19 May
2024
19 May
'24
11:14 a.m.
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their thirties,
except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a Google engineer, a Microsoft
data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she was a recruiter), and a few others in
tech who are friends with the party host. I had several conversations about computer
origins, the early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about
computing history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 floppy or
early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else that they were familiar with. That
made me wonder if this is a sign that our living version of classical personal computing,
in which many of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in
the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging folks in this
newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty
myself) I sense that no other generation following this user group's generation will
ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in
computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of
personal computers? Thoughts?
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
19 May
19 May
11:38 a.m.
Younger folk are indeed more ignorant of where technology came from, but
i wouldn't say all of them are. I'm 32 years young and, well, i'm
posting this email on the mailing list, so that probably says enough.
Sure, the pool of those interested in old computer tech might be smaller
nowadays than it used to be, but then so is the pool of those interested
in Ford Model T's or gasoline powered Maytag washing machines, or steam
traction engines. But as long as stuff exists, there will be people
interested in tinkering with it. It's just that some tech is just not
relevant any more, so those exposed to it or used it in anger are going
to be fewer and far between.
It's OK to be concerned, but i don't think the retro computing scene is
as dire as some might make it out to be.
Cheers,
Josh Rice
On 19/05/2024 16:14, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote:
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering.
Everyone there was in their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway,
I met a Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she
was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the party host. I had
several conversations about computer origins, the early days of computing, its importance
in what we have today, and so on. What I found disappointing and saddening at the same
time is their utmost ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for
their recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else
that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our living
version of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this group witnessed
the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume
that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No
offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation following
this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses,
Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the
line for the most exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts?
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
11:57 a.m.
I am seeing this hobby growing beyond my own expectations, and a lot of
younger people are coming into it. Many people in their teens and twenties
are newly discovering the 8-bit computers with which I grew up. I had no
concept of computer history until I fell into the hobby, and was fascinated
to learn all about the computers that came before my time, including the
S-100s of the 1970s, then the mini-computers of the prior generation on
which the S-100 machines were based, and then the mainframes on which the
minicomputers were based. I was floored when I first learned that the
ENIAC was up and running in the 1940s--a digital computer in the 1940s!!
Today it seems almost obvious, because I've studied--basically
lived--computer history for so long now.
Like with any passion, you either get it or you don't. Out of the handful
of computer professionals you spoke to, maybe 1 of them will delve deeper
into the history and come away somewhat interested, perhaps inspired in
some way, but for the most part, their career does not depend on knowing
where it all started, just like a mechanic can know every last part of a
car without needing to know about Ford, the Dodge brothers, etc.
But as new people continue to find their way into this hobby, each will
find their niche, and as long as we today do a good job of preserving what
came before us to present up to the people who come after, there will at
least be that opportunity for newcomers to discover and explore the various
facets of computer history.
In short, yes, it will live on, thanks in part to us.
Sellam
On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 8:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering.
Everyone there was in their
thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a
Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I
think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with
the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the
early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost
ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their
recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely
nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a
sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many
of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in
the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging
folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to
anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation
following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M
s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is
there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of
personal computers? Thoughts?
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
12:10 p.m.
How much did you know about tub files or Telex exchanges at their age? Same deal.
You know about it because you were there, and you’re confusing knowledge of a specific era
with knowledge of the era immediately prior to one’s own.
Will people who weren’t alive for the computers of the 80s feel for them the way people
who remember them do? Of course not. They’ll feel that way about a generation newer, in
the same way that as a hobbyist you didn’t build your own edge-notched card system. We’re
already seeing Gen Z enthusiasts get really into late-90s off-brand beige Wintel boxen,
which is baffling to me as someone who lived through that era and thinks it’s about as
exciting as collecting Kleenex, but that’s their version of Millennials trying to revive
the 80s technofuture.
Remember that relative age and absolute age are not interchangeable, and consider whether
you celebrate the era you do because you picked it out of all the possibilities, or
because it’s what’s nostalgic for you based on when you were forming those early memories.
:)
—m.a
(the TL;dr is that any statement that hinges on “kids these days can’t $skill” is usually
not materially of much weight and is a lack of perspective on the speaker’s part. It was
said about your generation by your parents, and the one before that, and the one before
that, back to the first sharpened stone. The specifics change, but the phenomenon hasn’t
been new for twenty thousand years.
Don't get your mind get old. It’s a choice.)
On May 19, 2024, at 10:58, Sellam Abraham via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I am seeing this hobby growing beyond my own expectations, and a lot of
younger people are coming into it. Many people in their teens and twenties
are newly discovering the 8-bit computers with which I grew up. I had no
concept of computer history until I fell into the hobby, and was fascinated
to learn all about the computers that came before my time, including the
S-100s of the 1970s, then the mini-computers of the prior generation on
which the S-100 machines were based, and then the mainframes on which the
minicomputers were based. I was floored when I first learned that the
ENIAC was up and running in the 1940s--a digital computer in the 1940s!!
Today it seems almost obvious, because I've studied--basically
lived--computer history for so long now.
Like with any passion, you either get it or you don't. Out of the handful
of computer professionals you spoke to, maybe 1 of them will delve deeper
into the history and come away somewhat interested, perhaps inspired in
some way, but for the most part, their career does not depend on knowing
where it all started, just like a mechanic can know every last part of a
car without needing to know about Ford, the Dodge brothers, etc.
But as new people continue to find their way into this hobby, each will
find their niche, and as long as we today do a good job of preserving what
came before us to present up to the people who come after, there will at
least be that opportunity for newcomers to discover and explore the various
facets of computer history.
In short, yes, it will live on, thanks in part to us.
Sellam
> On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 8:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their
> thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a
> Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I
> think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with
> the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the
> early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
> What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost
> ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their
> recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely
> nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a
> sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many
> of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in
> the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging
> folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to
> anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation
> following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M
> s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is
> there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of
> personal computers? Thoughts?
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
>
>
7:39 p.m.
I hear you there!
I started out as a junior FE on the Univac 418 in 1971. Back then the
console was a modified TeleType and no problem seeing the characters as
the wove across the page at 10 cps!
Over my career, starting with 80x24 video terminals (VT05, VT52, VT100
and clones) I was excited as the video went MDA, CGA. VGA, XGA and all
the rest as resolutions increased.
Lately however I am decreasing the resolution so I can see the characters!
On the matter of the interest of the younger generation, I had 25 years
of teaching at the end of my career as a point of observation. I
frequently went into stories to explain how things that I taught matter
: To a question about why we need to learn about cycle times of machine
instructions, I recounted a story about a time i was called in to find
out why both 6800 processors that were monitoring SWR levels of multiple
25kW BDCST FM TXs were showing 'Computer Failure' after a lightning
strike on the CN Tower in Toronto. I looked at the source code,
calculated the cycle times, and worked out that the program was
executing exactly as planned - IIRC 13.5 ms for the loop. I put my
scope on the watchdog reset signal and saw exactly that time! (The
problem was that the designer was driving relays directly from TTL and
the system had never been powered down). Adding a transistor driver
solved the problem and stressed to the students the importance of
carrying knowledge of instruction times and basic electronics in their
toolbags!
From the above interaction, I got comments on my end-of-term faculty
feedback form ranging from 'he brings the theory to life' to 'he keeps
on going off into stories from the past that no longer matter'!
In one consulting contract i did, a young graduate was showing his
disdain for the past when another consultant pointed out that I had
already forgotten more than he will ever know about computer engineering!
Sometimes you can't teach them, I hope the remainder are able to carry
the torch!
As I get older (71 this year) I wonder if there are really enough people
in the world who care!
cheers,
Nigel Johnson
(Previously popularly known as Bill Johnson, MD of Emulex Canada 1984-1987)
On 2024-05-19 16:31, ben via cctalk wrote:
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
Don't get your mind get old. It’s a choice.
My mind is fine, it the eyes that are going.
Screens are getting bigger and text is getting smaller.
I must be dreaming that.
10:31 p.m.
On the matter of the interest of the younger
generation, I had 25 years
of teaching at the end of my career as a point of observation. I
frequently went into stories to explain how things that I taught matter
<snip>
As I get older (71 this year) I wonder if there are really enough people
in the world who care!
cheers,
Nigel Johnson
(Previously popularly known as Bill Johnson, MD of Emulex Canada 1984-1987)
Having run a computer museum for 5 years, I can tell you there will always
be young people who care about old tech, and who seek out knowledge. I
have had many elementary school kids show up who know quite obscure details
of systems sold decades before they were born. For the average visitor
however I learned really quick that you have to start off with something
that the person can connect with easily, before you get right into deep
ancient lore.
At some point computers as we know them (whatever your age) will be
forgotten. The first-person experiences and problem solving, the
real-world use. Like the archeologist who learns how to make ancient
human stone points for research purposes, but who has no actual reason to
actually hunt and prepare a meal with them. The context will be lost.
Even mundane things like printing, connecting with a modem, saving files
to external media.....fading away.
Bill
20 May
20 May
1:11 p.m.
I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum
in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not
limited to:
American Computer Museum
Computer History Museum
Computer Museum of America
Large Scale Systems Museum
Rhode Island Computer Museum
System Source Computer Museum
10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a
university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT.
https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comput…
There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive.
1:12 p.m.
Sorry I forgot to add Kennet Classic. I failed, my mistake.
On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:11 PM Christian Liendo <cliendo(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum
in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not
limited to:
American Computer Museum
Computer History Museum
Computer Museum of America
Large Scale Systems Museum
Rhode Island Computer Museum
System Source Computer Museum
10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a
university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT.
https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comput…
There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive.
1:25 p.m.
Lol! I don't care, our little non profit is but a wee dot on the map
compared with the well-funded giants.
On Mon, May 20, 2024, 1:12 PM Christian Liendo via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Sorry I forgot to add Kennet Classic. I failed, my
mistake.
On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:11 PM Christian Liendo <cliendo(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum
in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not
limited to:
American Computer Museum
Computer History Museum
Computer Museum of America
Large Scale Systems Museum
Rhode Island Computer Museum
System Source Computer Museum
10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a
university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT.
https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comput…
There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive.
1:41 p.m.
On 5/20/24 10:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>> American Computer Museum
>> Computer History Museum
>> Computer Museum of America
>> Large Scale Systems Museum
>> Rhode Island Computer Museum
>> System Source Computer Museum
Of course, there's the Living Computer Museum--oh, wait....
-Chuck
22 May
22 May
12:26 p.m.
On 5/20/24 10:25, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>> American Computer Museum
>> Computer History Museum
>> Computer Museum of America
>> Large Scale Systems Museum
>> Rhode Island Computer Museum
>> System Source Computer Museum
Of course, there's the Living Computer Museum--oh, wait....
...and wait...and wait...and....
$&#**^% Bean Counters!
20 May
20 May
1:42 p.m.
Kennet Classic is still important in getting history out to the public.
On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:25 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Lol! I don't care, our little non profit is but a wee dot on the map
compared with the well-funded giants.
On Mon, May 20, 2024, 1:12 PM Christian Liendo via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Sorry I forgot to add Kennet Classic. I failed, my mistake.
>
> On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:11 PM Christian Liendo <cliendo(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had only one museum
> > in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not
> > limited to:
> >
> > American Computer Museum
> > Computer History Museum
> > Computer Museum of America
> > Large Scale Systems Museum
> > Rhode Island Computer Museum
> > System Source Computer Museum
> >
> > 10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a
> > university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT.
> >
> >
> https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comput…
> >
> > There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive.
>
1:39 p.m.
Virtual museums as well, e.g.:
http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org
On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 1:28 PM Christian Liendo via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I see computer history slowly growing. Before you had
only one museum
in the United States and now you have multiple ones such as but not
limited to:
American Computer Museum
Computer History Museum
Computer Museum of America
Large Scale Systems Museum
Rhode Island Computer Museum
System Source Computer Museum
10 years ago I didn't see any computing history taught in a
university. Now I see it being taught at NJIT.
https://news.njit.edu/new-computer-science-elective-examines-history-comput…
There are people whose hard work is keeping computer history alive.
11:59 a.m.
On Sunday, May 19th, 2024 at 13:31, ben via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
My mind is fine, it the eyes that are going.
Screens are getting bigger and text is getting smaller.
I must be dreaming that.
HiDPI flatpanel displays definitely don't help with this. :/
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.
19 May
19 May
12:42 p.m.
On 5/19/24 10:57, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
I am seeing this hobby growing beyond my own
expectations, and a lot of
younger people are coming into it.
Yes, I have been to two Vintage Computer Fests at the
Chicago location. Most of the people there are fairly
young. There are some older guys demonstrating PDP-8's,
Data General Novas and similar vintage gear. Then TONS of
TRS-80s, Commodores, etc. I'm 73, by the way.
Jon
12:12 p.m.
What I find a little sad is that the accounting machine world has been
almost entirely ignored.
The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407
machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here
and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every
bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies
like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely
documented.
It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely
mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and
actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state
electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line
printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc.
Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column
punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stackers,
multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom
devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device
that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so
little documentation and examples remain today.
m
On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 11:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering.
Everyone there was in their
thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a
Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I
think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with
the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the
early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost
ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their
recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely
nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a
sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many
of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in
the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging
folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to
anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation
following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M
s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is
there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of
personal computers? Thoughts?
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
12:30 p.m.
On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 9:13 AM Mike Stein via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
What I find a little sad is that the accounting
machine world has been
almost entirely ignored.
The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407
machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here
and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every
bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies
like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely
documented.
It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely
mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and
actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state
electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line
printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc.
Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column
punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stackers,
multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom
devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device
that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so
little documentation and examples remain today.
Before my dreams were derailed, I was working on acquiring and assembling a
complete punched card data processing set up, just to experience it.
It would be fun to do such if I still had the resources and the time and
nothing else to do, but it takes a lot of time and resources, whereas an
old digital computer, even some of the big power hungry beasts of the 60s,
can still do something more interesting than just move paper around.
I would compare it to the reason why interest in old radios peaked and then
died out in the 2000s: all the people who had an interest in that stuff
passed on; and there's only so much an old radio can do. It can receive
and deliver an audio signal, poorly. That's an activity one might rather
enjoy on modern equipment. The same with old punched card equipment. It's
fun to run cards through it, but other than that, most people don't even
get what it's doing. It's doing one thing of the whole "computing"
process, poorly. There's no much interest in that, and only so many people
can devote the space, power, and maintenance to an entire punched card data
processing setup.
That being said, I believe the Haus zur Geschichte der IBM
Datenverarbeitung (House of the History of IBM Data Processing) in
Sindelfingen, Germany may still be demonstrating that very thing, or at
least they were when I visited in the mid-2000s with Hans Franke.
Here's an old article about it ==>
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/history-galore-at-ibm-museum-20050201-gdk…
Sellam
1:42 p.m.
You're right in that the IBM unit record batch EAM stuff is mainly
'only' interesting in a historical sense (although ISTR that there
were a (very) few games that you could play on them); they evolved
into the mainframes we know and love.
I find them interesting from a 'system' PoV: when you're in a room
with one of these it's like physically being inside a large computer;
there's a separate machine to sort data, another to merge files,
another to do calculations, one to update files, another to add,
subtract and print, etc., with the operator acting as the 'bus' by
carrying decks of cards (data) from one machine to the next. Gives you
a different perspective on data processing.
But the 'manual' accounting machines also evolved into 'real'
computers, but smaller and really no different from an S100 system
except for the physical configuration (e.g. the integrated
keyboard/printer). The later Burroughs L & B series had card cages and
removable cards about the same size and functions as S100, used
cassette, diskette and paper tape I/O, could communicated with remote
systems and could be programmed in machine language, assembler, report
generator or even high level languages such as Cobol. Yes, there was a
Lunar Lander program!
m
On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 12:30 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 9:13 AM Mike Stein via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
What I find a little sad is that the accounting
machine world has been
almost entirely ignored.
The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407
machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here
and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every
bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies
like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely
documented.
It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely
mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and
actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state
electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line
printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc.
Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column
punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stackers,
multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom
devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device
that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so
little documentation and examples remain today.
Before my dreams were derailed, I was working on acquiring and assembling a
complete punched card data processing set up, just to experience it.
It would be fun to do such if I still had the resources and the time and
nothing else to do, but it takes a lot of time and resources, whereas an
old digital computer, even some of the big power hungry beasts of the 60s,
can still do something more interesting than just move paper around.
I would compare it to the reason why interest in old radios peaked and then
died out in the 2000s: all the people who had an interest in that stuff
passed on; and there's only so much an old radio can do. It can receive
and deliver an audio signal, poorly. That's an activity one might rather
enjoy on modern equipment. The same with old punched card equipment. It's
fun to run cards through it, but other than that, most people don't even
get what it's doing. It's doing one thing of the whole "computing"
process, poorly. There's no much interest in that, and only so many people
can devote the space, power, and maintenance to an entire punched card data
processing setup.
That being said, I believe the Haus zur Geschichte der IBM
Datenverarbeitung (House of the History of IBM Data Processing) in
Sindelfingen, Germany may still be demonstrating that very thing, or at
least they were when I visited in the mid-2000s with Hans Franke.
Here's an old article about it ==>
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/history-galore-at-ibm-museum-20050201-gdk…
Sellam 
12:31 p.m.
On 5/19/2024 11:14 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote:
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering.
Everyone there was in their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway,
I met a Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she
was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the party host. I had
several conversations about computer origins, the early days of computing, its importance
in what we have today, and so on. What I found disappointing and saddening at the same
time is their utmost ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for
their recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else
that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our living
version of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this group witnessed
the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume
that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No
offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation following
this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses,
Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the
line for the most exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts?
I'm 73. How do you think I feel. I worked for 25 years in a Computer
Science Department of a University and not only did they not teach any
of the history. They mostly didn't know it themselves anyway. I kept
PDP-11's and Vaxen in the department for the students to see and, if
they wished, use but eventually I was told it was wasting space and
when they moved the department to the new science building there was
no space allocated for anything but the bare minimum of equipment.
bill
12:54 p.m.
In my post about the accounting machine era I forgot to mention that
of course they were all programmable; the mechanical versions used
different length pins, sometimes custom made with a special tool, that
went into a 'magazine' to define the various columns and the
operations to be performed there; as electronics started to take over,
patch panels full of jumper wires (just like IBM's EAM panels)
appeared, and finally 'soft' programming appeared with assemblers,
report generators and 'high' level languages cross-compiled on larger
systems.
Programs were loaded by inserting a 'magazine' (usually about 30" long
and weighing about 10 lbs.), inserting a patch panel, or the 'modern
way' from punched cards*, paper tape, magnetic cards, mag tape or
cassette, diskette or even remotely.
*Another innovation was the 'Edge punched card', a card normally the
size of an 80 column Hollerith card but with 8-column paper tape
punched holes along the edge so it could be read with a PPT reader.
A shame that there isn't a video anywhere of an operator entering data
into a Burroughs L9000 and then processing it with 4 cassettes
spinning back and forth like their big brothers, automatically feeding
ledger cards through the console and the external high-speed reader,
printing a log and reports on the dual console printer and the
external high-speed printer, maybe sending summary data to a remote
system etc., while the operator takes a coffee break.
BTW, AFAIK the Burroughs B80 and B90 were the last machines of this
class and the only ones with (8") diskette drives; does anyone know of
any later ones?
m
On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 11:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their thirties,
except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a Google engineer, a Microsoft
data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she was a recruiter), and a few others in
tech who are friends with the party host. I had several conversations about computer
origins, the early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about
computing history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 floppy or
early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else that they were familiar with. That
made me wonder if this is a sign that our living version of classical personal computing,
in which many of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in
the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging folks in this
newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty
myself) I sense that no other generation following this user group's generation will
ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in
computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of
personal computers? Thoughts?
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
1:38 p.m.
On May 19, 2024, at 11:14 AM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their thirties,
except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a Google engineer, a Microsoft
data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she was a recruiter), and a few others in
tech who are friends with the party host. I had several conversations about computer
origins, the early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about
computing history or even early computers. ...
I don't find this very surprising. It's just a special case of the fact that few
young people know much about history. And the fact that they know so little about the
country's history is a far more serious matter than that they know so little about the
history of computing.
That said, I've run into a number of young people who definitely are interested. On
the PLATO system at Cyber1.org there are a number of them. One is a CS professor who
teaches a course about computer games, and has brought the PLATO multi-user games that
date back to the 1970s into that class. Another is a small business tech owner/engineer
who has made himself into one of the world's top experts on the PLATO plasma terminals
-- which are older than he is.
paul
4:26 p.m.
On 2024-05-19 9:14 a.m., Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote:
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering.
Everyone there was in their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway,
I met a Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she
was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the party host. I had
several conversations about computer origins, the early days of computing, its importance
in what we have today, and so on. What I found disappointing and saddening at the same
time is their utmost ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for
their recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else
that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our living
version of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this group witnessed
the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume
that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No
offense to anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation following
this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses,
Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of the
line for the most exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts?
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
Well with the internet I have been finding a lot more about behind the
history of the 1970's.
The West Coast made the chips, and the East coast made the computers,
while here in Canada,We just got to watch computers on TV with the
blinking lights back then and the few chip sold by Radio Shack.
Back then you could get to build a computer of some kind, on the kitchen
table, as the knowledge was available, and parts Thu the hole. People
are going retro simply because modern computers are too complex with
documentation known to a few.
The Z80 may be long gone, but I am sure lots of 8080's are sill
for sale on ebay.
I wanted to build a computer in my teens, and now I have time and the
money. Looking back in time I see how bad the tech was back the for the
average Joe. BASIC to rot your brain. 4K ram so you never learned how
to comment stuff. Word lengths 4,8,16 so you spent all your time shoe
horning a stuff to fit. Parts costing a arm and a leg, and three weeks
for delivery.
(Today parts from China 95 cents, 2 months delivery and arm and leg for
shipping).
My latest design on paper, requires 74LSXX,74H74,CY7C122 (25ns 256x4
ram),13 mhz osc, and lots of cmos 22V10's.A 18 bit serial cpu,
with a memory cycle time of 2.25 uS. I am still working on my
personal computer.
Who knows,It might even work, but first the EMULATOR
and cross assembler.
Ben.
7:10 p.m.
My first emulator was for the Coleco ADAM back in the 1990’s. I bought the
ADAM in 1984 and watched a community grow up around it in various locations
across Canada and the US. The ADAM-con conventions began in 1989 in
Orlando. Emulation began in the 1990’s as a response to the continued
interest in keeping the 8-bit world going.
Happy computing,
Murray 🙂
On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 4:33 PM ben via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 2024-05-19 9:14 a.m., Tarek Hoteit via cctalk
wrote:
A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering.
Everyone there was in
their thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a
Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I
think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with
the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the
early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost
ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their
recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely
nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a
sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many
of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in
the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging
folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to
anyone. I am turning fifty myself) I sense that no other generation
following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M
s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is
there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of
personal computers? Thoughts?
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
Well with the internet I have been finding a lot more about behind the
history of the 1970's.
The West Coast made the chips, and the East coast made the computers,
while here in Canada,We just got to watch computers on TV with the
blinking lights back then and the few chip sold by Radio Shack.
Back then you could get to build a computer of some kind, on the kitchen
table, as the knowledge was available, and parts Thu the hole. People
are going retro simply because modern computers are too complex with
documentation known to a few.
The Z80 may be long gone, but I am sure lots of 8080's are sill
for sale on ebay.
I wanted to build a computer in my teens, and now I have time and the
money. Looking back in time I see how bad the tech was back the for the
average Joe. BASIC to rot your brain. 4K ram so you never learned how
to comment stuff. Word lengths 4,8,16 so you spent all your time shoe
horning a stuff to fit. Parts costing a arm and a leg, and three weeks
for delivery.
(Today parts from China 95 cents, 2 months delivery and arm and leg for
shipping).
My latest design on paper, requires 74LSXX,74H74,CY7C122 (25ns 256x4
ram),13 mhz osc, and lots of cmos 22V10's.A 18 bit serial cpu,
with a memory cycle time of 2.25 uS. I am still working on my
personal computer.
Who knows,It might even work, but first the EMULATOR
and cross assembler.
Ben.
11
days inactive
14
days old
23 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
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ben -
Bill Degnan -
Bill Gunshannon -
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Chuck Guzis -
Jon Elson -
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Kevin Jordan -
mark audacity romberg -
Mike Stein -
Murray McCullough -
Nigel Johnson Ham -
Paul Koning -
Rick Bensene -
Sellam Abraham -
Tarek Hoteit -
The Doctor