT technology to create a persistent image (no refresh). They do dot matrix ASCII text, line drawing, and have a crosshair cursor for input. They use ASCII based text communication, at 9600 baud (I think they go that high). The 4010 is rather a small tube, 24x80 characters; some other models are much larger and can do quite impressive graphics at fairly moderate cost by the standards of the time (mid 1970s). The CDC 6000 series console (Data Display Co. DD60) showed up about 10 years earlier. It's essentially a dual oscilloscope with X/Y input -- like typical oscilloscopes it uses electrostatic deflection. The display itself accepts 9 bit X and Y coordinates, plus analog X/Y offset signals that are used to produce the character outlines, a size selection signal (small/medium/large) and a left or right intensify signal. The X/Y deflection signals are applied to both tubes, but the intensify signal controls which of the two lights up. In theory you could light up both simultaneously; the CDC controllers would not do that. There's also a keyboard, with a 6 bit data signal plus key up/down signals. The 6612 or 6602 controller ("synchronizer" in 6000 terminology) connects a 6000 I/O channel to the DD60 (or, for some models, to a pair of DD60s). It interprets commands to produce the X/Y position signals, advances X after each character, and converts character data into the X/Y offset waveforms. The waveform generator is essentially a counter feeding a ROM which feeds a set of D/A converters. In the 170 series, it was done that way, but in the 6000 series display controller, the waveform generation uses a large complex collection of gates instead of a ROM. Why, I'm not sure. A possible answer is that a sufficiently fast ROM (100 ns lookup time) wasn't available in the early 1960s. The controller, when in keyboard input mode, would read the keyboard lines and deliver the data (or 0 meaning no key down) to the PPU. No rollover, which meant that typing fast required some practice. Since the DD60/6612 hardware had no refresh machinery at all, the driving software would do the refreshing. This made the display very dynamic. By contrast, a Tex 401x is a storage tube, which puts it at the other extreme: once you draw a character or line, it would stay without any further action. You can't erase it; the only erase available is a full screen erase. paul From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Jun 24 10:24:55 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:24:55 -0400 Subject: Tektronix terminals and terminals in general (Re: CDC 6600 - Why so aweso... Message-ID: <20d2e7.6e4c7100.449eaac7@aol.com> Heh! Especially if an upper case only terminal I can just imagine the cry arising from the little whiners! QUIT SHOUTING QUIT SHOUTING! (as they stamp their feet and rent their clothing....) In a message dated 6/24/2016 7:50:46 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, emu at e-bbes.com writes: On 2016-06-24 08:23, Swift Griggs wrote: > However, I think most folks these days would faint if they were forced to > work on a terminal. Just don't tell them, that they do ;-) If you really think about it, the terminals just got faster and got more colors. (and you call them smartphone, thin clinet, tablet, win PC, ...) Otherwise: a.) most data is somewhere in the cloud (before it was called mainframe) b.) a lot of applications are running in the cloud (before, mainframe) c.) you connect now via wireless internet (before: modem) d.) ... So, just Emperor's new clothes ;-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 10:35:34 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:35:34 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <576D479D.7030207@smbfc.net> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <576D479D.7030207@smbfc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jason Howe wrote: > Can't wait to see! A real VT-100 would be a prized possession. Not sure > how to get it to Seattle though. I see too many horror stories about > shipping terminals. It can be tough to ship CRTs (step 1, don't put them in a tiny box...) I don't get out to Seattle, but if you drive out to a VCFmw or VCFe some time, I've been known to bring dumb terminals to sell. I don't want to ship them either. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jun 24 10:41:18 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:41:18 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <576D479D.7030207@smbfc.net> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <576D479D.7030207@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <576D549E.5020000@pico-systems.com> On 06/24/2016 09:45 AM, Jason Howe wrote: > Can't wait to see! A real VT-100 would be a prized > possession. Not sure how to get it to Seattle though. I > see too many horror stories about shipping terminals. > I just shipped two 13" green screen monitors in their original shipping cartons to two guys on this list. These were new replacements we picked up at a surplus place 30 years ago and never used. I think they will come through fine, but will know in a couple of days. I shipped them FedEx ground, which has always done VERY well for me. Jon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 10:46:06 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:46:06 -0400 Subject: Other then being original is there any reason to get a RX02 ? In-Reply-To: <39f312ca-5616-6439-fada-10907d8d9a17@bitsavers.org> References: <39f312ca-5616-6439-fada-10907d8d9a17@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 6/23/16 10:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > your PDP-11, easy in the Qbus world because the > >> Oh... and if you want to also dabble with the PDP-8, the same RX02 >> would be useful on an RX8E > > You'd be better off looking for a DSD, which also had PDP-8, Q/Unibus > interfaces. They use Shugart drives, and can format disks. Yes. They are nice. I have one (Qbus interface). They are not as abundant, however. (but I was thinking mine had a pair of Tandon TM848s - maybe that's just my Dataram PDP-11 clone - that one could also format floppies via ROM on the 3rd-party controller) -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 10:59:04 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:59:04 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <576D479D.7030207@smbfc.net> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <576D479D.7030207@smbfc.net> Message-ID: > Can't wait to see! A real VT-100 would be a prized possession. Not sure > how to get it to Seattle though. I see too many horror stories about > shipping terminals. And terminals in the VT100 family are probably the most difficult to ship (closely followed by the VT50 family). -- Will From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 11:22:03 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:22:03 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Vector displays (was Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome?) In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > By contrast, a Tex 401x is a storage tube, which puts it at the other > extreme: once you draw a character or line, it would stay without any > further action. You can't erase it; the only erase available is a full > screen erase. That reminds me vaguely of RIP at the end of the BBS era. It probably could do a partial-refresh/erase, but if you watched it "paint" images, that's how it appeared. I was glad that the Internet-era came along, but it's sad RIP didn't come along earlier. I also remember some kind of BBS terminal emulator that I only saw over someone's shoulder. It was for the Amiga and appeared that it could transmit/receive sprite-based graphics over the modem connection. I just remember watching a friend of a friend connect to a BBS overseas and I they had some kind of welcome screen with a little sprite-based unicorn running across the screen. I dunno, maybe it was a rigged demo, but it showed me that "terminal emulation" could be all kinds of awesome stuff. -Swift From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 11:38:45 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:38:45 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <001f01d1ce36$e03b17e0$a0b147a0$@classiccmp.org> Todd wrote... ----- Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. ---- I'd very much love a pair of 3278's or 3279's. I think I have more than enough HP terminals to last me, I think the only terminals I'd still make room for are MicroTerm ACT/Mime, or a mint condition ADDS Consul or the right model of ADDS Regent. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 11:42:16 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:42:16 -0500 Subject: Vector displays (was Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome?) In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <002001d1ce37$5e7d2d00$1b778700$@classiccmp.org> Swift wrote... ---- but it showed me that "terminal emulation" could be all kinds of awesome stuff. ---- And then there's 3270 terminal protocol ;) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 11:42:25 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:42:25 -0500 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available Message-ID: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> Someone emailed me last night that has a full set (about 30+) of manuals in grey binders for VMS 5.0. Still waiting for them to respond with their location. This is not something I'd want... J From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 11:49:29 2016 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:49:29 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <576D479D.7030207@smbfc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:59 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > And terminals in the VT100 family are probably the most difficult to > ship (closely followed by the VT50 family). Most definitely. Having dealt with a *lot* of terminals, and had many of them shipped to me - I have had at least two VT100's broken in shipping. The problem is that there isn't much holding that upper housing on, and it gets pretty brittle with age. Even a well packed one has a good chance of being broken in transit. Other terminals that are difficult to ship include the Zenith Z19 - the picture tube tends to break the posts that hold it in - that plastic has gotten kind of brittle. The VT50 series, while big and bulky, is fairly sturdy and shippable, but the sheer size is a real problem. I don't even want to think about shipping a VT05. That thing is heavy, deep, and fragile. -Ian From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 11:54:27 2016 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:54:27 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP > terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also > oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. I'm looking for HP 264x terminals and parts - especially keyboards. Likewise, HP 262x terminals, parts and keyboards. In the realm of weird terminals, I've been looking for an Ann Arbor Ambassador for close to fifteen years now. Please let me know if you find one. -Ian From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 11:58:05 2016 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:58:05 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal Message-ID: It's been a long time since I've asked about this, so I figured it was worth another shot. I've been looking for an Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal for close to fifteen years, with no success. It's kind of an obscure model, but they did exist. I heard of one being available several years back, but, unfortunately, someone else got it before I could. So, does anyone have one of these? Has anyone seen one in recent memory? -Ian From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 12:00:21 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:00:21 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <002c01d1ce39$e526d480$af747d80$@classiccmp.org> Ian wrote... ----- I'm looking for HP 264x terminals and parts - especially keyboards. Likewise, HP 262x terminals, parts and keyboards. ----- What 264x parts do you need? I have three 264x terminals that were far gone enough that I am using them as parts donors for my other 264x's. Let me know what parts you are looking for... I'll take a IBM 360 model 91 in trade ;) J From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jun 24 12:01:21 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:01:21 -0700 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008701d1ce3a$09837450$1c8a5cf0$@net> > Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( > http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe > they have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so- > hated keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find > someone with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. Does anyone know if WASD key caps are compatible? http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/printed-keycap-singles.html Thanks! -Ali From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jun 24 12:01:23 2016 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Ian Primus wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Todd Killingsworth > wrote: > >> Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP >> terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also >> oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. > > I'm looking for HP 264x terminals and parts - especially keyboards. > Likewise, HP 262x terminals, parts and keyboards. Ditto. Also HP 2392 terminals and keyboards. HP 262x terminals don't ship well. The "ET" terminals must be packed carefully. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 12:01:52 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:01:52 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> > On Jun 24, 2016, at 07:39, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > > some DEC VAX and > Alpha boxes (no PDP anything), Oooh, I'm curious about what VAX boxes are in there. I didn't see any printers mentioned, but I'm specifically looking for a DEC LP32 series band printer, or perhaps another printer made for use with the DMF32 controller. http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter16.html -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 12:02:07 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:02:07 -0600 Subject: Vector displays (was Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome?) In-Reply-To: <002001d1ce37$5e7d2d00$1b778700$@classiccmp.org> References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> <002001d1ce37$5e7d2d00$1b778700$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > And then there's 3270 terminal protocol ;) And HTML, which is 3270 updated for the 1990s. From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 12:03:08 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:03:08 -0700 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available In-Reply-To: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2016, at 09:42, Jay West wrote: > > Someone emailed me last night that has a full set (about 30+) of manuals in > grey binders for VMS 5.0. > > > > Still waiting for them to respond with their location. This is not something > I'd want... Please say southern California... ;) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From stark at mit.edu Fri Jun 24 12:04:23 2016 From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:04:23 +0100 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: You guys must have much larger apartments (or houses I'm guessing) than me.... I would really like a vt220 largely because it seems like it wouldn't occupy much space. I'm guessing they withstand shipping better too. -- Greg From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 12:04:37 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:04:37 -0500 Subject: acoustic coupler/modem available Message-ID: <002d01d1ce3a$7d347570$779d6050$@classiccmp.org> Spotted this at a local surplus place today. it's an acoustic coupler/modem, white plastic case, manufacturer is "MI2" (with the 2 as a superscript, so I guess "MI Squared"). Never heard of them. No clue if it works, appears to be in fair condition, they have a price tag of $25 on it. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 12:11:57 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:11:57 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <003201d1ce3b$83780bd0$8a682370$@classiccmp.org> Mike wrote... ----- HP 262x terminals don't ship well. The "ET" terminals must be packed carefully. ---- That is very true. I could use one of those large black plastic pieces that hold the monitor open. Mine broke'ted. HP 264X terminals on the other hand, do ship well because they are most definitely built like a tank. That being said, I did have one shipped to me a few years back (posted pictures to the list) that a shipper managed to completely destroy. They put it in a box that was twice the size of the terminal in all directions, and put absolutely nothing else in the box besides filling about 1/2 the box with foam peanuts. One could not imagine a 264X could look like it was put in a blender, but this one literally poured out of the box. *sigh* J From lists at loomcom.com Fri Jun 24 12:18:45 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:18:45 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <6D325634-8812-4A97-A5C1-57668EAD7FE0@loomcom.com> > On Jun 24, 2016, at 7:39 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > > Heh. No, guys - I've not bought the whole building! > > I've got the 100+ pictures loaded up for editing, but I still have to > resize them to jpg. No SGI, a few IBM big peripherals, some DEC VAX and > Alpha boxes (no PDP anything), a Sun E3K, and $DEITY's own collection of > terminals and keyboards. > Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP > terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also > oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. I call dibs on any and all AT&T terminals and 3B2 stuff! :^) -Seth From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 12:23:53 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:23:53 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <6D325634-8812-4A97-A5C1-57668EAD7FE0@loomcom.com> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <6D325634-8812-4A97-A5C1-57668EAD7FE0@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Seth - I specifically asked about 3B2 boxes when I saw the AT&T terminals. Unfortunately, the guy has already cleared them out of his warehouse. Todd Killingsworth On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > On Jun 24, 2016, at 7:39 AM, Todd Killingsworth < > killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Heh. No, guys - I've not bought the whole building! > > > > I've got the 100+ pictures loaded up for editing, but I still have to > > resize them to jpg. No SGI, a few IBM big peripherals, some DEC VAX > and > > Alpha boxes (no PDP anything), a Sun E3K, and $DEITY's own collection of > > terminals and keyboards. > > Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP > > terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also > > oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. > > > I call dibs on any and all AT&T terminals and 3B2 stuff! :^) > > -Seth > > From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 12:24:46 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:24:46 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <6D325634-8812-4A97-A5C1-57668EAD7FE0@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Seth, cont. ... and be careful what you wish for. I think that he may have a full 6'x6'x6' pallet of AT&T terminals for you :) TK On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:23 PM, Todd Killingsworth < killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > Seth - I specifically asked about 3B2 boxes when I saw the AT&T > terminals. Unfortunately, the guy has already cleared them out of his > warehouse. > > Todd Killingsworth > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> > On Jun 24, 2016, at 7:39 AM, Todd Killingsworth < >> killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Heh. No, guys - I've not bought the whole building! >> > >> > I've got the 100+ pictures loaded up for editing, but I still have to >> > resize them to jpg. No SGI, a few IBM big peripherals, some DEC VAX >> and >> > Alpha boxes (no PDP anything), a Sun E3K, and $DEITY's own collection >> of >> > terminals and keyboards. >> > Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP >> > terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also >> > oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. >> >> >> I call dibs on any and all AT&T terminals and 3B2 stuff! :^) >> >> -Seth >> >> > From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 12:25:12 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:25:12 +0200 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: <008701d1ce3a$09837450$1c8a5cf0$@net> References: <008701d1ce3a$09837450$1c8a5cf0$@net> Message-ID: <7589733D-60DF-4BEA-94D5-C15947A95FD1@gmail.com> > On 24 Jun 2016, at 19:01 , Ali wrote: > >> Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( >> http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe >> they have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so- >> hated keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find >> someone with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. > > Does anyone know if WASD key caps are compatible? > > http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/printed-keycap-singles.html No, those are for Cherry MX keyswitches (and a number of chinese clones). Not compatible with the Model M at all. I think I have a full set of keycaps for a Model M keyboard (ISO layout, Norwegian character set) somewhere. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 12:30:48 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:30:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <003201d1ce3b$83780bd0$8a682370$@classiccmp.org> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <003201d1ce3b$83780bd0$8a682370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Jay West wrote: > [...] besides filling about 1/2 the box with foam peanuts. One could not > imagine a 264X could look like it was put in a blender, but this one > literally poured out of the box. *sigh* It's amazing how much stuff UPS had managed to destroy "for" me, also. It's like them drop the boxes off a crane or something. I wish one of these shippers would develop a glass-coke-bottle style business model. You ask for a secure container and they can either be delivered for $$$ or you can pick them up. The containers should be made from real materials (wood or something strong with nice foam suspension or padding with FRAGILE printed all over them). When a buyer decides they want this service, they pay a small deposit fee which is refunded when they put the empty container out by the street for the shipper to pick up the next day. Then they refund your deposit. I'd definitely pay extra for that for many delicate items. Maybe someone already does that sort of thing but it's just not the kind of thing I've ever heard of from OOOPS, Federal Compress, or USPS. Sure you can pay extra to insure your items, but what if they were super hard to get? -Swift From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 12:34:42 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:34:42 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <003201d1ce3b$83780bd0$8a682370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4B660867-8120-4849-91C3-97FF2C97A092@nf6x.net> > On Jun 24, 2016, at 10:30, Swift Griggs wrote: > I wish one of these shippers would develop a glass-coke-bottle style > business model. You ask for a secure container and they can either be > delivered for $$$ or you can pick them up. The containers should be made > from real materials (wood or something strong with nice foam suspension or > padding with FRAGILE printed all over them). A crate will protect better against being squished by other cargo, but it's still up to the shipper to know how to secure the item inside well enough to withstand shock. A fully assembled heavy thing inside a fragile plastic case may not make it intact no matter how good the padding is. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 24 12:47:46 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <003201d1ce3b$83780bd0$8a682370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > It's amazing how much stuff UPS had managed to destroy "for" me, also. > It's like them drop the boxes off a crane or something. There is talk about "drone parcel delivery". Do UPS and USPS drop their packages from drones or planes? Or are they doing their deliveries by trebuchet? (catapult) From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jun 24 12:49:24 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:49:24 -0700 Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: <7589733D-60DF-4BEA-94D5-C15947A95FD1@gmail.com> References: <008701d1ce3a$09837450$1c8a5cf0$@net> <7589733D-60DF-4BEA-94D5-C15947A95FD1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008c01d1ce40$bf300880$3d901980$@net> > > Does anyone know if WASD key caps are compatible? > > > > http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/printed-keycap- > singles > > .html > > No, those are for Cherry MX keyswitches (and a number of chinese > clones). Not compatible with the Model M at all. > > I think I have a full set of keycaps for a Model M keyboard (ISO > layout, Norwegian character set) somewhere. Thanks. Good to know. I am actually looking for more modern key caps (e.g. window key). -Ali From turing at shaw.ca Fri Jun 24 12:49:31 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <360549280.13794547.1466790571143.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> I always thought that they 'preconditioned' the packages by running them over with a forklift before shipping, so that they could be packed more closely together. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 10:47:46 AM Subject: RE: old friend is slimming down the warehouse On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > It's amazing how much stuff UPS had managed to destroy "for" me, also. > It's like them drop the boxes off a crane or something. There is talk about "drone parcel delivery". Do UPS and USPS drop their packages from drones or planes? Or are they doing their deliveries by trebuchet? (catapult) From connork at connorsdomain.com Fri Jun 24 12:57:14 2016 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:57:14 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse Message-ID: On Jun 24, 2016 1:11 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Mike wrote... > ----- > ??? HP 262x terminals don't ship well.? The "ET" terminals must be packed > carefully. > ---- > That is very true. I could use one of those large black plastic pieces that > hold the monitor open. Mine broke'ted. > If you have the broken pieces and or a complete one I could possibly model it and 3D print it depending on size... We have the technology ;) -Connor K From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 24 12:59:27 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M Key Cap Replacement In-Reply-To: <008701d1ce3a$09837450$1c8a5cf0$@net> References: <008701d1ce3a$09837450$1c8a5cf0$@net> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Ali wrote: >> Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( >> http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe >> they have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so- >> hated keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find >> someone with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. > > Does anyone know if WASD key caps are compatible? > > http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/printed-keycap-singles.html > As far as I know, those are designed for Cherry MX key switches, they're not the shells that the Model M needs. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 24 13:53:43 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:53:43 -0600 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <003201d1ce3b$83780bd0$8a682370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 6/24/2016 11:47 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >> It's amazing how much stuff UPS had managed to destroy "for" me, also. >> It's like them drop the boxes off a crane or something. > > There is talk about "drone parcel delivery". > > Do UPS and USPS drop their packages from drones or planes? > Or are they doing their deliveries by trebuchet? (catapult) Just the OVERSEAS ones! From other at oryx.us Fri Jun 24 13:53:37 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:53:37 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <6D325634-8812-4A97-A5C1-57668EAD7FE0@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <576D81B1.2060904@oryx.us> Any more details on those AT&T terminals? I could use an AT&T 605 terminal for the 3b2 I hope to someday acquire, obviously after Seth gets all he needs. :) Jerry On 06/24/16 12:24 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Seth, cont. ... and be careful what you wish for. I think that he may > have a full 6'x6'x6' pallet of AT&T terminals for you :) > > TK > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:23 PM, Todd Killingsworth < > killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Seth - I specifically asked about 3B2 boxes when I saw the AT&T >> terminals. Unfortunately, the guy has already cleared them out of his >> warehouse. >> >> Todd Killingsworth >> >> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> >>> I call dibs on any and all AT&T terminals and 3B2 stuff! :^) >>> >>> -Seth >>> >>> >> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:17:10 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:17:10 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I didn't see any printers mentioned, but I'm specifically looking for a DEC LP32 series band printer, or perhaps another printer made for use with the DMF32 controller. > > http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter16.html We had an LP25 on our DMF32. ISTR it's a Dataproducts B300 or something close to that. It was a bit fiddly when it got old (I was the one that got to fix it when it broke), but we ran multiple boxes of paper through it per day. It was _the_ printer on a VAX-11/750 with 75 to 10 users (decreasing over time)... developers code listings, non-letter-quality documentation (serial LA210 for the "good stuff", used sparingly), diagnostic sheets in every product box, e-mails, calendars, customer lists... ASCII art. ;-) I think there's a simple circuit (a few TTL inverters and a pin swabbing cable) to use an LA-180 (i.e., _non_ Dataproducts printer) on the DC37 on a DMF-32. The basic lines are all the same but a couple of them need their sense inverted. An LA-180 is much lighter (van-sized and small pallet) as long as you don't need massive volumes. One could also rig up a Personal Computer-grade dot matrix printer with a Centronics interface similarly, if the goal is just to have some form of hardcopy, not specifically to "enjoy" the band/chain-printer experience. It is fun, though, watching and listening to a band printer fire up and zip through greenbar paper. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 14:24:56 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 14:24:56 -0500 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> Mark wrote... ----- Please say southern California... ;) ----- No, but at least the general region.... The lady got back with me just now and provided the following additional info (including location). Please contact me off-list if interested/willing to get 'em! =============== VMS Programming Vols 1-9 VMS General User 1-6b Systems Management Vols 1-5b (8 total) Denver, CO From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:26:00 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:26:00 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Ethan - There are pallets of printers as well, although I don't remember any of the brands besides Okidata. TK On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > I didn't see any printers mentioned, but I'm specifically looking for a > DEC LP32 series band printer, or perhaps another printer made for use with > the DMF32 controller. > > > > http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter16.html > > We had an LP25 on our DMF32. ISTR it's a Dataproducts B300 or > something close to that. It was a bit fiddly when it got old (I was > the one that got to fix it when it broke), but we ran multiple boxes > of paper through it per day. It was _the_ printer on a VAX-11/750 > with 75 to 10 users (decreasing over time)... developers code > listings, non-letter-quality documentation (serial LA210 for the "good > stuff", used sparingly), diagnostic sheets in every product box, > e-mails, calendars, customer lists... ASCII art. ;-) > > I think there's a simple circuit (a few TTL inverters and a pin > swabbing cable) to use an LA-180 (i.e., _non_ Dataproducts printer) on > the DC37 on a DMF-32. The basic lines are all the same but a couple > of them need their sense inverted. An LA-180 is much lighter > (van-sized and small pallet) as long as you don't need massive > volumes. One could also rig up a Personal Computer-grade dot matrix > printer with a Centronics interface similarly, if the goal is just to > have some form of hardcopy, not specifically to "enjoy" the > band/chain-printer experience. It is fun, though, watching and > listening to a band printer fire up and zip through greenbar paper. > > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:31:42 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:31:42 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Ethan - There are pallets of printers as well, although I don't remember > any of the brands besides Okidata. I don't need printers (I have *lots*, but the old LP25 did not make the cut when I was clearing out my office in 1993...), but I was making the suggestion to Mark that there are many options he could explore if he's willing to make a converter box and not just run a DC37 cable from a line printer to his interface. Sure, the right printer is just a passive cable away from working, but line printers can be expensive to ship and hard to maintain and it's not the only solution. -ethan From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 15:01:20 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:01:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/45 restoration running console emulator Message-ID: <576D9190.5040608@fritzm.org> Just wanted to share some joy here: after a months-long spare time restoration and debug process, the PDP-11/45 I've been working on booted to the M9301 console emulator last night (pic at http://fritzm.github.io/images/pdp11/m9301-running.jpg). Made me super happy to see that register dump an the "$" prompt :-) Next up will be using PDP11GUI to run more thorough diagnostics, then I'll be moving on to storage (RK05)... cheers, --FritzM. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 15:06:44 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:06:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/45 restoration running console emulator In-Reply-To: <576D9190.5040608@fritzm.org> References: <576D9190.5040608@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Just wanted to share some joy here: after a months-long spare time > restoration and debug process, the PDP-11/45 I've been working on booted to > the M9301 console emulator last night (pic at > http://fritzm.github.io/images/pdp11/m9301-running.jpg). > > Made me super happy to see that register dump an the "$" prompt :-) > > Next up will be using PDP11GUI to run more thorough diagnostics, then I'll > be moving on to storage (RK05)... > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > Fritz, I have been wrestling with PDP11GUI and my 11/40....I have not had trouble with the program, but I am weak on interpreting results of the tests. I have finally made progress, but I would be interested if you posted results of your testing using the M9301 and the PDPGUI. I have not yet been able to boot my system with an RL02. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 15:08:15 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:08:15 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/45 restoration running console emulator In-Reply-To: References: <576D9190.5040608@fritzm.org> Message-ID: BTW - What kind of guitar is that? (in your profile photo). Looks like a Fender From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 15:17:22 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 22:17:22 +0200 Subject: Force SPARC/CPU-5V-64-110-2 available. Message-ID: I have two Force VME boards with microSPARC CPU which I have no use for. SPARC/CPU-5V-64-110-2. 110 MHz. 64 Mbyte. https://imgur.com/a/4GWqB Trade for something interesting. /Mattis From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 15:17:55 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:17:55 -0700 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available In-Reply-To: <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2016, at 12:24, Jay West wrote: > > > VMS Programming Vols 1-9 > VMS General User 1-6b > Systems Management Vols 1-5b (8 total) > > Denver, CO > Farther than I want to drive. I hope they find a good home! From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 15:30:18 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:30:18 -0700 Subject: (off topic) Re: PDP-11/45 restoration running console emulator In-Reply-To: References: <576D9190.5040608@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <576D985A.3000302@fritzm.org> On 06/24/2016 01:08 PM, william degnan wrote: > BTW - What kind of guitar is that? (in your profile photo). Looks like a > Fender It was an 80's Japanese Fender p-bass, sadly no longer with me -- was stolen from my car some time back :-( --FritzM. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 15:32:37 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:32:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45 restoration running console emulator In-Reply-To: <576D9190.5040608@fritzm.org> References: <576D9190.5040608@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <005101d1ce57$8c290470$a47b0d50$@classiccmp.org> Fritz wrote... ----- Made me super happy to see that register dump an the "$" prompt :-) Next up will be using PDP11GUI to run more thorough diagnostics, then I'll be moving on to storage (RK05)... ----- I'm familiar with that specific feeling ;) Congrats, wonderful machine! I went with an RL02/RX02/CSIlinctape for mine. I saved the RK05 to go with the 8e :) J From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 15:35:41 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:35:41 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/45 restoration running console emulator In-Reply-To: References: <576D9190.5040608@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <576D999D.9060909@fritzm.org> On 06/24/2016 01:06 PM, william degnan wrote: > ...I would be interested if you posted results of your testing using > the M9301 and the PDPGUI... Sure! I've also been blogging the project at http://fritzm.github.io/category/pdp-11, and will continue to post notes there as I go. --FritzM. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 15:38:36 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:38:36 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I believe there is a list member in Florida with a band printer he might part with, On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Todd Killingsworth > wrote: > > Ethan - There are pallets of printers as well, although I don't remember > > any of the brands besides Okidata. > > I don't need printers (I have *lots*, but the old LP25 did not make > the cut when I was clearing out my office in 1993...), but I was > making the suggestion to Mark that there are many options he could > explore if he's willing to make a converter box and not just run a > DC37 cable from a line printer to his interface. Sure, the right > printer is just a passive cable away from working, but line printers > can be expensive to ship and hard to maintain and it's not the only > solution. > > -ethan > From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 15:45:51 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:45:51 -0700 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand Message-ID: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> I have a nice VT52, but it sits on the floor right now... I would dearly love to track down one of the old roll-around pedestals for it (as pictured here: http://cdn4.static.ovimg.com/m/04jldl). Didn't happen to see one in the warehouse by any chance, did you Todd? :-) cheers, --FritzM. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 09:15:31 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 10:15:31 -0400 Subject: Current source for RX50 media? Message-ID: Hi, All, A friend of mine who is mostly into Sun equipment recently purchased a MicroPDP-11 from a State auction. He knows little about DEC gear, but I can help him there. His machine had the RD5X drives pulled by the State, but still has an RX50. Where can I point him to get a handful of RX50 floppies? I can help him with contents to put on them, but he needs media. He's likely to start with RT-11. He could probably use 10-20 floppies to start. Thanks, -ethan From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jun 24 10:22:15 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:22:15 -0700 Subject: Tektronix terminals and terminals in general (Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome?) In-Reply-To: References: <5769C924.20701@sydex.com> Message-ID: Not Tek but I've seen directly two instances where simple terminal UI's where very much missed by the end users. The one I remember the most was a nationwide auto parts company who I wont mention who. The stores used 80x25 ASCII terminals with forms and fields and just about every function key did something. Once the UI was learned watching a counter person was quite amazing, someone with an account would walk in ask for a price on something and if say ok you would in less time it would take for one to move a mouse and click a button on a modern UI, a dot matrix printer had printed out the three part NCR paper invoice. Other then going to get the part and rip the 'holes' off the invoice paper the guys hands never left the keyboard. After conversion that simple terminal became a PC with a mouse, a fancy gui front end, blue screens of death, virus scanners, and software contract for the O/S, the fancy gui client, etc. etc. Not to mention pissed off customer because it went from a few seconds hit half a dozen of F keys, hit the tab key a few times to a good dozen mouse moves, clicks, open windows, wait for a megabyte or two of data to go back and forth, reboot the PC in the back room because the Printer Spool crashed, and ...... On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 7:50 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-06-24 08:23, Swift Griggs wrote: >> >> However, I think most folks these days would faint if they were forced to >> work on a terminal. > > > Just don't tell them, that they do ;-) > > If you really think about it, the terminals just got faster and > got more colors. (and you call them smartphone, thin clinet, tablet, win PC, > ...) > Otherwise: > a.) most data is somewhere in the cloud (before it was called mainframe) > b.) a lot of applications are running in the cloud (before, mainframe) > c.) you connect now via wireless internet (before: modem) > d.) ... > > So, just Emperor's new clothes ;-) > > From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jun 24 11:50:34 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:50:34 -0700 Subject: Other then being original is there any reason to get a RX02 ? In-Reply-To: References: <39f312ca-5616-6439-fada-10907d8d9a17@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Well you all convince me, I'm $125.00 poorer :-) But now I'm going to have to start looking for hardware to build a RSX-11M "rack". A the good old days of full semi truck loads of custom color 11/40, then 11/34A, then 11/44's showing up on the loading dock along with pallets loaded with RK05, then RL02's. On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> On 6/23/16 10:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> your PDP-11, easy in the Qbus world because the >> >>> Oh... and if you want to also dabble with the PDP-8, the same RX02 >>> would be useful on an RX8E >> >> You'd be better off looking for a DSD, which also had PDP-8, Q/Unibus >> interfaces. They use Shugart drives, and can format disks. > > Yes. They are nice. I have one (Qbus interface). They are not as > abundant, however. > > (but I was thinking mine had a pair of Tandon TM848s - maybe that's > just my Dataram PDP-11 clone - that one could also format floppies via > ROM on the 3rd-party controller) > > -ethan > From earl at baugh.org Fri Jun 24 12:43:16 2016 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:43:16 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? Message-ID: This thread reminded me that I recently got shipped what the person told me was a CDC 6000 Central Memory core. (it matches what's on this page : http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/en/6400hwac.html ). He told me that the console looked like this : http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/craytalk/sld031.htm I got it along with a box other parts (mostly Sun things) and a single "plane" of core memory from another module. (It connects the 6000 to the Sun 1's that I picked up in the past... some interesting history...good "over a beer" stories :-) ) I'm coming to VCF MW this year so if there is interest, I can bring it along... Earl From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 13:01:43 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:01:43 +0200 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Op 24 jun. 2016 4:40 p.m. schreef "Todd Killingsworth" < killingsworth.todd at gmail.com>: > > Heh. No, guys - I've not bought the whole building! > > I've got the 100+ pictures loaded up for editing, but I still have to > resize them to jpg. No SGI, a few IBM big peripherals, some DEC VAX and > Alpha boxes (no PDP anything), a Sun E3K, and $DEITY's own collection of > terminals and keyboards. > Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP > terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also > oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. > > I'll get pics up somewhere this weekend and share the link > > Todd Killingsworth If there's anything like an IBM 1052, let me know! Camiel From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 24 15:54:33 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:54:33 -0500 Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Ethan; 1) I replaced a few RD52's with RD53's. I probably have some RD52's laying around if he wants to go that route. 2) It's been too long so I don't remember, but don't you use normal pc floppies (5.25) and PUTR can format them? 3) Starting with RT11 is great. Adding TSX+ on top of that is Muy Bueno :) http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 9:16 AM To: classiccmp Subject: Current source for RX50 media? Hi, All, A friend of mine who is mostly into Sun equipment recently purchased a MicroPDP-11 from a State auction. He knows little about DEC gear, but I can help him there. His machine had the RD5X drives pulled by the State, but still has an RX50. Where can I point him to get a handful of RX50 floppies? I can help him with contents to put on them, but he needs media. He's likely to start with RT-11. He could probably use 10-20 floppies to start. Thanks, -ethan From cramcram at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 16:01:04 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 14:01:04 -0700 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> Message-ID: I'll take one if there's more than one. Marc On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > I have a nice VT52, but it sits on the floor right now... I would dearly > love to track down one of the old roll-around pedestals for it (as pictured > here: http://cdn4.static.ovimg.com/m/04jldl). > > Didn't happen to see one in the warehouse by any chance, did you Todd? :-) > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 17:00:25 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:00:25 -0400 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Marc Howard wrote: > I'll take one if there's more than one. > > Marc > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > >> I have a nice VT52, but it sits on the floor right now... I would dearly >> love to track down one of the old roll-around pedestals for it (as pictured >> here: http://cdn4.static.ovimg.com/m/04jldl). >> >> Didn't happen to see one in the warehouse by any chance, did you Todd? :-) I'd be up for one of those too! Right now, my best VT52 stand is a Datasystems Desk - it's great, but it's hard to get through doorways. -ethan From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jun 24 17:00:57 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:00:57 -0700 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available In-Reply-To: <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have a cousin in Colorado that will do anything for a buck. Email me if you are interested. BTW, he's a licensed Bond agent and travels to pick up humans all over the country (florida, washington, DC, etc.), so he will pile a bunch of manuals in a rental van and drive them to you, probably for the same amount as if it were a human. Not cheap, but would get you your paper. (suv rental + his time, gas, food, probably ~$450) thanks Jim On 6/24/2016 12:24 PM, Jay West wrote: > Mark wrote... > ----- > Please say southern California... ;) > ----- > No, but at least the general region.... > > The lady got back with me just now and provided the following additional > info (including location). Please contact me off-list if interested/willing > to get 'em! > > =============== > VMS Programming Vols 1-9 > VMS General User 1-6b > Systems Management Vols 1-5b (8 total) > > Denver, CO > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 17:09:00 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:09:00 -0400 Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ethan; > > 1) I replaced a few RD52's with RD53's. I probably have some RD52's laying around if he wants to go that route. 10MB is better than 0MB. I'll mention it to him. In the meantime, I've told him to look for ST-225 (RD31) and ST-251-1 (RD32). I have a MicroVAX 2000, so formatting for RQDX3 is no problem. > 2) It's been too long so I don't remember, but don't you use normal pc floppies (5.25) and PUTR can format them? Yes, but you need the right type of PC floppy because RX50 are single-sided and 80 tpi and 10 sectors-per-track (400K on one side). I'm sure there are FAQs and instructions all over about the process... I just don't recall off the top of my head which keywords to shop for that are merely good enough for TRS-80s and C-64s and which will do for RX50s. Single Sided Single Density will not cut it, not that uber cheap floppies abound these days (Elephant? BASF? Only if you like cleaning your heads between each diskette). > 3) Starting with RT11 is great. Adding TSX+ on top of that is Muy Bueno :) http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org Back in the day, I mostly used raw RT-11, but I did dabble on a project or two with TSX+. Once I have some time to clean up a couple of boxes, I do plan to dig out the TSX+ stuff and play with it. Thanks, -ethan From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 17:27:56 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:27:56 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <29FAEFD1-D6D3-4A7C-9D51-C156525F3A49@nf6x.net> > On Jun 24, 2016, at 12:17 , Ethan Dicks wrote: > We had an LP25 on our DMF32. ISTR it's a Dataproducts B300 or > something close to that. That sounds right. I googled for Dataproducts B300 pictures, and they look awfully similar to the manual pictures I've seen of the LP32. Also, that web page I linked to lists the LP32 as an LP26 variant. > I think there's a simple circuit (a few TTL inverters and a pin > swabbing cable) to use an LA-180 (i.e., _non_ Dataproducts printer) on > the DC37 on a DMF-32. I think an LA180 wouldn't be much different than the Decwriter III I'm already using as a console, so I don't see much point in adding one. > to "enjoy" the > band/chain-printer experience. It is fun, though, watching and > listening to a band printer fire up and zip through greenbar paper. Yes, that enjoyment is what I'm going for. And also, that plug on the back of my 11/730 is marked "LP32", so I need to fill the hole with the right thing if I'm to be able to sleep at night. :) Now, I'd also love a great big drum printer, with a suitable computer hooked up to it. In my freshman year of college, I recall being shown a large PDP-8 system with a massive drum printer and a hard drive the size of two washer/dryer units, sitting right next to the Hypercube in the same small room. It was suggested that the system was very long in the tooth and might just be available, and I wish I could go back in time to pursue getting it... -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 17:29:08 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:29:08 -0700 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2016, at 14:01 , Marc Howard wrote: > > I'll take one if there's more than one. Was there a similar stand matched to the VT100 series, or shall I continue setting my VT131 on top of the PDP-8/M like a commoner? :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 17:31:59 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:31:59 -0700 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2016, at 15:00 , jwsmobile wrote: > > I have a cousin in Colorado that will do anything for a buck. Email me if you are interested. > > BTW, he's a licensed Bond agent and travels to pick up humans all over the country (florida, washington, DC, etc.), so he will pile a bunch of manuals in a rental van and drive them to you, probably for the same amount as if it were a human. Not cheap, but would get you your paper. (suv rental + his time, gas, food, probably ~$450) This is the most hilarious offer I've heard in a long time. I'll probably not take it, but I'll darn well think about it! I wonder whether he'd consider moving a Grey Wall to be a lower or higher risk job compared to moving the usual fugitives? :D -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 17:38:05 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 15:38:05 -0700 Subject: KM11 uPB question Message-ID: <576DB64D.8060403@fritzm.org> Hey folks, While working on my 11/45, I built up a KM11 replica based on Tom Uban's ExpressPCB layout. I noticed the following behavior when trying to use it in uPB mode on my KB11-A CPU: * If I set up uPB, set KM11 S1 on and S2 off, and resume execution, the breakpoint fails to stop the processor * BUT, if I depress and *hold* CONT, while it is held down the CPU will be held in T2 on the target microword * If I then reach over and flip on S2 before releasing CONT I can hold the machine there in T2 Documentation on the KM11 seems to imply that the machine should just stop at the target state holding in T2 without having to do the holding-down-CONT-while-flipping-on-S2 thing. I was wondering if this was an oddity of my KM11, my CPU, or is that just the way uPB mode works on these things? thanks, --FritzM. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 17:59:58 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 17:59:58 -0500 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Was there a similar stand matched to the VT100 series, or shall I continue setting my VT131 on top of the PDP-8/M like a commoner? :) I have one of these, or similar stands. I'm not certain but I think it may have been designed to fit both VT5x and VT10x terms. It's currently in storage and in need of restoration, otherwise I'd get measurements for everyone. I can do it on the next storage trip, if people are interested. j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 18:05:07 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:05:07 -0400 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Jason T wrote: > I have one of these, or similar stands. I'm not certain but I think > it may have been designed to fit both VT5x and VT10x terms. It's > currently in storage and in need of restoration, otherwise I'd get > measurements for everyone. I can do it on the next storage trip, if > people are interested. Sure... I'd love to know the dimensions of a "real one". -ethan From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 18:06:20 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:06:20 -0700 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> Yes, please, thanks! If we can't track down any real ones, maybe we could bang out some plans something nice/convenient. (I know, I know, its silly, its just a pedestal stand with five casters...) --FritzM. On 06/24/2016 03:59 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> Was there a similar stand matched to the VT100 series, or shall I continue setting my VT131 on top of the PDP-8/M like a commoner? :) > I have one of these, or similar stands. I'm not certain but I think > it may have been designed to fit both VT5x and VT10x terms. It's > currently in storage and in need of restoration, otherwise I'd get > measurements for everyone. I can do it on the next storage trip, if > people are interested. > > j From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Jun 24 18:33:33 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:33:33 -0400 Subject: Teletype on ebay Message-ID: <931f4894-7468-0e3a-d2c8-9c623f98e0dd@comcast.net> There is a Teletype printer on ebay, the seller is in Virginia. Ebay item 231990393069 The auction title is: 1966 - Vintage Antique TELETYPE INKTRONIC Receive Only Set TelePrinter Parallel From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 18:36:29 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:36:29 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 Message-ID: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> Hi All, In bringing up and debugging my PDP 11/45, I found that one of my GRA (M8101) spares has a failed ALU subsidiary ROM. It's a pretty standard little 32x8 ROM in a 16-pin DIP, and the truth table is in the 11/45 print set. I wonder what the replacement options are for parts like these? In particular, given the 30ns micro-cycle on the KB11-A, and the fact that the propagation time for the ALU downstream of this is roughly 20ns on its own, I'd be worried that an off-the-shelf bipolar PROM might be too slow here. I'm still a little slow on reading the microcode flows, so its not clear to me exactly how many micro-cycles there are on the critical path for the E-class instructions where this ROM is used. Maybe its not an issue. Anybody every try replacing one of these with a bipolar PROM? Any other suggestions for how to repair parts like these? cheers, --FritzM. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 24 18:42:36 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 17:42:36 -0600 Subject: Teletype on ebay In-Reply-To: <931f4894-7468-0e3a-d2c8-9c623f98e0dd@comcast.net> References: <931f4894-7468-0e3a-d2c8-9c623f98e0dd@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1df2a2d0-2827-42cd-a809-ab886e0cc543@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/24/2016 5:33 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > There is a Teletype printer on ebay, the seller is in Virginia. Ebay > item 231990393069 > > The auction title is: > > 1966 - Vintage Antique TELETYPE INKTRONIC Receive Only Set TelePrinter > Parallel Glad to see the email is NOT all caps. :) Ben. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jun 24 18:44:27 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:44:27 -0700 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available (Retrieving things from another zip code, several removed) In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: It is just that he is independently employeed, and makes these trips maybe every one or two months to recover someone, frequently for another agent in one of the 5 or so counties he covers. It is hard to find people that can just drop things and go, but in his business, others out of his office can cover his reportees, and if someone skips the process of going out to knock is done by someone he works with if he is away. So he is a unique resource in that regard, and because he is a bonded person for his work, I feel that is a plus so you can rely on something showing up, rather than a pig in a poke (and just have Jim's word that his cousin is a good dude). Anyway, if someone wants that, or for that matter in the future if something shows up, he and his friends could round up and drive a load for you at cost+ basis. My current Kansas City friend who is reliable is currently swamped with A/C business, which as you might guess has his feet glued to the KC area. So if something in that area was needed, wait till the weather cools off and he might be available. might be useful to have a thread with people who know relatives, friends or the like to do rescues to look back at when you see the odd large load that you'd like but in the wrong zip code. thanks Jim On 6/24/2016 3:31 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Jun 24, 2016, at 15:00 , jwsmobile wrote: >> >> I have a cousin in Colorado that will do anything for a buck. Email me if you are interested. >> >> BTW, he's a licensed Bond agent and travels to pick up humans all over the country (florida, washington, DC, etc.), so he will pile a bunch of manuals in a rental van and drive them to you, probably for the same amount as if it were a human. Not cheap, but would get you your paper. (suv rental + his time, gas, food, probably ~$450) > This is the most hilarious offer I've heard in a long time. I'll probably not take it, but I'll darn well think about it! I wonder whether he'd consider moving a Grey Wall to be a lower or higher risk job compared to moving the usual fugitives? :D > > From steven at malikoff.com Fri Jun 24 18:49:14 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 09:49:14 +1000 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > Yes, please, thanks! If we can't track down any real ones, maybe we > could bang out some plans something nice/convenient. (I know, I know, > its silly, its just a pedestal stand with five casters...) > > --FritzM. > > On 06/24/2016 03:59 PM, Jason T wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> Was there a similar stand matched to the VT100 series, or shall I continue setting my VT131 on top of the PDP-8/M like a commoner? :) >> I have one of these, or similar stands. I'm not certain but I think >> it may have been designed to fit both VT5x and VT10x terms. It's >> currently in storage and in need of restoration, otherwise I'd get >> measurements for everyone. I can do it on the next storage trip, if >> people are interested. >> >> j Here is the DEC sales description for the VT52 stand, if that helps anyone: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/DEC_VT52_stand.jpg Steve. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 18:59:42 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:59:42 -0500 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 6:49 PM, wrote: > > Yes, please, thanks! If we can't track down any real ones, maybe we > > could bang out some plans something nice/convenient. (I know, I know, > > its silly, its just a pedestal stand with five casters...) > > > > --FritzM. > > > > On 06/24/2016 03:59 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >>> Was there a similar stand matched to the VT100 series, or shall I > continue setting my VT131 on top of the PDP-8/M like a commoner? :) > >> I have one of these, or similar stands. I'm not certain but I think > >> it may have been designed to fit both VT5x and VT10x terms. It's > >> currently in storage and in need of restoration, otherwise I'd get > >> measurements for everyone. I can do it on the next storage trip, if > >> people are interested. > >> > >> j > > Here is the DEC sales description for the VT52 stand, if that helps anyone: > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/DEC_VT52_stand.jpg > > Steve. > > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 19:05:07 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:05:07 -0500 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> Message-ID: I think they are different. If I can dig mine up, I'll probably use them. I know where there might be one or too, but they are currently burried. I'll call him next week to see if he'll sell them. If I go to VCF, I could bring a few VT52s or other items if requested. On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 6:49 PM, wrote: > >> > Yes, please, thanks! If we can't track down any real ones, maybe we >> > could bang out some plans something nice/convenient. (I know, I know, >> > its silly, its just a pedestal stand with five casters...) >> > >> > --FritzM. >> > >> > On 06/24/2016 03:59 PM, Jason T wrote: >> >> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >>> Was there a similar stand matched to the VT100 series, or shall I >> continue setting my VT131 on top of the PDP-8/M like a commoner? :) >> >> I have one of these, or similar stands. I'm not certain but I think >> >> it may have been designed to fit both VT5x and VT10x terms. It's >> >> currently in storage and in need of restoration, otherwise I'd get >> >> measurements for everyone. I can do it on the next storage trip, if >> >> people are interested. >> >> >> >> j >> >> Here is the DEC sales description for the VT52 stand, if that helps >> anyone: >> http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/DEC_VT52_stand.jpg >> >> Steve. >> >> > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 24 19:07:57 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 01:07:57 +0100 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <29FAEFD1-D6D3-4A7C-9D51-C156525F3A49@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 24/06/2016 23:27, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: > >> On Jun 24, 2016, at 12:17 , Ethan Dicks wrote: >> We had an LP25 on our DMF32. ISTR it's a Dataproducts B300 or >> something close to that. > > That sounds right. I googled for Dataproducts B300 pictures, and they look > awfully similar to the manual pictures I've seen of the LP32. Also, that web > page I linked to lists the LP32 as an LP26 variant. There's still an LP26 at my work, after dragging an LP25 down 2 flights of stairs nearly killed 3 of us we wisely decided to leave the other one in situ. Still up for grabs if you bring enough people to Newmarket, UK, formerly of Europe. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 19:13:43 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 17:13:43 -0700 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> On 06/24/2016 05:05 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > ...I know where there might be one or too, but they are currently burried. I'll call him next week to see if he'll sell them... That'd be great, thanks! --FritzM. From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 19:15:29 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 17:15:29 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2016, at 17:07 , Adrian Graham wrote: > Still up for grabs if you bring enough people to Newmarket, UK, formerly of > Europe. Maybe after I fit pontoons to my pickup truck! :D -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 24 19:26:12 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 01:26:12 +0100 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25/06/2016 01:15, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: > >> On Jun 24, 2016, at 17:07 , Adrian Graham >> wrote: >> Still up for grabs if you bring enough people to Newmarket, UK, formerly of >> Europe. > > Maybe after I fit pontoons to my pickup truck! :D Bring some VT100s with you and you've got a deal! (I wish I wasn't joking) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rlloken at telus.net Fri Jun 24 20:22:32 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:22:32 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Wanted: Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Ian Primus wrote: > It's been a long time since I've asked about this, so I figured it was > worth another shot. I've been looking for an Ann Arbor Ambassador > terminal for close to fifteen years, with no success. It's kind of an > obscure model, but they did exist. I heard of one being available > several years back, but, unfortunately, someone else got it before I > could. I have an Ann Arbor Ambassador here with the original owner's manual. It has been sitting on my shelf for 15 years or so, I must say the always evil, "It worked when I put it on the shelf" and I am not about to open a can of worms by plugging it in. There were slight variations over the time they were on the market (firmware versions?). I don't remember whether this is an early or later model. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From north at alum.mit.edu Fri Jun 24 20:28:30 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:28:30 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 6/24/2016 4:36 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Hi All, > > In bringing up and debugging my PDP 11/45, I found that one of my GRA (M8101) > spares has a failed ALU subsidiary ROM. It's a pretty standard little 32x8 > ROM in a 16-pin DIP, and the truth table is in the 11/45 print set. > > I wonder what the replacement options are for parts like these? In particular, > given the 30ns micro-cycle on the KB11-A, and the fact that the propagation > time for the ALU downstream of this is roughly 20ns on its own, I'd be worried > that an off-the-shelf bipolar PROM might be too slow here. > > I'm still a little slow on reading the microcode flows, so its not clear to me > exactly how many micro-cycles there are on the critical path for the E-class > instructions where this ROM is used. Maybe its not an issue. > > Anybody every try replacing one of these with a bipolar PROM? Any other > suggestions for how to repair parts like these? > > cheers, > --FritzM. > Almost 100% certainty the part already there is a small bipolar TTL PROM. What would you think it otherwise might be? For a lot of these logic replacement applications DEC used the open collector version, but it might be tristate variation. Check schematic. Also, the microcycle on the 11/45 (and 11/70 for that matter, basically the same design) is 150ns, not 30ns. There are various clock timing pulses (tp1, tp2, etc) but the datapath / control unit microcycle is 150ns. Don From rlloken at telus.net Fri Jun 24 20:28:56 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:28:56 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Please say southern California... ;) Unlike my grey wall which you know darn well is not in California. :) I also have a white wall of VMS version 7 docs which were perfect bound rather than in binders so they take up less space. Mark, I may have a couple of the Version 5 paperback books that can send you, one is a user's manual and the other AFAIR system manager's manual. I am slowly emptying my office at work so they could move to your office. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 20:52:34 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:52:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ACARD ARS-2000SUP versus SCSI2SD - round 1 Message-ID: Tested using "Raw block speed" test in LIDO 7 under MacOS: [SCSI2SD v5] READ: 891 KB/s WRITE: 728 KB/s [ACARD ARS-2000SUP] READ: 1621 KB/s WRITE: 1277 KB/s More info: The ACARD device contains a Samsung 850 Pro 128G SSD. The SCSI2SD contains a Samsung Pro+ 64GB micro SD and is running firmware v4.6, IIRC. Both are were attached to a Quadra 700 Macintosh running System 8.1 with 68 megs of RAM (4 onboard + 64MB in 16MB SIMMS, the max on the Quadra 700). I had them hooked up at the same time so I could use one to partition the other. The hard disk "driver" was the one provided by LIDO, but I also tried LaCie SilverLining 5's driver as well, but the performace was slightly worse. I tested in LIDO using it's raw speed test feature. It's probably only a rough measure of sequential speed. I just tested three times and averaged the results, but it was within just a few KB/s each time. Once I'm done I'll hook both of these up to a FreeBSD box, dd off full backups, then start over again and try with ZFS under FreeBSD via a PCI SCSI controller. Then again under IRIX if I still have the energy. I'll give some results from 'fio' or 'iozone' under FreeBSD. Those will be a lot more detailed and break down sequential versus random results and show the results of various other permutations. I'd also like to test the SCSI2SD v6, but I can't get my hands on one, yet. The only place that talks about the v6 is the codesrc wiki and the American ebay retailer seems to only have the v5.0. I'll wait, I guess. -Swift From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 21:41:05 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 21:41:05 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <576D81B1.2060904@oryx.us> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <6D325634-8812-4A97-A5C1-57668EAD7FE0@loomcom.com> <576D81B1.2060904@oryx.us> Message-ID: <20160625024105.GC84167@gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Any more details on those AT&T terminals? > > I could use an AT&T 605 terminal for the 3b2 I hope to someday acquire, > obviously after Seth gets all he needs. :) > > Jerry Any ADM-3As? > > > > > On 06/24/16 12:24 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > >Seth, cont. ... and be careful what you wish for. I think that he may > >have a full 6'x6'x6' pallet of AT&T terminals for you :) > > > >TK > > > >On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:23 PM, Todd Killingsworth < > >killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>Seth - I specifically asked about 3B2 boxes when I saw the AT&T > >>terminals. Unfortunately, the guy has already cleared them out of his > >>warehouse. > >> > >>Todd Killingsworth > >> > >>On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> > > >>>I call dibs on any and all AT&T terminals and 3B2 stuff! :^) > >>> > >>>-Seth > >>> > >>> > >> -- Eric Christopherson From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jun 24 21:41:17 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:41:17 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> Thanks for the info, Don -- learning a lot about this stuff as I go... I had wondered if the part might have been a mask ROM rather than a PROM. And wrt. timing, I was certainly mistaken to call the nominal interval between the clock pulses a microcycle. So after staring at the flows and prints a little more closely, it looks to me now like the IR will be latched at FET.10 t6 (which is really IRD.00 t1?) then there is the rest of intervening IRD.00 during which time control signals can propagate to and through decode logic and the subsidiary ROM and ALU, then the ALU results are latched into the shifter at EXC.80 t2 or EXC.90 t2. So that's a solid 150ns there minimally? From the prints, it looks like this is an open-collector part -- I don't see it called out, but the chip select is wired active and I can't see that the outputs have any other drivers. So that's good news for repairing my board! Which brings on the next question: do folks here have a recommendation for a good programmer to try and track down on eBay for programming these sorts of parts? cheers, --FritzM. On 06/24/2016 06:28 PM, Don North wrote: > Almost 100% certainty the part already there is a small bipolar TTL > PROM. What would you think it otherwise might be? > > For a lot of these logic replacement applications DEC used the open > collector version, but it might be tristate variation. Check schematic. > > Also, the microcycle on the 11/45 (and 11/70 for that matter, > basically the same design) is 150ns, not 30ns. > > There are various clock timing pulses (tp1, tp2, etc) but the datapath > / control unit microcycle is 150ns. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 21:42:34 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:42:34 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Thanks for the info, Don -- learning a lot about this stuff as I go... > > I had wondered if the part might have been a mask ROM rather than a PROM. > And wrt. timing, I was certainly mistaken to call the nominal interval > between the clock pulses a microcycle. > > So after staring at the flows and prints a little more closely, it looks > to me now like the IR will be latched at FET.10 t6 (which is really IRD.00 > t1?) then there is the rest of intervening IRD.00 during which time control > signals can propagate to and through decode logic and the subsidiary ROM > and ALU, then the ALU results are latched into the shifter at EXC.80 t2 or > EXC.90 t2. So that's a solid 150ns there minimally? > > From the prints, it looks like this is an open-collector part -- I don't > see it called out, but the chip select is wired active and I can't see that > the outputs have any other drivers. > > So that's good news for repairing my board! Which brings on the next > question: do folks here have a recommendation for a good programmer to try > and track down on eBay for programming these sorts of parts? > A Data-I/O 29A or 29B will do the job nicely. - Josh > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > > > On 06/24/2016 06:28 PM, Don North wrote: > >> Almost 100% certainty the part already there is a small bipolar TTL PROM. >> What would you think it otherwise might be? >> >> For a lot of these logic replacement applications DEC used the open >> collector version, but it might be tristate variation. Check schematic. >> >> Also, the microcycle on the 11/45 (and 11/70 for that matter, basically >> the same design) is 150ns, not 30ns. >> >> There are various clock timing pulses (tp1, tp2, etc) but the datapath / >> control unit microcycle is 150ns. >> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 24 21:47:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 19:47:02 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <85e340eb-2bbb-7427-a0f3-6e4de38cb232@bitsavers.org> On 6/24/16 7:42 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > A Data-I/O 29A or 29B will do the job nicely. > and a Unipak I or II like this www.ebay.com/itm/301995688339 From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Jun 24 22:07:50 2016 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 23:07:50 -0400 Subject: contemplating selling my VT52 Message-ID: I've been saving the VT52 I've owned for years (used it with a modem back in the late 80s to dial into school) with the thought of paring it up with a PDP-8/E, PDP-8/F, or PDP-8/M .... but I don't know that the PDP-8 train will ever stop here. I've come close a couple of times, but have either missed the train on a good deal, or not been in a position to stomach the pricing some of them fetch. So, I'm contemplating selling the VT-52. It has age typical wear, but last time it was powered on, it was working. There was a touchy connection that would act up once in a while requiring a tap on the side to bring it back around (something in the video connection no doubt). I never dug into it to resolve it 100%, as it didn't happen often, and a 'love tap' on the right side always brought it around. I'd like to hang onto it, but it is big. I'm entertaining offers which might sway my decision to keep/sell it. I'm located close to the intersection of Sharon, Easton, and Stoughton, MA. I don't think shipping is an option, unless your willing to pay, and take the risk on something like this being transported. If I can get a big enough box, I can pack it well.... but I'd prefer not to do it due to the risks involved. Keep VT52 in the subject line of any e-mail you send so I can find it easier. Sometimes I may only check mail here once a week, so if you are inquiring and don't hear from me for a while, no fear, I'll get around to you. -- Curt From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jun 24 22:10:24 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 22:10:24 -0500 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <576DF620.2090804@pico-systems.com> On 06/24/2016 06:36 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Hi All, > > In bringing up and debugging my PDP 11/45, I found that > one of my GRA (M8101) spares has a failed ALU subsidiary > ROM. It's a pretty standard little 32x8 ROM in a 16-pin > DIP, and the truth table is in the 11/45 print set. > > I wonder what the replacement options are for parts like > these? In particular, given the 30ns micro-cycle on the > KB11-A, and the fact that the propagation time for the ALU > downstream of this is roughly 20ns on its own, I'd be > worried that an off-the-shelf bipolar PROM might be too > slow here. > > I'm still a little slow on reading the microcode flows, so > its not clear to me exactly how many micro-cycles there > are on the critical path for the E-class instructions > where this ROM is used. Maybe its not an issue. > > Anybody every try replacing one of these with a bipolar > PROM? Any other suggestions for how to repair parts like > these? > Well, you could use a scope to find out what the good ROMS do for access time. Jon From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Jun 24 22:11:55 2016 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 23:11:55 -0400 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <85e340eb-2bbb-7427-a0f3-6e4de38cb232@bitsavers.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> <85e340eb-2bbb-7427-a0f3-6e4de38cb232@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2d827d5cb8ee24146fff408aa30ebc50@localhost> On 2016-06-24 22:47, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/24/16 7:42 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> A Data-I/O 29A or 29B will do the job nicely. >> > > and a Unipak I or II like this > www.ebay.com/itm/301995688339 I have a Data-I/O Series 22 which could do these, plus another burner that may do them. I haven't checked the whole thread, but I'm sure some others on here have the equipment to do these too. Is there a file containing the image ? You'll need to identify if that chip uses tri-state or open collector bipolar PROM. If DEC didn't completely obliterate the original markings, those would be very helpful (i.e. Atari tended to stamp on top of the original chip #s, so with some careful examination, you can usually figure out the original chip #). The bipolar PROMs aren't cheap like an EPROM.... depending on the source/brand/timing they cost anywhere from $5 to $20+ each. Then most people will usually ask for $5 to $10 to burn one.... or if you are really lucky... free.... -- Curt From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 24 22:36:33 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:36:33 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 2016-Jun-24, at 7:41 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > On 06/24/2016 06:28 PM, Don North wrote: >> Almost 100% certainty the part already there is a small bipolar TTL PROM. What would you think it otherwise might be? >> >> For a lot of these logic replacement applications DEC used the open collector version, but it might be tristate variation. Check schematic. >> >> Also, the microcycle on the 11/45 (and 11/70 for that matter, basically the same design) is 150ns, not 30ns. >> >> There are various clock timing pulses (tp1, tp2, etc) but the datapath / control unit microcycle is 150ns. > Thanks for the info, Don -- learning a lot about this stuff as I go... > > I had wondered if the part might have been a mask ROM rather than a PROM. And wrt. timing, I was certainly mistaken to call the nominal interval between the clock pulses a microcycle. > > So after staring at the flows and prints a little more closely, it looks to me now like the IR will be latched at FET.10 t6 (which is really IRD.00 t1?) then there is the rest of intervening IRD.00 during which time control signals can propagate to and through decode logic and the subsidiary ROM and ALU, then the ALU results are latched into the shifter at EXC.80 t2 or EXC.90 t2. So that's a solid 150ns there minimally? Many/most of the common bipolar fusible proms are Schottky class, so are quite fast. Take a look at 74S188 / 74S288 as a starting point. Down in the 20-30ns range. > From the prints, it looks like this is an open-collector part -- I don't see it called out, but the chip select is wired active and I can't see that the outputs have any other drivers. Are there pull-up resistors anywhere along the output/data lines? If not, it is more likely a tri-state device. > So that's good news for repairing my board! Which brings on the next question: do folks here have a recommendation for a good programmer to try and track down on eBay for programming these sorts of parts? Probably more than you want to bother with, but blowing fusible proms generally isn't all that difficult, I've hacked a burner on a breadboard with an RPi (substitute other microcontroller as desired), 2-3 common TTL ICs and a few transistors. From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Jun 24 22:39:25 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:39:25 -0700 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3CB772D5-53E4-429D-89C1-56D81D9C00E5@nf6x.net> > On Jun 24, 2016, at 18:28 , Richard Loken wrote: > > I am slowly emptying my office at work so they could move to your office. It's funny that you mention that, because things have been finding their way to my office at work to reduce the clutter at home... ;) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri Jun 24 22:40:51 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:40:51 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0AF95571-EEF1-4C5E-8C37-D319FE6D5F52@orthanc.ca> > On Jun 24, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > > I have an Ann Arbor Ambassador here with the original owner's manual. > It has been sitting on my shelf for 15 years or so, I must say the > always evil, "It worked when I put it on the shelf" and I am not about > to open a can of worms by plugging it in. It is guaranteed to need a re-capping of the power supply. This I know from experience. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Fri Jun 24 17:53:51 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:53:51 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <6c3a2b73b9cffc72a1017bfa2cd47abb@triadic.us> Any 64 bit sun stuff in there? I would be interested in those. But from the sounds of things it's an older collection, so probably not. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Fri Jun 24 17:53:51 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:53:51 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <559FE008-9DF4-462E-93D7-4431FA0D74E9@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <6c3a2b73b9cffc72a1017bfa2cd47abb@triadic.us> Any 64 bit sun stuff in there? I would be interested in those. But from the sounds of things it's an older collection, so probably not. From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jun 24 22:06:21 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:06:21 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rather have a C Itoh CT-101e .. knew one of the developers, F/W was done in the US I can no longer remember the key combination but the terminal would let you know who did it Anyone wants to gain a cubic foot or two let me know -pete On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 25/06/2016 01:15, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: > >> >>> On Jun 24, 2016, at 17:07 , Adrian Graham >>> wrote: >>> Still up for grabs if you bring enough people to Newmarket, UK, formerly of >>> Europe. >> >> Maybe after I fit pontoons to my pickup truck! :D > > Bring some VT100s with you and you've got a deal! > > (I wish I wasn't joking) > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From north at alum.mit.edu Fri Jun 24 23:11:48 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 21:11:48 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> <576DEF4D.3030203@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 6/24/2016 7:41 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > On 06/24/2016 06:28 PM, Don North wrote: >> Almost 100% certainty the part already there is a small bipolar TTL PROM. >> What would you think it otherwise might be? >> >> For a lot of these logic replacement applications DEC used the open collector >> version, but it might be tristate variation. Check schematic. >> >> Also, the microcycle on the 11/45 (and 11/70 for that matter, basically the >> same design) is 150ns, not 30ns. >> >> There are various clock timing pulses (tp1, tp2, etc) but the datapath / >> control unit microcycle is 150ns. > > Thanks for the info, Don -- learning a lot about this stuff as I go... > > I had wondered if the part might have been a mask ROM rather than a PROM. And > wrt. timing, I was certainly mistaken to call the nominal interval between the > clock pulses a microcycle. > > So after staring at the flows and prints a little more closely, it looks to me > now like the IR will be latched at FET.10 t6 (which is really IRD.00 t1?) then > there is the rest of intervening IRD.00 during which time control signals can > propagate to and through decode logic and the subsidiary ROM and ALU, then the > ALU results are latched into the shifter at EXC.80 t2 or EXC.90 t2. So that's > a solid 150ns there minimally? > > From the prints, it looks like this is an open-collector part -- I don't see > it called out, but the chip select is wired active and I can't see that the > outputs have any other drivers. > > So that's good news for repairing my board! Which brings on the next > question: do folks here have a recommendation for a good programmer to try and > track down on eBay for programming these sorts of parts? > > cheers, > --FritzM. > Device E74 on GRAA is a 32x8 bipolar PROM and there are no pullups on any outputs, so it is a tri-state device. The outputs directly drive the inputs of several TTL logic gates. Even if it were a mask ROM (not likely in that timeframe for that size device and in the volume DEC would have used it) the timing would still not be that different from a fusible link PROM. Access time would be in the 25ns to 50ns range. The 11/45 timing generator has five timing pulses TP1 thru TP5; each one in sequence at 30ns intervals, 150ns from TP1 to next TP1. In the flows they use nomenclature of TP1 thru TP6, and as you indicate TP6 is really the next TP1. Don From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 24 23:13:25 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 21:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >> 2) It's been too long so I don't remember, but don't you use normal pc >> floppies (5.25) and PUTR can format them? On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Yes, but you need the right type of PC floppy because RX50 are > single-sided and 80 tpi and 10 sectors-per-track (400K on one side). > I'm sure there are FAQs and instructions all over about the process... > I just don't recall off the top of my head which keywords to shop for > that are merely good enough for TRS-80s and C-64s and which will do > for RX50s. Single Sided Single Density will not cut it, not that uber > cheap floppies abound these days (Elephant? BASF? Only if you like > cleaning your heads between each diskette). That would be 80 TRACKS at 96 tracks per inch. Those would be the 300 Oersted disks, same diskettes as "360K". Do NOT use the 600 Oersted "1.2M"/"HD" disks. Being Single Sided, it really won't hurt to use just the first side of a Double Sided disk. 80 track V 40 track both call for the same chemistry of the coating, but you should probably bulk erase whatever you get. If you use a PC to format them, the requirements are essentially the same as for a "720K" 5.25". Formatting can not be done with a "360K" (40 track) drive, but can be done with a 1.2M drive, or with a 720K 5.25" (which aren't common in the PC world). There are a couple of potential complications to using a 1.2M drive, that can be gotten around in software. (96tpi track spacing, same write current, rotational speed and data transfer rate as for 360K) We all have our favorite and hated brands. Ones you buy now, would likely be used or New stale stock, but that probably won't be a problem if they were stored well. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 23:15:37 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 21:15:37 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Hi All, > > In bringing up and debugging my PDP 11/45, I found that one of my GRA > (M8101) spares has a failed ALU subsidiary ROM. It's a pretty standard > little 32x8 ROM in a 16-pin DIP, and the truth table is in the 11/45 print > set. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/1145_System_Engineering_Drawings_Jun74.pdf If you are talking about he ALU CNTL ROM on page 40 of the PDF and the truth table for it listed on page 48 of the PDF the part is listed as DM8598-AD, where a DM8598 is a 256-bit (32x8) tri-state bipolar mask ROM. Some substitute T.S. PROMs include the Signetics 82S123, AMD 27S19, National DM74S288. My BP Microsystems programmers support the 82S123 and 27S19, but maybe not the DM74S288. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 23:20:30 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 00:20:30 -0400 Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> 2) It's been too long so I don't remember, but don't you use normal pc >>> floppies (5.25) and PUTR can format them? > That would be 80 TRACKS at 96 tracks per inch. Right... 96tpi. Thanks. > Those would be the 300 Oersted disks, same diskettes as "360K". > Do NOT use the 600 Oersted "1.2M"/"HD" disks. OK. That's what I kind of remembered but didn't want to quote from memory. Personally, I've always had a stack of DEC RX50s, but I don't think my friend will easily find them these days. > Being Single Sided, it really won't hurt to use just the first side of a > Double Sided disk. Of course. > 80 track V 40 track both call for the same chemistry of the coating, but you > should probably bulk erase whatever you get. Right. Easy enough to do. > If you use a PC to format them, the requirements are essentially the same as > for a "720K" 5.25". Formatting can not be done with a "360K" (40 track) > drive, but can be done with a 1.2M drive, or with a 720K 5.25" (which aren't > common in the PC world). My usual 5.25" drive (I have several) is the Teac FD55GFR - strapped for RX33 use with DEC controllers or strapped slightly differently for PC use (I know the directions are floating around) > There are a couple of potential complications to using a 1.2M drive, that > can be gotten around in software. > (96tpi track spacing, > same write current, rotational speed and data transfer rate as for 360K) I'll look deeper into those issues when we find some media. > We all have our favorite and hated brands. > Ones you buy now, would likely be used or New stale stock, but that probably > won't be a problem if they were stored well. Right... outside of eBay, the question is where to find them, now that the particulars have been pulled out. -ethan From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jun 25 00:15:42 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 23:15:42 -0600 Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> 2) It's been too long so I don't remember, but don't you use normal pc >>> floppies (5.25) and PUTR can format them? > > On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> Yes, but you need the right type of PC floppy because RX50 are >> single-sided and 80 tpi and 10 sectors-per-track (400K on one side). >> I'm sure there are FAQs and instructions all over about the process... >> I just don't recall off the top of my head which keywords to shop for >> that are merely good enough for TRS-80s and C-64s and which will do >> for RX50s. Single Sided Single Density will not cut it, not that uber >> cheap floppies abound these days (Elephant? BASF? Only if you like >> cleaning your heads between each diskette). > > > That would be 80 TRACKS at 96 tracks per inch. > > Those would be the 300 Oersted disks, same diskettes as "360K". > Do NOT use the 600 Oersted "1.2M"/"HD" disks. > > Being Single Sided, it really won't hurt to use just the first side of a > Double Sided disk. Single vs double sided doesn't matter. > 80 track V 40 track both call for the same chemistry of the coating, but you > should probably bulk erase whatever you get. 40 track raw media sucks in an RX-50 drive. > If you use a PC to format them, the requirements are essentially the same as > for a "720K" 5.25". Formatting can not be done with a "360K" (40 track) > drive, but can be done with a 1.2M drive, or with a 720K 5.25" (which aren't > common in the PC world). > There are a couple of potential complications to using a 1.2M drive, that > can be gotten around in software. > (96tpi track spacing, > same write current, rotational speed and data transfer rate as for 360K) The controller for the PDP-11 can't format them. The Rainbow can format them w/o problems. You won't be able to use PC formatted 5.25" drives. The IBM AT 1.2MB floppies can be reformatted and perform adequately, but it's much better to use the proper quad density disks. By "adequately" I mean "in a pinch until you can get something better because the data is at risk" Some of the disks I used back in the day worked OK, while others didn't work so well. > We all have our favorite and hated brands. > Ones you buy now, would likely be used or New stale stock, but that probably > won't be a problem if they were stored well. Yea, I haven't bought new media in 15 years. My old stuff still works well enough... Warner From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jun 25 00:21:55 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 22:21:55 -0700 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <576E14F3.6080405@fritzm.org> Thanks much for all the info and help, folks! I'll see about tracking one of the programmers mentioned. I'd like to have one around in case I run into more parts like these. Was helping a friend with an old arcade game last weekend, and it had a few parts like these as well. --FritzM. From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jun 25 00:54:56 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 23:54:56 -0600 Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > My usual 5.25" drive (I have several) is the Teac FD55GFR - strapped > for RX33 use with DEC controllers or strapped slightly differently for > PC use (I know the directions are floating around) The RX-50 is a 80-track version of the 360k IBM-PC 40 track floppies. It was formatted at 10 sectors per track with smaller inter-sector padding bytes than normal. It uses the same rotation rate and data transfer rate as the older drive, which is different than the AT formatted floppies use. So RX-50's use 250k transfer rate, 80 tracks, usually 1 side (though the controller supports 2 sides, the physical RX-50's don't). 512 byte sectors. 16 bytes between sectors (as opposed to either 35 or 42 for IBM-PC floppies) with 46 bytes format gap (as opposed to 80 for IBM-PC floppies). This is how you got 400k out of a single sided 80 tracked disk. IIRC, the rotation rate is 300 for RX-50 and old IBM-PC vs 350 for the IBM-AT drive. All these niggling differences cause problems... > I'll look deeper into those issues when we find some media. One thing to avoid is disks with hub-rings. On the Rainbow they caused nothing but grief. You might not be able to at this late date, but if you have a choice. Something like http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BOX-OF-10-MAXELL-MD1-DD-SINGLE-SIDED-DOUBLE-DENSITY-5-1-4-FLOPPY-DISKS/131848023428 may work. These are single sided double density but list 96tpi, which means they will go to 80 tracks easily and should be able to be formatted in the Rainbow for use on the PDP-11. The 11's controller, like I said, won't format. Hope this helps. Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jun 25 01:08:50 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 00:08:50 -0600 Subject: Grey Wall (VMS) available In-Reply-To: <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> References: <002101d1ce37$63a18d30$2ae4a790$@classiccmp.org> <004601d1ce4e$176d1210$46473630$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Mark wrote... > ----- > Please say southern California... ;) > ----- > No, but at least the general region.... > > The lady got back with me just now and provided the following additional > info (including location). Please contact me off-list if interested/willing > to get 'em! > > =============== > VMS Programming Vols 1-9 > VMS General User 1-6b > Systems Management Vols 1-5b (8 total) > > Denver, CO I live in Denver and will go fetch these if someone wants to pay for shipping. These will qualify for book rate if you don't need them ASAP. Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jun 25 01:15:58 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 00:15:58 -0600 Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:54 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> My usual 5.25" drive (I have several) is the Teac FD55GFR - strapped >> for RX33 use with DEC controllers or strapped slightly differently for >> PC use (I know the directions are floating around) > > The RX-50 is a 80-track version of the 360k IBM-PC 40 track floppies. > It was formatted at 10 sectors per track with smaller inter-sector padding > bytes than normal. It uses the same rotation rate and data transfer rate > as the older drive, which is different than the AT formatted floppies > use. > > So RX-50's use 250k transfer rate, 80 tracks, usually 1 side (though > the controller supports 2 sides, the physical RX-50's don't). 512 byte > sectors. 16 bytes between sectors (as opposed to either 35 or 42 > for IBM-PC floppies) with 46 bytes format gap (as opposed to 80 > for IBM-PC floppies). This is how you got 400k out of a single sided > 80 tracked disk. IIRC, the rotation rate is 300 for RX-50 and old > IBM-PC vs 350 for the IBM-AT drive. All these niggling differences > cause problems... I was looking at the wrong row in my tables. The RX-50 uses the 300K transfer rate, while the 1.2MB IBM-AT floppy uses 500k. The rotation rate is different, but I'm having trouble locating that. Sorry for the possibly bad info. I added support for RX-50 to the FreeBSD driver (preliminary, mostly works for reading, writing has issues and formatting doesn't work) several years ago, so I needed to know... Warner From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jun 25 04:16:00 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:16:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Fritz Mueller wrote: > In bringing up and debugging my PDP 11/45, I found that one of my GRA (M8101) > spares has a failed ALU subsidiary ROM. It's a pretty standard little 32x8 > ROM in a 16-pin DIP, and the truth table is in the 11/45 print set. Some years ago I had to replace one such PROM in my 11/45 that is responsible for the ALU conditional codes. Since the PROM contents is quite simple, I replaced that with a GAL with the corresponding logic equations. Not a pretty solution, but I can replace it with a new PROM when I get one. A similar fault was in my RK05 "Cylinder Address and Difference" board, also changed the failed PROM with a GAL. The symptom was that the drive never "found" the desired track and instead, bumped the carriage to the inner stop. Christian From ben at bensinclair.com Sat Jun 25 05:15:31 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 05:15:31 -0500 Subject: ACARD ARS-2000SUP versus SCSI2SD - round 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Once I'm done I'll hook both of these up to a FreeBSD box, dd off full > backups, then start over again and try with ZFS under FreeBSD via a PCI > SCSI controller. Then again under IRIX if I still have the energy. > I'd love to see results under IRIX, as I was thinking of trying one or both of those myself! Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jun 25 05:41:44 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (pete) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:41:44 +0200 Subject: ACARD ARS-2000SUP versus SCSI2SD - round 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f596dd0-f95d-1bc6-f9b9-df5a79a7271e@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/06/2016 12:15, Ben Sinclair wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> Once I'm done I'll hook both of these up to a FreeBSD box, dd off full >> backups, then start over again and try with ZFS under FreeBSD via a PCI >> SCSI controller. Then again under IRIX if I still have the energy. > > I'd love to see results under IRIX, as I was thinking of trying one or both > of those myself! Seconded, though it looks like it'll be considerably slower than a real SCSI2 hard drive. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From lionelj at labyrinth.net.au Sat Jun 25 06:39:41 2016 From: lionelj at labyrinth.net.au (Lionel Johnson) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:39:41 +1000 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? In-Reply-To: <50cec2d0-3ce2-b1a9-a173-c52b0afbd9b8@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160622160139.73E2518C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2f40c8f1-3df9-fa0c-9256-ff115153258b@labyrinth.net.au> <50cec2d0-3ce2-b1a9-a173-c52b0afbd9b8@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 23/06/2016 10:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-06-23 3:20 AM, Lionel Johnson wrote: >> ... >> I joined CDC in Melbourne, Aust in 1972, worked mostly on 3200 machines >> - Didn't like the Cybers, but admired the horsepower. I could fix a >> 3200, every time, that was the best training I ever had, alone with my >> machine in Hobart, I loved it. When that ended, got into PDP 3rd party >> maint. Thus was a career made. >> Lionel. >> >> > > Hi Lionel > > I heard that the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology had a 6600? > Presumably you worked on it? > > --Toby > No, Toby, I didn't go to RMIT, as I was on the 3200 mntnce team, worked out of Head Office, mostly on the road to sites around Melbourne. CSIRO ( 3 sites ) Monash Uni, and the in-house machine. Lots of 200UT calls - usually clean and adjust throat gap on the card reader. It was better when I transferred to Hobart, it was all on-site at the Bureau of Stats. Best job I ever had. Lionel. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jun 25 09:15:32 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 10:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160625141532.0A40A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > the part is listed as DM8598-AD, where a DM8598 is a 256-bit (32x8) > tri-state bipolar mask ROM. > Some substitute T.S. PROMs include the Signetics 82S123 On my M8101, it's an 82S123, which is a tri-state programmable PROM (the 82S23 is the open-collector version of that chip). Those should be relatively easy to obtain. BTW, quick question: if a fusible link PROM 'fails' because one of the fusible links regrows, is it possible to 're-program' that particular chip, back to the 'original contents'? Some programmers might barf (because they want the chip to be 'empty' to start with'), but maybe one of those home-brew pgrogrammers could 'refresh' the chip (thereby avoiding using up a new chip, when it's not really needed)? > From: Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > Is there a file containing the image ? I'd really like to accumulate a database of the contents of all the PROM components for all the PDP-11 CPU's. I've got a few of them (for the -11/05), but there are zillions more. Anytime anyone creates one, can you please send me a copy, and I'll try and get them organized and uploaded (and if I _really_ get ambitious, I might try and start filling in the gaps). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jun 25 09:30:47 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 10:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal Message-ID: <20160625143047.55FC518C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Richard Loken > I have an Ann Arbor Ambassador here with the original owner's manual. If anyone else has _another_ AAA, I'd like one too! (I'm assuming Ian's going to be getting this one! :-) They were wonderful terminals, in their day - the largest screen of any terminal easily available at the time. People in Tech Sq preferred them to VT*, etc for that reason. Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 25 09:38:44 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:44 +0100 Subject: VR241 Stray Wire Message-ID: <008301d1ceef$473ada80$d5b08f80$@ntlworld.com> I took apart my VR241 recently to see if I could find the reason why the screen doesn't go completely black. I took lots of pictures while doing so, to make sure I could put it back together again correctly. However, now that I am putting it back together, there is one wire which looks like it wasn't connected. It is on the deflection board (on the right when looking from the back of the CRT). I am not sure now if I missed taking a photo of this when it was connected, or if it really should be not connected. There is a pin marked Size Link near to it, which might be where it has to go, and sounds like an optional thing if that is the case. You can see the wire in question at the bottom of the picture below, it is the green wire with a single-pin connector on it, and the size link connector is the two-pronged connector just below it in the photo: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AlQc3lJwQx7bgbAJQx-HsvGY8Gcqsg Anyone know where this wire should go? Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 25 10:48:51 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:48:51 +0000 Subject: VR241 Stray Wire In-Reply-To: <008301d1ceef$473ada80$d5b08f80$@ntlworld.com> References: <008301d1ceef$473ada80$d5b08f80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > You can see the wire in question at the bottom of the picture below, it is > the green wire with a single-pin connector on it, and the size link > connector is the two-pronged connector just below it in the photo: > > https://1drv.ms/i/s!AlQc3lJwQx7bgbAJQx-HsvGY8Gcqsg > > Anyone know where this wire should go? I believe you have 'my' schematic of the VR241. I think this wire is shown on sheet 2 of the scan board diagram, (page 7 of the .pdf file) just above C718. It's on the daughterboard that carries the horizontal output transistor, and is fitted onto one of 2 pins on that board labelled 'S' and 'L'. In one position it does nothing (so leaving it free would do no harm provided it doesn't short to anything), in the other is short-circuits C718. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 25 11:18:37 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 09:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Jun 2016, Warner Losh wrote: > I was looking at the wrong row in my tables. The RX-50 uses the > 300K transfer rate, while the 1.2MB IBM-AT floppy uses 500k. The > rotation rate is different, but I'm having trouble locating that. Sorry > for the possibly bad info. I added support for RX-50 to the FreeBSD > driver (preliminary, mostly works for reading, writing has issues and > formatting doesn't work) several years ago, so I needed to know... Your info is good. The RX-50 and the IBM "360K" when in their correct drives, spin at 300 RPM, with a data transfer rate of 250K bits per second. The "360K" is 40track/48tpi; RX-50 is 80track/96tpi The IBM "1.2M" diskettes (and 8"DD) spin at 360 RPM, with a data transfer rate of 500K bits per second. 80track/96tpi It gets more squirrelly when you want to use a "360K" disk (or RX-50) in a "1.2M" drive! You can either change the drive speed to 300RPM (on drives that support both speeds) and use a 250K data transfer rate, OR (on drives that don't change speed) leave the speed at 360 RPM, and change the data transfer rate to 300K bits per second to compensate for the different rotational speed. (It can get confusing because "300" is both the rotational speed of the "360K" and RX-50, AND is the data transfer rate when compensating for 360RPM, AND is the Oersted (coercivity) of the disks for "360K" and RX-50. "360" is both the rotational speed of "1.2M" and 8", AND is the polpular nake for IBM's DSDD 5150/5160 disks) Since the RX-50 is DD with 80 track/96tpi (what the marketing people called "QUAD density"), a "360K" drive won't work. A "1.2M" drive is 80 track/96tpi, but is more commonly used at 360 RPM and density that the marketing people called "high" (which is what the marketing people were; you won't believe what the Superbrain/Intertec people called DSDD80track!) The RIGHT drive for RX-50 would be a 5.25" "720K" drive, which weren't commonly used on PC. Such as Tandon TM100-4, Shugart/Matsushita 465, or Teac 55F. ("1.2M drives are #475 or 55G. 55FG is a "1.2M" drive that is explicitly intended to also be able to do "720K". Some "1.2M" drives can switch between 300RPM and 360RPM, some are stuck at 360RPM and need a data transfer rate change to compensate) Because the "1.2M" drive needed to also be able to read "360K" diskettes, provision was made. 40 track V 80 track can be read just fine by using every other track, BUT because the track width is different a "1.2M" drive does not adequately cover/erase a wide ("360K" track that it tries to write over. (1/3mm track width at 1/2mm spacing V 1/6mm track width at 1/4mm spacing) Need an analogy? Two bicyles can ride on the tracks made by a car, but the bicycle tire-prints won't obliterate the car tire-prints. In addition, for "360K" in a "1.2M" drive, either the rotational speed or the data transfer rate needs to change. SO, . . . to to do RX-50 in a "1.2M" drive, we need the 80track/96tpi track spacing, but the "360K" RPM/data transfer rate. Proper: 300RPM with 250K data transfer rate, 96tpi. "1.2M" kludge: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, 96tpi (Note: the Tandon TM100-4 is an excellent drive for this, but the TM100-4M is 100tpi instead of 96!) RX-50 and "360K" diskettes both have a coercivity of 300 Oersted. BUT, "360K" is tested at 48tpi. If there are flaws between the tracks, they won't be spotted in testing, but will show up for RX-50! So, ideally, you want disks tested for 96tpi (marketing "quad density"), or GOOD disks without flaws, even between the tracks. In theory, any good "360K" diskette should do, but some folk have encountered errors on disks not tested for 96tpi. "1.2M" diskettes have a coercivity of 600 Oersted. When written by a drive expecting 300 Oersted, data longevity may be shortened. (Roytype "HD" with TRS80 had an average data retention of less than an hour) Do NOT use "HD" ("1.2M") diskettes for any RX-50 data that you would like to keep. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 25 11:21:20 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:21:20 +0100 Subject: VR241 Stray Wire In-Reply-To: References: <008301d1ceef$473ada80$d5b08f80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <008801d1cefd$9c6f6990$d54e3cb0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 25 June 2016 16:49 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: VR241 Stray Wire > > > You can see the wire in question at the bottom of the picture below, > > it is the green wire with a single-pin connector on it, and the size > > link connector is the two-pronged connector just below it in the photo: > > > > https://1drv.ms/i/s!AlQc3lJwQx7bgbAJQx-HsvGY8Gcqsg > > > > Anyone know where this wire should go? > > I believe you have 'my' schematic of the VR241. I think this wire is shown on > sheet 2 of the scan board diagram, (page > 7 of the .pdf file) just above C718. It's on the daughterboard that carries the > horizontal output transistor, and is fitted onto one of 2 pins on that board > labelled 'S' and 'L'. In one position it does nothing (so leaving it free would do > no harm provided it doesn't short to anything), in the other is short-circuits > C718. > Yes I have your schematic and I had looked to see if I could see the wire but I had failed to spot it. Thanks for pointing it out. My worry was simply that I had not noted where it connected, but it seems it wasn't connected in the first place. Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 25 11:21:22 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:21:22 +0000 Subject: VR241 Stray Wire In-Reply-To: <008801d1cefd$9c6f6990$d54e3cb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <008301d1ceef$473ada80$d5b08f80$@ntlworld.com> , <008801d1cefd$9c6f6990$d54e3cb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > Yes I have your schematic and I had looked to see if I could see the wire > but I had failed to spot it. Thanks for pointing it out. My worry was simply > that I had not noted where it connected, but it seems it wasn't connected in > the first place. To prevent it shorting, stick it onto the pin labelled 'S'. If the pins aren't labelled, do a contiuity test between the socket end of the wire and each of the pins, it should be a dead short to one of them and an open circuit to the other. Stick it on the one it seems to be shorted to. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 25 11:34:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 09:34:00 -0700 Subject: Current source for RX50 media? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1ce5a$9c68d6f0$d53a84d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <576EB278.2080209@sydex.com> On 06/24/2016 09:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > There are a couple of potential complications to using a 1.2M drive, > that can be gotten around in software. (96tpi track spacing, same > write current, rotational speed and data transfer rate as for 360K) IBM-style PCs with 1.2M drives use a 300Kbit/sec transfer rate for double-density floppies. A tool such as Dave Dunfield's IMD will work just fine. The last time I duped a bunch of RX50s, I used Verbatim "DSDD" media. Forget about searching for "96 tpi" or "100 tpi" branded floppies--all that indicates is that verification was performed as part of manufacturing QA at the indicated track density--it doesn't really have a bearing on the results. If a DSDD floppy is good at 360KB, the chances are overwhelming that it'll be fine in DSQD mode. As far as ring-less hub floppies go, those are difficult to find and probably quite old, unless they're specifically labeled (complete with little arrows) for RX50 use. Hub rings differ between brands in thickness; the "clear" type are generally thinner than the opaque (black or white) ones. As an aside, the reinforcing ring was originally introduced for early FH 5.25" drives that didn't have circuitry to sense when a disk was being inserted and activate the spindle motor. The result that a floppy could be clamped off-center and mangle the hub area and the data on the floppy itself. I remember that Dysan and Verbatim started doing this when the old un-modified Micropolis drives were in use. Initially, it started with a supplied jig and a bunch of self-stick hub rings. In a short time, the jig and rings were dropped and floppies simply came with the rings applied. As most 8" drives of the time have AC line motors that spin continuously, this mis-registration was never a problem there. When half-height DC-spindle motor 8" drives came out, the problem was already known in the industry, so 8" floppies don't have the rings. 1.2M (DSHD) floppy drives came much later, after the problem had been diagnosed and remedied, so those don't *unually* have hub rings. FWIW, Chuck From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 12:01:11 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:01:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: ACARD ARS-2000SUP versus SCSI2SD - round 1 In-Reply-To: <6f596dd0-f95d-1bc6-f9b9-df5a79a7271e@dunnington.plus.com> References: <6f596dd0-f95d-1bc6-f9b9-df5a79a7271e@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Jun 2016, pete wrote: > > I'd love to see results under IRIX, as I was thinking of trying one or both > > of those myself! > Seconded, though it looks like it'll be considerably slower than a real SCSI2 > hard drive. I'm not sure about that. I've got another ACARD unit (the faster SCA model) that I use in my Tezro. I also have a second disk (the Tezro can hold a couple) that's a spinning rust 15k Barracuda. I don't have numbers right now (next time I fire up my Tezro I'll get some). However, anecdotally, the ACARD disk (also predicated on a Samsung 850 Pro SATA SSD) will absolutely stomp the Barracuda's guts out in every stat and especially on latency. The main time I can "feel" it is when I run Photoshop or a browser. The SSD-based ACARD makes the system feel a lot faster. Pages finish loading faster, 'rqsall' takes about half as long, packages install much more quickly, and the silly delays you get when 'inst' is reading package metadata takes a lot less time. I curse at it only about half as much (I love IRIX but 'inst' and I aren't pals - I haze it often). I know that's all anecdotal, but I'm pretty sure I tested the disk when I first got it and it blew the rust-based drive away. I've just got my bench all covered with Quadra 700 parts and various jury-rigged SCSI cables so I can install from CDROM on a machine that doesn't have space for a CDROM etc.. When I finish refurbing this thing with a MacOS + A/UX 3 dual boot rig, I'll grab the SGIs. I'll try out the ACARD vs SCSI2SD on my R5k/180 Indy. -Swift From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 25 12:06:07 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 10:06:07 -0700 Subject: S/360 Model 30 (?) FS in NC Message-ID: <576EB9FF.4080001@sydex.com> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?53014-IBM-360-with-additional-era-equipment --Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jun 25 12:29:31 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 13:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: S/360 Model 30 (?) FS in NC Message-ID: <20160625172931.1D06E18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Oooh, if I didn't have an _extremely_ strict rule about 'only PDP-11's' (to prevent my house filling to the gills, and my wife divorcing me :-), I'd be all over that. Someone definitely needs to grab this up! Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 25 12:57:22 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 10:57:22 -0700 Subject: S/360 Model 30 (?) FS in NC In-Reply-To: <576EB9FF.4080001@sydex.com> References: <576EB9FF.4080001@sydex.com> Message-ID: Maybe a 2841 disk controller, but the 360/30 panel has been pulled. Hard to say what is really there. LCM may be interested in parts for their 360/30, and Will Donzelli has been looking for a 2841 On 6/25/16 10:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?53014-IBM-360-with-additional-era-equipment > > --Chuck > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." > From wsudol at freedom.com Sat Jun 25 10:40:47 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:40:47 +0000 Subject: options for replacing failed small ROMs in PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <576E14F3.6080405@fritzm.org> References: <576DC3FD.2040900@fritzm.org> , <576E14F3.6080405@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Here is an ebay link to a pretty good (IMHO) guide to the data I/O programmers. http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574933636&toolid=10001&campid=5336728181&customid=&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eebay%2Ecom%2Fgds%2FData-I-O-Device-Programmers-A-Condensed-Reference-%2F10000000001698682%2Fg%2Ehtml Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2016, at 10:22 PM, Fritz Mueller > wrote: Thanks much for all the info and help, folks! I'll see about tracking one of the programmers mentioned. I'd like to have one around in case I run into more parts like these. Was helping a friend with an old arcade game last weekend, and it had a few parts like these as well. --FritzM. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Jun 25 13:05:00 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 14:05:00 -0400 Subject: S/360 Model 30 (?) FS in NC Message-ID: <2707cc.232824a3.44a021cc@aol.com> I still have the aluminum bar that says 360 30 that was on the top of the system here in phx. I bought early on in my computer business life segment. Aside from being part of a memento for me and sort of interesting sitting in a glass case... it may need to find its way back atop a 360/30 someday. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 6/25/2016 10:57:07 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: Maybe a 2841 disk controller, but the 360/30 panel has been pulled. Hard to say what is really there. LCM may be interested in parts for their 360/30, and Will Donzelli has been looking for a 2841 On 6/25/16 10:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?53014-IBM-360-with-additional-era-equipment > > --Chuck > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jun 25 13:40:44 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:40:44 -0700 Subject: S/360 Model 30 (?) FS in NC In-Reply-To: <20160625172931.1D06E18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160625172931.1D06E18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: This reminds me: I wonder if anybody picked up that System/32 that was up for sale at a recycler near me several months ago? I hope it didn't take another spin around the aluminum cycle. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 13:57:28 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:57:28 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: New video from yesterday?s work. https://youtu.be/MDKxOmVDapQ Ken will probably post a much more detailed article later. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "aek at bitsavers.org" Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Monday, June 20, 2016 at 8:51 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines I post just went up on Saturday. It's nice that both CHM and LCM folks are helping with this. On 6/20/16 8:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html Found via: http://www.osnews.com/story/29261/Xerox_Alto_restoring_the_legendary_1970s_GUI_computer There are 2 videos up so far, with disassemblies that may interest CCmpers. Some people from the list are involved, including Al Kossow, but I haven't seen the link posted. From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 16:32:53 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:32:53 -0400 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... Message-ID: Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 I included pics with model numbers where I could find them >From what I could see: ** NO PDP or SGI anything (not even a coffee mug) ** Commodore 64 with peripherals, pretty much new in box Sun E3000 DEC VAX and Alpha desktop boxes DEC VAXServer 3800 Three IBM mainframe peripherals of some sort IBM robotic tape archiver Terminals: DEC, IBM, Qume, AT&T, others CRT displays Printers: Okidata, etc Keyboards: lots of special IBM versions, listed below 8 pcs of the rare short Keyboard I described to you earlier. Model F Keybds: I am not sure how many model F keyboards I have, but I do have them. ~ 4 pcs of Original IBM PC and PC XT Keyboards (1981-1984) IBM 5251 Keybds: I have approx 8 pcs of 5251 Keyboards. Keyboards we have: IBM 3151 104 ~20 IBM 3161 104 ~50 IBM 3162 104 ~25 IBM 3163 104 ~25 IBM 3164 104 ~50? IBM 3178 ~100 IBM 3179 ~100 IBM 3180 122 ~150? IBM 3191 ~100? IBM 3192 122 & 104 ~100? IBM 3193 Unkown Qty yet ? IBM 3194 Unkown Qty yet ? IBM 3196 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 IBM 3197 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 IBM 5155 Unkown Qty yet ? IBM PC XT/AT Unkown Qty yet ? IBM 3471 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3472 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3476 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3477 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3481 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3482 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3483 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3486 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3487 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3488 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 IBM 3489 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 Here are detailed part numbers: (we probably have other models not listed!!) 1368193 1386304 1386887 1390123 3191/3192 1390238 3191/3192 1390572 3196/3197 1390572 3196/3197 1390702 3191 1390702 3192 1390876 3196/3197 1390876 3196/3197 1391401 Clicky Vintage 1392595 1394099 1394100 3471, 3472, 3481, 3482 3483 122-Key 1394167 3476, 3477, 3486, 3487 122-Key 1394193 1394204 3472 104-Key 1394204 1394802 1394806 1395162 1395660 3476, 3477, 3486, 3487 122-Key 1395665 3476, 3477, 3486, 3487 104-Key 1395666 6110668 3180? 6115543 3180? Qty 1 IBM 5642852 for the IBM 5291-1 (the -1 is the rare one) Manufactured 1991-1993 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 25 16:40:45 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:40:45 +0100 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009501d1cf2a$3bea4540$b3becfc0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Todd > Killingsworth > Sent: 25 June 2016 22:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... > > Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: > > https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 > > I included pics with model numbers where I could find them > > From what I could see: > > ** NO PDP or SGI anything (not even a coffee mug) ** > I see a DECstation 5000/240. I'd love one of those, but, as usual, shipping to the UK would make it prohibitive :-( From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 16:57:48 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 14:57:48 -0700 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: > > https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 > For DEC gear some of what I see are at least one or multiple of: AlphaServer 800 AlphaServer 1000A DECstation 3100 DECstation 5000/200 DECstation 5000/240 VAXstation 4000/60 VAXstation 3100/M48 MicroVAX 3800 VT510 desktop Storage Expansion boxes If I was local I might grab a VAXstation 4000/60, MicroVAX 3800, VT510. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 17:00:49 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 10:00:49 +1200 Subject: S/360 Model 30 (?) FS in NC In-Reply-To: <20160625172931.1D06E18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160625172931.1D06E18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: What?! Where did you see this? On Jun 26, 2016 5:32 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > Oooh, if I didn't have an _extremely_ strict rule about 'only PDP-11's' (to > prevent my house filling to the gills, and my wife divorcing me :-), I'd be > all over that. Someone definitely needs to grab this up! > > Noel > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 17:08:04 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:08:04 -0500 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think i saw a VR241 in there. On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Todd Killingsworth > wrote: > > Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: > > > > https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 > > > > For DEC gear some of what I see are at least one or multiple of: > > AlphaServer 800 > AlphaServer 1000A > DECstation 3100 > DECstation 5000/200 > DECstation 5000/240 > VAXstation 4000/60 > VAXstation 3100/M48 > MicroVAX 3800 > VT510 > desktop Storage Expansion boxes > > If I was local I might grab a VAXstation 4000/60, MicroVAX 3800, VT510. > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 17:20:37 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 10:20:37 +1200 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 9:32 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: > > https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 > > I included pics with model numbers where I could find them > > From what I could see: > > ** NO PDP or SGI anything (not even a coffee mug) ** > > Commodore 64 with peripherals, pretty much new in box > Sun E3000 > DEC VAX and Alpha desktop boxes > DEC VAXServer 3800 > Three IBM mainframe peripherals of some sort Those 'mainframe peripherals' are 3174 & 3274 terminal controllers. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 17:31:40 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 18:31:40 -0400 Subject: S/360 Model 30 (?) FS in NC In-Reply-To: References: <20160625172931.1D06E18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Fall in line, Mike, fall in line... -- Will On Jun 25, 2016 6:00 PM, "Mike Ross" wrote: > What?! Where did you see this? > On Jun 26, 2016 5:32 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > Oooh, if I didn't have an _extremely_ strict rule about 'only PDP-11's' > (to > > prevent my house filling to the gills, and my wife divorcing me :-), I'd > be > > all over that. Someone definitely needs to grab this up! > > > > Noel > > > From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sat Jun 25 17:35:51 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 08:35:51 +1000 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Terminals: DEC, IBM, Qume, AT&T, others A shout-out to the "others" category as there appears to be a mountain of Unisys T0300 terminals there, quite a nice alternative to the mainstream with several built-in emulations: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unisys-TO300-G-Terminal-/262072849895 From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sat Jun 25 17:43:22 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 08:43:22 +1000 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a chuckle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/144446985 at N04/27810356761/in/album-72157670110346756/ A tub full of blue capacitors but also known as "caps", the tub is labelled "VAULT MONEY", a reference to the game Fallout and the monetised Bottle Caps? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 25 17:51:49 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 23:51:49 +0100 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009f01d1cf34$2a376ee0$7ea64ca0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Anderson > Sent: 25 June 2016 23:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... > > I think i saw a VR241 in there. > I failed to spot that, and to think that this evening I have been working on my VR241!! Regards Rob From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 17:59:45 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 18:59:45 -0400 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: <009f01d1cf34$2a376ee0$7ea64ca0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009f01d1cf34$2a376ee0$7ea64ca0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <79B86A2D-FC2B-4A59-B62D-B67E463402F5@gmail.com> HA! I missed that, and I took the picture! Sent from my iPad > On Jun 25, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul >> Anderson >> Sent: 25 June 2016 23:08 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... >> >> I think i saw a VR241 in there. > > I failed to spot that, and to think that this evening I have been working on my VR241!! > > Regards > > Rob > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 18:15:14 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 18:15:14 -0500 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: <009f01d1cf34$2a376ee0$7ea64ca0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009f01d1cf34$2a376ee0$7ea64ca0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: pic 4938...la210? 7973 vr241 or vt220s? 4991lk201s? 4997...face down, upper left, vr241? On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 5:51 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > > Anderson > > Sent: 25 June 2016 23:08 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... > > > > I think i saw a VR241 in there. > > > > I failed to spot that, and to think that this evening I have been working > on my VR241!! > > Regards > > Rob > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Jun 25 18:45:32 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 00:45:32 +0100 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25/06/2016 22:32, "Todd Killingsworth" wrote: > Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: > > https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 > Wish I was a bit closer to pick up that ProFile drive... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 18:53:05 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 19:53:05 -0400 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19f0bc02-8ce5-9816-709e-54343097937a@yahoo.com> Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Todd Killingsworth > wrote: >> Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: >> >> https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 >> > > For DEC gear some of what I see are at least one or multiple of: > > AlphaServer 800 > AlphaServer 1000A > DECstation 3100 > DECstation 5000/200 > DECstation 5000/240 > VAXstation 4000/60 > VAXstation 3100/M48 > MicroVAX 3800 > VT510 > desktop Storage Expansion boxes > > If I was local I might grab a VAXstation 4000/60, MicroVAX 3800, VT510. > I'm in Cincinnati so not that far away. I'd like a VAXstation 4000/60, a storage expansion box and a VT510, but I'm not sure how my wife feels about it. ;) The MicroVAX 3800 would be nice, too. But all of these are wants, not needs, and I can't take pallets of the stuff anyway. Wife would definitely put the hex on THAT! :-o John H. Reinhardt From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 21:55:24 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 19:55:24 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> There are only two entries right now: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html Marc On 24 June 2016 at 10:05, wrote: And here is Ken's new post in the series http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html I can't see any dates on the post, but I am not seeing a new one there... -- Liam Proven From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 22:09:00 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:09:00 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification Message-ID: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> So I know for certain that this topic has come up before, but I cannot for the life of me find the thread(s) it appeared in, so I'm asking again (apologies in advance). What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm looking for... Thanks as always, Josh From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 22:12:09 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 23:12:09 -0400 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early > test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 > chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need > to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm > looking for... The trade name is 163. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 22:12:52 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:12:52 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > So I know for certain that this topic has come up before, but I cannot for > the life of me find the thread(s) it appeared in, so I'm asking again > (apologies in advance). > > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early > test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 > chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need > to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm > looking for... Round or oval? Maybe a 163 as shown on Brent's page here: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html#163 From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jun 25 22:15:15 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:15:15 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 25, 2016, at 20:12, William Donzelli wrote: > >> What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early >> test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 >> chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need >> to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm >> looking for... > > The trade name is 163. I seem to recall encountering two different pinouts of that connector in equipment that has passed through my hands. My memory may be faulty, but I think that the ground lead was consistent but the hot/neutral were wired two different ways. Did I make this all up? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 22:23:57 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:23:57 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So I know for certain that this topic has come up before, but I cannot > for > > the life of me find the thread(s) it appeared in, so I'm asking again > > (apologies in advance). > > > > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on > early > > test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an > S-100 > > chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I > need > > to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly > I'm > > looking for... > > Round or oval? > > Maybe a 163 as shown on Brent's page here: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html#163 > Thanks (also thanks to William). The 163's the one I'm looking for. That was quick! :) - Josh From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 22:38:12 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:38:12 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oval "HP" cords. Used on my older HP equipment and my Friden SWT 10 calculator. "New" ones show up on occasion on ebay for pretty cheap, this guy claims to have them in stock (all the way at the bottom) http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html#Power Marc > On Jun 25, 2016, at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So I know for certain that this topic has come up before, but I cannot for the life of me find the thread(s) it appeared in, so I'm asking again (apologies in advance). > > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm looking for... > > Thanks as always, > Josh From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 25 22:57:18 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 03:57:18 +0000 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Yes, there where two different type each with different hot and neutral. Luckily, most equipment with these have transformers. With a GFI socket there should be no issue. >From some recent reports, no major wire maker is still making these. It seems there may be a small market for an adapter. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Curious Marc Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 8:38:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Power cable identification Oval "HP" cords. Used on my older HP equipment and my Friden SWT 10 calculator. "New" ones show up on occasion on ebay for pretty cheap, this guy claims to have them in stock (all the way at the bottom) http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html#Power Marc > On Jun 25, 2016, at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So I know for certain that this topic has come up before, but I cannot for the life of me find the thread(s) it appeared in, so I'm asking again (apologies in advance). > > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm looking for... > > Thanks as always, > Josh From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 23:01:30 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:01:30 +1200 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 26, 2016 3:12 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So I know for certain that this topic has come up before, but I cannot for > > the life of me find the thread(s) it appeared in, so I'm asking again > > (apologies in advance). > > > > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early > > test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 > > chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need > > to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm > > looking for... > > Round or oval? > > Maybe a 163 as shown on Brent's page here: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html#163 Ahh. The place I always think of those is on IBM 3278 terminals. Mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 25 23:06:39 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 04:06:39 +0000 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> , Message-ID: You might try these guys. http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/hp1.html HP Used Electronic Test Equipment - Sphere www.sphere.bc.ca Great deals in HP Used Electronic Test Equipment and Parts: Welcome To Sphere Research's Canadian Test Equipment & Parts Site! This Section Updated Weekly ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mike Ross Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 9:01:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Power cable identification On Jun 26, 2016 3:12 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So I know for certain that this topic has come up before, but I cannot for > > the life of me find the thread(s) it appeared in, so I'm asking again > > (apologies in advance). > > > > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early > > test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 > > chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need > > to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm > > looking for... > > Round or oval? > > Maybe a 163 as shown on Brent's page here: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html#163 Ahh. The place I always think of those is on IBM 3278 terminals. Mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 25 23:21:47 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 04:21:47 +0000 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> , , Message-ID: Might also try http://www.alliedelec.com/alpha-wire-543-bk078/70125977/?utm_source=octopart&utm_medium=part_sourcing&utm_campaign=octopart [http://www.alliedelec.com/images/products/Small/70125977.jpg] Alpha Wire - 543 BK078 - Black C13 connector NEMA 5-15 ... www.alliedelec.com 543 BK078 from Alpha Wire at Allied Electronics ... Application: For business machines, point-of-sale terminals, computers and peripheral equipment, OEM equipment ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 9:06:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Power cable identification You might try these guys. http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/hp1.html HP Used Electronic Test Equipment - Sphere www.sphere.bc.ca Great deals in HP Used Electronic Test Equipment and Parts: Welcome To Sphere Research's Canadian Test Equipment & Parts Site! This Section Updated Weekly ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mike Ross Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 9:01:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Power cable identification On Jun 26, 2016 3:12 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So I know for certain that this topic has come up before, but I cannot for > > the life of me find the thread(s) it appeared in, so I'm asking again > > (apologies in advance). > > > > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early > > test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? I have an S-100 > > chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. I need > > to track one of these cables down but I have no idea what it is exactly I'm > > looking for... > > Round or oval? > > Maybe a 163 as shown on Brent's page here: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html#163 Ahh. The place I always think of those is on IBM 3278 terminals. Mike From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 23:57:27 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:57:27 -0600 Subject: wanted: TI Silent 700 Model 763 & 765 Maintenance Manual Message-ID: Does anyone have that? The manual for Model 743 & 745 is on Bitsavers, but I'm specifically looking for model 763 & 765. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Jun 26 01:35:50 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 08:35:50 +0200 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160626063549.GF7239@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 01:26:12AM +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 25/06/2016 01:15, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: > > > > >> On Jun 24, 2016, at 17:07 , Adrian Graham > >> wrote: > >> Still up for grabs if you bring enough people to Newmarket, UK, formerly of > >> Europe. > > > > Maybe after I fit pontoons to my pickup truck! :D > > Bring some VT100s with you and you've got a deal! > > (I wish I wasn't joking) > We should arrange for a container to go yearly between the states and EU.. alternatively when it is full. /P From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 26 01:47:40 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 23:47:40 -0700 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <20160626063549.GF7239@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160626063549.GF7239@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > On Jun 25, 2016, at 23:35, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > We should arrange for a container to go yearly between the states and EU.. > alternatively when it is full. Let's have it travel by truck and/or rail across the continents at each end, bouncing between the US west coast and easternish Europe, making many stops along the way! Can the military radio folks share the container? Much of the military radio gear is big, too. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bryan at bceassociates.com Sat Jun 25 16:48:34 2016 From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:48:34 -0400 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Todd, I'd love one (or maybe two to get working parts) of the VAXstation 4000 boxes. I come to Atlanta about every other week but I'd also be happy to pay for shipping. Is there a possibility I could work something out? Thanks, Bryan On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: > > https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 > > I included pics with model numbers where I could find them > > From what I could see: > > ** NO PDP or SGI anything (not even a coffee mug) ** > > Commodore 64 with peripherals, pretty much new in box > Sun E3000 > DEC VAX and Alpha desktop boxes > DEC VAXServer 3800 > Three IBM mainframe peripherals of some sort > IBM robotic tape archiver > Terminals: DEC, IBM, Qume, AT&T, others > CRT displays > Printers: Okidata, etc > > Keyboards: lots of special IBM versions, listed below > > 8 pcs of the rare short Keyboard I described to you earlier. > Model F Keybds: I am not sure how many model F keyboards I have, > but I do have them. > > ~ 4 pcs of Original IBM PC and PC XT Keyboards (1981-1984) > > IBM 5251 Keybds: I have approx 8 pcs of 5251 Keyboards. > > Keyboards we have: > IBM 3151 104 ~20 > IBM 3161 104 ~50 > IBM 3162 104 ~25 > IBM 3163 104 ~25 > IBM 3164 104 ~50? > IBM 3178 ~100 > IBM 3179 ~100 > IBM 3180 122 ~150? > IBM 3191 ~100? > IBM 3192 122 & 104 ~100? > IBM 3193 Unkown Qty yet ? > IBM 3194 Unkown Qty yet ? > IBM 3196 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 > IBM 3197 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 > IBM 5155 Unkown Qty yet ? > IBM PC XT/AT Unkown Qty yet ? > IBM 3471 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3472 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3476 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3477 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3481 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3482 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3483 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3486 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3487 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3488 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > IBM 3489 122 & 104 ~75 pcs of 104 Sm qty of 122 > > Here are detailed part numbers: (we probably have other models not > listed!!) > > 1368193 > 1386304 > 1386887 > 1390123 3191/3192 > 1390238 3191/3192 > 1390572 3196/3197 > 1390572 3196/3197 > 1390702 3191 > 1390702 3192 > 1390876 3196/3197 > 1390876 3196/3197 > 1391401 Clicky Vintage > 1392595 > 1394099 > 1394100 3471, 3472, 3481, 3482 3483 122-Key > 1394167 3476, 3477, 3486, 3487 122-Key > 1394193 > 1394204 3472 104-Key > 1394204 > 1394802 > 1394806 > 1395162 > 1395660 3476, 3477, 3486, 3487 122-Key > 1395665 3476, 3477, 3486, 3487 104-Key > 1395666 > 6110668 3180? > 6115543 3180? > > Qty 1 IBM 5642852 for the IBM 5291-1 (the -1 is the rare one) > Manufactured 1991-1993 From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 20:50:00 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:50:00 -0400 Subject: making music with pdp 11/40 Message-ID: anyone make music with the pdp 11/40 or UNIBUS system similar to the PDP 8e music? I was able to get a basic tone pattern into the AM radio today. Not sure how to "write" music, but it's a start. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From wlosh at bsdimp.com Sat Jun 25 22:06:48 2016 From: wlosh at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:06:48 -0600 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F88F83A-89A8-42C3-9D02-3BD1F22F0DC1@bsdimp.com> > On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > >>> and BSD is better on servers. >> *Ridiculously* contentious. I'm seeing and hearing of little _real_ >> adoption. Netflix streams 39% of peak US internet traffic[*] from FreeBSD servers. At the high end, we?re even able to do about 85G of https (encrypted) traffic on a single socket server off NVMe drives, and would do more but we?re DRAM memory bandwidth limited. Netflix OCA network has thousands of machines streaming tens of terabits per second for hours at a time at peak located in dozens of countries in hundreds of data centers worldwide. I can?t disclose exact numbers, but I?d call that real. Warner P.S. I am a little biased as a FreeBSD user since the early 90?s and as one of the guys working at Netflix to make our OpenConnect Appliances (OCA) rock. [*] According to published reported by Sandvine and others. From alan at alanlee.org Sun Jun 26 03:42:52 2016 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 04:42:52 -0400 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <6D325634-8812-4A97-A5C1-57668EAD7FE0@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <058f04f42a0761632ab4e88561b64caa@alanlee.org> Does he really have a palette of AT&T terminals? I'm local in Atlanta and may move them out if still available. -Alan On 2016-06-24 13:24, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Seth, cont. ... and be careful what you wish for. I think that he may > have a full 6'x6'x6' pallet of AT&T terminals for you :) > > TK > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:23 PM, Todd Killingsworth < > killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > > Seth - I specifically asked about 3B2 boxes when I saw the AT&T > terminals. Unfortunately, the guy has already cleared them out of his > warehouse. > > Todd Killingsworth > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > On Jun 24, 2016, at 7:39 AM, Todd Killingsworth < killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: > Heh. No, guys - I've not bought the whole building! > > I've got the 100+ pictures loaded up for editing, but I still have to > resize them to jpg. No SGI, a few IBM big peripherals, some DEC VAX and Alpha boxes (no PDP anything), a Sun E3K, and $DEITY's own collection of terminals and keyboards. > Terminals from IBM Mainframes and midrange, pallets of DEC terminals, HP > terminals (or monitor/keyboard combos for HP PA-RISC machines??). Also > oddballs like AT&T, Qume, Texas Instruments, WISE, etc. > > I call dibs on any and all AT&T terminals and 3B2 stuff! :^) > > -Seth From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 04:28:01 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 04:28:01 -0500 Subject: making music with pdp 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can take a signal from an accumulator bit amplify it and run it through a speaker. That's what we did on the Q-7 On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 8:50 PM, william degnan wrote: > anyone make music with the pdp 11/40 or UNIBUS system similar to the PDP 8e > music? I was able to get a basic tone pattern into the AM radio today. > Not sure how to "write" music, but it's a start. > > Bill > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From radiotest at juno.com Sun Jun 26 07:59:10 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 08:59:10 -0400 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160626085702.03fc6d28@juno.com> At 11:15 PM 6/25/2016, Mark J. Blair wrote: >I seem to recall encountering two different pinouts of that connector in equipment that has passed through my hands. IIRC the ground lead may not be consistent. I have the non-HP-pinout 163 cords set aside, but I don't know how soon I will have a chance to check them as medical problems are slowing me down. Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 26 08:02:51 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:02:51 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100B For Sale, Manchester, UK In-Reply-To: <02e301d1b388$09ac8380$1d058a80$@ntlworld.com> References: <02e301d1b388$09ac8380$1d058a80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00f901d1cfab$0cb5e6e0$2621b4a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 21 May 2016 18:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: DEC Rainbow 100B For Sale, Manchester, UK > > I have a DEC Rainbow 100B in the upright pedestal for sale. It comes with > 128K of memory, a hard disk controller with hard disk cable, an RX50 drive > and the graphics option. It is just the base unit and the pedestal, there is no > keyboard, monitor or hard disk included. I collected this machine recently > and had to replace the shorted EMI filter on the input of the PSU with > something more modern, so it is a working machine. > > > > When I have been given a machine for free that I can't keep, then I give it > away. In this case, this one cost me money to buy and repair, so this time I > am selling it. I would much prefer collection as it is quite large. If I must ship it > then so be it, but it may take me a while to find a suitable box to ship it in, > and I may have to add that to the cost. > > > > Pictures here: > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=FC758A5A91B91301!5858 > AC9g74 > Lag3CoW5k&ithint=folder%2cjpg> > &authkey=!AC9g74Lag3CoW5k&ithint=folder%2cjpg > > > > Looking for offers. > This machine is once again available, because I decided I was not willing to ship it after all. Please do not ask me to ship it, this is collection only, although if you aren't too far away and will cover my fuel costs I can bring it to you. Remember, despite the photos, there is no keyboard, monitor or hard disk included. Pictures here: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=FC758A5A91B91301!5858&authkey=!AC9g74L ag3CoW5k&ithint=folder%2cjpg Regards Rob From chrise at pobox.com Sun Jun 26 08:11:47 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 08:11:47 -0500 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160626085702.03fc6d28@juno.com> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160626085702.03fc6d28@juno.com> Message-ID: <56A042DA-CDC1-49B0-A7AB-3061540D2178@pobox.com> There's a discussion of the '163'-type power cords here, http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html hot and neutral were swapped depending on which "standard" was followed but ground remained the same. Chris On June 26, 2016 7:59:10 AM CDT, "Dale H. Cook" wrote: >At 11:15 PM 6/25/2016, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >>I seem to recall encountering two different pinouts of that connector >in equipment that has passed through my hands. > >IIRC the ground lead may not be consistent. I have the non-HP-pinout >163 cords set aside, but I don't know how soon I will have a chance to >check them as medical problems are slowing me down. > >Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html -- Chris Elmquist From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 08:44:27 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 09:44:27 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? Message-ID: ate: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:43:16 -0400 > > From: Earl Baugh > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: CDC 6600 - Why so awesome? > > This thread reminded me that I recently got shipped what the person told me > was a CDC 6000 Central Memory core. > (it matches what's on this page : > http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/en/6400hwac.html ). He told me > that > the console looked like this : > http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/craytalk/sld031.htm > > Earl > The Computer Museum in Boston gave pieces of the CDC 6600 core to donors. I still have it. -- Michael Thompson From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jun 26 10:56:21 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 08:56:21 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2016-Jun-25, at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? > I have an S-100 chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jun 26 10:58:44 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 10:58:44 -0500 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <576FFBB4.9050405@cimmeri.com> On 6/26/2016 10:56 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Jun-25, at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? >> I have an S-100 chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. > Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. I'm not the original poster, but I also had an S-100 chassis with that power plug. I think it was a small California Computer System (CCS) model. - J. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 26 11:19:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 09:19:32 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <576FFBB4.9050405@cimmeri.com> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> <576FFBB4.9050405@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <57700094.2000108@sydex.com> I believe that Four Phase Systems also used the blasted things on their gear as well. --Chuck From julian at twinax.org Sun Jun 26 11:24:42 2016 From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 19:24:42 +0300 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000079197ca8$5ac7c7ed$9e260b8d$@twinax.org> From julian at twinax.org Sun Jun 26 11:24:46 2016 From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 19:24:46 +0300 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <0000cf58c114$de2ff580$fab4ad7a$@twinax.org> From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 12:01:52 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 10:01:52 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <576FFBB4.9050405@cimmeri.com> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> <576FFBB4.9050405@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <57700A80.1010101@gmail.com> On 6/26/16 8:58 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 6/26/2016 10:56 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2016-Jun-25, at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on >>> early test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? >>> I have an S-100 chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating >>> from 1982 or so. >> Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis >> from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it >> that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. > > I'm not the original poster, but I also had an S-100 chassis with that > power plug. I think it was a small California Computer System (CCS) > model. > > - J. > > Yep, that's exactly what I have -- it's a CCS 2200A. It's a nicely equipped system and it appears to be complete, with CCS CPU, 64K Memory, I/O and Floppy controller. It also has a Micro Diversions MicroAngelo video board and a Morrow winchester controller (which attaches to two 24mb SA4000 drives that might still work). Should be interesting to get running again. I've purchased a suitable power cable, thanks to all for pointing me in the right direction. - Josh From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 26 13:51:51 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 19:51:51 +0100 Subject: Dual Head Rainbow Video Message-ID: <011701d1cfdb$cde242c0$69a6c840$@ntlworld.com> Just in case anyone is interested, I have just posted a video on YouTube of my Rainbow 100+ (not the one I am selling) running in a dual head configuration. The quality of the video isn't great, but it might interest a few people. You can find it here: https://youtu.be/y4p9plwjRio Regards Rob From julian at twinax.org Sun Jun 26 11:27:53 2016 From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 19:27:53 +0300 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <00001afc2d19$b67ab59c$d5941a59$@twinax.org> From julian at twinax.org Sun Jun 26 11:27:58 2016 From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 19:27:58 +0300 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <00009c155a97$7127f26e$c286eb9c$@twinax.org> From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jun 26 14:16:39 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 12:16:39 -0700 Subject: VT52 oscillator Message-ID: <57702A17.2060603@fritzm.org> It seems the clock oscillator chip (E1, 13.824 Mhz) on my VT52 is flaking out. It has become very vibration sensitive. I tried reflowing its solder connections, but it has not seemed to help much... Anybody have a spare, or suggestions/advice for a replacement? There's certainly room enough in there to build and mount a small oscillator board if the old/original parts are too hard to find or are all similarly flaky with age at this point. Looking around on the web, the symptoms of the resulting failure mode seem pretty common (no scan, but a slight tap on the right side of the chassis will sometime restore, though I suppose that could be many other things as well!) cheers, --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jun 26 14:26:55 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 12:26:55 -0700 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui Message-ID: <57702C7F.5030503@fritzm.org> Hi folks, I've started to look into hooking up pdp11gui to my 11/45 w/ M9301. Does anybody here know how the console DL11 should be configured for this wrt. data bits, parity, stop-bits? I haven't seen this mentioned in the documentation or tutorials. thanks, --FritzM. From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Jun 26 15:29:02 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 13:29:02 -0700 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <57702C7F.5030503@fritzm.org> References: <57702C7F.5030503@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <04584f84-2fa1-f5dd-ffa8-6b4f765d98e0@alum.mit.edu> On 6/26/2016 12:26 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Hi folks, > > I've started to look into hooking up pdp11gui to my 11/45 w/ M9301. Does > anybody here know how the console DL11 should be configured for this wrt. data > bits, parity, stop-bits? I haven't seen this mentioned in the documentation > or tutorials. > > thanks, > --FritzM. > > Console DL11 configuration (baud, #data, #stop, parity) needs to match that of the PC (baud, #data,#stop,parity) that is running PDP11GUI, and vice versa. 9600-8N2 on each end would be a good place to start (fastest baud rate, 8b, no parity) as it is very common. Mostly PDP11GUI does not care, either 7b or 8b. Other characteristics (#stop, #parity, baud) need to match DL11 vs PC. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 15:47:46 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:47:46 -0400 Subject: Power cable identification References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <13607867B8F14250A8E4FD1937F051B4@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Power cable identification On 2016-Jun-25, at 8:09 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > What is the name of the rounded, 3-pin power connector often seen on early test equipment (I've seen it on older HP and Fluke stuff)? > I have an S-100 chassis that inexplicably uses one, despite dating from 1982 or so. Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. ============ Are you sure it was a Cromemco Z2? If so, it must have been a really old one; I've seen quite a few Z2s in my time and they all had/have modern IEC type line cord connectors. m From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jun 26 16:15:53 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:15:53 -0700 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <04584f84-2fa1-f5dd-ffa8-6b4f765d98e0@alum.mit.edu> References: <57702C7F.5030503@fritzm.org> <04584f84-2fa1-f5dd-ffa8-6b4f765d98e0@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57704609.4010304@fritzm.org> On 06/26/2016 01:29 PM, Don North wrote: > Console DL11 configuration (baud, #data, #stop, parity) needs to match > that of the PC (baud, #data,#stop,parity) that is running PDP11GUI, > and vice versa. 9600-8N2 on each end would be a good place to start > (fastest baud rate, 8b, no parity) as it is very common. > > Mostly PDP11GUI does not care, either 7b or 8b. Other characteristics > (#stop, #parity, baud) need to match DL11 vs PC. Right. So far I haven't seen any place in PDP11GUI to set anything other than port and baud rate, so I'm not sure what exactly its using for configuration on that end. I'll try 8N2 on the DL11 side as see what happens. My DL11 is 7E1 right now and the M9301 emulator works to my VT52, but I haven't had any luck yet getting PDP11GUI or a terminal emulator on my laptop to talk to it. I'm finding it somewhat ironic that I managed the entire 11/45 CPU and memory system debug without too much difficulty, and now I've been stuck on the damn RS-232 link for over a day :-) Time to give up and scope it I guess... --FritzM. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jun 26 16:48:21 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 17:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui Message-ID: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > So far I haven't seen any place in PDP11GUI to set anything other than > port and baud rate You might have to use native OS tools to do that. On Unix, that will be 'stty'; on Windows, you'd have to use native Windows tools to do that; if you go to the Device Manager, select your serial port, and click on 'Properties', it has a tab ('Port Settings') for that (or, should I say, it used to - not sure about the most recent versions, they're making it all smart-phone like for brain-dead lusers). > From: Don North > Mostly PDP11GUI does not care, either 7b or 8b. I'm kind of surprised to hear that; I assumed that PDP11GUI can download binaries, and for that, 8-bit is kind of necessary? Side-story: when I started bringing up my -11's, the first one I did was an -11/23. So I needed a way for my Windoze box to talk to the -11's console line, for ODT. I was too lazy to figure out how to use some existing software, so I decided to write some. I wanted to be able to use it (later) to talk to one -11 from another, and I didn't know how to do complex terminal hacking under Windoze anyway, so I decided to write it under Unix. V6, to be exact (I consider all later versions to be unholy perversions - well, V7 isn't too bad, I guess), running on Ersatz11 on the Windoze box. Later, I wanted to be able to load .LDA files, which are 8-bit binary. One problem. Native Unix V6 doesn't have the ability to output 8-bit binary over a serial line (or input it, for that matter). When I first started using V6 at MIT, the DSSR people had already totally re-written the TTY driver, and added that capability, so I never ran into this problem before. Also, the native V6 stty() call isn't very flexible, and there are no spare mode bits. So they'd added a new system call, ttymod() (sort of like ioctl(), but done before it), to control all their wonderful extensions. I decided not to replicate that, but rolled my own upwardly compatible extension to stty(), which adds all that extended semantics. From there, it wasn't too much work to get sending the absolute loader down the serial line in its original binary form (which means all the old console bootstraps work, too), and using that to load .LDA files. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 16:58:38 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 17:58:38 -0400 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 5:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > So far I haven't seen any place in PDP11GUI to set anything other > than > > port and baud rate > > You might have to use native OS tools to do that. On Unix, that will be > 'stty'; on Windows, you'd have to use native Windows tools to do that; if > you > go to the Device Manager, select your serial port, and click on > 'Properties', > it has a tab ('Port Settings') for that (or, should I say, it used to - not > sure about the most recent versions, they're making it all smart-phone like > for brain-dead lusers). > > My issue (M9312) has been that I can't get XXDP output to the screen, but I can run the CONSOLE and initiate comms to and from the computer using CONSOLE. When I run a XXDP routine I don't see anything to the screen so far, regardless of what switch setting I am using. Specifically http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings/1140_45/028_MAINDEC-11-DCQKC-D_D_1140_1145_INSTRUCTION_EXERCISER_Sep74.pdf CQKC Test Pages 18 - 61 and beyond provide switch registers and code to follow. b From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Jun 26 17:23:36 2016 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:23:36 -0400 Subject: Pictures from the GA warehouse, take 2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160626182336.3a329fad@verticle> Todd, what model are the HP terminals in IMG_4967 and 4968? They look like maybe 700/60s. Also the TI terminal in 4969 and 4970. TI 928? I might be able to take a pallet load or two if the price is right. jbdigriz On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:32:53 -0400 Todd Killingsworth wrote: > Ok gang - here's the 100+ pics from the warehouse: > > https://www.flickr.com/gp/144446985 at N04/b76872 > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 17:32:16 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:32:16 -0400 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: These settings work for a DL-11 M7800 9600b console serial port. Real Time option 540677 5008775B c29 open/out (not 110 baud) c31 open/out (not 100 baud) NP-U out (=no parity/disabled) 2SB-U out (2 Stop Bits) 2SB-U out (2 SB) EPS out (EPS=even parity when NP is jumrd) NB1/NB2 these two are set together both open = 8 databits. receive crystal 4 o'clock / pos 8 xmit crystal 4 o'clock / pos 8 4608 khz 9600 baud vector address jumper V V7 V6 V5 V4 V3 N 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 address jumpers A3 A4 A5 A6 A7 A8 A9 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 J1 J2 J3 1 0 1 On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 5:58 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 5:48 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > From: Fritz Mueller >> >> > So far I haven't seen any place in PDP11GUI to set anything other >> than >> > port and baud rate >> >> You might have to use native OS tools to do that. On Unix, that will be >> 'stty'; on Windows, you'd have to use native Windows tools to do that; if >> you >> go to the Device Manager, select your serial port, and click on >> 'Properties', >> it has a tab ('Port Settings') for that (or, should I say, it used to - >> not >> sure about the most recent versions, they're making it all smart-phone >> like >> for brain-dead lusers). >> >> > My issue (M9312) has been that I can't get XXDP output to the screen, but > I can run the CONSOLE and initiate comms to and from the computer using > CONSOLE. When I run a XXDP routine I don't see anything to the screen so > far, regardless of what switch setting I am using. > > Specifically > > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings/1140_45/028_MAINDEC-11-DCQKC-D_D_1140_1145_INSTRUCTION_EXERCISER_Sep74.pdf > > CQKC Test > > Pages 18 - 61 and beyond provide switch registers and code to follow. > > b > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Jun 26 20:39:42 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:39:42 -0700 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5f82b1e8-801b-ec16-7754-9a74dfefb12c@alum.mit.edu> On 6/26/2016 2:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > So far I haven't seen any place in PDP11GUI to set anything other than > > port and baud rate > > You might have to use native OS tools to do that. On Unix, that will be > 'stty'; on Windows, you'd have to use native Windows tools to do that; if you > go to the Device Manager, select your serial port, and click on 'Properties', > it has a tab ('Port Settings') for that (or, should I say, it used to - not > sure about the most recent versions, they're making it all smart-phone like > for brain-dead lusers). > > > > From: Don North > > > Mostly PDP11GUI does not care, either 7b or 8b. > > I'm kind of surprised to hear that; I assumed that PDP11GUI can download > binaries, and for that, 8-bit is kind of necessary? PDP11GUI reads papertape files as 8b binary, but on download translates the output to console deposit commands, which are just 7b printable ascii; ie 'D 0' to send a binary 0x00 to the target system. So no 8b required here. The PDP11GUI serial driver does binary block transfers as base64 uuencoded streams, which are also just plain ascii 7b text: ; high speed buffer access over serial port 0 ; ; Compression: ; like uuencode / base64 ; Each serial char defines 6 bits, char is in range 0x20 .. 0x5f ; 8 chars defines 3 words ; Char # : <.0..> <..1..> <..2..> <.3..> <.4..> <..5..> <..6..> <.7..> ; Char Bits : 543210 54 3210 5432 10 543210 543210 54 3210 5432 10 543210 ; bytes : 765432 10 7654 3210 76 543210 765432 10 7654 3210 76 543210 ; byte # : <...0...> <...1...> <...2...> <..3....> <...4...> <...5...> ; word # : <...msb0....lsb0..> <...msb1....lsb1..> <..msb2.....lsb2..> From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jun 26 22:11:53 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 20:11:53 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <13607867B8F14250A8E4FD1937F051B4@310e2> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> <13607867B8F14250A8E4FD1937F051B4@310e2> Message-ID: On 2016-Jun-26, at 1:47 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brent Hilpert" > ... > Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. > > ============ > > Are you sure it was a Cromemco Z2? If so, it must have been a really old one; I've seen quite a few Z2s in my time and they all had/have modern IEC type line cord connectors. Yup, this: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/CromemcoZ2A.jpg IC date codes on boards were 77 to 78. Presumably bought as a package as it had Cromemco ZPU, TUART, 4FDC & 16KZ boards. I replaced the 163 connector with an IEC. As a matter of fact here's an example with the 163 connector: http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/cromemco/photos/cromemco%20z2/Cromemco%20Z2%20back.JPG From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 26 22:30:40 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 21:30:40 -0600 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: <6F88F83A-89A8-42C3-9D02-3BD1F22F0DC1@bsdimp.com> References: <6F88F83A-89A8-42C3-9D02-3BD1F22F0DC1@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: On 6/25/2016 9:06 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > >> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: >> >>>> and BSD is better on servers. >>> *Ridiculously* contentious. I'm seeing and hearing of little _real_ >>> adoption. > > Netflix streams 39% of peak US internet traffic[*] from FreeBSD servers. > At the high end, we?re even able to do about 85G of https (encrypted) > traffic on a single socket server off NVMe drives, and would do more > but we?re DRAM memory bandwidth limited. > > Netflix OCA network has thousands of machines streaming tens of > terabits per second for hours at a time at peak located in dozens of > countries in hundreds of data centers worldwide. I can?t disclose exact > numbers, but I?d call that real. > > Warner and 1% of that reaches CANADA. Ben grumbling why 90% of netfuck movies never get past 25% mark here. I wonder how much the internet bandwith is use for stupid ADS on text only pages? Bye ,... thunder storm From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jun 26 22:36:03 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 22:36:03 -0500 Subject: Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label? In-Reply-To: References: <6F88F83A-89A8-42C3-9D02-3BD1F22F0DC1@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <000001d1d025$082e1460$188a3d20$@classiccmp.org> This thread has gone far off-topic. Let's focus on classic computing. J From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 00:11:17 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 00:11:17 -0500 Subject: pdp 11? Message-ID: friend found this now opening channels to rescue it its an 11 of some sort not sure witch one https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13528577_10154158749830056_6453066395005995961_o.jpg anyone know what a dliiw s/w is? https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0- 8/13528577_10154158749830056_6453066395005995961_o.jpg see if i can rescue it maybe all of it From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 00:23:49 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 22:23:49 -0700 Subject: pdp 11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5770B865.6070204@gmail.com> The DL11-W is a UNIBUS serial line + real-time clock. - Josh On 6/26/16 10:11 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > friend found this now opening channels to rescue it > > its an 11 of some sort not sure witch one > > https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13528577_10154158749830056_6453066395005995961_o.jpg > > anyone know what a dliiw s/w is? > https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0- > 8/13528577_10154158749830056_6453066395005995961_o.jpg > > see if i can rescue it maybe all of it > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 02:28:40 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 00:28:40 -0700 Subject: "Key" to open an HP 264X terminal Message-ID: <00b701d1d045$87560f20$96022d60$@gmail.com> Questions for our HP specialists. I can't open the case of the HP 264x terminals I just got. I see from the manual there is a small slot on the side in which you have to insert a "key". Is the key just a small blade tool or does it have to be more special shape than that? Marc From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jun 27 02:51:14 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:51:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: "Key" to open an HP 264X terminal In-Reply-To: <00b701d1d045$87560f20$96022d60$@gmail.com> References: <00b701d1d045$87560f20$96022d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2016, CuriousMarc wrote: > side in which you have to insert a "key". Is the key just a small blade tool > or does it have to be more special shape than that? Yepp, it's just a small blade; you could use a strong paper clip or a small blade screwdriver instead. Christian From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jun 27 03:14:58 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 01:14:58 -0700 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <5f82b1e8-801b-ec16-7754-9a74dfefb12c@alum.mit.edu> References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5f82b1e8-801b-ec16-7754-9a74dfefb12c@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5770E082.8050708@fritzm.org> Okay, so I scoped the serial line, and the EIA line drivers seemed to be acting funny, mark voltage was way to high, etc. So checked power, and looks like I have a -15V distribution issue to the SPC slots on my backplane. Moved the DL11 over to my DD11 expansion where I already debugged -15V to get MOS memory working and then everything was fine... Somehow the VT52 could still make sense out of the wacky transmit voltages, but my MacBook certainly could not. Anyway, after this I was able to run pdp11gui under wine on the MacBook and successfully connect to and interact with the 11/45. --FritzM. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jun 27 07:24:59 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 08:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: pdp 11? Message-ID: <20160627122459.B984518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adrian Stoness > friend found this now opening channels to rescue it > its an 11 of some sort not sure witch one ??? Both URL's are the same picture - an envelope on the floor? Noel From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 07:28:17 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 07:28:17 -0500 Subject: pdp 11? In-Reply-To: <20160627122459.B984518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160627122459.B984518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: woops here https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13528563_10154158749825056_5125938316429319662_o.jpg On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Adrian Stoness > > > friend found this now opening channels to rescue it > > its an 11 of some sort not sure witch one > > ??? Both URL's are the same picture - an envelope on the floor? > > Noel > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 27 07:34:05 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 08:34:05 -0400 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <5770E082.8050708@fritzm.org> References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5f82b1e8-801b-ec16-7754-9a74dfefb12c@alum.mit.edu> <5770E082.8050708@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 27, 2016, at 4:14 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > Okay, so I scoped the serial line, and the EIA line drivers seemed to be acting funny, mark voltage was way to high, etc.... > Somehow the VT52 could still make sense out of the wacky transmit voltages, but my MacBook certainly could not. How high was "too high"? The RS232 standard rules for allowed output voltages are surprisingly lenient (3 to 15 volts, positive or negative for space and mark respectively). But it wouldn't surprise me if modern "RS232" implementations didn't follow the spec accurately and get confused by the high end of the valid range. paul From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 07:42:55 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:42:55 +0200 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <003201d1ce3b$83780bd0$8a682370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 24 June 2016 at 19:30, Swift Griggs wrote: > It's amazing how much stuff UPS had managed to destroy "for" me, also. > It's like them drop the boxes off a crane or something. Sounds to me -- as a foreigner, mind -- that there's the basis for a small business here: continental-North-America guaranteed custom fragile item delivery. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 07:51:34 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 08:51:34 -0400 Subject: pdp 11? In-Reply-To: References: <20160627122459.B984518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: where is this? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 27 07:58:41 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 07:58:41 -0500 Subject: "Key" to open an HP 264X terminal In-Reply-To: References: <00b701d1d045$87560f20$96022d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901d1d073$a16c49a0$e444dce0$@classiccmp.org> At least for all of mine, a paperclip wouldn't do it - not strong enough. Small flat blade screwdriver will work. As I recall, it's just to slide a metal catch one direction or the other. J From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 07:59:40 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 07:59:40 -0500 Subject: "Key" to open an HP 264X terminal In-Reply-To: <000901d1d073$a16c49a0$e444dce0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00b701d1d045$87560f20$96022d60$@gmail.com> <000901d1d073$a16c49a0$e444dce0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Lock pick kits are only 20 bucks... On Jun 27, 2016 7:58 AM, "Jay West" wrote: > At least for all of mine, a paperclip wouldn't do it - not strong enough. > Small flat blade screwdriver will work. As I recall, it's just to slide a > metal catch one direction or the other. > > J > > > From turing at shaw.ca Mon Jun 27 08:17:45 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 07:17:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Key" to open an HP 264X terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1593140716.15649591.1467033465041.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> A knife will also work; I've still got my 'key' from when I used to work with HP1000 systems, and it's simply a flat piece of metal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 5:59:40 AM Subject: RE: "Key" to open an HP 264X terminal Lock pick kits are only 20 bucks... On Jun 27, 2016 7:58 AM, "Jay West" wrote: > At least for all of mine, a paperclip wouldn't do it - not strong enough. > Small flat blade screwdriver will work. As I recall, it's just to slide a > metal catch one direction or the other. > > J > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 27 08:24:16 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 15:24:16 +0200 Subject: Dual Head Rainbow Video In-Reply-To: <011701d1cfdb$cde242c0$69a6c840$@ntlworld.com> References: <011701d1cfdb$cde242c0$69a6c840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160627132415.GH7239@Update.UU.SE> Cool, what is required for that setup? /P On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 07:51:51PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Just in case anyone is interested, I have just posted a video on YouTube of > my Rainbow 100+ (not the one I am selling) running in a dual head > configuration. The quality of the video isn't great, but it might interest a > few people. > > > > You can find it here: https://youtu.be/y4p9plwjRio > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jun 27 08:37:08 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: pdp 11? Message-ID: <20160627133708.7D2D218C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adrian Stoness >> its an 11 of some sort not sure witch one Ah, OK. That's either an -11/04 or -11/34 in the top left corner, with either an RX01 or RX02 above it. (Not enought detail in the image to say.) The rest of it seems to all be some sort of custom medical or other specialized hardware. (The /04 and /34 are very similar - the only difference is which processor card(s) is/are plugged in - you can convert most -11/04's [it depends on the specific backplane in use] to -11/34's by pulling the M7263 KD11-D -11/04 processor card, and plugging in instead the M8265 & M8266 KD11-EA -11/34A processor cards, which still seem to be relatively prevalent.) Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 08:41:38 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:41:38 -0400 Subject: Dual Head Rainbow Video In-Reply-To: <20160627132415.GH7239@Update.UU.SE> References: <011701d1cfdb$cde242c0$69a6c840$@ntlworld.com> <20160627132415.GH7239@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Cool, what is required for that setup? > > /P > > On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 07:51:51PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Just in case anyone is interested, I have just posted a video on YouTube > of > > my Rainbow 100+ (not the one I am selling) running in a dual head > > configuration. The quality of the video isn't great, but it might > interest a > > few people. > > > > > > > > You can find it here: https://youtu.be/y4p9plwjRio > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > Can you post photos the rear ports and how the monitors are set up in the back of the unit? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From aswood at t-online.de Mon Jun 27 09:04:14 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 16:04:14 +0200 (MEST) Subject: AW: pdp 11? In-Reply-To: References: <20160627122459.B984518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1467036254274.733479.a3c4859fef4886c04be201391e2b024a3776293c@spica.telekom.de> Look at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/vincent-photography/ He signs his fotographs like https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13528563_10154158749825056_5125938316429319662_o.jpg -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: pdp 11? Datum: 2016-06-27T14:52:35+0200 Von: "william degnan" An: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" where is this? ? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 09:14:21 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:14:21 -0500 Subject: pdp 11? In-Reply-To: References: <20160627122459.B984518C0BB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Mothballed cement plant On Jun 27, 2016 7:52 AM, "william degnan" wrote: > where is this? > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 27 09:20:40 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 07:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <003201d1ce3b$83780bd0$8a682370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > Sounds to me -- as a foreigner, mind -- that there's the basis for a > small business here: continental-North-America guaranteed custom > fragile item delivery. . . . and your ads should have a picture of a trebuchet with a red circle around it and diagonal line through it. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jun 27 09:30:06 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 10:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201606271430.KAA25709@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Mostly PDP11GUI does not care, either 7b or 8b. > I'm kind of surprised to hear that; I assumed that PDP11GUI can > download binaries, and for that, 8-bit is kind of necessary? Depends on the protocol. While it's not a PDP-11, my own Dreamcast serial-line code sends binaries over a serial line as hex. It doubles the octet count sent (for the data - there's some other overhead too) but requiring nothing beyond plain text of the comm channel. I'm sure there are plenty of other serial-line protocols that encode more compactly; if you use the 95 printable ASCII characters (space through tilde), you can pack 32 bits of binary into 5 characters with less than one bit of spare space; you can even reserve 10 characters for other purposes (eg, framing) and still pack 32 bits of binary into 5 characters. About the most compact packing I see is 32 binary octets into 39 base-95 values. In theory it's possible to do better, but not much, and even this much is not convenient to do. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 09:55:50 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 10:55:50 -0400 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: old friend is slimming down the warehouse) Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Rather have a C Itoh CT-101e .. I can probably help with that. I'm in Ohio and I get out to Chicago and NJ a couple of times a year. I have a cabinet of CiTOH terminals I bought from my employer "some years ago". ;-) We used an assortment of DEC VT10x, VT220, CiTOH 101 and CiTOH 101e terminals. ISTR the CiTOHs were as much as $800 cheaper than DEC terminals at the time. They were robust and at one point, I pulled out of the manuals the magic escape sequence to "switch sessions" and use the local printer port as a second comms line (we just had to bang out a custom DB25 adapter since the entire company was standardized on Nevada Western 6p6c modular serial and we didn't have a box of the right adapters for the printer port). It was awesome having two live lines in front of our usual switchbox setup for connecting to multiple hosts. > ... knew one of the developers Neat! > F/W was done in the US I can no longer remember the key combination but the > terminal would let you know who did it That would be fun to look up. > Anyone wants to gain a cubic foot or two let me know You got it! -ethan From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jun 27 10:59:08 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 08:59:08 -0700 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5f82b1e8-801b-ec16-7754-9a74dfefb12c@alum.mit.edu> <5770E082.8050708@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <57714D4C.8030000@fritzm.org> On 06/27/2016 05:34 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > How high was "too high"? The RS232 standard rules for allowed output > voltages are surprisingly lenient (3 to 15 volts, positive or negative > for space and mark respectively). Mark (not space) was around +3V, ha :-) I have no idea how the VT52 was making sense of that, but it was, quite reliably. --FritzM. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 27 11:22:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:22:14 -0700 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: old friend is slimming down the warehouse) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <577152B6.8010903@sydex.com> We used C Itoh terminals on our VAX back in the day. I think they were the CIT 102s--at any rate, they had a 14" screen rather than a 12" one. IIRC, they worked just fine; well-constructed units. --Chuck From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jun 27 11:12:29 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:12:29 -0700 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: old friend is slimming down the warehouse) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pity you don't go West as well, I'm in Portland Oregon but maybe something could be worked out. When not in a rush I've been able to arrange back seat/trunk shipments. Sounds like the same. I was at company called Tektronix and I was the one to introduce the CIT-101. We bought a lot of DEC gear, and even shipped a product with a rebranded PDP11/40, at one time were one of DEC's largest buyers of PDP's. One would think that would get us a good discount. One day the VT-101 started to die, at the same time I needed some DL11W's, so I added the VT100 to the request for quote. The discount on the VT was something like $25, basically nothing. And then out of nowhere, I get a letter from a friend who had gone to work for a small contract engineering company and he tells me he's been working on the firmware for VT100 clone. Anyway not long after that I had a loaner from C Itoh, and arranged a demo. I requested a quote for 25 CIT-101's and can't remember but damn close to 1/2 of what DEC was charging for theirs. When DEC found out they were not very happy. BTW Technical Magic was formed to make Video Games. On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: >> Rather have a C Itoh CT-101e .. > > I can probably help with that. I'm in Ohio and I get out to Chicago > and NJ a couple of times a year. I have a cabinet of CiTOH terminals > I bought from my employer "some years ago". ;-) We used an > assortment of DEC VT10x, VT220, CiTOH 101 and CiTOH 101e terminals. > ISTR the CiTOHs were as much as $800 cheaper than DEC terminals at the > time. They were robust and at one point, I pulled out of the manuals > the magic escape sequence to "switch sessions" and use the local > printer port as a second comms line (we just had to bang out a custom > DB25 adapter since the entire company was standardized on Nevada > Western 6p6c modular serial and we didn't have a box of the right > adapters for the printer port). It was awesome having two live lines > in front of our usual switchbox setup for connecting to multiple > hosts. > >> ... knew one of the developers > > Neat! > >> F/W was done in the US I can no longer remember the key combination but the >> terminal would let you know who did it > > That would be fun to look up. > >> Anyone wants to gain a cubic foot or two let me know > > You got it! > > -ethan > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 12:21:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:21:23 -0400 Subject: wanted: TI Silent 700 Model 763 & 765 Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have that? > > The manual for Model 743 & 745 is on Bitsavers, but I'm specifically > looking for model 763 & 765. > I checked, I have the 70x era manuals only. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 27 13:06:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:06:15 -0700 Subject: wanted: TI Silent 700 Model 763 & 765 Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d4deaa9-9d9e-ca89-b505-f9f0db156f6c@bitsavers.org> the later manuals are tough to find. I've been looking since the last time someone asked about them a year or two ago On 6/27/16 10:21 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Does anyone have that? >> >> The manual for Model 743 & 745 is on Bitsavers, but I'm specifically >> looking for model 763 & 765. >> > > I checked, I have the 70x era manuals only. > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 27 13:18:14 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:18:14 -0500 Subject: wanted: TI Silent 700 Model 763 & 765 Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: <9d4deaa9-9d9e-ca89-b505-f9f0db156f6c@bitsavers.org> References: <9d4deaa9-9d9e-ca89-b505-f9f0db156f6c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001601d1d0a0$4588c0f0$d09a42d0$@classiccmp.org> I believe mine is a 785... Oh the blasphemy..... -> http://tinyurl.com/gqs6adg (that's actually my HP 7906 cabinet, HP 2000 IOP rack, Silent 700, HP 2648 and CE handbook. Not my Commodore phone) J From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 13:58:41 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:58:41 -0600 (MDT) Subject: wanted: TI Silent 700 Model 763 & 765 Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: <9d4deaa9-9d9e-ca89-b505-f9f0db156f6c@bitsavers.org> References: <9d4deaa9-9d9e-ca89-b505-f9f0db156f6c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > the later manuals are tough to find. I've been looking since the last > time someone asked about them a year or two ago Those things are neat. They appear to be a paper terminal using thermal paper and an acoustic coupler. Wargames comes to mind of course. Then there was the pathetic scene in Hackers. Given Hackers came out in 1995, they should have been using an HST Courier, instead. However, I guess that doesn't have the cache' of a coupler to the masses who probably saw Wargames and forever will now associate couplers with 37337 Hx0x0xrz. -Swift From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 14:02:07 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 15:02:07 -0400 Subject: Power cable identification References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> <13607867B8F14250A8E4FD1937F051B4@310e2> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 11:11 PM Subject: Re: Power cable identification On 2016-Jun-26, at 1:47 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brent Hilpert" > ... > Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. > > ============ > > Are you sure it was a Cromemco Z2? If so, it must have been a really old one; I've seen quite a few Z2s in my time and they all had/have modern IEC type line cord connectors. Yup, this: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/CromemcoZ2A.jpg IC date codes on boards were 77 to 78. Presumably bought as a package as it had Cromemco ZPU, TUART, 4FDC & 16KZ boards. I replaced the 163 connector with an IEC. As a matter of fact here's an example with the 163 connector: http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/cromemco/photos/cromemco%20z2/Cromemco%20Z2%20back.JPG =============================================================== Yup, indeed definitely a 163 in Marcus' picture; my time selling and supporting Cromemcos starts in 1980 and by then all models including the Z2 had IEC connectors. As a matter of fact, from the copyright notice it looks like the Z2 rear panel and P/S were changed in 1979: https://goo.gl/photos/LmdwwKb6uPcpWzuf7 m From drb at msu.edu Mon Jun 27 14:12:46 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 15:12:46 -0400 Subject: Power cable identification References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> <13607867B8F14250A8E4FD1937F051B4@310e2> Message-ID: <20160627191246.EDA22A58584@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis > from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it > that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. Are the inlet connectors in question simple connectors, or are they part of an RFI filter assembly? Pretty sure we had to have RFI filters on Century disk drives field replaced in the mid 80s that still had the 163 style connectors. (Ok, they _were_ replacing them due to fire hazard, as I recall. :) De From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 14:20:47 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 21:20:47 +0200 Subject: More things that we are considering offloading. Message-ID: DECprinter I, GE TermiNET30, C Itoh CIT-101e, PDP-11 manuals, PDP-8 diagnostic duplicates, TI SilentWriters etc etc. http://www.datormuseum.se/available /Mattis From isking at uw.edu Mon Jun 27 14:41:28 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:41:28 -0700 Subject: More things that we are considering offloading. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So far away.... (Pacific Northwest, United States) On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > DECprinter I, GE TermiNET30, C Itoh CIT-101e, PDP-11 manuals, PDP-8 > diagnostic duplicates, TI SilentWriters etc etc. > > http://www.datormuseum.se/available > > /Mattis > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 14:34:42 2016 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:34:42 +0100 Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201606271430.KAA25709@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <00a601d1d0ac$a0222680$7ef50c0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 3:30 PM Subject: Re: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui > >> Mostly PDP11GUI does not care, either 7b or 8b. > > I'm kind of surprised to hear that; I assumed that PDP11GUI can > > download binaries, and for that, 8-bit is kind of necessary? > > Depends on the protocol. While it's not a PDP-11, my own Dreamcast > serial-line code sends binaries over a serial line as hex. It doubles > the octet count sent (for the data - there's some other overhead too) > but requiring nothing beyond plain text of the comm channel. > I have to ask, being a Sega fan, but what have you been using your Dreamcast for? Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jun 27 15:00:00 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 16:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <00a601d1d0ac$a0222680$7ef50c0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <20160626214821.48B3418C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201606271430.KAA25709@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <00a601d1d0ac$a0222680$7ef50c0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <201606272000.QAA15481@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] my own Dreamcast serial-line code [...] > I have to ask, being a Sega fan, but what have you been using your > Dreamcast for? Not much, yet. Aside from assorted poking at it to learn how to use the hardware, the only thing I really feel I can be said to have used it for was when I built a program for it that let another host, on the same Ethernet segment, use the controller(s) connected to the DC. In my Copious Spare Time, I would like to build a game for it, probably meaning also building a game engine, at least a rudimentary one. But that is waiting on my finding a supply of round tuits. If you have git set up, and are curious enough to bother, clone git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/dreamcast and poke around. rem.s is (the Dreamcast end of) the aforementioned "remote controller" code. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 27 15:08:13 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:08:13 -0700 Subject: Power cable identification In-Reply-To: <20160627191246.EDA22A58584@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> <13607867B8F14250A8E4FD1937F051B4@310e2> <20160627191246.EDA22A58584@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <02E9186D-97CD-48C3-BBAF-E439F8A04C92@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Jun-27, at 12:12 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis >> from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it >> that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. > > Are the inlet connectors in question simple connectors, or are they part > of an RFI filter assembly? Pretty sure we had to have RFI filters on > Century disk drives field replaced in the mid 80s that still had the 163 > style connectors. (Ok, they _were_ replacing them due to fire hazard, > as I recall. :) It was >15 years ago, but as best as I recall the one I replaced on a Z2 was a simple connector, no filter. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 15:14:02 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:14:02 -0700 Subject: Dual Head Rainbow Video In-Reply-To: <011701d1cfdb$cde242c0$69a6c840$@ntlworld.com> References: <011701d1cfdb$cde242c0$69a6c840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Just in case anyone is interested, I have just posted a video on YouTube of > my Rainbow 100+ (not the one I am selling) running in a dual head > configuration. The quality of the video isn't great, but it might interest a > few people. > Somewhat on the subject, anyone in the US have any BCC03-6 cables in decent condition that they don't need? Looking for one to used for hooking up a VR241. The only ones I've seen on eBay recently are these, which look like they might have some unpleasant corrosion: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370986547444 From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 15:38:29 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 22:38:29 +0200 Subject: More things that we are considering offloading. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-06-27 21:41 GMT+02:00 Ian S. King : > So far away.... (Pacific Northwest, United States) > That is right. Forgot to mention that everything is outside Str?ngn?s in Sweden. /Mattis > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > > > DECprinter I, GE TermiNET30, C Itoh CIT-101e, PDP-11 manuals, PDP-8 > > diagnostic duplicates, TI SilentWriters etc etc. > > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/available > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jun 27 15:47:52 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:47:52 -0700 Subject: PDP11GUI under Wine on Linux -- extra backslash? Message-ID: <577190F8.90306@fritzm.org> So, I am trying to run PDP11GUI under Wine on Linux, and I am having problems loading a machine description file. It seems when PDP11GUI tries to kick off M4, it is expanding an extra backslash into the command. So you get this sort of error message (note extra backslash before m4.bat): Can't recognize 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Joerg Hoppe\PDP11GUI\\m4.bat" "C:\users\Public\Application Data\PDP11GUI\machines\pdp11.ini" "C:\users\fritzm\Temp\tmp_pdp11gui_m4_out.ini' as an internal or external command, or batch script. I've verified that I can run m4.bat sucessfully manually if I set the appropriate env vars first. But this doesn't help because it seems like PDP11GUI deletes the file and then (fails to) regenerate it on each run :-( Anybody else run in to this or have a suggestion for a workaround? thanks much! --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jun 27 15:49:47 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:49:47 -0700 Subject: PDP11GUI under Wine on Linux -- extra backslash? In-Reply-To: <577190F8.90306@fritzm.org> References: <577190F8.90306@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <5771916B.3050501@fritzm.org> Oh, the quoting in the error message also looks suspicious. Hmm... On 06/27/2016 01:47 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > So, I am trying to run PDP11GUI under Wine on Linux, and I am having > problems loading a machine description file. It seems when PDP11GUI > tries to kick off M4, it is expanding an extra backslash into the > command. So you get this sort of error message (note extra backslash > before m4.bat): > > Can't recognize 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Joerg Hoppe\PDP11GUI\\m4.bat" > "C:\users\Public\Application Data\PDP11GUI\machines\pdp11.ini" > "C:\users\fritzm\Temp\tmp_pdp11gui_m4_out.ini' as an internal or > external command, or batch script. > > I've verified that I can run m4.bat sucessfully manually if I set the > appropriate env vars first. But this doesn't help because it seems > like PDP11GUI deletes the file and then (fails to) regenerate it on > each run :-( > > Anybody else run in to this or have a suggestion for a workaround? > > thanks much! > --FritzM. > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Jun 27 15:51:54 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 16:51:54 -0400 Subject: More things that we are considering offloading. Message-ID: <6a0f62.1cd53c4e.44a2ebe9@aol.com> if it was close I would jump on that terminet 30! Ed# In a message dated 6/27/2016 1:38:34 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mattislind at gmail.com writes: 2016-06-27 21:41 GMT+02:00 Ian S. King : > So far away.... (Pacific Northwest, United States) > That is right. Forgot to mention that everything is outside Str?ngn?s in Sweden. /Mattis > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > > > DECprinter I, GE TermiNET30, C Itoh CIT-101e, PDP-11 manuals, PDP-8 > > diagnostic duplicates, TI SilentWriters etc etc. > > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/available > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 27 16:23:56 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 22:23:56 +0100 Subject: Dual Head Rainbow Video In-Reply-To: <20160627132415.GH7239@Update.UU.SE> References: <011701d1cfdb$cde242c0$69a6c840$@ntlworld.com> <20160627132415.GH7239@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <017f01d1d0ba$3648f320$a2dad960$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus > Pihlgren > Sent: 27 June 2016 14:24 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Dual Head Rainbow Video > > > Cool, what is required for that setup? > > /P The machine came to me with a handmade split cable. I will work out the pin out and post it. You need a BCC17 cable for the VR241 (BCC03 doesn't work in this configuration). Regards Rob From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 16:39:03 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 09:39:03 +1200 Subject: More things that we are considering offloading. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh I have a huge weakness for printing terminals. Absent an IBM 1052 I'd definitely be interested in TermiNET and SilentWriters. Oh and the Informer 213! Contact me off-list please. Mike On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:20 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > DECprinter I, GE TermiNET30, C Itoh CIT-101e, PDP-11 manuals, PDP-8 > diagnostic duplicates, TI SilentWriters etc etc. > > http://www.datormuseum.se/available > > /Mattis -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 27 18:07:02 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 16:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <201606272000.QAA15481@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse at "Jun 27, 16 04:00:00 pm" Message-ID: <201606272307.u5RN72sC3342354@floodgap.com> > >> [...] my own Dreamcast serial-line code [...] > > I have to ask, being a Sega fan, but what have you been using your > > Dreamcast for? > > Not much, yet. I've been resurrecting the old Dreamcast Linux. It's still an appallingly old kernel but it boots happily and does things that, depending on your point of view, can be considered useful. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- They make a desert and call it peace. -- Tacitus --------------------------- From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jun 27 18:22:37 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 16:22:37 -0700 Subject: PDP11GUI under Wine on Linux -- extra backslash? In-Reply-To: <5771916B.3050501@fritzm.org> References: <577190F8.90306@fritzm.org> <5771916B.3050501@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <5771B53D.1060807@fritzm.org> On 06/27/2016 01:47 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > I am trying to run PDP11GUI under Wine on Linux, and I am having > problems... So, I gave up, bought a copy of Windows, installed it on a VM and now it works fine. Between this and various CAD tools, etc, tired of fighting with endless fiddly Wine compatibility problems... From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 19:53:48 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:53:48 -0400 Subject: Power cable identification References: <576F474C.4080905@gmail.com> <13607867B8F14250A8E4FD1937F051B4@310e2> <20160627191246.EDA22A58584@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <02E9186D-97CD-48C3-BBAF-E439F8A04C92@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <35B75D737F6B4D94BF4384204AB18405@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 4:08 PM Subject: Re: Power cable identification On 2016-Jun-27, at 12:12 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> Is it a Cromemco? Inexplicable is right. The Cromemco Z2 S100 chassis >> from 1978 used them, I don't know what they were thinking using it >> that late, unless they got a deal on a mass clearout. > > Are the inlet connectors in question simple connectors, or are they part > of an RFI filter assembly? Pretty sure we had to have RFI filters on > Century disk drives field replaced in the mid 80s that still had the 163 > style connectors. (Ok, they _were_ replacing them due to fire hazard, > as I recall. :) It was >15 years ago, but as best as I recall the one I replaced on a Z2 was a simple connector, no filter. ================================================================ FWIW the IEC versions were slightly oversized integrated filters. From spc at conman.org Mon Jun 27 20:35:58 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 21:35:58 -0400 Subject: Some questions about the MC6839 Message-ID: <20160628013557.GJ29728@brevard.conman.org> (My original message to cctech has yet to appear. I thought I might try the cctalk list). While Motorola never shipped the MC6839 [1] the binary is available [2] and I've been playing around with it [3]. While it's not producing the exact same results as I get on a more modern machine, it appears to be "close enough" for me to be happy with it. But I am having one issue that I can't figure out. The documentation for the FMOV operation says: FMOV Move (or convert) arg1 -> arg2. This function is useful for changing precisions (e.g. single to double) with full exception processing for possible overflow and underflow. Okay. And to call it [4]: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Function|Opcode| Register entry conditions | Stack entry conditions ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | FMOV | $1A | U = precision parameter word| push arg | | | Y -> argument | push precision param word | | | D -> fpcb | push ptr to fpcb | | | X -> result | call FPO9 | | | | pull result ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For moves, U contains a parameter word describing the size of the source and destination arguments. The bits are as follows, where the size is as defined in the fpcb control byte Bits 0-2 : Destination size Bits 3-7 : unused Bits 8-10 : Source size Bits 11-15: unused And the size bits are defined as: 111 = reserved 110 = reserved 101 = reserved 100 = extended - round result to double 011 = extended - round result to single 010 = extended - no forced rounding 001 = double 000 = single It appears that to convert from single to double, I would set U to $0001, but the results are *so* far out of whack it's not even funny. I've tried setting U to point to the value $0001 and that doesn't work. I've tried shifting the bits (because in the FPCB they're the upper three bits) and that doesn't work. I've tried reversing the registers and that doesn't work. Does anyone have the actual source code [4]? Or know what I might be doing wrong? -spc [1] A ROM with position independent 6809 object code that conforms (to what I can find) with IEEE 754 Draft 8. [2] Available in the file fpo9.lzh here https://ftplike.com/browser/os9archive.rtsi.com/OS9/OS9_6X09/PROG/ [3] Using a 6809 emulator library I wrote: https://github.com/spc476/mc6809 Not much documentation I'm afraid. [4] Register entry: ROM base address + $003D Stack entry: ROM base address + $003F [5] I'm lead to believe that Motorola release the code into the public domain. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jun 27 22:20:30 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 23:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <201606272307.u5RN72sC3342354@floodgap.com> References: <201606272307.u5RN72sC3342354@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201606280320.XAA17201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [W]hat have you been using your Dreamcast for? >> Not much, yet. > I've been resurrecting the old Dreamcast Linux. [...] Oh, I have NetBSD/dreamcast. It boots and runs. But it doesn't provide any glue to the rendering hardware, making it pretty useless (or, at best, irrelevant) for games. And, since the thing has no disk of its own, it has to run diskless, or at best out of a ramdisk (the closest thing it has to a disk is the CD). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 27 22:35:17 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dreamcast Un*ces was Re: DL11 configuration for pdp11gui In-Reply-To: <201606280320.XAA17201@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse at "Jun 27, 16 11:20:30 pm" Message-ID: <201606280335.u5S3ZHn349808296@floodgap.com> > >>> [W]hat have you been using your Dreamcast for? > >> Not much, yet. > > I've been resurrecting the old Dreamcast Linux. [...] > > Oh, I have NetBSD/dreamcast. It boots and runs. But it doesn't > provide any glue to the rendering hardware, making it pretty useless > (or, at best, irrelevant) for games. And, since the thing has no disk > of its own, it has to run diskless, or at best out of a ramdisk (the > closest thing it has to a disk is the CD). I don't know if the NetBSD disc does this (I need to burn one, one of these days), but the Linux distro I have has a union filesystem overlaid on the CD, a number of recompiled games and even X11R6. I think the games are software rendering only, however. That said, without swap it runs out of memory pretty quick. NFS swap is ... interesting. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- That's enough to make me LOL out loud. -- "Monk" --------------------------- From spc at conman.org Mon Jun 27 18:31:16 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:31:16 -0400 Subject: Some questions about the MC6839 Message-ID: <20160627233116.GI29728@brevard.conman.org> So Motorola apparently never produced the MC6839, a ROM containing position independent 6809 code for implementing (as far as I can see) IEEE 754 Draft 8. Motorola *did* however, release the resulting binary into (from what I understand) the Public Domain [1] but I've yet to find the actual source code, which would solve my current problem. I'm playing around with the code in an MC6809 emulator [2] and trying to use it (getting my retro-software fix in as it were). It works---not as accurate as today's stuff, but close enough and it supports single and double precision. The current issue I have is with the FMOV opcode (register entry) described as: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Function|Opcode| Register entry conditions | Stack entry conditions ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | FMOV | $1A | U = precision parameter word| push arg | | | Y -> argument | push precision param word | | | D -> fpcb | push ptr to fpcb | | | X -> result | call FPO9 | | | | pull result ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For moves, U contains a parameter word describing the size of the source and destination arguments. The bits are as follows, where the size is as defined in the fpcb control byte Bits 0-2 : Destination size Bits 3-7 : unused Bits 8-10 : Source size Bits 11-15: unused It's not clear if U should contain the actual parameter value, or a pointer to the parameter value. It just doesn't seem to work no matter how I code it. Anyone have any clue? -spc (I'm at a loss here ... ) [1] Available in the file fpo9.lzh here https://ftplike.com/browser/os9archive.rtsi.com/OS9/OS9_6X09/PROG/ [2] I wrote one: https://github.com/spc476/mc6809 Not much documentation I'm afraid. From iamvirtual at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 21:21:14 2016 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:21:14 -0600 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> Message-ID: It appears that I do have one of these stands (3 actually). What measurements do you need? --barrym On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > On 06/24/2016 05:05 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> ...I know where there might be one or too, but they are currently >> burried. I'll call him next week to see if he'll sell them... >> > > That'd be great, thanks! > > --FritzM. > > From iamvirtual at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 21:21:14 2016 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:21:14 -0600 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> Message-ID: It appears that I do have one of these stands (3 actually). What measurements do you need? --barrym On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > On 06/24/2016 05:05 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> ...I know where there might be one or too, but they are currently >> burried. I'll call him next week to see if he'll sell them... >> > > That'd be great, thanks! > > --FritzM. > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 00:06:20 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 01:06:20 -0400 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 10:21 PM, B M wrote: > It appears that I do have one of these stands (3 actually). What > measurements do you need? We know from the sales brochure jpg that it's 26" tall (the VT52 is thick, so it needs to be that short to put the keyboard at "typing height", but could you measure, and/or photograph the part that the VT52 sits on? The rest is, as has been pointed out, much like a modern office chair, and as long as we can find something that puts the plate at 26", it should be good (I've already done such conversions for a rolling microscope stand). Thanks! -ethan From walton.david at sky.com Tue Jun 28 01:32:33 2016 From: walton.david at sky.com (David Walton) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:32:33 +0100 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive Message-ID: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> Hi I collect vintage IBM laptops, have just joined the community, and wonder if anyone can help with the following: 1. Can write a Teledisk image of concurrent CP/M for Displaywriter to two 8 inch floppy disks which I can supply? 2. Can solder a cable fie me which will interface an ibm 6360 8 inch floppy to a PC. I am unable to do this myself. 3. I have an external 5.25 floppy adapter/a inside an ibm ps/2 p70 and wonder if the external 37 pin connector is pin compatible with the 37 pin connector of the ibm 6360 8 inch floppy drive? I thought about connecting two out of the 3 cables from this drive to an IBM displaywriter (supplying the correct voltages etc) and the 37 pin connector to my external 5.25 adapter/a card? Thanks for your help. David From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jun 28 01:55:56 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 23:55:56 -0700 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <57721F7C.1000204@fritzm.org> On 06/27/2016 10:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > ...could you measure, and/or photograph the part that the VT52 sits on? Yes please, pictures appreciated, thanks! --FritzM. From cramcram at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 00:00:12 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 22:00:12 -0700 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> Message-ID: I think you could take one of these chairs: https://www.amazon.com/Martin-Stanford-Drafting-Height-Seating/dp/B004CCRP3M/ref=sr_1_14?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1467089652&sr=1-14&keywords=5+wheel+work+bench+chair ...throw away the seat, cobble together a VT5x mounting plate (you might even be able to use the existing seat plate) and you'd have the same thing, with the bonus of adjustable height. Marc On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 7:21 PM, B M wrote: > It appears that I do have one of these stands (3 actually). What > measurements do you need? > > --barrym > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > > On 06/24/2016 05:05 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > >> ...I know where there might be one or too, but they are currently > >> burried. I'll call him next week to see if he'll sell them... > >> > > > > That'd be great, thanks! > > > > --FritzM. > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 28 03:43:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 01:43:32 -0700 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> Message-ID: <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> On 06/27/2016 11:32 PM, David Walton wrote: > Hi I collect vintage IBM laptops, have just joined the community, and > wonder if anyone can help with the following: > > 1. Can write a Teledisk image of concurrent CP/M for Displaywriter > to two 8 inch floppy disks which I can supply? Probably--I think I remember something about Teledisk. But you didn't give your location. Clearly if there's an international border between us, it's going to get complicated. > 2. Can solder a cable fie me which will interface an ibm 6360 8 inch > floppy to a PC. I am unable to do this myself. Maybe, but see your next point. > 3. I have an external 5.25 floppy adapter/a inside an ibm ps/2 p70 > and wonder if the external 37 pin connector is pin compatible with > the 37 pin connector of the ibm 6360 8 inch floppy drive? I don't know that, but I do have the pinout for the Diskette Adapter/A. But I don't know (and suspect it won't) if Teledisk or even Imagedisk will work with the DAA. > I thought about connecting two out of the 3 cables from this drive to > an IBM displaywriter (supplying the correct voltages etc) and the 37 > pin connector to my external 5.25 adapter/a card? Too bad it's a PS/2 system--a legacy whitebox PC system would be easier to work with. PS/2 floppy drives are generally strange. --Chuck From axelsson at acc.umu.se Tue Jun 28 04:28:33 2016 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 11:28:33 +0200 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted Message-ID: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> Hi all, I have a Norsk Data ND110324 9-track drive which is a rebranded StorageTek 2920 with SCSI interface. So far I have only found a single manual for it, a quick guide card of 10 pages. Is there a manual out there which describes the unit a bit more in depth, like setting the SCSI address, diagnostic program codes, service, technical specifications and so on. So far I have got it to load a tape automatically and detect the recording density. Next step is to get it to talk to a linux-computer for imaging some old tapes. Thanks in advance, G?ran From axelsson at acc.umu.se Tue Jun 28 04:37:10 2016 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 11:37:10 +0200 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <40be5ed9-a413-9907-cd18-5150864dbb89@acc.umu.se> Adding the links I should have included from start ... doh! Den 2016-06-28 kl. 11:28, skrev G?ran Axelsson: > Hi all, > > I have a Norsk Data ND110324 9-track drive which is a rebranded > StorageTek 2920 with SCSI interface. http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/User:Gandalf/hw/filestore_2 > So far I have only found a single manual for it, a quick guide card of > 10 pages. http://sintran.com/norsk-data/library/libquick/libquick.html > > Is there a manual out there which describes the unit a bit more in > depth, like setting the SCSI address, diagnostic program codes, > service, technical specifications and so on. > > So far I have got it to load a tape automatically and detect the > recording density. Next step is to get it to talk to a linux-computer > for imaging some old tapes. > > Thanks in advance, > G?ran > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 28 07:38:54 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 08:38:54 -0400 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <866CACD1-B42F-4493-BF05-00CF28043FA0@comcast.net> > On Jun 28, 2016, at 1:06 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 10:21 PM, B M wrote: >> It appears that I do have one of these stands (3 actually). What >> measurements do you need? > > We know from the sales brochure jpg that it's 26" tall (the VT52 is > thick, so it needs to be that short to put the keyboard at "typing > height", but could you measure, and/or photograph the part that the > VT52 sits on? The things to look for are (a) the dimensions of the rectangular top, (b) the height of the lip (since I think the VT52 base drops into that lip and is held by it) and (c) the position of the support column under the top (position of the center of gravity). paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 28 08:46:53 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 06:46:53 -0700 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> Message-ID: <57727FCD.5090303@bitsavers.org> On 6/27/16 11:32 PM, David Walton wrote: > 1. Can write a Teledisk image of concurrent CP/M for Displaywriter to two 8 inch floppy disks which I can supply? > Displaywriters supported single and double-sided drives. What kind do you have? I assume these are from the 3.5" images that have been discussed on the CP/M usenet group. Are these images recorded as single or double-sided? Someone there has dumped a directory, I guess I should take a closer look at what was dumped. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 08:47:50 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:47:50 -0300 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> Message-ID: <57728006.80407@gmail.com> On 2016-06-28 3:32 AM, David Walton wrote: > Hi > I collect vintage IBM laptops, have just joined the community, and wonder if anyone can help with the following: > > 1. Can write a Teledisk image of concurrent CP/M for Displaywriter to two 8 inch floppy disks which I can supply? > > 2. Can solder a cable fie me which will interface an ibm 6360 8 inch floppy to a PC. I am unable to do this myself. > > 3. I have an external 5.25 floppy adapter/a inside an ibm ps/2 p70 and wonder if the external 37 pin connector is pin compatible with the 37 pin connector of the ibm 6360 8 inch floppy drive? > > I thought about connecting two out of the 3 cables from this drive to an IBM displaywriter (supplying the correct voltages etc) and the 37 pin connector to my external 5.25 adapter/a card? > > Thanks for your help. > > David If you want to create diskettes from images to use with your Displaywriter you would be much further ahead to obtain a 8" diskette drive with an "industry standard" interface. The 6360 diskette unit has a drive controller built into into it so the external connection is to the system bus rather than to a diskette controller like the external floppy connector you have for your PS/2 system. Even the raw drives do not have a standard interface and are missing some of the signals that are found on industry standard drives. The signals for controlling head motion are different, however that could be gotten around with a little logic, but the big problem will be the IBM drives do not have a track zero signal. On the IBM drives, when they are initialized they do about 80 outward steps to ensure the head is at track zero. The first generation R/W drives the 33FD or Igar made an unforgettable noise when seeking zero on the drives like the ones in the 6360 it is less noticeable. Paul. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 28 08:48:03 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 06:48:03 -0700 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> On 6/28/16 1:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > interface an ibm 6360 8 inch >> floppy to a PC. I am unable to do this myself. > this seems like a really bad idea. are these even remotely compatible with a normal 50 pin Shugart interface? From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 08:48:50 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:48:50 -0300 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> On 2016-06-28 10:48 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/28/16 1:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> interface an ibm 6360 8 inch >>> floppy to a PC. I am unable to do this myself. >> > > this seems like a really bad idea. are these even remotely > compatible with a normal 50 pin Shugart interface? > > > Nope not even close Paul. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 28 08:50:57 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 06:50:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <577280C1.6070402@bitsavers.org> On 6/28/16 6:48 AM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2016-06-28 10:48 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 6/28/16 1:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> interface an ibm 6360 8 inch >>>> floppy to a PC. I am unable to do this myself. >>> >> >> this seems like a really bad idea. are these even remotely >> compatible with a normal 50 pin Shugart interface? >> >> >> > Nope not even close > > Paul. Curious, since CHM (and LCM, it think) have double-sided Displaywriters.. Has anyone gotten these images to work on real hardware. That's probably the only choice, since AFAIK no one has an emulation From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 10:27:59 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 11:27:59 -0400 Subject: Wanted: VT5x roll-around stand In-Reply-To: <866CACD1-B42F-4493-BF05-00CF28043FA0@comcast.net> References: <576D9BFF.3030200@fritzm.org> <576DBCEC.8000903@fritzm.org> <576DCCB7.3090906@fritzm.org> <866CACD1-B42F-4493-BF05-00CF28043FA0@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:38 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Jun 28, 2016, at 1:06 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> We know from the sales brochure jpg that it's 26" tall... > > The things to look for are (a) the dimensions of the rectangular top, (b) the height of the lip (since I think the VT52 base drops into that lip and is held by it) and (c) the position of the support column under the top (position of the center of gravity). Yep. All excellent things to know. Also, it would be nice to get an idea of the thickness of the metal. I've never seen one of these so I have no idea how to fabricate them (at the detail level). Once we get some dimensions, I have access to a pretty good shop at our Makerspace, the Columbus Idea Foundry. I also have multiple VT52s I'd love to put on wheels! One source I have for chair bases is Ohio State University surplus. They are constantly selling retired furniture for cheap. There's also an Office Furniture place down the block from the Idea Foundry that's about to close to be demolished for new development. I'll bet chairs are cheap there! Thanks, Barry! -ethan From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Jun 28 11:00:21 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 02:00:21 +1000 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: <57727FCD.5090303@bitsavers.org> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <57727FCD.5090303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On 28 Jun 2016, at 11:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Displaywriters supported single and double-sided drives. What kind do you have? I assume these are from the 3.5" images that have been discussed on the CP/M usenet group. Are these images recorded as single > or double-sided? Someone there has dumped a directory, I guess I should > take a closer look at what was dumped. Previously .... http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-May/022226.html I started looking at ways to extract the XIOS portion since it would have the hooks to the IBM Displaywriter ROM, but haven't made any progress as yet. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 28 11:06:33 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 09:06:33 -0700 Subject: IBM 6360 8 inch floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <57727FCD.5090303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9141b2aa-5631-825d-9ae9-b3c21f9929f8@bitsavers.org> The thread on comp.os.cpm is "Displaywriter and CP/M 86" -- exerpts Both of those .TD0 files were created on a HD 3.5" Floppy (Single Sided) with Teledisk Ver 2.15 01.IMD = 01.TD0 IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012 IMD TD 1.5 3.5 HD MFM S-step, 1 sides ADV 30/03/2005 23:48:57 DRI Disk with odd CP/M-86 format 0/0 500 kbps SD 26x128 1/0 500 kbps SD 15x256 6/0 500 kbps DD 8x1024 77 tracks(77/0), 669 sectors (225 Compressed) 21.IMD = 21.TD0 IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012 IMD TD 1.5 3.5 HD MFM S-step, 1 sides ADV 31/03/2005 22:50:32 Unknown CP/M-86 disk image 0/0 500 kbps SD 26x128 1/0 500 kbps SD 15x256 6/0 500 kbps DD 8x1024 77 tracks(77/0), 669 sectors (58 Compressed, 1 Bad) I've conjured up a cpmtools definition for a correct directory listing of both TD0 files. # COM8X Compupro (Viasyn) 8/16 - SSDD 8" - 1024 x 8 diskdef com8x seclen 1024 tracks 77 sectrk 8 blocksize 2048 maxdir 128 skew 3 offset 22528 boottrk 0 end It seems to work correctly. Larry -- 01.RAW Directory: ----------------- MPM SYS BDOS MPM CIO MPM SUP MPM MEM MPM RTM MPM XIOS MPM SYSDAT MPM CLOCK RSP ECHO RSP MPMSTAT RSP TMP RSP DIRECT ORY ABORT CMD ASM86 CMD ATTACH CMD CONSOLE CMD COPYDISK CMD DDT86 CMD DIR CMD DSKRESET CMD ED CMD ERA CMD ERAQ CMD GENCMD CMD GENSYS CMD HELP CMD HELP HLP HELP DAT HELP TEX MPMSTAT CMD PIP CMD REN CMD SDIR CMD SET CMD SETUP CMD SHOW CMD SPOOL CMD STAT CMD STOPSPLR CMD SUBMIT CMD TOD CMD TYPE CMD CRUN86 CMD CPU INT 21.RAW Directory: ----------------- PIP CMD CBAS86 CMD CRUN86 CMD XREF86 CMD DEFINE BAS DEFINE INT INVNTORY BAS CHECK BAS CHECK INT EVENT BAS SELECTOR BAS SELECTOR INT SELECTOR DOC PAYABLES BAS SET BAS SET INT NOUPD BAS LIBRARY BAS CLIENT BAS JULIAN BAS UPDATE BAS UPDATE INT REPORT BAS REPORT INT SELECT BAS SELECT INT RCVABLES BAS AUTOUPD BAS UPOPTION BAS CONVERT BAS CONVERT INT SALES BAS STANDARD BAS CPU BAS CPU INT MPFORM INT MPSET INT MPLOGIC INT PLAN INT MPPRINT INT MPSHOW INT MPSTAT INT MPEXT INT CUSTOM INT FOO BAS FOO INT FOO1 BAS FOO1 INT FOO2 BAS MPSETUP FIL MPERROR FIL MPHELP FIL MPHELPA FIL MPMENU FIL MPSERIAL NUM SCREENS DAT TERMINAL DAT TEST DAT TEST KEY SALES SEL SALES SRT INCOME TBL INCOME LOG DIRECT ORY COPY COM MERGE COM On 6/28/16 9:00 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> On 28 Jun 2016, at 11:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Displaywriters supported single and double-sided drives. What kind do you have? I assume these are from the 3.5" images that have been discussed on the CP/M usenet group. Are these images recorded as single >> or double-sided? Someone there has dumped a directory, I guess I should >> take a closer look at what was dumped. > > Previously .... > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-May/022226.html > > I started looking at ways to extract the XIOS portion since it would have the hooks to the IBM Displaywriter ROM, but haven't made any progress as yet. > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jun 28 11:33:01 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 09:33:01 -0700 Subject: Early PDP-11/45 backplane SPC power Message-ID: <5772A6BD.5080402@fritzm.org> So, after finding that a DL11-E wasn't working in the backplane SPC slots (26-28) on my 11/45, I took a closer look. The problem isn't exactly what I had expected -- -15V seems to be distributed there, but +15 is not. Looking closely at the print sets, the listed configurations only mention DL11-A, the 20ma current loop model, which wouldn't require +15 to work. I wonder if some +15 distribution wires were added in an ECO, or maybe EIA console from the backplane SPC slots was never supported for these early 11/45s (mine is serial 152). There's one other oddity -- the power distribution table in EK-11045-MM-007, page 510, implies that +15 should be distributed to the SPC slots on CA1. I'm wondering if this is a typo, since I'd expect that pin to be NPG? The DL11-E looks to be expecting +15 on UA1 in any case. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jun 28 11:46:04 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 16:46:04 +0000 Subject: Dual Head Rainbow Video In-Reply-To: <017f01d1d0ba$3648f320$a2dad960$@ntlworld.com> References: <011701d1cfdb$cde242c0$69a6c840$@ntlworld.com> <20160627132415.GH7239@Update.UU.SE> <017f01d1d0ba$3648f320$a2dad960$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Jun 27, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The machine came to me with a handmade split cable. I will work out the pin > out and post it. You need a BCC17 cable for the VR241 (BCC03 doesn't work in > this configuration). Rob, Here is a repeat of a somewhat old post from this mailing list. I think applicable here, though. Hope this is useful. Not my work, I use my Rainbow with one monitor at a time, but this is on my to-do list at some point. Thanks to Tony Duell for the original. ----__ListProc__NextPart____CLASSICCMP__digest_971 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:29:53 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: classiccmp at u.washington.edu Subject: Rainbow Monitor Cable Message-ID: Content-Type: text I seem to remember some old posts here about using 2 monitors with the DEC Rainbow, or using a non-standard monitor, etc. I've just made up a cable which seems to allow just about every possible combination -- I'll stick the wiring diagrams and instructions at the end of this message. I've not tested it fully yet, but it certainly seems to work for all the combinations that I've tried. -tony A universal DEC Rainbow video cable ----------------------------------- This cable allows almost all possible monitor combinations to be used with the Rainbow (see below). Connections : ------------- Rainbow end (DA15-S) 1 >----------+---------+-- Blue Gnd 9 >-------O---------O-- Blue 2 >----------+---------+-- Green Gnd 10 >-------O---------O-- Green 3 >----------+---------+-- Red Gnd 11 >-------O---------O-- Red 4 >----------+---------+-- Mono Gnd 12 >-------O---------O-- Mono 5 >----+ 13 >-+ +------------ Power Gnd 6 >----------+------------ Key Gnd 14 >-------------------- From Key 7 >----------------------- Power 12V 15 >-------------------- To Key 8 >----------------------- Key 12V Box-mounted connectors : VR201 (DA15-P) 1 o 9 o 2 o 10 o 3 o 11 o 4 o-----------+--------+--- Mono Gnd 12 o--------O--------O--- Mono 5 o-------+---------------- Power Gnd 13 o | 6 o-------+---------------- Key Gnd 14 o--------------------- From Key 7 o------------------------ Power 12V 15 o--------------------- To Key 8 o------------------------ Key 12V Monitor BNCs : Red ( o )--------- Red Gnd | +----------- Red Green ( o )--------- Green Gnd | +----------- Green Blue ( o )--------- Blue Gnd | +----------- Blue Mono ( o )--------- Mono Gnd | +----------- Mono LK201 keyboard (RJ11-- front face view) ------- | | ----- ----- | | | | | | -- ^ ^ ^ ^-- | | | | From Key -----+ | | +----- To Key Key 12V----------+ +-------- Key Gnd Components : ------------ DA15S socket + hood (to fit Rainbow video connector) DA15P plug + jackposts (for VR201 connection) 4 off 75 Ohm BNC sockets (for monitor connections). You could use other connectors, like RCA phono, but BNC are standard. RJ11 socket, chassis mounting (for LK201 keyboard). Chassis mounting sockets of this type are very hard to find. I ended up making a bracket to clamp a PCB-mounting one to the panel Metal box of a suitable size to hold the above connectors (apart from the DA15S). 1m cable. At least 4 75 Ohm screened cores and 6 single wires. I used a 'unversal SCART cable' which has 6 75 ohm screened cores (I simply ignored 2 of them), a 4 way screened cable (I used this for the 4 keyboard connections) and 4 other wires (2 in parallel for each of Power 12V and Power Gnd). Possible monitor combinations : ------------------------------- 1) VR201 only This is pretty useless, but you can connect a VR201 mono monitor using the DEC lead to the DA15P on the box. Connect the LK201 keyboard to either the VR201 or the RJ11 on the box. 2) Standard composite mono monitor Connect monitor input to 'mono' BNC on the box. Connect LK201 to the RJ11 on the box. This works just like a VR201, but you can use any monitor 3) VR201 and separate mono graphics monitor Connect VR201 to DA15P. Connect LK201to either RJ11 on the box or to VR201. Connect second (composite) monitor to the 'green' BNC. You can use the dual monitor driver for GSX and have text on the VR201 and graphics on the second monitor 4) Two composite mono monitors Connect one to 'mono' BNC, other to 'green' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Using the dual monitor driver, you get text on the first monitor and graphics on the second monitor 5) RGB (sync-on-green) colour monitor (e.g. VR241) Connect monitor inputs to BNCs as follows : Red - Red Green - Mono Blue - Blue. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. This gives the standard DEC color monitor connections giving green text and colour graphics using the colour monitor driver 6) RGB monitor and VR201 Connect VR201 to DA15P on box. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Connect color monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver 7) RGB monitor and composite mono monitor Connect mono monitor input to 'mono' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11. Connect colour monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 28 13:51:20 2016 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:51:20 +0200 Subject: Mim.Update.UU.SE Message-ID: <204da97b-4cea-f54f-9880-5e48a8533bb1@softjar.se> Some people might have noticed that Mim.Update.UU.SE have not been reachable the last week. This is because the University have decided to put all systems behind firewalls, which hurt the Update computer club pretty bad. For people who would still like to get access to Mim, I have now setup telnet to listen to a second port in addition to port 23. Mim is now accessible by telnet on port 10023 as well, which is not blocked by an firewall. In addition, I also added ftp on port 10021 in addition to port 21, so people who would like to get to files on Mim by ftp can do so again. This also prompted me to make a couple of improvements to BQTCP/IP for RSX. The changes are that the telnet daemon can now be set to listen to an alternative port, and can also listen to several ports. I also added the capability to the ftp client to specify which port to connect to. The TCP/IP package can be found at ftp://mim.update.uu.se:10021/ However, if you have the previous version of TCP/IP for RSX, you cannot access this address, as the previous version ftp client did not accept a port argument. So it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. But using some intermediate system, you can get the disk image to the machine, and install the new version, after which things will be possible to use more or less as before. One more thing: NEMA, my very tiny EMACS clone for RSX, have gotten a lot of work done lately, and if anyone is interested in this tool, I really recommend that you fetch the latest version. A port to VMS is also included with the files now, courtesy of Erik Olufsen. NEMA is available at ftp://nema at mim.update.uu.se:10021/ Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jun 28 13:52:06 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 11:52:06 -0700 Subject: Early PDP-11/45 backplane SPC power In-Reply-To: <5772A6BD.5080402@fritzm.org> References: <5772A6BD.5080402@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <5772C756.3080507@fritzm.org> On 06/28/2016 09:33 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > ...the power distribution table in EK-11045-MM-007, page 510, implies > that +15 should be distributed to the SPC slots on CA1. I'm wondering > if this is a typo, since I'd expect that pin to be NPG? The DL11-E > looks to be expecting +15 on UA1 in any case. (Typo'd that last sentence -- should say "CU1"). From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 28 13:52:26 2016 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:52:26 +0200 Subject: [HECnet] Mim.Update.UU.SE In-Reply-To: <204da97b-4cea-f54f-9880-5e48a8533bb1@softjar.se> References: <204da97b-4cea-f54f-9880-5e48a8533bb1@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 2016-06-28 20:51, Johnny Billquist wrote: > One more thing: NEMA, my very tiny EMACS clone for RSX, have gotten a > lot of work done lately, and if anyone is interested in this tool, I > really recommend that you fetch the latest version. A port to VMS is > also included with the files now, courtesy of Erik Olufsen. Argh! Erik Olofsen, that is... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 13:55:27 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 14:55:27 -0400 Subject: Early PDP-11/45 backplane SPC power In-Reply-To: <5772C756.3080507@fritzm.org> References: <5772A6BD.5080402@fritzm.org> <5772C756.3080507@fritzm.org> Message-ID: DD11A or B would have power to CA1 unless you remove the wirewrap, right? On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > On 06/28/2016 09:33 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > >> ...the power distribution table in EK-11045-MM-007, page 510, implies >> that +15 should be distributed to the SPC slots on CA1. I'm wondering if >> this is a typo, since I'd expect that pin to be NPG? The DL11-E looks to be >> expecting +15 on UA1 in any case. >> > > (Typo'd that last sentence -- should say "CU1"). > > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 28 12:16:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:16:54 -0500 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <5772B106.9040809@pico-systems.com> On 06/28/2016 04:28 AM, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a Norsk Data ND110324 9-track drive which is a > rebranded StorageTek 2920 with SCSI interface. So far I > have only found a single manual for it, a quick guide card > of 10 pages. > > Is there a manual out there which describes the unit a bit > more in depth, like setting the SCSI address, diagnostic > program codes, service, technical specifications and so on. > Are you sure it is SCSI? 2920 sounds real familiar, I think we had a 2920 at work, and the interface was proprietary. Just because it has 50-pin connectors does not mean it is SCSI. There were a couple outfits that made controllers for it. I think we had an Aviv Q-bus controller for ours. I still have that board. Jon From tingox at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 13:36:35 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:36:35 +0200 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 11:28 AM, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a Norsk Data ND110324 9-track drive which is a rebranded StorageTek > 2920 with SCSI interface. So far I have only found a single manual for it, a > quick guide card of 10 pages. > > Is there a manual out there which describes the unit a bit more in depth, > like setting the SCSI address, diagnostic program codes, service, technical > specifications and so on. > FWIW, there is one on eBay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Manual-For-Storage-Technology-Corp-2920-Tape-Subsystem-Maintenance-Manual-/301524483917 -- Regards Torfinn From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 28 14:10:54 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:10:54 -0700 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <93e093b5-4793-9556-f225-5ebfc6b9d7f8@bitsavers.org> On 6/28/16 11:36 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > FWIW, there is one on eBay: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Manual-For-Storage-Technology-Corp-2920-Tape-Subsystem-Maintenance-Manual-/301524483917 I bought it, and will take care of getting it scanned and on bitsavers. I've got some other STC manuals in the queue too. From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jun 28 14:36:42 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:36:42 -0700 Subject: Early PDP-11/45 backplane SPC power In-Reply-To: References: <5772A6BD.5080402@fritzm.org> <5772C756.3080507@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <5772D1CA.2010509@fritzm.org> On 06/28/2016 11:55 AM, william degnan wrote: > DD11A or B would have power to CA1 unless you remove the wirewrap, right? The way the prints look to me, the DD11A and B take +5V on CA2, DA2, EA2, FA2, which is per normal for SPC slots that I've seen. I can't find reference to CA1 in the DD11 prints, and indeed looking at the several DD11 cards that I have on hand the CA1 pad is not connected to any traces. Also, all the SPC pinouts I've seen list CA1 and CB1 as the NPG chain. So it would be weird/wrong to have power there? So I'm suspecting this is a typo in the 11/45 maint manual. I'd be interested to know from anybody else out there who has a running 11/45 or 55, do you have +15V on slots 26-28 CU1? What about slots 26-28 CA1? --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jun 28 14:53:39 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:53:39 -0700 Subject: Early PDP-11/45 backplane SPC power In-Reply-To: <5772D1CA.2010509@fritzm.org> References: <5772A6BD.5080402@fritzm.org> <5772C756.3080507@fritzm.org> <5772D1CA.2010509@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <5772D5C3.2010204@fritzm.org> On 06/28/2016 11:55 AM, william degnan wrote: > DD11A or B would have power to CA1 unless you remove the wirewrap, right? Darn it, you said "DD" not "DL" -- I need to read more carefully before I type! Lemme take a look... From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jun 28 15:19:58 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:19:58 -0700 Subject: Early PDP-11/45 backplane SPC power In-Reply-To: <5772D5C3.2010204@fritzm.org> References: <5772A6BD.5080402@fritzm.org> <5772C756.3080507@fritzm.org> <5772D1CA.2010509@fritzm.org> <5772D5C3.2010204@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <5772DBEE.8050106@fritzm.org> On 06/28/2016 11:55 AM, william degnan wrote: > DD11A or B would have power to CA1 unless you remove the wirewrap, right? Just checked the prints for those as well -- no power to CA1, +5V to CA2, and on the DD11B +15/+8 to CU1 throughout. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 20:01:26 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:01:26 -0500 Subject: On Offer: MAI Basic Four Mini in Chicago Message-ID: It's that time of year when a young man starts to take stock of reality (for better or for worse) and decides that his load must be lightened. This time the machine with on the block is an MAI Basic Four deskside minicomputer. I'm not sure of the exact model but it can be seen in the first three pictures in this gallery: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/HaulOf10315?noredirect=1 Note: nothing else in that gallery is on offer at this time - maybe later. However other random hardware may be thrown at you during the transfer. I have not powered it up. I was told it was working when taken out of service many years ago, but we all know how that goes. I have some documentation for it that I will be scanning (some of which is not already on Bitsavers) but I will send it along to whoever takes the machine afterwards. I do not have any disk or tape media for it. I'm not looking to get a lot for it - trades would be fine, preferably for something that I can lift myself, however I am also looking for a working DEC RX02 drive or a later IBM terminal controller (3174 or similar) with Ethernet that I can use to run IBM real terminals on Hercules. Preference goes to: 1) someone local who can haul it away. I am not presently equipped to deal with shipping anything this large. 2) someone will will get it sooner rather than later 3) someone who will make it sing again. If you're coming to VCFMW in September, the storage unit holding the MAI is just a few miles away from the hotel and we can do the loud-out then. If you're here sooner, even better. -j From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 22:06:44 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 22:06:44 -0500 Subject: IC Identification? In-Reply-To: <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7C4429F6-1B8B-430B-A735-FE69538880B3@gmail.com> Hey everyone, I'm in the process of trying to unload a bunch of things I don't need, and I have several sticks of old ICs that I have no need for. Most are easily identified, but this one in particular I can't figure out, so I'm hoping someone here knows: 130018 4393409 RCA Z 806 Any help would be appreciated! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 28 22:41:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:41:14 -0700 Subject: IC Identification? In-Reply-To: <7C4429F6-1B8B-430B-A735-FE69538880B3@gmail.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> <7C4429F6-1B8B-430B-A735-FE69538880B3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5773435A.8080909@sydex.com> On 06/28/2016 08:06 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Hey everyone, > > I'm in the process of trying to unload a bunch of things I don't > need, and I have several sticks of old ICs that I have no need for. > Most are easily identified, but this one in particular I can't figure > out, so I'm hoping someone here knows: > > 130018 4393409 RCA Z 806 > > Any help would be appreciated! RCA, was at one time, very big in transistor arrays. I wonder if this isn't just a house number for a CA3018. A thought, anyway. --Chuck From brendan at mcneill.co.nz Tue Jun 28 22:22:22 2016 From: brendan at mcneill.co.nz (Brendan McNeill) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 15:22:22 +1200 Subject: Tandy TRS0-Model 2000 Computer Monitor required Message-ID: Looking for a Tandy TRS-80 Model 2000 compute monitor. Wikipedia description here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_2000 The monochrome is model VM-1 Monitor, the colour is CM-1 Monitor. Many thanks Brendan --------------//---------------- brendan at mcneill.co.nz +64 21 881 883 From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Jun 29 00:44:00 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 00:44:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Tandy TRS0-Model 2000 Computer Monitor required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2016, Brendan McNeill wrote: > Looking for a Tandy TRS-80 Model 2000 compute monitor. Wikipedia > description here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_2000 > > > The monochrome is model VM-1 Monitor, the colour is CM-1 Monitor. Does your system have the color video board installed? If not, you'll only be able to use the monochrome monitor. I have a Model 2000 system in the same state, no color video board fitted and in need of a monochrome monitor. From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Wed Jun 29 02:20:10 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 17:20:10 +1000 Subject: FOCAL-65 for the 6502? Message-ID: Long ago there was a thread about FOCAL-65 for the 6502, and I asked the people involved but it seemed it never came to light. http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/2001-September/1691.html As it happens I appear to have both the user-manual and a quite thick photocopied (not great quality) listing of FOCAL-65, that I am happy to scan and upload somewhere. However, if this already exists somewhere and can point to it, I can put this scanning task aside. thanks. From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 05:10:26 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 06:10:26 -0400 Subject: FOCAL-65 for the 6502? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <061601d1d1ee$755bff00$6013fd00$@gmail.com> +1 from here; I'm not aware of it being available elsewhere online :-<. Thank you for making this generous offer! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nigel Williams Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 3:20 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: FOCAL-65 for the 6502? Long ago there was a thread about FOCAL-65 for the 6502, and I asked the people involved but it seemed it never came to light. http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/2001-September/1691.html As it happens I appear to have both the user-manual and a quite thick photocopied (not great quality) listing of FOCAL-65, that I am happy to scan and upload somewhere. However, if this already exists somewhere and can point to it, I can put this scanning task aside. thanks. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 05:50:17 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 06:50:17 -0400 Subject: FOCAL-65 for the 6502? In-Reply-To: <061601d1d1ee$755bff00$6013fd00$@gmail.com> References: <061601d1d1ee$755bff00$6013fd00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 29, 2016 6:10 AM, "Paul Birkel" wrote: > > +1 from here; I'm not aware of it being available elsewhere online :-<. Thank you for making this generous offer! > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nigel Williams > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 3:20 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: FOCAL-65 for the 6502? > > Long ago there was a thread about FOCAL-65 for the 6502, and I asked the people involved but it seemed it never came to light. > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/2001-September/1691.html > > As it happens I appear to have both the user-manual and a quite thick photocopied (not great quality) listing of FOCAL-65, that I am happy to scan and upload somewhere. > > However, if this already exists somewhere and can point to it, I can put this scanning task aside. > > thanks. > I seem to remember an OSI version/docs. I may have the docs for this if anyone wants me to investigate... Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 06:44:39 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 07:44:39 -0400 Subject: FOCAL-65 for the 6502? In-Reply-To: References: <061601d1d1ee$755bff00$6013fd00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <062a01d1d1fb$9ea22d00$dbe68700$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 6:50 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: FOCAL-65 for the 6502? On Jun 29, 2016 6:10 AM, "Paul Birkel" wrote: > > +1 from here; I'm not aware of it being available elsewhere online :-<. Thank you for making this generous offer! > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nigel Williams > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 3:20 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: FOCAL-65 for the 6502? > > Long ago there was a thread about FOCAL-65 for the 6502, and I asked > the people involved but it seemed it never came to light. > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/2001-September/1691.html > > As it happens I appear to have both the user-manual and a quite thick photocopied (not great quality) listing of FOCAL-65, that I am happy to scan and upload somewhere. > > However, if this already exists somewhere and can point to it, I can > put this scanning task aside. > > thanks. > I seem to remember an OSI version/docs. I may have the docs for this if anyone wants me to investigate... Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net ----- I'm interested, Bill. Thank you for checking. ----- From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 08:46:25 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:46:25 -0400 Subject: Tandy TRS0-Model 2000 Computer Monitor required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a buddy with 2 2000's , one of witch does have a color video board. Would the machine with the color video board be of interest to you? We picked them up a couple years back, but could not get much done with them. --Devin On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2016, Brendan McNeill wrote: > > Looking for a Tandy TRS-80 Model 2000 compute monitor. Wikipedia >> description here: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_2000 < >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_2000> >> >> The monochrome is model VM-1 Monitor, the colour is CM-1 Monitor. >> > > Does your system have the color video board installed? If not, you'll only > be able to use the monochrome monitor. I have a Model 2000 system in the > same state, no color video board fitted and in need of a monochrome monitor. > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 10:33:13 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:33:13 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> Message-ID: Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On the emulator, not yet on the real machine: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html Marc There are only two entries right now: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html Marc From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 10:46:26 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 10:46:26 -0500 Subject: IC Identification? In-Reply-To: <5773435A.8080909@sydex.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> <7C4429F6-1B8B-430B-A735-FE69538880B3@gmail.com> <5773435A.8080909@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 06/28/2016 08:06 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > > > I'm in the process of trying to unload a bunch of things I don't > > need, and I have several sticks of old ICs that I have no need for. > > Most are easily identified, but this one in particular I can't figure > > out, so I'm hoping someone here knows: > > > > 130018 4393409 RCA Z 806 > > > > Any help would be appreciated! > > > RCA, was at one time, very big in transistor arrays. I wonder if this > isn't just a house number for a CA3018. > > A thought, anyway. > > --Chuck > I guess I should have mentioned that it's in a DIP 40, the size of a Z80 processor or the like. I wonder if it's some MPU for an RCA TV? Not sure, I do have a bunch of ICs for TV video circuits in this box of stuff. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 29 11:24:16 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:24:16 -0700 Subject: IC Identification? In-Reply-To: References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> <7C4429F6-1B8B-430B-A735-FE69538880B3@gmail.com> <5773435A.8080909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5773F630.7050601@sydex.com> On 06/29/2016 08:46 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I guess I should have mentioned that it's in a DIP 40, the size of a Z80 > processor or the like. I wonder if it's some MPU for an RCA TV? Not sure, I > do have a bunch of ICs for TV video circuits in this box of stuff. That seems likely--particularly in that the labeling is a house number, not a standard commodity part. Probably has some special firmware inside. --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 12:00:42 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 12:00:42 -0500 Subject: IC Identification? In-Reply-To: <5773F630.7050601@sydex.com> References: <54B40A1B-BF30-4F05-805C-7B3E0B024249@sky.com> <577238B4.1010809@sydex.com> <57728013.1090606@bitsavers.org> <57728042.5040405@gmail.com> <7C4429F6-1B8B-430B-A735-FE69538880B3@gmail.com> <5773435A.8080909@sydex.com> <5773F630.7050601@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6EC2EE14-CB6C-4AED-A1B1-B75397CAF973@gmail.com> On Jun 29, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 06/29/2016 08:46 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > >> I guess I should have mentioned that it's in a DIP 40, the size of a Z80 >> processor or the like. I wonder if it's some MPU for an RCA TV? Not sure, I >> do have a bunch of ICs for TV video circuits in this box of stuff. > > That seems likely--particularly in that the labeling is a house number, > not a standard commodity part. Probably has some special firmware inside. > > --Chuck > There was a particularly quaint part I found in the stash (or should I say a bunch of them)... that decodes an IR receiver signal with several dedicated high/low outputs for the different received functions (i.e. volume up/down, channels 1-20, etc). So there's a lot of TV parts in here. :) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 29 12:23:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 10:23:50 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> Message-ID: "The simulator has a few bugs and tends to start failing after a few minutes" Salto is quite old at this point. A lot of bugs were squashed when the code was ported into MAME. There is still a problem with the cursor, hopefully Josh can provide some pointers on how to fix that based on the work that he did developing his own simulator. On 6/29/16 8:33 AM, Curious Marc wrote: > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On the emulator, not yet on the real machine: > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 13:11:26 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 11:11:26 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > "The simulator has a few bugs and tends to start failing after a few > minutes" > > Salto is quite old at this point. A lot of bugs were squashed when the > code was ported into MAME. > > There is still a problem with the cursor, hopefully Josh can provide some > pointers on how to fix that > based on the work that he did developing his own simulator. > I'd be happy to lend assistance. I wasn't even aware that Salto had been merged into MAME until Al mentioned it to me a couple of months back. - Josh > > > On 6/29/16 8:33 AM, Curious Marc wrote: > > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On the > emulator, not yet on the real machine: > > > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html > > > > From shaunhalstead at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 14:58:32 2016 From: shaunhalstead at gmail.com (Shaun Halstead) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 14:58:32 -0500 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: <93e093b5-4793-9556-f225-5ebfc6b9d7f8@bitsavers.org> References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> <93e093b5-4793-9556-f225-5ebfc6b9d7f8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The 2920 has been discussed here before, about a year ago. I went through my back emails, but couldn't find the thread. The 2920 came in some flavor of Pertec, and SCSI via rear-mounted adapter. Yours appears to have the adapter interface. We ran several of the pertec version of these drives in our shop with Aviv unibus controllers. Our drives had basic diagnostic info inside the door, which was quite nice. Unfortunately, my memory is too sketchy at the moment to be helpful. I believe JP Hindin has the service docs (and one of the drives) from my shop, though they may be inaccessible at the moment. --Shaun On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 6/28/16 11:36 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > > > FWIW, there is one on eBay: > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Manual-For-Storage-Technology-Corp-2920-Tape-Subsystem-Maintenance-Manual-/301524483917 > > I bought it, and will take care of getting it scanned and on bitsavers. > I've got some other STC manuals in the queue too. > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 29 15:11:44 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 13:11:44 -0700 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> <93e093b5-4793-9556-f225-5ebfc6b9d7f8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6/29/16 12:58 PM, Shaun Halstead wrote: > I believe JP Hindin has the service docs (and one of the drives) from my > shop, though they may be inaccessible at the moment. > there is one version of the maint manual up under stc on bitsavers now. it turns out I have several other versions, and the manual for the formatter From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 29 15:22:46 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 13:22:46 -0700 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> <93e093b5-4793-9556-f225-5ebfc6b9d7f8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <30e02f9a-4603-51b0-e878-8675464105bc@bitsavers.org> Well, this is fun. Same part number on the manual, but different sets of interfaces defined. I found the one that has SCSI in it, and will try to get it uploaded later today. I don't appear to have the schematics for the SCSI version. On 6/29/16 1:11 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 6/29/16 12:58 PM, Shaun Halstead wrote: > >> I believe JP Hindin has the service docs (and one of the drives) from my >> shop, though they may be inaccessible at the moment. >> > > there is one version of the maint manual up under stc on bitsavers now. it turns > out I have several other versions, and the manual for the formatter > > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 17:45:34 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 16:45:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Tandy TRS0-Model 2000 Computer Monitor required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2016, Tothwolf wrote: > Does your system have the color video board installed? If not, you'll > only be able to use the monochrome monitor. I have a Model 2000 system > in the same state, no color video board fitted and in need of a > monochrome monitor. Doesn't look like the same type of system, but just for grins, I saw this TRS-80 Model 4 on my local Craigslist: http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5659348181.html And there are some other ones I've ogled recently. FYI, *none* of this stuff is anything I'm listing or want. I just found the survey interesting. IBM Laptop Model 5140 http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5642105225.html Commadore Colt http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5630744009.html Compaq Portable 2 http://denver.craigslist.org/syd/5640837590.html IBM Luggable model 8573-121 http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5642099738.html Love the Picks on this Apple IIc. He did they capture them WITH the IIc !? *joke* http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5659553197.html Oh, and my favorite "vintage" ad (yes someone kept one of these turds and you too can own a Packard Bell for the low-low price of $99.99!): Vintage Packard Bell Legend 2016 Intel i486 SX @ 33MHz - $100 http://denver.craigslist.org/syd/5635538373.html I wish I still had the link for the guy who sold a 360 about a year ago. It was a pretty nice rig, but I'm an IBM mainframe ignoramus. -Swift From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 29 17:58:42 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 15:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy TRS0-Model 2000 Computer Monitor required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tandy 2000 is an MS-DOS machine, but NOT PC-DOS. (720K 5.25", etc.) On Wed, 29 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > Doesn't look like the same type of system, but just for grins, I saw this > TRS-80 Model 4 on my local Craigslist: > http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5659348181.html TRS-80 Model 4 is replacement for the model 3. Z80, runs TRS-DOS of various sorts, but ALSO (unlike the 3) runs CP/M The Model 4P, if you can find one, is basically the same, but converted into a luggable. > IBM Laptop Model 5140 > http://denver.craigslist.org/sys/5642105225.html aka "Convertible". 8088 laptop with 720K 3.5" drives From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 18:19:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 19:19:53 -0400 Subject: Tough to Diagnose issue with PDP 11/40 CPU Message-ID: I thought I'd throw this one out to those who know more than I about the PDP 11/40 I am working with DaveR on vcfed.org/forum who asked me to run the following program as a test from the front panel: 20 - 220 ; IOT trap vector (New PC) 22 - 340 ; IOT trap vector (New PSW) 200 - 012706 ; MOV #600,SP 202 - 600 204 - 240 ; NOP 206 - 0 ; HALT 210 - 4 ; IOT 212 - 240 ; NOP 214 - 0 ; HALT 216 - 0 ; HALT 220 - 0 ; HALT 222 - 0 ; HALT START the program running from address 200. ---------------------- Problem is - The IOT step is bombing (?) and loops through the addresses: 204 206 210 200 204 206 210 200 endlessly. Anyone care to speculate which CPU card is the culprit? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jun 29 19:39:01 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 17:39:01 -0700 Subject: Tough to Diagnose issue with PDP 11/40 CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57746A25.5080301@fritzm.org> Hey Bill, Do you have a KM11 maintenance card? Guy Sotomayor here sells kits and/or assembled boards at http://www.shiresoft.com/products/km11/KM11%20Replica.html. I built one up myself based on a layout by Tom Uban at http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html The easiest way to get to the bottom of this since you have a nice, short, repro case would be to step through the microcode with a KM11 and see where it goes awry. From that point, its fairly easy to come of up a list of boards to swap and/or chips to check. If you want to go to the chip checking stage, you'll need some board extenders and a logic probe, they are pretty cheap. Or you can grab a surplus logic analyzer and some DIP clips off eBay if you want to get posh! I just went through this process with my 11/45, it was pretty educational. --FritzM. From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Wed Jun 29 22:08:52 2016 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:08:52 -0600 Subject: Tandy TRS0-Model 2000 Computer Monitor required - among other things... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: G'day Brendan - Time flies by so fast, eh? I am spending time training in aircraft in morning, flight sim's in afternoon, getting ready for my ATP exam next month. Been a fiasco at times learning that not all people/companies have same attitudes toward customers [and customer service] as you or I have. Miriam and I are having a great summer so far: she is doing athletic stuff (serious bicycling, swimming, gym work, art projects) with friends and household improvement projects, and I am doing flight [re-]training and ignoring her. She is still planning on another full school year (Aug-2016 through June-2017). And business-wise I am 3/4-time "out of the office" until August 1st when I will continue the client projects on the dark side. The Golden Bay option is very attractive to me but Miriam's schedule is still "in flux". I would guess a trial one-month period might be attractive rather than a full 3-month shot initially, perhaps 2017-Sept or 2017-Oct, or Nov or ???, and a $ deposit for reserving a time-slot with you might be appropriate. I'm sorry that I am so ... (indefinite?)... but I have only one oar in the water on the matter at this point. A "few years ago" (okay, decades ago) I had a complete TRS 2000 system (from my dad when he died) but donated it to one of his close friends. So the CLASSICMP newsgroup notification might generate the best response at this point. However, I will contact a few "low-profile" folks on my own that are not part of the usual e.groups - I never know. BTW, what/whose 'project' is this TRS for? Best you and yours - Bruce On 6/28/2016 9:22 PM, Brendan McNeill wrote: > Looking for a Tandy TRS-80 Model 2000 compute monitor. Wikipedia description here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_2000 > > The monochrome is model VM-1 Monitor, the colour is CM-1 Monitor. > > Many thanks > Brendan > > --------------//---------------- > brendan at mcneill.co.nz > +64 21 881 883 > > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 02:23:01 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:23:01 +0200 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> <93e093b5-4793-9556-f225-5ebfc6b9d7f8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 29 June 2016 at 22:11, Al Kossow wrote: > there is one version of the maint manual up under stc on bitsavers now. it turns > out I have several other versions, and the manual for the formatter I noticed there's now both an stc directory (with the 2920 manual) and a storagetek directory (with 4220 and 4280 manuals). Are they not the same company? The stc manual says 'storagetek' at least once inside (although it mostly uses the term 'Storage Technology Corporation', and one of the storagetek manuals for the 4220 (which has 'StorageTek' on every page) uses 'Storage Technology Corporation' on its address (last) page. Maybe it's easier to find this way, if the emphasis changed from 'STC' to 'StorageTek' over the years, is that why? Or are they really different companies? -Tor From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Thu Jun 30 00:31:07 2016 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 23:31:07 -0600 Subject: Tandy TRS0-Model 2000 Computer Monitor required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c5b1737-1dd5-056b-e79e-1cbe407ee3e8@Wild-Hare.com> (I am soooooo embarrassed... I have never accidentally sent a personal e.mail to a list before...) On 6/28/2016 9:22 PM, Brendan McNeill wrote: > Looking for a Tandy TRS-80 Model 2000 compute monitor. Wikipedia description here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_2000 > > The monochrome is model VM-1 Monitor, the colour is CM-1 Monitor. > > Many thanks > Brendan > > --------------//---------------- > brendan at mcneill.co.nz > +64 21 881 883 > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 30 07:21:22 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 05:21:22 -0700 Subject: Tough to Diagnose issue with PDP 11/40 CPU In-Reply-To: <57746A25.5080301@fritzm.org> References: <57746A25.5080301@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <57750EC2.6030706@bitsavers.org> On 6/29/16 5:39 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Hey Bill, > > Do you have a KM11 maintenance card? He posted on vcfed that it was a configured but missing KJ11 board. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 30 07:33:08 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 05:33:08 -0700 Subject: StorageTek 2920 9-track manual or instructions wanted In-Reply-To: References: <9b3b6c45-aad6-a122-7456-928d132cadc3@acc.umu.se> <93e093b5-4793-9556-f225-5ebfc6b9d7f8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <57751184.7050509@bitsavers.org> On 6/30/16 12:23 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 29 June 2016 at 22:11, Al Kossow wrote: > >> there is one version of the maint manual up under stc on bitsavers now. it turns >> out I have several other versions, and the manual for the formatter > > I noticed there's now both an stc directory (with the 2920 manual) and > a storagetek directory (with 4220 and 4280 manuals). Are they not the > same company? Yes, STC or "Storage Technology Corporation" was the earlier name. Generally, if there are name changes I use the earliest name but I didn't have any STC docs uploaded. I'll merge the two at some point. I'm working on scans from about six other STC products right now. To be pedantic, M4 Data / STC / StorageTek should all be under "Oracle" since Sun bought StorageTek, and DEC/Compaq should be under whatever "HP" is calling themselves this week, so I try to stick with the earliest company names. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 07:04:16 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:04:16 -0400 Subject: Tough to Diagnose issue with PDP 11/40 CPU In-Reply-To: References: <57746A25.5080301@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Jun 30, 2016 1:19 AM, "Fritz Mueller" wrote: > > Hey Bill, > > Do you have a KM11 maintenance card? Guy Sotomayor here sells kits and/or assembled boards at http://www.shiresoft.com/products/km11/KM11%20Replica.html. I built one up myself based on a layout by Tom Uban at http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html > > The easiest way to get to the bottom of this since you have a nice, short, repro case would be to step through the microcode with a KM11 and see where it goes awry. From that point, its fairly easy to come of up a list of boards to swap and/or chips to check. > > If you want to go to the chip checking stage, you'll need some board extenders and a logic probe, they are pretty cheap. Or you can grab a surplus logic analyzer and some DIP clips off eBay if you want to get posh! > > I just went through this process with my 11/45, it was pretty educational. > > --FritzM. Fritz, It turns out that I was missing the KJ11 my cpu cards were wired to expect. On the 11/40 this module is the little M7237 card for space E of slot 3. The machine in question did not come with this card, I assumed it was not needed until I checked the cpu jumpers and discovered my error. Should have done this 1st! It was impossible to run the CQKC diagnostic for 11/40 or 11/45 - http://www.vintagecomputer.net/temp/disassembly.txt Instructions using IOT in particular. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 30 08:58:13 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tough to Diagnose issue with PDP 11/40 CPU Message-ID: <20160630135813.883E118C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > The IOT step is bombing (?) and loops through the addresses: This may be a pointless question, but just to clear the ground first: the CPU is otherwise functioning reasonably well? E.g. it's not dropping the 020 bit when reading words from memory? (That would convert the '220' new PC in the vector to '200', and produce exactly the behaviour you are seeing.) If it is otherwise more or less working, so this is specific to IOT trap handling, I agree with Fritz - a KM11 would be a big help. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 09:03:24 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:03:24 -0400 Subject: Tough to Diagnose issue with PDP 11/40 CPU In-Reply-To: <20160630135813.883E118C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160630135813.883E118C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > The IOT step is bombing (?) and loops through the addresses: > > This may be a pointless question, but just to clear the ground first: the > CPU > is otherwise functioning reasonably well? E.g. it's not dropping the 020 > bit > when reading words from memory? (That would convert the '220' new PC in the > vector to '200', and produce exactly the behaviour you are seeing.) > > If it is otherwise more or less working, so this is specific to IOT trap > handling, I agree with Fritz - a KM11 would be a big help. > > Noel > It was not apparently dropping the 020 bit. The problem was a missing KJ11, I did not notice the CPU cards were wired for one. When I first got this 11/40 10 years ago it did not come with it installed, I *assumed* the machine as I got it was complete. My error. Lesson: Always check everything. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 30 09:21:05 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tough to Diagnose issue with PDP 11/40 CPU Message-ID: <20160630142105.645C318C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > The problem was a missing KJ11 Ah. Well, if you want to add one (I assume you've just re-jumpered the machine for the moment), I do have one we can copy (for the PC etch) - I'm assuming here that originals are now unobtainium. Also, if you have the KE11-E, but not the KE11-F (the former is a prereq for the latter), and would like one, I have one I have no use for (Unix doesn't use that version of the PDP-11 floating point), and would be willing to trade it for something I do have a use for. > My error. Lesson: Always check everything. Yes, always a good rule when dealing with recovered machines. I always take them apart and go through them completely, verifying all cables, etc from the original documentation. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 09:58:50 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:58:50 -0400 Subject: Tough to Diagnose issue with PDP 11/40 CPU In-Reply-To: <20160630142105.645C318C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160630142105.645C318C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > The problem was a missing KJ11 > > Ah. Well, if you want to add one (I assume you've just re-jumpered the > machine for the moment), I do have one we can copy (for the PC etch) - I'm > assuming here that originals are now unobtainium. > > Also, if you have the KE11-E, but not the KE11-F (the former is a prereq > for > the latter), and would like one, I have one I have no use for (Unix doesn't > use that version of the PDP-11 floating point), and would be willing to > trade > it for something I do have a use for. > > > My error. Lesson: Always check everything. > > Yes, always a good rule when dealing with recovered machines. I always take > them apart and go through them completely, verifying all cables, etc from > the > original documentation. > > Noel > Actually I had one, put it in, fixed problem. i.e. I kept the jumpers as-is, added the KJ11, system now works better in that I can load BASIC, diagnostics, etc. Does not mean the system is perfect though, but I have been able to move to the next point in the troubleshooting process - Goal to boot RT-11 from an RL02. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 12:29:18 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:29:18 -0400 Subject: re-initialize PDP 11 BASIC? Message-ID: I seem to remember there is an entry point that one can use to reinitialize BASIC already loaded into core memory, with the intention of re-answering the questions about MEMORY SIZE, Use SIN?, etc. Is this correct? I looked in the docs I have b ut I could not find it. If no one has this info I will have to disassemble, IN a HEX editor I see the questions are all at the end. -- Bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 30 13:13:58 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 14:13:58 -0400 Subject: re-initialize PDP 11 BASIC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <644C28A4-2452-484C-97B6-B13FED3E962E@comcast.net> Which Basic? RT11? paul > On Jun 30, 2016, at 1:29 PM, william degnan wrote: > > I seem to remember there is an entry point that one can use to reinitialize > BASIC already loaded into core memory, with the intention of re-answering > the questions about MEMORY SIZE, Use SIN?, etc. Is this correct? I looked > in the docs I have b ut I could not find it. If no one has this info I > will have to disassemble, IN a HEX editor I see the questions are all at > the end. > > -- Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 13:16:28 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 14:16:28 -0400 Subject: re-initialize PDP 11 BASIC? In-Reply-To: <644C28A4-2452-484C-97B6-B13FED3E962E@comcast.net> References: <644C28A4-2452-484C-97B6-B13FED3E962E@comcast.net> Message-ID: PAPERTAPE BASIC (pdp 11/20 era) On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 2:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Which Basic? RT11? > > paul > > > On Jun 30, 2016, at 1:29 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > > > I seem to remember there is an entry point that one can use to > reinitialize > > BASIC already loaded into core memory, with the intention of re-answering > > the questions about MEMORY SIZE, Use SIN?, etc. Is this correct? I > looked > > in the docs I have b ut I could not find it. If no one has this info I > > will have to disassemble, IN a HEX editor I see the questions are all at > > the end. > > > > -- Bill > > From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 13:17:46 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:17:46 -0500 Subject: Tandy TRS0-Model 2000 Computer Monitor required Message-ID: The 2000 isn't fully compatible either i thought since its one of the few PCs using the 80186 processor. When i acquired mine (also without a monitor and i think without keyboard or software ) i sort of accepted id likely not get it running. But perhaps the ?software is out ?there and less of a concern than i thought. I didn't know it was compatible with the cm-1 but i never checked what video card mine had. Still an interesting system historically. From other at oryx.us Thu Jun 30 13:33:19 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:33:19 -0500 Subject: old friend is slimming down the warehouse In-Reply-To: <576D81B1.2060904@oryx.us> References: <5tm0u87g9iflqekxl5ivrv4i.1466605071453@email.android.com> <1A9070A2-B60F-4961-A6BD-98D6B034DB78@nf6x.net> <6D325634-8812-4A97-A5C1-57668EAD7FE0@loomcom.com> <576D81B1.2060904@oryx.us> Message-ID: <577565EF.3010401@oryx.us> Sorry if I missed the reply describing these. What type of terminals were the AT&T terminals? Thanks, Jerry On 06/24/16 01:53 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Any more details on those AT&T terminals? > > I could use an AT&T 605 terminal for the 3b2 I hope to someday acquire, > obviously after Seth gets all he needs. :) > > Jerry > > > > > On 06/24/16 12:24 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: >> Seth, cont. ... and be careful what you wish for. I think that he may >> have a full 6'x6'x6' pallet of AT&T terminals for you :) >> >> TK >> >> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:23 PM, Todd Killingsworth < >> killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Seth - I specifically asked about 3B2 boxes when I saw the AT&T >>> terminals. Unfortunately, the guy has already cleared them out of his >>> warehouse. >>> >>> Todd Killingsworth >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >>> > >>>> I call dibs on any and all AT&T terminals and 3B2 stuff! :^) >>>> >>>> -Seth >>>> >>>> >>> From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Jun 30 14:20:44 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:20:44 -0700 Subject: re-initialize PDP 11 BASIC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7dbe42bb-8878-10dd-c2a6-6983162dc0d5@alum.mit.edu> On 6/30/2016 10:29 AM, william degnan wrote: > I seem to remember there is an entry point that one can use to reinitialize > BASIC already loaded into core memory, with the intention of re-answering > the questions about MEMORY SIZE, Use SIN?, etc. Is this correct? I looked > in the docs I have b ut I could not find it. If no one has this info I > will have to disassemble, IN a HEX editor I see the questions are all at > the end. > > -- Bill > After loading the basic papertape, start it at 16104 to get to the config dialog. Type a '?' in response to the *O prompt to get the long form dialog. Don *Downloads[504] pdp11 basic.ini** ** **PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: d8aafde7** **Disabling XQ** **load basic.pt** **run 16104** ** **PDP-11 BASIC, VERSION 007A** ***O ?** **DO YOU NEED THE EXTENDED FUNCTIONS?Y** **HIGH-SPEED READER/PUNCH?N** **SET UP THE EXTERNAL FUNCTION?N** **MEMORY?** **READY** **100 FOR I = 1 TO 10** **110 PRINT I,I*I,I*I*I** **120 NEXT I** **130 END** **RUN** ** 1 1 1** ** 2 4 8** ** 3 9 27** ** 4 16 64** ** 5 25 125** ** 6 36 216** ** 7 49 343** ** 8 64 512** ** 9 81 729** ** 10 100 1000** ** **STOP AT LINE 130** **READY** * From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 14:44:28 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 15:44:28 -0400 Subject: re-initialize PDP 11 BASIC? In-Reply-To: <7dbe42bb-8878-10dd-c2a6-6983162dc0d5@alum.mit.edu> References: <7dbe42bb-8878-10dd-c2a6-6983162dc0d5@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Don North wrote: > On 6/30/2016 10:29 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> I seem to remember there is an entry point that one can use to >> reinitialize >> BASIC already loaded into core memory, with the intention of re-answering >> the questions about MEMORY SIZE, Use SIN?, etc. Is this correct? I >> looked >> in the docs I have b ut I could not find it. If no one has this info I >> will have to disassemble, IN a HEX editor I see the questions are all at >> the end. >> >> -- Bill >> >> After loading the basic papertape, start it at 16104 to get to the config > dialog. > Type a '?' in response to the *O prompt to get the long form dialog. > > Don > > > *Downloads[504] pdp11 basic.ini** > ** > **PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: d8aafde7** > **Disabling XQ** > **load basic.pt** > **run 16104** > ** > **PDP-11 BASIC, VERSION 007A** > ***O ?** > **DO YOU NEED THE EXTENDED FUNCTIONS?Y** > **HIGH-SPEED READER/PUNCH?N** > **SET UP THE EXTERNAL FUNCTION?N** > **MEMORY?** > **READY** > **100 FOR I = 1 TO 10** > **110 PRINT I,I*I,I*I*I** > **120 NEXT I** > **130 END** > **RUN** > ** 1 1 1** > ** 2 4 8** > ** 3 9 27** > ** 4 16 64** > ** 5 25 125** > ** 6 36 216** > ** 7 49 343** > ** 8 64 512** > ** 9 81 729** > ** 10 100 1000** > ** > **STOP AT LINE 130** > **READY** > * > > Thanks. From the console M9312 L 16104 [enter] S [enter] perfect, works. Bill From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 15:14:45 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Building replacement panels for machines Message-ID: Just wanted to drop a line here- despite a shipping misfire, Rod Smallwood's replacement 8/e panel finally arrived yesterday and they look KICK ASS! Thanks, Rod! I'd love to start building artwork for the 11/40 panel- mine looks pretty sorry at the moment. Does anyone here have scans to get started with and best practices to use? Thanks, - Ian Sent from Outlook on iOS From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 18:28:08 2016 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:28:08 -0700 Subject: My Southern/Central California trip Message-ID: <39E27666-F163-4568-B424-9A16C0B55C06@yahoo.com> Hey, I'll be driving around southern and central California in a few weeks. Will be between LA and Yosemite Park. Does anyone have a garage or other pile of computers that you want thinned-out? I can come-by and take some of it off your hands. Thanks- Steve. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 30 18:35:46 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 00:35:46 +0100 Subject: Building replacement panels for machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2879e18b-ef12-d9d7-403e-4b4f3bcaaba8@btinternet.com> On 30/06/2016 21:14, Ian wrote: > Just wanted to drop a line here- despite a shipping misfire, Rod Smallwood's replacement 8/e panel finally arrived yesterday and they look KICK ASS! > > Thanks, Rod! > > I'd love to start building artwork for the 11/40 panel- mine looks pretty sorry at the moment. Does anyone here have scans to get started with and best practices to use? > > Thanks, > > - Ian > > Sent from Outlook on iOS Don't worry .. I have PDP-8/i and PDP-8/L in production. PDP-11's are next including. 11/40 Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 30 19:15:57 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 20:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Building replacement panels for machines Message-ID: <20160701001557.77B1318C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ian Finder > Does anyone here have scans to get started with I've provided Rod with a mechanical drawing, and a scan, of an 11/35 front panel (identical to the 11/40, except for the number). Here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html if you have any use for it. Noel From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jun 30 20:09:35 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 13:09:35 +1200 Subject: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac Message-ID: My classic/vintage computer activity has taken a back seat lately but I did find a machine I had on the "classic" list for some time. It's now part of the collection. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/imac.htm Some would say this is not vintage, classic or collectible (and so shouldn't be discussed here). However, these are all subjected terms which can be (and are!) argued about at length. To me it's a noteworthy model which had some impact on personal computing (notably by helping put Apple back in the game). Vintage? At only 18 years old perhaps not but a classic and collectible? As time goes by I would say yes. Terry (Tez) From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 23:08:23 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:08:23 -0600 Subject: Wanted: TI bubble memory application manual Message-ID: Specifically, "TIB0203 Magnetic Bubble Memory: System Application Manual", 1979 Libraries in Australia and China apparently have this, but unfortunately that doesn't help me much. I'd be interested in other documents relating to TI bubble memory. I already have "TIB0203 Magnetic-Bubble Memory and Associated Circuits", November 1978, and both the April 1977 and March 1980 editions of "TMS 9916 Bubble Memory Controller".